45-70,,,or larger,,,a question ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

I am, well, new to the big bore Sharps,,,,and am curious,,what is the recoil factor on a 45-70 ? or larger ?

And, folk lore aside, what is,,honestly, the range on this big guns ? with BP ? with smokeless ?  and,,would the Sharps handle smokeless loads if not maxed out ?

Would appreciate you advice and opinions, as in the future, a Sharps or Hi-Wall might be in the gun safe.

Thanks

Marshal Deadwood

[Kayleen]

 Here at the Ackley, Iowa range we can get the distance of 1000 yds. Yes, a 45-70 can hit the target. Most everyone uses black powder and all seem to have a preference as to which brand. Swiss, Elephant, Goex and Kick(sp) It is quite interesting to sit around the fire and listen to these folks and what they do to be good shots.
 Best part of the long range shooters and buffalo hunters is, they never complain about anything other perhaps the wind is blowing to hard.
Kayleen

[Silver Creek Slim]

As Kayleen said they'z good to "the distance of 1000 yds" and beyond. At the GAF Muster in Ackley last year, I hit a small buffalo at 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500 yds with my Remington roller and 1895 Marlin with .45-70 BP loads. If ya shoot Nitro in a Sharps keep it in the Trapdoor pressures/velocity.

Slim

[Advertising]

[TAkaho kid]

Marshal,

Recoil is very subjective -  bullet size, powder charge, granulation etc. Way to many variables to discuss at one sitting. As for the 45-70 reaching out and touching something at 1000 yrds - yes indeed with the proper bullet and load. While larger capacity cartridges like the 45-90 have un-surperd it a bit there are many 45-70s campained sucessfully in the Long range BPCR game. The load does have to meet a power formula - the NRA gets a bit nervous when it comes to 500 grain bullets dropping at a high angle - however it can be and is regularly achieved with straight BP loads.

While accurate smokeless loads can be worked up quite easily I would suggest sticking with BP if for nothing more then the challenge and nostalgia.

The best thing about the 45-70 is the wide range of loads it can shoot - from mild 300 gr. plinker to a shoulder wrenching 550 grain buff slayer its got something for everyone.

I would suggest getting a copy of Mike Venturio's book "Shooting the Buffalo Guns of the Old West"

[Marshal Deadwood]

Guys, I appreciate it.

Here in the hills of western Virginia, the ranges are Lucky, very lucky, to have a 300 yard competitive shoot. So, Mr. Sharps has that covered.

Same with hunting, and I WOULD use the Sharps to hunt. I'd stick with black powder most likely, since ,,well,,,I have shot it for 30 years and just don't feel,,,I just don't have a love for nitro. Don't even know why I asked about nitro.

Now, a whitetail load for deer ?  I wouldn't want to cut a deer middle in two,,so I guess some 'experimenting' to find the  proper load for our deer would be in order.  That can take awhile,,,even field results have to be figured in ..so that would be an on-going process.

Now,,,another question....What model would be the best gun for my purposes ?

300 yard competitive at most.
300 yard hunting range at most.

Thanks  gents, its most appreciated.

Marshal Deadwood

[Delmonico]

Deer with a 45-70 is simple use a Lyman 457122, Elmer put his stamp on it so you know it has to be good, still being made.

[Deadeye Don]

Guys, I appreciate it.

Here in the hills of western Virginia, the ranges are Lucky, very lucky, to have a 300 yard competitive shoot. So, Mr. Sharps has that covered.

Same with hunting, and I WOULD use the Sharps to hunt. I'd stick with black powder most likely, since ,,well,,,I have shot it for 30 years and just don't feel,,,I just don't have a love for nitro. Don't even know why I asked about nitro.

Now, a whitetail load for deer ?  I wouldn't want to cut a deer middle in two,,so I guess some 'experimenting' to find the  proper load for our deer would be in order.  That can take awhile,,,even field results have to be figured in ..so that would be an on-going process.

Now,,,another question....What model would be the best gun for my purpose?


If I understand your last question you are asking what model Sharps you should buy.  That is quite a question.  I think you need to decide what manufacturer you feel most compfortable with. You can spend 1K up to and past 7K if you desire.  Everyone has their own opinion regarding manufacturers.  From you past postings, I think you prefer made in the USA so there are two companies you can choose from:  Shiloh sharps and Csharps, both happen to be in the same city in Montana and both USA made.  Then there is Pedersoli and Armi Sport.  I have aHartford model CSHARPS on order
in 45-70 with a heavy Badger 30" barrel and a Buckhorn and blade sight. There is a thread on the SASS website about the two American Sharps companies. I have heard great things about the Pedersoli rifles as well.  I think 45-70 is a perfect caliber for your stated use and that anything bigger would be overkill.   My way of thinking about a Sharps is that you may only buy one of them in your lifetime,  so GET WHAT YOU WANT  the first time you buy and it will in fact last you a lifetime.    Safe shooting.  Deadeye.

300 yard competitive at most.
300 yard hunting range at most.

Thanks  gents, its most appreciated.

Marshal Deadwood

[Marshal Deadwood]

Deadeye,,,thanks hoss.

I see I was a bit vague in my previous post,,,and,,have a few ideas even since reading ya'll's replies.

I think, yes, the 45-70 would certainly suffice,,,as game would be far and large whitetail deer. A bear is a possibility, but I'm sure the 45-70 would handle that with extreme grace also.

Now, to the make ,,and model.....

this will probably have to be a 'next years' venture,,so I have time,,,to ponder the choice.  I admit to being somewhat un-educated about the American made Sharps...but of the two others,,Perderstollie and Armi,,,,I 'think',,,I would prefer the Perdi...but,,,that would subject to change.

I gather the Shiloh is quiet expensive,,I wouldn't rule it out exactly,,,and your wisdom is sound,,,a 'once in a lifetime gun',,,so get what you want...if ones settles,,,one will never be  happy ....I can not say that I've looked into the Hartford models,,but,,,

I see you are a 'quality man' Deadeye,,and that prompts me to research the Hartford product..

A last question...Pederstoli's "Quigley' Sharps...was this rifle based on an historic model ? or an 'interpretation' for the movie ?

Thank you sirs,

Marshal Deadwood

[Trailrider]

There are several questions you need to ask yourself before deciding on the rifle and the caliber:

First, how important is the historical angle?  If ya just have to have a Sharps, because it's...well...a Sharps, then the next question is the caliber and cartridge.  Otherwise, I'd tend to recommend the HiWall. Historically, the M1885 Winchester came along too late for most of the buffalo era. Design-wise, it is quite strong, strong enough for reasonable smokeless loads (up to the level of the .30-40 Krag...speaking of the originals now...and the repros are undoubtedly at least as strong).  The small, centrally- hung hammer doesn't jar the rifle as much as the big side-hammers of the Sharps or the Remington rolling block, for that matter.

Second, what are you going to use the rifle for most?  If you are taking up Black Powder Cartridge Rifle (BPCR) shooting, and expect to most of it at 500-1000 yds, then you will probably want to go with a .45 caliber cartridge.  If you intend to shoot at such long ranges, you probably will want to shoot black powder.  It's not that you can't get good accuracy at those long ranges with smokeless, but the uniformity of loading density of black or one of the substitutes tends to make for better consistancy.

If that is the situation, you may want to consider the .45-90 (2.4" long case) over the .45-70 (2.1" case).  Recoil with 500 grain or heavier bullets will be a bit stout, but certainly NOTHING like one of the .50 caliber cartridges (except maybe the .50-70). 

On the other hand, if you won't be shooting at ranges longer than 500 yds on a consistant basis, or if you are going to shoot smokeless loads pretty much, then I would recommend the .45-70.  You can certainly load powder and bullet combination that will give excellent results that can outperform black powder, especially with either a rolling block or HiWall.  The smaller powder capacity of the 2.1" case is preferrable for light loads with smokeless.  Yet you can get some pretty good results with a range of bullet weights and black powder or substitutes.

For game, including bigger bears, and even buffalo, the .45-70 is certainly very effective, and for whitetail or black bear will do the job nicely without tearing up a lot of meat.  Bullet placement is still the main criteria in effectiveness regardless of caliber.

Well, I hope this helps...

[Marshal Deadwood]

Trailraider,,,ya know,,,im still in the formation stage on a 'single shot' big bore,,and yes,,the Hi-Wall is very attractive,,esp that it is a stronger design....or so I read.

I would not rule out a Hi-Wall,,,I sure have been looking at them also...

It was suppose to have been a major advance in the big single shot rifles I gather ?  (not that i'm saying a word bad about a Sharps, just playing devils advocate with 'options.')

I do think , as I learn from ya'll , that in my area, the 45-70 would be equal to ANY task id' have here.

Thanks gents,

Marshal Deadwood

[Cyrille]

I have a Pedersoli .45-70 that I am in the process of working up a good load for x grs of BP behind a 500 gr .45-500-BPS
RCBS mould. The ranges you mention  for hunting are much longer than the ranges for hunting down here in South La.
As are the distances for competition shoots most target ranges[ at least the ones I'm familliar with] are no more thabn 100 yards. If there are shooting ranges of greater length in south La. I've yet to hear of them.
 Be that as it may, I've shot smokeless, GOEX and Hodgedon 777 out of the Pedersoli @ 100 yards with iron sights and am just now getting it to print in the paper so I have quite a bit more expermentation to do.
 Which ever rifle/caliber you decide on Marshal I hope you have fun shooting. Oh and by the bye don't let the "scare" comments about recoil put you off I haven't had a sore sholder yet from fireing my .45-70 in my practice sessions and I usually fire approximately sixty rounds per session with no less than 60 grs of BP 2 or 3 F or triple 7.
Good shooting sir!

[Otter]

Marshal Deadwood,

You are at a point where most of us that do shoot BPCR rifles once were, at the beginning. You are asking the right questions and getting some good, valid answers. NONE of the answers are wrong (at least not so far), so keep that in mind. So, I'm going to pitch in a couple of pennies worth of thoughts and opinions to further muddy the waters for you . . .

1) I would (and did) stay with a 45-70 for these reasons - the brass is readily available and inexpensive, especially when compared to 45-90 and larger. They are easy to load and there is a wide range of bullets available whether you cast your own or buy commercially made bullets. The recoil is very manageable, even if loaded with smokeless powder - I routinely shoot 100 or more rounds in an afternoon, with no ill effects. I do shoot only real BP in my single shot BPCR rifles.

2) Sharps, Rolling Block, Hi-Wall or other? - Here comes personal preference and the budget . . . A lot depends on how you are going to use the rifle. If it is strictly for hunting, you will want one you can fairly easily carry in the field without wearing yourself out. That would essentially eliminate the rifles with heavy barrels, including the Quigley Sharps, regardless of manufacturer. If you are going to be a competition shooter, shooting off of x-sticks or a bench, then the heavy barreled guns come back into play. If you are going to shoot a lot, I would suggest getting a "high grade" rifle, which are basically custom made rifles and will definitely put a dent in your wallet. Some of the manufacturers in this price range are Shiloh and C. Sharps, Ballard Rifle Co. and Lone Star Rifle. For these rifles you will generally have a waiting period, too. Pedersoli makes repros of most of these guns for a bit less money, but you may have difficuly in locating one that is available "right now." The Pedersoli's I have been able to shoot, are capable of being very good shooters for not a whole lot of money. There are also Sharps repros from IAB and others that are even less money than the Pedersolis. I can't comment at all on them because I have not handled or shot one, but many on this forum have them and have had good results. Pick one you like and go for it.

3) BP or smokeless? My OPINION is that you will get the most consistent and quickest accuracy results from BPCR rifles by using real BP, even over BP subs. I do shoot smokless in my 45-70 Marlin 1895 Cowboy rifle because I am basically lazy, and have had good results.

All that being said - I have a Shiloh Sharps Hartford (1874) and a custom built Remington Rolling Block based on an original action. The Sharps weighs about 12 pounds and the RB scales just shy of 14 pounds I use them both for targets and hunting. They both have shotgun style buttplates, and I would strongly advise that feature. I have shot BPCR for about 11 years and am far from being an "expert." But I do have fun with them at the range and have taken 6 or 7 deer with them. You need to decide for yourself how and how much you are going to use you rifle. Make a decision you are comfortable with and be happy with it. Most importantly, once you get your rifle, practice, practice, practice. Play with the loads you use, every gun has its own favorite diet it likes to be fed, and you just have to experiment to find what that diet is. There is nothing like hearing the big boom from these guns and smell of spent BP. It kind of makes you giggle . . .

And then there are sights . . .

[Silver Creek Slim]

They both have shotgun style buttplates, and I would strongly advise that feature.

Here, here! I have a 12 lb Pedersoli rolling block that has a crescent butt plate. After 15 or so 500+grs rounds, the shoulder starts ta git a mite tender. I'z seriously thinking about replacing it with a shotgun style buttstock. If I shot it more I would have done it before.

Slim

[Delmonico]

I guess I'm lucky, the recoil don't bother me, I like the cresent butt plate for both looks and the fack it hangs better on my shoulder and doesn't want to move.  I also find the loads that clock 1380 fps with the 457122 330 Hp have more recoil that the 500 gr ones. 

[James Hunt]

IMHO:

Sharps Rifles Rank Ordered: Shiloh, C.Sharps,.........................., Pedersoli,.....................................................all others.

Caliber (if you can only have one): .45 - 70, and then .50-70. Both are really easy to get an accurate 100 - 220 yd. load for in my expereince. Basically just pour in black powder, shove in a 400 g or heavier bullet with lots of grease grooves and you are set to go. Put a wad in if you want. Not so with the bottle necks or once you get over 80 grains of BP in the straights - the alchemy index rises exponentially at that point.

Hunting: I am no great hunter but have used .45-70, .50-70 and .45-110. A 20-1 cast bullet will just pour through a deer leaving a real big hole. Dead.

Recoil: Can you shoot a 30-06 without noticing recoil? None of these cartridges is anywhere near that. This is a non-starter in my opinion. Don't even consider it.

Buttplates: I like the crescent as it just looks so darn cool, but confess to a shotgun style (still very PC) on my .45-110. But my favorite is my .50-70 with crescent, and I own a light conversion carbine also in .50-70. Both of the later are really not bad at all to shoot.

All around: considering the cost of brass and loading stuff, and the chance you may want to do some competitive shooting, the .45-70 is the way to go although my favorite is the .50-70.

Smokeless: HERESY - SHAME - CAST YOUR EYES AT THE FLOOR AND APOLOGIZE!!!!

Have a good time, most of the fun is in the angst of choosing.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

JH,
I agree with your ranking of the Sharps manufacturers. I too, rate the Pedersoli above all other Italian mfg.
I wish I hadn't sold my Pedersoli Sharps. It was a bit impolite with factory Remington 45-70 Semi jacketed hunting loads, but with my reloads either with Smokeless(did i Say that?) or BP even with 500 Grn Bullets, I could shoot a BPCR match and not hurt all week. It sure was fun to knock down a full size Ram at 500 Meters with that gun. You could touch it off and watch the bullet hit the target. I loved the sound of the bullet hitting the target.