GBU Ponderings

[Danny Bear Claw]

I re-watched The Good, The Bad And The Ugly today.  A true classic horse opera.  I noticed Blondy and Tuco carry what appear to be Navy Colt revolvers, apparently cartridge converted.  Angel Eyes seems to be totin' a Remington model 1875.  Now we all know this film is set in the Civil War era.  I'm not sure cartridge converted revolvers were around yet while the Civil War was going on but I am sure the Remington '75 wasn't around during the war between the states.
   I also started a flap on the SASS wire when I mentioned that in the movie Tombstone, during the shoot out at the OK Corral, Doc Holiday fires 3 shots from a double barrel shotgun.  Some said it was merely Hollywierd showing two different angles of the same shot.  I beg to differ, if you watch closely the first shot is fired into the air, the second shot is fired from the shoulder and the third shot is fired from the hip.  That's three distinctly different shots fired from a double barrel shotgun.
   I drive my wife crazy with this stuff.  She says, "Can't you just watch the movie and enjoy it"?  It's hard to enjoy it when they're using the wrong guns and not using them properly.  I can't help myself.  I look for firearms accuracy in all movies... westerns or not.  What's a body to do?

[The Arapaho Kid]

Another Hollyrude Ooops is in that Glen Ford movie "The Man From The Alamo".  the Alamo fell in 1836.  Many of the guys in that movie, including Glen Ford were packing sixshooters.  Sorry folks!  They didn't have sixshooters in 1836!

[Danny Bear Claw]

Good point Kid.  The Paterson Colt came out in '36 but I doubt any made it as far south as the Alamo while it was in Texan hands.  It seems the older a western is, the more likely there will be inaccuracies in it as far as firearms go, but you would think that by the time Tombstone came out they would know better than to show 3 different shots from a double barrel shotgun.  How about Curly Bill firing 18 or more shots from a pair of sixguns?  Ride With The Devil is pretty darn accurate.  Here again, Civil War era, and the only sixguns seen are all cap-n-ball.  They don't acturally show the tedious task of reloading them but there are a few sceens where they are actually seen working the loading levers on them.  Close enough for me.

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[The Arapaho Kid]

Here's a picture of the first Colt Patterson revolver.  This one did come out in 1836, but like you said, I also doubt they were in the hands of the Alamo defenders.  It looks like the one Ford is carrying is a Remington?  You never get to see any good shots of the sixguns in that picture, but you can see many of the actors wearing them.  I've always thought that Hollyrude bends the truth quite a bit.

[Stoney Pete]

DVD's are great things.  I zoomed in on Angel's eyes gun during the final fight scene.  You could see the caps on the nipples of his C&B Remmington.   I guess the bullets on his belt were for looks.

[Stoney Pete]

The Undefeated takes place in 1865 as John Wayne character resigns from the US Calvary right after the war.  Yet he's carrying a Colt '73 SAA and a Winchester '92.

In Rio Lobo, another 1865 post civil war flick, we got's the same problem.

In the Searchers John Wayne goes from a Winchester '92 carbine (round barrel) to a Winchester '92 short rifle (octagon barrel), all in the same scene of preventing the hostile indians from crossing the river.

Stoney (what know's the Duke can do no wrong and repents of his exposing what could be called flaws) Pete

[Stoney Pete]

  ... Doc Holiday fires 3 shots from a double barrel shotgun.  Some said it was merely Hollywierd showing two different angles of the same shot.  I beg to differ, if you watch closely the first shot is fired into the air, the second shot is fired from the shoulder and the third shot is fired from the hip.  That's three distinctly different shots fired from a double barrel shotgun. 

I've heard it was a tribute to an old Tombstone movie that made the same mistake so the "copied" it for this version.  But now I've got a homework project.  Gonna rewatch the movie and see if I see what you see.  Wish my teachers had given me homework like this when I was a kid.

I drive my wife crazy with this stuff.  She says, "Can't you just watch the movie and enjoy it"?  It's hard to enjoy it when they're using the wrong guns and not using them properly.  I can't help myself.  I look for firearms accuracy in all movies... westerns or not.  What's a body to do?

SASS and my love for the old west has made watching movies fun as I point out the firearm inaccuracies.  Driving my wife crazy doing it is part of the fun.  Truth be told is she keeps saying, " I can't believe I'm watcing westerns.  What's worse is I'm actually enjoying it."  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

[Silver Creek Slim]

I do the same thing when I watch Westerns. For instance, in "Silverado" Danny Glover is supposed to be using a Henry rifle, but at times it is a Win '66 with the forestock removed and at other times it is a Henry. I watched closely for the loading gate (and the absence of one) and the cartidge follower tab that stick outta the magazine tube. Right before the final shootout he has two Henrys, his and his father's.

Slim

PS. I am moving this to the Westerns Forum.

[Cheyenne]

During the CW there were no Colt cartridge conversions, you're right. From an armorer's perspective, I can certainly see why they use cartridge firing blanks for movies, they are just more reliable than the cap and ball...a misfire means the scene has to be shot again.

Now, Tuco has a 51 Navy that will change.....in some scenes, the long cartridge cylinder is evident, then in others, there is a percussion cylinder in it's place.

Angel Eyes has a New Model Remington Army, commonly called a "'58", and lord only knows why he has so many cartridges, looks, yeah, it looks good.

The really neat gun is the one used by Blonde.....look close, you'll see the frame is an 1872 open top, while the barrel is a '51.  You can see the loading gate and the bridged area above the hammer, also the hammer is that of the OT....kinda neat....yes, DVD's are great.

Now, you want to talk conversions in CW era movies?  Watch Outlaw Josey Whales closely.....when Josey digs his pistol out from the fire ruins of his Missouri home, he pulls out an 1860 Army, with a shortened barrel, no ejector or rammer and the conversion ring and cylinder and hammer set up are from a later Richards-Mason Army conversion.....also, you'll spot a lot of conversions in that one all over the place, from the two gents in the Trading post, to the one Chief Dan George uses....a Richards conversion with a shortened barrel, complete with a proper Richards ejector, but no ejector rod! 

Still these are great movies to watch and they are entertaining, which is what they are supposed to be.

Probably the best film for showing percussion guns in their natural state is Quigley down under.....several scenes you'll see caps on the cones of the cylinders.....even a reloading scene complete with flask!

Next best one has to be Ride with the Devil, only reaason it falls behind Quigley is the main character uses "1858" Remingtons with brass frames!  Other than that it's great.....they used quite a few cylinder from R&D in this one and the firing pins were painted to 'look' like caps on cones! 

[The Arapaho Kid]

Cheyenne:  This brings up a question for me.  I have a replica of a .36 Navy Colt and it has a brass frame.  I have read that it is not recommended to fire live ammo in it and a powder charge only.  I have fired rounds out of it with no problem, but several places have said it's not recommended.  It's been a while since I fired that pistol and I forgot how many grains of powder to put in it.  As I recall the standard rule is no more grains of powder than the caliber.  In other words...you don't want to put more than 36 grains of powder in a .36 caliber pistol.  So what I need to know is...is my brass frame .36 safe to shoot and how many grains of powder should I use for standard CAS shooting?

Thanks!

[Stoney Pete]

I do the same thing when I watch Westerns. For instance, in "Silverado" Danny Glover is supposed to be using a Henry rifle, but at times it is a Win '66 with the forestock removed and at other times it is a Henry. I watched closely for the loading gate (and the absence of one) and the cartidge follower tab that stick outta the magazine tube. Right before the final shootout he has two Henrys, his and his father's.

Slim

PS. I am moving this to the Westerns Forum.

Though I agree one of the Henry's used was a '66 with the forearm removed, looking for the loading gate does not automatically make it a '66.  Here is a Transitional Henry.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Well, that is interesting, Stoney. Thanks for posting it. I lernt my one new thang fer the day.
But, I doubt they were trying to represent a transitional Henry. Cuz I was also looking fer the follower tab.

Slim

[Danny Bear Claw]

Interesting comments on various movies.  Thanks Pards for your input.  I did notice the changing rifles in Silverado and have slowed, freeze-framed and zoomed in on the Josey Wales guns.  Interesting indeed.  In the 3 Clint Eastwood "spaghetti westerns" he often uses what appears to be a "Hollywood Henry", i.e. - an 1866 Yellow Boy with the front wood removed.  I think my favorite Clint Eastwood western would be "Unforgiven".  It shows a Star pistol being fired and of course, the Schofield revolver carried by the Schofield Kid.  Two guns rarely seen in westerns.

Arapho Kid... I'm probably wrong but I thought the max load for a '51 Navy in 36 caliber was 28 grains of the black.  Anyway, I had a friend who used to load and shoot a '51 replica with 30 grains of powder...  I was there the day it blew up in his hand.  Check your loading manuals or The Iron Duke's book.  God bless you all and safe shooting.

[Stoney Pete]

Well, that is interesting, Stoney. Thanks for posting it. I lernt my one new thang fer the day.
But, I doubt they were trying to represent a transitional Henry. Cuz I was also looking fer the follower tab.

Slim

I know they weren't trying to represent a Traditonal Henry.  I just tell myself that when I see the film.  It's my "spoon full of sugar to make the medicine go down".   BTW they did not have a follower tab either.


Go here and here to see more pics of transitional Henry's.

Rare Wincesters is where I got these pics.  If you gots time to drool take a look see at all the guns I'll never be able to afford.

[The Arapaho Kid]

Interesting comments on various movies.  Thanks Pards for your input.  I did notice the changing rifles in Silverado and have slowed, freeze-framed and zoomed in on the Josey Wales guns.  Interesting indeed.  In the 3 Clint Eastwood "spaghetti westerns" he often uses what appears to be a "Hollywood Henry", i.e. - an 1866 Yellow Boy with the front wood removed.  I think my favorite Clint Eastwood western would be "Unforgiven".  It shows a Star pistol being fired and of course, the Schofield revolver carried by the Schofield Kid.  Two guns rarely seen in westerns.

Arapho Kid... I'm probably wrong but I thought the max load for a '51 Navy in 36 caliber was 28 grains of the black.  Anyway, I had a friend who used to load and shoot a '51 replica with 30 grains of powder...  I was there the day it blew up in his hand.  Check your loading manuals or The Iron Duke's book.  God bless you all and safe shooting.


Bear Claw:  I've gotten three feedbacks that say use no more than 20 grains of 3FFF black in that .36, so I'll be going with a 20 grain charge when I shoot it.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Interesting comments on various movies.  Thanks Pards for your input.  I did notice the changing rifles in Silverado and have slowed, freeze-framed and zoomed in on the Josey Wales guns.  Interesting indeed.  In the 3 Clint Eastwood "spaghetti westerns" he often uses what appears to be a "Hollywood Henry", i.e. - an 1866 Yellow Boy with the front wood removed.  I think my favorite Clint Eastwood western would be "Unforgiven".  It shows a Star pistol being fired and of course, the Schofield revolver carried by the Schofield Kid.  Two guns rarely seen in westerns.

Arapho Kid... I'm probably wrong but I thought the max load for a '51 Navy in 36 caliber was 28 grains of the black.  Anyway, I had a friend who used to load and shoot a '51 replica with 30 grains of powder...  I was there the day it blew up in his hand.  Check your loading manuals or The Iron Duke's book.  God bless you all and safe shooting.

Bear Claw:  I've gotten three feedbacks that say use no more than 20 grains of 3FFF black in that .36, so I'll be going with a 20 grain charge when I shoot it.

30grs is the "standard" load for .44 C&B pistols.

Slim

[Second Creek Sam]

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Stoney (what know's the Duke can do no wrong and repents of his exposing what could be called flaws) Pete

Whew!  I'm glad I read this last part of your post.  I was loading my six-gun after saddlin my hoss.

[Faden Fast]

Danny Bear Claw,

I saw your mention of Doc's 3 shots from a double shotgun in Tombstone.   Yes, he did fire once in the air, once from the shoulder and once from the hip.   When I looked closely at the last two shots (from the shoulder and hip), I think it's SUPPOSSED to be the same shot.   The camera angle of the shoulder shot is from behind Doc showing Tom McLaury being hit and falling down.  Then the camera angle of the hip shot is from behind Tom, and he's standing, then hit, then falling down.

Continuity is not good, but I think that was the intention of the director.  He also show the same shots from different angles in the shootout to create the impression of more shots.  For instance, when Doc fires back at Ike in the building, he seems to have fired about 10 or more shots from each pistol!

Thanks for listening...

Faden Fast
"Wherever I go, there I am."

[Texas Lawdog]

The Texas Rangers had access to the Patterson Revolvers when It was introduced.  That's probably where the first Law Officers carried them, usually in pairs.  I think they have one or two on display at the Ranger Museum in Waco.

[RowdyBill]

The top Hollywood "oops" of Westerns isn't "wrong gun for the period", but (I forget the film, but it's 1950's) an Apache warrior wearing a wristwatch he forgot to remove for the shoot.  Love it!