Which rifle for BP?

[DeaconKC]

Okay guys, gonna try loading some APP and try BP loading.  Okay, which rifle of these two will play better with BP, my Rossi 92 in .357 Magnum or the Uberti 1873 in .45 Colt? Rifling, cleaning, etc?

[Sedalia Dave]

357 Mag will have significantly less blow by than 45 colt.  Load your 357s with enough 3F APP to just below the base of the bullet.

Clean your rifle and lube with a BP compatible lube. Your 92 will easily run 18 stages over 3 days with just little Ballistol sprayed in the action at the end of the day followed by a wipe down of the outside.

[Sedalia Dave]

To clean flush the action and barrel with hot water.  I Pull a Remington Squeeg-E through the bore and follow up with a wet patch.
Spray some Ballistol into the action and cycle a few times. Wipe down and you are good to go.

Every 3 to 6 months do a complete tear down and regrease the internals.

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[hellgate]

I don't have a '73 so no advice there. I've been shooting a Rossi '92 since 1992 in SASS matches. If you use real gunpowder (BP) you will either need the Snakebite "greasewagon" bullet lubed with a BP lube or some other generous lube grooved bullet like the Lyman 358311 (that I use) and two discs of medium brood core bees wax under the bullet. That load will shoot all day but shoots a 5-6" group @50yds. Accurate enough for SASS distances. If you don't do the beeswax discs then you need to do a wet swab "pull through" to prevent the last 4-6" of barrel from fouling after about each 10 shots (20" barrel). Plan on the pull cord splatting against your sleeve permanently instilling a black smudge.

I have used various subs (with the exception of Pyrodex due to its corrosiveness): Black Canyon, Black Mag 3, APP, Cleanshot, Clearshot, 777, and Black MZ. All of those listed work just fine with standard smokeless lubes. All of them grouped into 1.5" @50 yds. All except 777 produce about the same velocity as real BP. The 777 (I use 3f size) shoot the bullets about 1/3 faster than all the rest. The manufacturer recommends to only use FFg size 777 for cartridges but I had already worked up the load befroe reading the warning and figured the 357 mag is a pretty high intensity cartridge so I haven't worried about pressure problems. YMMV. Now I only use the other subs in 38 SPL pistols when I want light recoil. I will use any 150-158gr lead bullet and 15 grains (weighed) in the 357 and crimped in.

The Rossis are more particular about cartridge overall length whitch will vary with the shape of the bullet so I always work up a load by first finding the best OAL for any particular bullet. If the bullet causes hiccups then I won't use it. You need to start with extra long dummy rounds (~5), run them through the gun and seat the bullets a couple thou deeper and run them through again until they look too short and start hiccupping again. Write down the OALs as you do this. You will find the sweet spot and that is the OAL for that bullet.

[Cliff Fendley]

Sell them both and buy a 44-40.

[Mako]

Okay guys, gonna try loading some APP and try BP loading.  Okay, which rifle of these two will play better with BP, my Rossi 92 in .357 Magnum or the Uberti 1873 in .45 Colt? Rifling, cleaning, etc?

Do you plan on shooting .357 or .38 spl? I'm not sure how well the Rossi feeds the .38 spl.  The '73 is the king of the Cowboy match guns, no ramp to go up the carrier lifts any bullet shape straight up and the bolt pushes it straight in. I personally think it is easier to clean a '66 or '73.  You pull the side plates and it is all right there. Dave, is right about blow by unless you load it full and compress it a bit.  You need that straight wall case to obdurate a bit to seal, but a lot of cowboys use the .45.  I have a couple of rifles in .38 spl. a Marlin '94  Cowboy Competition (actually chambered in .38 Spl not .357) and a Model '66 Yellowboy. 

I load my .38s with as much powder as I can compress under a 160 gr Snake Bite Grease Wagon and they expand well and seal the chamber. That bullet has a long ogive and actually shoots well in Marlins and '92 pattern rifles because of the length.  (Hellgate posted while I was typing this, it is exactly what I am saying) Short and stumpy sometimes has problems in rifles with ramps (Marlin/Winchester) I also have a couple of .44 Spl rifles (one's a carbine shooting .44 Russian)  Those are straight wall cases and once again I put as much powder as I can cram in under a 200 Grain Mav Dutchman and they obdurate and seal as well, even the .44 Russian.  I know people also do the same with .45 Cowboy in '66s and '73s with the carrier you have to add to use the shorter cartridge.  I have that carrier in my '66 that shoots .44 Russian.

The .44 WCF or .38 WCF do about the best, the bottleneck cases seal even better than straight walls.

I will tell you this though, I get more residue back in the action from racking the action as fast as I can shoot than I ever do on the range taking my time between shots.  There are speckles all over my '66s from black powder still smoking as I eject shells during a match.  I get as little as I do with my original Win 73 in .44 WCF when I am taking my time between shots (no hot unburned  powder flying...)

Check these images out below, this is a .38 Spl Short Rifle:

How they sell it...
see first image below

This is how it looks when you use them hard and even clean them (not polish them).
See second image below

And it is clean, this is the inside.
See third image

~Mako

[River City John]

Best BP rifles are any that take a necked cartridge, - .32-20, .38-40, .44-40.

But, your straight walled case then I would go with the .357.

[DeaconKC]

My 92 is not as fussy on 38 Special cases as a previous one, so using a 158 grain bullet feeds well. I have never shot bunnyphart loads, so I would use a proper load. Considering trying the 38s as my BP set up as I just got a stainless Vaquero and have a pair of Conversions to handle the BP stuff.

[Sedalia Dave]

With a 20" barrel I have found no need for lube cookies under the bullet.

I am shooting up the last of my vintage Black Dawg Cartridge Co 357s and 38 specials. Neither of which are using lube cookies or Big Lube bullets.

When I had a 92 with a 24" barrel those same cartridges ran out of lube at the 21.5" mark. A wet patch between stages was all I needed to keep it going.

[Sedalia Dave]

I will tell you this though, I get more residue back in the action from racking the action as fast as I can shoot than I ever do on the range taking my time between shots.  There are speckles all over my '66s from black powder still smoking as I eject shells during a match.  I get as little as I do with my original Win 73 in .44 WCF when I am taking my time between shots (no hot unburned  powder flying...)

~Mako

My 1860 Henry and 66 both wear that patina on the receiver.

Here is a picture of still burning powder coming out of my shot shells as they are ejected from my 1887

[Mako]

Deacon,
Have you ever annealed cases?  I have annealed the mouths of my my .38s and .44 Russians to help with the obturation upon firing and to allow me to put hard crimps on the bullets without getting cracks on the mouth.  I have not performed designed experiments to determine how well this works for straight wall pistol cases but i have done it for some time for my .308, .300 blackout, .30-06 brass and even my better loads in 5.56.  I definitely need it on my match .308 and '06 loads for my semi-auto rifles.

The "problem" with heavier cases like the .45 Colt is getting adequate expansion at BP or BP substitute pressures.  .38 spl. cases are a bit thinner and I do it mainly because I have an auto annealer I built, and I can just load up the hopper. The .44 Spl feeds okay but the shorter .44 Russian need to have the caseS added one by one to the drum and a hundred cases eats up almost an hour with a 4 second anneal, the handloading loading is the time adder.

You will find .45 Colt brass runs all over the place.  Some as thin as .012" but John Boy was measuring some time back in an earlier discussion about the appropriateness of .45 Colt brass with BP and reported from about .019" to .024" inches of wall thickness at the mouth area down about 5/16ths" into the case on 12 different brands.  The .38s are much thinner running about .010"-.012", if you use .38 brass that has a straighter wall  made expressly for wadcutters you will get .010" for a depth of about .5".  You can tell those match cases by the cannelure about midway down the case.  I have a bunch because I used to build PPC revolvers and hoard the straight wall brass for long hollow base wad cutters.

This is all wadcutter brass, the 2nd, 4th and 5th are for hollow base wadcutters.



So, .38 is thinner walled and with well crimped loads (and heavier bullets) builds enough pressure to swell that case and seal the chamber as well as a Remington or Win .44-40 case in my experience. BUT, Starline makes a very thin walled (at the mouth) of about .0065" which seals exceptionally well.  They make that brass for people who own original .73s like mine which shoot the Ø.027" bullets better than Ø.028" bullets .  That thin walled brass works very well for Black Powder loads in modern reproductions.  Now don't get the idea that all of your sealing takes place at the mouth, the neck helps too.

I have been shooting TOP BRASS .44 Russian Cases and they are even thinner than my Starline .44 Russian and .44 Special cases.  they run around .010" to .011" at the mouth.  They were a bit hard and the annealing helped with that.  Starline Brass is always annealed when I get it and doesn't work harden much with BP load unless you have a an aggressive sizing die.  However a HARD crimp does work the brass and it needs to be annealed every 6 or so reloads if you don't want any splits.  I have some .44 spl brass I have been using for over 25 years and it looks almost new when I tumble polish it.  (I actually have match .308 brass I have had for over 40 years and my loses are from either literally losing it, or if I scrap it when it gets dented.)

~Mako

[DeaconKC]

Sedalia Dave, great picture! I do not anneal, hopefully won't ever need to. One of the reasons I run good stout loads in my guns.
Mako, thank you for the most timely case information. I have literally thousands of .38 Special cases [mostly once-fired] and this information gives me hope for BP. I think using a 150-158 grain RNFP with a strong  APP load will be my starting point for going this route.
Thank you to ALL who have given me much needed and appreciated insight!

[litl rooster]

Sell them both and buy a 44-40.

Yes

[Abilene]

A .38 full of BP will never be accused of being a bunnyphart load 

[King Medallion]

Sell them both and buy a 44-40.

^^^
This. BP rifles simply must have a dash in the caliber.

[Mako]

A .38 full of BP will never be accused of being a bunnyphart load 

Abilene,
That is very true.  I have had pardners on the posse I was shooting with who were picking up spent brass come to the unloading table apologizing for not finding any of my rifle brass when I was shooting a .38 Spl when I tell them I was shooting a .38, they say, "oh, well I found these .38 cases", and I say "that's mine".   The BOOM from a .38 is impressive to those who shoot smokiless powder. Of course there is fire and SMOKE too.  I get a good plume of fire from my 20" and 19" .38 barrels.

Truth be told, the .44 Russian Case and the .38 spl have almost identical volumes., I usually leave the powder measure with the same adjustment for .38 spl and .44 Russian with coarser powders like 2F, reenactor, skirmish (floor sweepings) or if I got goofy and loaded 1F.  I can get more good quality 3F under a 200 grain in a .44 Russian than a 160 gr .38 Snake Bite.  However the heavier .44 bullet recoils a more and smacks the steel harder.

Many times I have had spectators come over to the unloading table (where I am charging my cap guns with ball and powder again) and ask what I am shooting.  You know how it is, we tend to attract people who are curious when they see the fire and smoke.  They almost always ask if my rifle is a .45, when I tell them it is a .38 spl, they are almost disbelieving because they have been watching other shooters with Rugers shooting 105 grain .38 spl loads that have a rainbow trajectory out to the target 30 feet away.  But, if was shooting one of my .44 rifles  they just nod and say, "it figures".  They really have no idea.  Now the guys shooting the 38gr of BP out of a .45 with a 250gr bullet mainly make more smoke., but there is a deeper boom and more fire.

Plus bunnypharts don't smell like burning sulfur...well unless they are a VERY large bunny.

~Mako

[Mako]

^^^
This. BP rifles simply must have a dash in the caliber.

Mine, don't...  I have an original '73 made in 1886 that is a .44 WCF.    I can show you a picture of the  "44 Cal" marking on the bottom of the carrier.

In fact I don't think there was ever a '73 ever produced in the 19th century that wasn't marked as either a 44 Cal, 38 Cal, 32 Cal or even 22 Cal.  No dashes there (maybe they didn't know better...)

I phun'n you... I know what you're trying to say.

But my reproductions are either .44 Spl., 44 Russian or .38 Spl and at least one of my 38s have actually never had one round of smokeless powder ever through it unless it was fired at the factory.  I don't ever "poo poo" someone trying to shoot BP (even if they are committing the sacrilege of shooting a '73 chambered for .45 Colt or a Henry chambered in "44-40" or .45 Colt)  I would encourage them to shoot anything they had (even .32 H&R) with the REAL POWDER.

  Mako

[DeaconKC]

I certainly do appreciate the offers from you fine folks to buy me guns in a Dash cartridge, it is awfully thoughtful of you.

[Griff]

All these newbies and new fangled ideas... I've been shooting the same 1873 Uberti 24-¼" rifle in 45 Colt since 1987.  BP is not a disadvantage.  I've sanded down the sides of the carrier to give me at least .015-.020" clearance on both sides and can shoot a 3 day match (12 stages) without interruption.  I load ~25 grains of Goex "Cartridge" or 2F behind a 225 grain bullet of wheel weights from an RCBS 45-225-CAS mold (truncated cone)... Neither do I anneal cases, unless I'm shooting APP, it seems to foul a little bit more than real BP... but I haven't used enough to say that with the utmost confidence.  As I've used APP mostly in C45S cases. 

[Mako]

All these newbies and new fangled ideas...

Who are the newbies and what are the new ideas?

~Mako