Shotgun Barrel Length

[4Fingers]

I've been collecting guns needed for SASS type events. So far I've got two 1873 SA replica .45 revolvers and two 1873 Winchester lever action rifle replicas(.45 Colt and .44-40 Winchester).  Now, apparently, I need a shotgun.  I'd like to get an 1897 model Winchester.  What is the best barrel length and why?  I see guns everywhere from 20" to 32".  Oh, what is "LOP"?  I see that in many ads for shotguns.....something to do with stock length?

Thanks,

4F

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

LOP means length of pull.  The distance from the front trigger to the butt.

Whatever length you choose, don't chop an original gun.  Halves the value, halves the usefullness for other shotgun uses, and halves the value. 

If you think you need a barkeeps gun, buy an original.  The biggest problem with chopped barrels is that the result will be poor patterns, but worse, it will tend to overshoot.  It will shoot high for two reasons; 1. the sight line has changed, and 2. Any holding error, and they are common, will magnify the error in shot placement usually higher still.  Also, some guns will no longer fully open enough to allow extraction and reloading as the resulting barrel group is too light.

For me, longer barrels (within reason) lead to better shooting.  Any supposed speed advantage will not be apparent. In fact my best ever match results were with 30 inch full choke barrels on original guns.  Of course LOTS of practise helped.

[Jefro]

20'' is the most popular, lighter, easier to get around props, through doors and windows. If you plan to use it for SASS I say cut em to what works for you, I have a shotgun for hunting and skeet. If you plan to shoot BP a SXS is a better choice, and required for some categories. My first suggestion is to get out to some local matches and try out the different guns and gear before you buy. Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

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[4Fingers]

LOP means length of pull.  The distance from the front trigger to the butt.

Whatever length you choose, don't chop an original gun.  Halves the value, halves the usefullness for other shotgun uses, and halves the value. 

If you think you need a barkeeps gun, buy an original.  The biggest problem with chopped barrels is that the result will be poor patterns, but worse, it will tend to overshoot.  It will shoot high for two reasons; 1. the sight line has changed, and 2. Any holding error, and they are common, will magnify the error in shot placement usually higher still.  Also, some guns will no longer fully open enough to allow extraction and reloading as the resulting barrel group is too light.

For me, longer barrels (within reason) lead to better shooting.  Any supposed speed advantage will not be apparent. In fact my best ever match results were with 30 inch full choke barrels on original guns.  Of course LOTS of practise helped.

Thanks. Good info.  I was thinking I'd buy a 30-32" barrel and have it cut down to 20" because my know-it-all gun dealer said that would be a good idea.  I believe your opinion makes more sense.

Thanks,

4F

[4Fingers]

20'' is the most popular, lighter, easier to get around props, through doors and windows. If you plan to use it for SASS I say cut em to what works for you, I have a shotgun for hunting and skeet. If you plan to shoot BP a SXS is a better choice, and required for some categories. My first suggestion is to get out to some local matches and try out the different guns and gear before you buy. Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

That's good advice.  I haven't yet attended a match let alone fired a shotgun over 20" in length....that would be my Winchester 12 Ga Defender.  Well, I shot birds and such as a kid on the farm with my Grandpa's rusty .410 single shot with a regular barrel, which must have been somewhere between 25 and 30".  I also remember the trigger guard was made from a coffee can.  Those were the days.  Almost shot myself in the foot when I stumbled once in an Iowa corn field.  Missed my right foot by about an inch.  Stuff like that you don't forget and that was about 55 years ago when I was 8 or 9.

Thanks.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I still say, "DON"T CUT"!   Buy one already short if you fancy one.

Original guns are an ever diminishing resourse.

I know 20 inch barrels are popular and common, but IMHO that is still just a fad!

If you havn't already noticed, I have very firm opinions on this topic.

[Pettifogger]

I still say, "DON"T CUT"!   Buy one already short if you fancy one.

Original guns are an ever diminishing resourse.

I know 20 inch barrels are popular and common, but IMHO that is still just a fad!

If you havn't already noticed, I have very firm opinions on this topic.

They made well over a million 97s.  Unless it is collector grade, cutting the barrel on a standard old beater 97 absolutely will not hurt the value.  The prices have actually come down the past couple of years as the growth of CAS has slowed a bit.

[Old Top]

Four Fingers,

One of the problems with cutting the barrel is that you lose the choke which affects the pattern of shot.  Most matches are close enough that it does not matter but if you wish to use the shotgun for other activities it may matter.  A lot of the old shotguns are not set for 2 3/4 shot shells and will have to be rechambered.  My preferance is a double barrel with a 24 inch leangth not so many moveing parts to break.

Old Top

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I too am firmly in the camp of don't cut the barrels down on old guns.

I don't care how many they made, they ain't making any more. One more cut down is one less in existence. And some shotguns do a lot worse when they have been cut. The Stevens 311 depends on the weight of he barrels to keep it open. Cut it down and the cocking levers try to close it on you. As far as convenience around stages is concerned, I just don't see that as being an issue. My main match shotgun used to be an old Stevens with 30" full choke barrels. Never had a problem negotiating a stage with it. At typical CAS distances, the pattern was only the size of a dinner plate. Never missed as long as I actually took a moment to aim.

Yes, in this game you actually need to aim the shotgun. I keep hearing from wingshooters who claim the shotgun should be pointed, not aimed, but this ain't skeet, and if you want to hit a stationary target you better take a moment to aim, not just point and shoot.

I have an original '97 made in 1908. 30" full choke barrel. Would not dream of cutting it down. Makes a pretty good trap gun, I just won the Cowboy Trap event at the Great Nor'easter with it the other day. Could not have done that if I had cut it down.

[Bugscuffle]

My regulas SASS shotgun is a mod 311 with 28" barrels choked Mod/Full and it works great. I have recently gotten an original (1939) Mod 97 12 Ga. and it's barrel was already cut to 25 1/2". I plan to use it for W.B. as soon as I save up enough for a good mod 1911. I am in the process of rebluing it and changing the butstock and building a  magazine extension for it to hold seven + one, lengthening the forcing cone, adding removable Win-chokes and a mercury recoil reducing device. This gun was not original when I got it, and that is the reason that I selected it. I wouldn't be taking a relic out of the collectors market. It did have matching numbers on the forward section and the action and the barrel was pristine. It is a very solid starting point for a home made custom gun. As far as the barel length goes, it all depends on what you are going to use it for. For NCOWS the shorted barrel MIGHT be a very slight advantage and in SASS because of the short ranges involved the short barrel won't hurt you, but in NCOWS there are sometimes longer range shots involved. Soooooo....you pays your money and you takes your chances. You can also do what most of the old time SASS shooters do, have a whole gaggle of shotguns and use the one that tickles your fancy at the moment.

[4Fingers]

Howdy

I too am firmly in the camp of don't cut the barrels down on old guns..........

I have an original '97 made in 1908. 30" full choke barrel. Would not dream of cutting it down. Makes a pretty good trap gun, I just won the Cowboy Trap event at the Great Nor'easter with it the other day. Could not have done that if I had cut it down.

Congratulations!

4F

[4Fingers]

........... You can also do what most of the old time SASS shooters do, have a whole gaggle of shotguns and use the one that tickles your fancy at the moment.

Now that's the kind of arithmetic I like.

4F

[Jamie]

Just one more thought on the longer barrel.  It doesn't sound like you do a great deal of shotgunning, now or in the fairly recent past.  It is easy to assume that since there's a bunch of tiny pellets flying out, you can generally hit anything in front of you by pulling the trigger.  Except for the last station in skeet, I find it easier to hit things with a longer barrel.  Of course a longer barrel is harder to stop when you're swinging on a moving target, which is not the case in CAS, however, given the same choke, a longer barrel is going to be easier to hit with at any distance.  There are those who will say a shorter barrel is quicker, and easier to stop when you're shooting stationary targets, but when it comes to being easier to actually hit the target, given the same choke, I prefer a longer barrel.  Plus even a little choke is better than no choke in a typical shotgun.  Improved cylinder is probably best in my opinion for most people, but then again there are probably few if any improved cylinder guns out there in a '97.  I've handled an awful lot of model 12 Winchesters over the years in various gun stores, and aside from one skeet gun, I've never seen anything looser than modified.  I can only imagine that the '97's are fewer and farther between!
Jamie

[4Fingers]

Just one more thought on the longer barrel.  It doesn't sound like you do a great deal of shotgunning, now or in the fairly recent past.  It is easy to assume that since there's a bunch of tiny pellets flying out, you can generally hit anything in front of you by pulling the trigger.  Except for the last station in skeet, I find it easier to hit things with a longer barrel.  Of course a longer barrel is harder to stop when you're swinging on a moving target, which is not the case in CAS, however, given the same choke, a longer barrel is going to be easier to hit with at any distance.  There are those who will say a shorter barrel is quicker, and easier to stop when you're shooting stationary targets, but when it comes to being easier to actually hit the target, given the same choke, I prefer a longer barrel.  Plus even a little choke is better than no choke in a typical shotgun.  Improved cylinder is probably best in my opinion for most people, but then again there are probably few if any improved cylinder guns out there in a '97.  I've handled an awful lot of model 12 Winchesters over the years in various gun stores, and aside from one skeet gun, I've never seen anything looser than modified.  I can only imagine that the '97's are fewer and farther between!
Jamie

You lost me on the last few sentences......"improved cylinder guns...."  What is that?  "...never seen anything looser than modified"....?  "...."'97's are fewer and farther between!".....? 

Sorry, me no comprende.

4F

[Old Top]

4fingers,

He is refering to the choke on the shotgun, full, modified, ect.....

Old Top

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I got called to work today and lost the post I had composed. Old Top answered your first question.

Now for the second; "...."'97's are fewer and farther between!".....?  

Although many were manufactured attrition through heavy use, abuse, loss, accident, or by being "bubba'd" have diminished their numbers and there won't be more if you don't count the copies. Pettifogger says that prices are dropping due to CAS having peaked, and shooters moving to doubles.

Now ask yourself;  Which '97s will get the best price when you declare them surplus from your armoury, the one in original condition, or the bubba'd gun

[Jamie]

Sorry for the confusion!  That's the last thing I wanted to do.  I suspect that most of the questions have been answered, but just to live up to the reputation my children would promote of me...
1) Modified - shotguns come from the factory with either no choking, or tightening of the bore at the muzzle end, or some degree of choke, typically either skeet choke (the least amount, designed for the game of skeet shooting, which is not the same thing as trap shooting), improved cylinder (more than skeet, but less than the tighter ones, good for upland hunting of birds, rabbits), modified (tighter than Improved cylinder, kind of a middle of the road - do it all choke on the hunting seen) improved modified (a choke primarily seen on trap guns - shooting at longer ranges and needing smaller, fuller patterns of shot to hit the clay target as it sails away from you), full choke (used for trap shooting, helpful for squirrel hunting, and when lead shot was allowed it was a duck and goose hunting choke, designed for tighter patterns at longer ranges - a turkey choke as well) and last but not least (actually, the MOST choke) the extra-full, super-full, super duper pepper upper full which is a product of the turkey hunting revolution, designed to put a small cluster of a large number of shot pellets on a turkey's head at the greatest distance possible.  Hope that helps...
2) few and far between - back in the day of the Winchester model 97, tighter factory chokes were the norm, and appropriately so.  In the first place, the game of shooting skeet (closer range, sharper angles of target travel relative to the shooter, therefore benefited by larger diameter swarms of shot, and therefore more "open" chokes - ie. skeet and improved cylinder) began at the very tail end of model 97 production, so very few were purchased for that purpose.  Add to that the state of the shotgun shell at that point, no shot cup, typically softer shot, therefore more shot deformation (scrubbing out of round as it passed down the barrel of the gun) tighter chokes were required for most hunting purposes.  I doubt, therefore, that there are many 97's with improved cylinder chokes.  Most I've seen that were factory original have been full choked.  The Winchester model 12, a later model obviously than the model 97 was the darling of the early skeet shooters from what I understand, still, try to find one in improved cylinder, let alone skeet!  Again, the changes and improvements in shotgun shells relative to hunting purposes has been incredible, but it has come since the 1960's, with "shot wraps" and the beginnings of shot cups, and has improved logrythmically since then.  The last 15 years have been nothing short of revolutionary in every aspect of shotgunning.     This leads me to...
3)Appropriate chokes for specific purposes.  Today, it's hard to buy a new shotgun with a single choke barrel, that is, improved cylinder, modified, OR full.  Today, most barrels are threaded internally for choke inserts, and you can purchase tubes to screw into your barrel in just about any constriction you want.  Due to the nature of today's shotshells, and the availability of choke inserts, I feel that most people would be best served with an improved cylinder choke in their gun, especially for typical shotgun efforts.  It (an improved cylinder choke) typically produces decent patterns with even coverage and adequate pellet numbers to dispatch small game very well within the distance most hunters I know should be shooting at it.  This is a vast overstatement to be sure - what about turkeys and predator hunting, and what about trap shooting, and...  Anyway, for short range shooting at reactive targets, I believe most shooters would be best served by a shotgun with an improved cylinder choke.  That's all I was trying to say.  I sure didn't mean to be confusing, or demeaning by any stretch!

By now I have beaten the horse to death to the point that it is hard to tell it was a horse, but hopefully that's helpful at some level
Jamie

[Jamie]

By the way, I would NEVER cut the barrel on an original model 97, no matter what choke it came with.  I cut down the barrel on a gifted to me Sears pump gun recently, and still felt guilty! (It was a Stevens 520, with little useful purpose, now it has a purpose, but that's another story.)
Jamie

[4Fingers]

Thanks Jamie, that clears it up for me.  Thanks.

4F

[maarty]

Barrel length doesn't really matter in my opinion.
I've heard the "go short to get through windows and clear props" angle but I've read the rules and no where does it say you HAVE to have the muzzle on the downrange side of the prop i.e. stand a step back and save yourself having to poke it through the window and then pull it back again to reload, which I've seen numerous people do.
The extra step back isn't going to have any real effect on the shot pattern at the ranges we shoot shotgun at.

Shoot what feels right to you and what you find works best, having said that do remember the previous advice on barrel weight and sxs guns closing on you.