Miroku 73 carbine questions

[Malamute]

 Does anyone have a comprehensive list of the variations of the 73 carbine that Miroku has made, and/or is going to make? They have a 16" trapper type carbine in 357, which greatly interests me, but could be swayed by a 20" carbine in the came chambering.

 Have they done and rifles with shotgun butts yet? The crescents don't work well for me.

[Sloan Dodgy]

Winchester/Miroku is making a model marketed only through Navy Arms that has a shotgun butt (I am not a fan of crescent buttplates either), but the Navy Arms version is dolled up and pretty expensive.  You can see them on the Navy Arms web site and also on Buffalo Arms web site.

[Malamute]

 Thanks. Ive seen them online, but they are a bit out of my price range. If I had one of the crescent butt rifles I guess I could re-shape the buttplate with much less toe and get the stock worked down to match, but I'm getting tired of everything being a project. If they make a standard grade with a shotgun butt Id consider a rifle, but my actual preference is carbines for anything I'll use much.

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[Coffinmaker]

I don't personally think we are going to see a proliferation of variations from Miroku.  The Winchester marque jumped into CAS a little late.  Uberti pretty much has had the ALL the market share.  Winchester, while selling guns, really doesn't have the volume to offer much in the way of options.  Besides, Projects are FUN!!

Coffinmaker

[Ranch 13]

It's to bad in a way that the Winchester isn't catching on with the CAS crowd. I got mine cheaper than a Uberti, and comparing it to my Uberti the Winchester is a much better finished rifle, inside and out.
 But with that said, there is enough demand out there for the Winchesters that if you find one, best to grab it up, it won't be there long.

[Cliff Fendley]

The problem with using them in CAS with NCOWS is at least the early ones we looked at did not have the correct lever stroke to the originals and since short strokes arent allowed in our rules we couldn't allow them. Otherwise how do you draw the line on short strokes?

That said I looked at a couple at the NRA show in the Winchester display that didn't seem to have an obviously shorter stroke so I'm wanting to do a little more research to find out what the deal is on that.

I had looked at one at my local dealer when they first came out and compared it to a uberti and original winchester and found the Miroku had a shorter stroke, something on the order of the first gen short strokes.

They are nicely made rifles for sure, the firing pin is an ugly mess with the safety stuff but I understand that can be replaced.

I'm still considering buying one even if I don't use it for CAS it would be fun to play with. Every Miroku rifle I've owned has been great, I hunt with a Browning A-Bolt.

[Malamute]

 RE the short stroke matter, could the Miroku lever or carrier arm be worked back to make the correct angle of lever stroke to work in the shoots? It would seem relatively simple if I'm understanding how they do the short stroke work.

 Thanks for the comments so far.

[Coffinmaker]

Some Caveats.  The Miroku made '73 is a very well made rifle.  It is NOT a reproduction of a Winchester '73.  I does look just like one on the outside and functions just like one, but the gun is not a reproduction nor a "clone" (I hate that term).

I don't play NCOWS.  Never have, so I can't speak for there decision making process.  I have no idea what drives their unacceptance of the Miroku '73.  Except, as I pointed out above, it is NOT a reproduction of the original.  It has been re-engineered.

Stroke length.  Yes.  the throw of the lever could be altered to more closely match the original sample example.  But, .... why bother.  One method would probably be considered an external modification and dis-allowed (altering the lever).  The other method, might also be considered an illegal mod as well (altering the Carrier Block Arm).  It may well be, no matter what is done to alter the lever throw, NCOWS might still disallow the rifle on the basis, it's not a copy of the original, nor a close enough copy of the accepted Uberti.

Coffinmaker

[Cliff Fendley]

What drove the unacceptance is because the rules say no short strokes and there have been other Uberti rifle offered in the past with a factory short stroke that was put on the unapproved list. Therefore it wouldn't have been fair to allow this one. The idea is to keep the shooting experience comparable to what it could have been like in the 19th century.

Personally I think it's a shame since they are very fine rifles but I'm one that supported putting it on the unapproved list because of the lever throw angle. I just felt like it wouldn't be approved if an importer offered it made by Uberti with the altered action so I couldn't vote to approve it just because it says Winchester on it.

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Cliff.  I can buy that.  It even makes good sense.

It is my understanding, one can perform or have performed, action work to make the rifle more "user friendly."  Is that correct??

Coffinmaker

[Major 2]

Here is the comparison I made at the time ....I was the seated NCOWS National Judge and made my recommendation....
The Congress then voted to Disapprove it .

I was happy to See Winchester join the fray, as I was with Henry Repeating Arms H011 1860 Henry.

Rearmost - a Uberti with 3rd Gen short stroke

Middle - the then new Miroku made '73

in front - an original 73 which matches my Uberti 73 short Rifle

the shorter stroke is clearly seen

[Malamute]

 That all makes sense in that context.

 My interest lies in a fun shooter and utility carbine, so the lever stroke doesn't come into consideration.

[Cliff Fendley]

Hey Cliff.  I can buy that.  It even makes good sense.

It is my understanding, one can perform or have performed, action work to make the rifle more "user friendly."  Is that correct??

Coffinmaker

Yes a lot of folks lighten the springs and smooth them up to make them more user friendly but I find the biggest advantage to an action job is so the guns don't chew themselves up with all the rough parts and heavy springs. At our club the targets are much farther than SASS so you have to slow down and take aim so I'm not really sure a short stroke would have much advantage anyway. Still that is the rules.

[Coffinmaker]

Cliff,

I built competition Toggle Link Rifles for somewhere between 16 and 20 years.  I tried to explain to a lot of my "New to The Game" customers, the advantages and disadvantages of opting for a "Short Stroke."  There are only about 15% of CAS shooters who are actually capable of taking advantage of the latest and greatest Short Stroke Technology.  For the vast majority of shooters, it is no real advantage and just added to my bottom line.

The true "Biggest Bang for the Buck" is a real quality "Action Job."  You are also entirely correct, that changing out the OEM springs is almost a "must" for the longevity of the gun.  OEM lever side springs and Main Springs cause an enormous amount of unnecessary wear to the moving parts.  Reducing the Springs and judicious rubbin-n-buffin will make the rifle amazingly fast and smooth.  Not quick.  Fast.  There is a difference.  This isn't just true of Toggle Rifles either.  Replacing the Gawd Awful ejector spring, Main Spring and Lever Latch spring in a '92 makes a HUGE difference.

There are those though, who feel they just absolutely must have the latest and greatest high tech gizmo for whiz bang operation, to shave that last hundredth of a second off their time.  I use to get paid very well indeed to do just that.  Dong get me wrong, I do feel the Short Stroke is a very good thing to make a rifle more user friendly.  There are other options.

Coffinmaker

PS:  In a competition rifle, ALL the the key action takes place at the FRONT of the lever.  NOT out at the back of the lever.  Take a look at the Photo from Major 2, notice very small difference down at the front of the lever.  Interesting ......No??

[Pettifogger]

One caveat for the "Winchester" vs. the Uberti springs.  The current Winchester springs are NOTHING like the Uberti springs.  They are not nearly as thick, not nearly as stiff and not nearly as arched as the Uberti springs.  In fact, the Uberti springs look much more like original Winchester springs than the current reproduction.  The clone springs aren't bad out-of-the-box compared to the Uberti springs.  There are no aftermarket replacement springs for the new Winchester and getting stock springs if you screw up the originals is difficult.  A TINY bit of grinding on the new Wichester springs and they can be ruined so use extreme caution trying to tune them.  Or just leave them alone if you have not had experience with the new style springs.

[OklaTom]

What drove the unacceptance is because the rules say no short strokes and there have been other Uberti rifle offered in the past with a factory short stroke that was put on the unapproved list. Therefore it wouldn't have been fair to allow this one. The idea is to keep the shooting experience comparable to what it could have been like in the 19th century.

Personally I think it's a shame since they are very fine rifles but I'm one that supported putting it on the unapproved list because of the lever throw angle. I just felt like it wouldn't be approved if an importer offered it made by Uberti with the altered action so I couldn't vote to approve it just because it says Winchester on it.

Here is the deal for real.  Folks want to say it is not a replica.  Yet it is.  It is not made by Winchester.  It is made by Mikroku in Japan.  It is not imported by Winchester even.  It is imported by Browning Arms.  So, it is a foreign made rifle (Japan) and imported by Browning (Utah).  Winchester just takes money for licensing the name Winchester to Miroku and Browning.  How is that different than Uberti imported by an American company (Cimarron, Taylors, etc.)?  It's not.  It has been re-engineered, so it is different from the original Winchester 1873.  Granted the differences are not huge in looks, but it does differ in mechanics.  Some, but enough to not be simpatico with the originals.  We at NCOWS evaluated it for authenticity, and the shorter lever throw (in the article in the American Rifleman, Winchester even said it was redesigned for a short stroke) along with the differing hammer and firing pin assembly, Congress voted to not allow it.

This does not mean it is a poor rifle, and should not be purchased and used for what they were made for.  I wish I had one in 44 WCF.  But no one ever seems to have one in stock.  It is allowable in SASS, and would make a great saddle gun.  The Miroku imports are well made.  I have 1894 and 1895 Mirokus, and they are great shooters, though I was very disappointed in my 38 WCF 1892 Miroku).  I just wish they did not have a tang safety.  And it appears that the Miroku import Winchester 1873 is now only available in 357/38 or 45 Colt, which is a shame since the original 1873 Winchester was 44 caliber.  They are well made, but not as close to the original as Uberti makes.

[Malamute]

And it appears that the Miroku import Winchester 1873 is now only available in 357/38 or 45 Colt, which is a shame since the original 1873 Winchester was 44 caliber. 

 Ive seen a number of 44s on gunbroker and CDNNs site. Short rifles, 24" round and octagon rifles, and perhaps a pistol gripped rifle. The color cased guns have nicer grade wood.

[Ranch 13]

Malamute they are a ton of fun for certain.
100 meters, lyman bullet cast from 16-1 , lubed with Bullwhips Nasa lube, thin felt wad, 38 gr. Olde Eynsford 2f in Winchester cases.
Starting saturday morning we'll see if it can put antelope meat on the jerky smoker.

[Cliff Fendley]

PS:  In a competition rifle, ALL the the key action takes place at the FRONT of the lever.  NOT out at the back of the lever.  Take a look at the Photo from Major 2, notice very small difference down at the front of the lever.  Interesting ......No??

Notice in the photo they also don't have the rifles lined up exactly at the lever pivot so there is more difference than the photo shows.

I just returned from the NCOWS regional shoot where we compared a Miroku to an original Winchester and Uberti. The Uberti lever throw is exact of original but the Miroku is shorter.

One thing we did observe which I had never noticed before is the stock length. The Uberti is actually longer than the original but the Miroku has a more correct length of pull. With the shorter stroke and correct length of pull the Miroku does feel like a much shorter stroke to the lever than a Uberti.

In reality the Uberti feels longer. I had always thought the original rifles just felt good because the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from shooting a 130 year old gun but in reality the Ubertis are actually longer and really do feel a little different levering them.

I have since compared Ubertis to original Winchester 73's and on average the originals have around 1/2 inch shorter length of pull than a Uberti. It appears no one makes an accurate replica.

This thread is about the carbine and the length we were comparing was on rifles so I don't know how the carbine compares, it does appear the difference is in the stock and not the tang or the receiver.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I have since compared Ubertis to original Winchester 73's and on average the originals have around 1/2 inch shorter length of pull than a Uberti. It appears no one makes an accurate replica...

Almost all of today's rifles & shotguns have a longer LOP as people are on the whole larger due to better nutrition.

FWIW, technically there is no Winchester today. The ammo division split off in the early 80's and still exists, but the gun division shut their doors in 2006. To get more technical, the real Winchester went bankrupt in 1931 and Olin bought them out.