Gun belt without ctg. loops??

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy folks,

I am trying to document a mid 1870's gun belt without cartridge loops.  Don't think that a Dr. would feel the need for them & probably most town folk would be similarly inclined.

I have examined Packing Iron and the Peacemakers and have had no luck.  Pictures of C & B rigs without them, but no GOOD pictures of cartridge revovers on plain belts.

In the Peacemakers, there is a picture on page 225, center photo, of "Studio shot of teenage cowboy, his revolver apparently a Remington Model 1875 or 1890 with pearl or ivory grips: a luxury considering wages at the time."  I don't feel safe using a "studio" picture for documentation.

Can you point me to a picture, or a period catalog reference to a belt w/o loops??  Thanks!!

[Two Flints]

Dr. Bob,

Just picked an old book entitled, Doctors of the Old West by Robert F. Karolevitz. He does not mention gun belts without cartridge loops as worn by doctors of the old west, but refers to one doctor, Dr. Arthur E. Hertzler, who practiced on the plains of Kansas, adding extra gear, "a Colt "Peacemaker" for protection. Looking at the many photos in this book, it would seem that doctors of the Old West carried their firearms in their medical bags as this photo of Dr. Henry D. Robertson, California (circa 1880s) would suggest:

or perhaps derringers concealed in their clothing as worn by this group of Denver doctors
1873.


Two Flints

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy Two Flints,

Thanksfor the photos. I imagine that most doctors usually went unarmed.  I want to use a belt & holster on the range and that is why I asked the question.  My personal also was a Santa Fe trader, hotel and saloon operator and a gambler.  He would want to go about armed at times.

I'm not sure that a doctor would want to just drop a revolver in his bag with his instruemtns.  They were expensive and hard to replace on the frontier.  I would guess that a doctor would most likely cary some sort of pocket revolver, in a pocket.  I doubt if he would expect to use it and not feel the need to carry extra ammo.  That is my reason for wanting to document belts without loops for extra cartridges. 

On the NCOWS board several folks posted pictures of several belts and indicated that they would have been called "California belts."  I doubt if safety rules would allow me to carry my main match revolver around in my Dr's bag.  Heck, I wouldn't feel safe doing that!

Thanks for your info!!  The Dr. pictures are neat!

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[ColonelFlashman]

This is one of the reasons why Pocket Pistoles were so Popular & one carried the extra rounds for it in ones Wisket pocket.

Though if an M.D. had to travell a lot via Horseback or Buggy, Why wouldn't he be Smart & be carrying a Belt Pistole on a Belt around his waist?

There were plenty that were former Military & still had their Officers Waist Belts for their uniforms that they were required to carry a Pistole in a holster on, so why wouldn't they use that & carry there extra cartridges in the Cap/Pistole Cartidge Pouch?

[Dr. Bob]

How Col. Flashman,

Dr. Bob is an old fart!  My persona is my age, 62 and was born in 1813.  Was a Surgeon with the &th US Infantry Regt. during the Mexican War and did not participate in the ACW or Indian Wars.

Your point aobut the hoster & belt is where I want to be.  I suppose that I could use my Mex War buckle, but would not have had a holster and cap pouch in 1846-48.  My Mex. War belt is a sword belt and I don't want to use it.

Since I am currently doing 1876, I am using a California style slim jim holster and a plain California belt.  I am comfortable with this rig for the range.  Dr. Bob doesn't want cartridges on his belt when he's on the buggy!   And Dr. Bob wants his .45 cal. SAA when he has to travel.  Geeez, now I've got me talking aobut myself in the third person.

Thanks you for your thoughts!

[St. George]

A Contract Surgeon from the aforementioned Mexican War period would've worn a Green sash - and 'not' a Model of 1851 Belt and Belt Plate, as that war was over before the adoption of that particular article of uniform was designed and adopted - and the Contract Surgeon - like the Chaplain - was not officially armed.

A plain, civilian flap holster would be something suitable to represent that time - worn on a simple belt with a frame buckle.

All of this does nothing for any real sort of competition, though - as the flap can be cumbersome - though a civilian's holster wouldn't necessarily be as 'stoutly-made' as that of a soldier's - more like a leather 'envelope' than anything else - featuring a lightly-embossed edge.

You 'could' carry your weapon holstered on a plain belt, using a pouch for the loose cartridges -but it wouldn't be a very common method by that time, since by 1876, the cartridge belt had firmly taken over and was available commercially pretty much everywhere dry goods and hardware were sold.

As a Frontier Physician - you have your Gladstone bag and I'd allow that 'that' was the most common method for a Doctor to cart around his full-sized revolver - with extra cartridges carried in their cardboard box, or perhaps a box inside the buggy.

On the other hand - that period was sort of the 'Dawn of the Pocket Pistol' and you'd be seeing all manner of good-quality, small-framed revolvers hitting the marketplace at a rapid rate - and you'd be more or less 'dressed' for them - with a coat and vest a part of your daily 'uniform' and offering ready concealment.

The late 1880's would see shoulder holsters gain in popularity - for all revolver frame sizes - and there'd be the 'Texas Pouch' style and 'Half-Breed' spring clip that you could choose from.

I have an El Paso Saddlery shoulder holster as made by them for John Wesley Hardin in the 1890's - and I'll give it this - it'll surely hide a Colt SAA - but 'any' sort of speed is out of the question, as it positions directly under the armpit, with no forward cant - ala' the so-called 'Huckleberry Rig - so the gun's removed slowly.

If you want true convenience - a 'Half-Breed' is far better - but it's from a later time frame.

Of course - you could carry both - using a pocket revolver on the person and your Gladstone bag for something larger - with your buggy carrying what was probably most carted about - your rifle or shotgun.

Now - judging from that first photo - after you figure out what holster works best for you - what you 'really' need are Cavalier Boots and a Quirt to go with your pommel bags...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Rascal Ralph]

Dr. Bob- Think like a "buggy driving " Dr. of the time you want. Doc's being smarter then most people of their time, might have a cartridge belt for their SASA, find it uncomfortable  riding against the back of the buggy seat, and would unlace, or cut off the loops!  A belt with unlaced loops, or "no" loops might look cool, invoke questions that you have an immediate responce for. Just a thought. RR

[ColonelFlashman]

"Dr. Bob- Think like a "buggy driving " Dr. of the time you want. Doc's being smarter then most people of their time, might have a cartridge belt for their SASA, find it uncomfortable  riding against the back of the buggy seat, and would unlace, or cut off the loops!  A belt with unlaced loops, or "no" loops might look cool, invoke questions that you have an immediate responce for. Just a thought. RR"

Why go to All that trouble?

Talk about reinventing the wheel.

All he'd have to do is use an Olde Style Percussion Pistole Belt instead that he mentioned previously, & use the Cap Pouch as a Pistole Cartridge Box &/or use his Weskit Pockets.

Not everyone changed as rapedly w/ the times using the lastest new fangled thing came around, as there were still thousands of individuals that were Still using Percussion Type firearms after the turn of the 20th Century.

By-the-by, I have this book as well, "Doctors of the Old West by Robert F. Karolevitz", great research material. I almost lucked out, but missed out on acquiring the Medical Saddle Bags that are shown in this book, as it would have been a great addition to my meager Horse Furnature Collection.

[Dr. Bob]

St. George,

I already have the boots and quirt!  Got the boots 10 years ago, one piece front and half round tops. 

For the Mexican War I am a US Army surgeon for the 7th Inf. Regt., not a contract Surgeon.  The green sash came in in 51 I think.  I doubt if Surgeons were authorized any sash as the were not part of the chain of command.  If they were, it would have been a regualr wine colored one.  I'll check my 1839 & 1847 Regs to be sure.  I have a sword belt as even a Surgeon would be on Parade and have to render the proper salute!

Col. Flashman,

If you are ever in the KC area, I would be happy to show you my original medical saddle bags and the repros that I had made.  The origianls are not in good enough condition to take out, even for display.  But, the are real neet!  Too bad I can't post pictures.