Loading 777 in cartridges

[Bunk]

Found a pound of 777 and would like to use it in .38 Special with 124 grain bullets.
It is a bit hotter than Pyrodex or APP I am told.
My question is do you load like black powder to bullet base or like smokessomewhatless (ug) powder leaving some space in the case or some 777 and filler to base?.
Non snarky responses please I am a Gunpowder guy but you can't beat free.
Holding center
hitting occasionally
Bunk

[Sedalia Dave]

First question, is it 2F or 3F?

3F is for modern muzzle loaders only.
2F can be used in cartridges, shot shells and modern muzzle loaders.
Hodgdon does not recommend that any grade of 777 be used in antique firearms.

Load it to just shy of the base of the bullet. Hodgdon does not recommend compressing 777.

Link to Hodgdon's loading data for 777

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/cowboy-action1-1.pdf

[hellgate]

Bunk,
I've been inadvertanyly reloading 777 wrong for about as long as the powder has been around. I use the 3F exclusively in 357 and 38SPL but all my 38SPL shooting has been in .357s. YMMV. I like how the 3F stuff meters. If you are shooting 124gr bullets you would need 15 grs 777 to be at the bullet base with a normal COAL for the 38s. It is a "snappy" load but just fine unless you are in a competitive SASS match. Then I would load 13 grs powder and have a small bit of space under the bulle for a less recoiling load. The 777 loads are still way below what a full smokeless load pressure would be.

I also use 3F 777 in modest 12ga shotgun loads for Cowboy Action matches.

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[Mako]

First question, is it 2F or 3F?

3F is for modern muzzle loaders only.
2F can be used in cartridges, shot shells and modern muzzle loaders.
Hodgdon does not recommend that any grade of 777 be used in antique firearms.

Load it to just shy of the base of the bullet. Hodgdon does not recommend compressing 777.

 yeah, yeah yeah... just like Hellgate I have used it wrong too.  I was in a place I couldn't get BP for a while and used APP and 777 flown in for us (funny story about what is considered dangerous and they won't transport on military contracted flights...).  I just loaded it like I do Real powder.

I also don't care what grain size of powder I load for Cowboy shooting, I shoot FFFg, FFg, Fg and probably floor sweepings.  I mainly shoot reenactment powders when I can get them (so I'm cheap...).  I have shot Fg from cap and ball revolvers and even 4F and 4F mixed with 1F.  As you can see I'm a "snob" (NOT) when it comes to shooting at targets 10 to 15 yards away from revolvers, rifles and shotguns.

Now saying all of that and sounding smug, I will admit I just paid $67.99/lb for 4 lbs of IMR 4064 last week which is only enough for just 699 loaded rounds (unless I spill some), with tax, shipping and hazmat that is over $0.47 per round!  I will spend money when it counts but as I said, cowboy action ranges unless you are in a PRS or some sort of long range side match just shoot what you can get.

You can always have space in a case (horrors!) even with BP.  John Kort found a bunch of 19th century shells loaded in partially filled cases.  I'm not sure where the "use a full case or seat the bullet against the powder" came from.  Smokeless powder generates a LOT more pressure a LOT more quickly (I can show you the pressure ramp rate charts).

Hellgate's suggested 13 grains sounds good and he is RIGHT, 777 loads are still very low pressure loads.  The manufacturers have to warn us that eating the powder can be harmful to our health and Prop. 65 will warn you that you should not attempt to reproduce after using a substance as dangerous as 777.

All joking aside, firearms are serious things, they can and will kill you or others if mishandled.  But, BP and BP substitutes are not some mystical art, they are in fact easier to use than smokeless powder.

~Mako

[Sedalia Dave]

Yep the no airspace thing is not as critical as some people make it out to be.

In cartridge guns and C&B pistols you know you have too much airspace when there is a noticeable delay between pulling the trigger and the boom.  I hear it most often in C&B pistols with mouse fart loads.