Smokeless Load for Henry OK?

[W.T.]

Pards, I have two boxes of 44-40 loaded with, I believe, 8gr of Unique.  My question is this: do you fellas think that charge is inadvisable for the brass-framed Henry?  It a Cimarron/Uberti & so far, all it's had has been BP.

Thanks,

WT

[St. George]

These guns were expected to shoot factory-loaded modern ammunition.

So long as you're not exceeding factory-loaded ammunition in pressures - you should be just fine.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Henry4440]

Pards, I have two boxes of 44-40 loaded with, I believe, 8gr of Unique.  My question is this: do you fellas think that charge is inadvisable for the brass-framed Henry?  It a Cimarron/Uberti & so far, all it's had has been BP.
Thanks,
WT

Yip, take a look at the link.
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/44_40_061804/
That's what i shot in my Henry when not BP.
Bullet    Wgt. (grs.)       Powder       Primer      Case   Starting Load (grs.)    Max. Load (grs.) Velocity (fps)    Notes
 Hornady lead 205    VV N350     Win LP  Hornady      9.0                      10.0                    1,247          Very Accurate
 

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[Silver Creek Slim]

Slim faints at the thought of shooting Heathen Nitro in a .44 WCF Henry. 

Slim

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Without knowing how heavy a bullet you used in those 8 grain Unique loads, it is impossible to say. Powder charge is meaningless without knowing bullet weight.

My normal Smokeless 44-40 load was 7.3 grains of Unique under a 200 grain RNFP bullet. I had no reservations shooting this in a '73 which has the same basic toggle link action as a Henry. The only load for 44-40 in my Speer manual using Unique is 7.8 grains MIN and 8.6 grains MAX under a 200 grain bullet. Thiis load will be under the SAAMI standard of 13,000 c.u.p, and above a minimum of 10,000 c.u.p. Any load that meets SAAMI standard pressure should be OK in a brass framed Henry.

I probably have slightly different data at home in my Lyman manual.

[W.T.]

Thanks, gents; I should be ok then.  Just didn't want to unduly stress the receiver.  The ammo 'came down' to me, and I know nothing about the bullet weight.  I ought to pull a round and check out the components.  Once the smokeless I have on hand is gone, it'll be BP from now on.

Really wrung out the Henry this afternoon for the first time, or maybe it was the other way around.  Trying to come to some accomodation with the sights, I fired 100 rnds BP (Great Basin 200 gr) and 40 smokeless (Win 225gr).  I just can't see that rear sight except in gross fuzz mode.  Once I kind of figured out how to 'remember' where the top of the rear sight was relative to the front, I got 2" groups (but this is only a little 25-yard indoor range).

After a whole bunch of BP (40? 60?), I felt as though groups were falling apart.  It was probably me needing a break, but just for the heck of it, I put together a brass rod and ran windex/vinegar on a double patch down the bore a couple times, dried it, and resumed shooting.  Bore didn't seem especially crudded-up; it seemed to help, or maybe I was just rested.

Never felt the call of a tang-mounted peep so powerfully - I don't think that would 'look right', but man, did I need one!  Anybody doing that?  How un-cool would that be?

WT

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have Lyman #2's or original tang sights on my leverguns.  My eyes are too old to focus on three planes at once.  Take the sight disc out and use the "ghost-ring".  All that smoke in front of the sights requires a lot of light to penetrate!

[Will Ketchum]

W.T. , take a look at this full buckhorn sight.  http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gkcxibbc4nouw2ame0vldorh))/categories/PARTDETAIL.ASPX?CATID=14&SUBID=167&STYLEID=764&PARTNUM=RS-PM-1

I have one on both my 66 and Henry.  I use it as a ghost ring.  I had tang sights on my CAS rifles but found that there was just too much that can go wrong with them.  You might forget to put it up when staging the rifle.  If a stage calls for putting the rifle in a scabbard the sight can fold down when you put it in.  It can get knocked against a prop and be off.  I know because all that happened to me at one time or another during about 5 years of using both Lyman and Marbles tang sights

Will Ketchum

[W.T.]

W.T. , take a look at this full buckhorn sight.  http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gkcxibbc4nouw2ame0vldorh))/categories/PARTDETAIL.ASPX?CATID=14&SUBID=167&STYLEID=764&PARTNUM=RS-PM-1
IWill Ketchum

Now that looks interesting; kind of almost-complete ghost ring circle.

Perhaps I will try and replicate the shape & size in black card stock or sheet metal & see how the focusing goes with it in place of the stock buckhorn.  I know a tang peep would work very well, but as you say, things can go wrong, and anyhow, I'm afraid it'd  look like a rump-mounted Unicorn horn on a Henry...

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I mounted the Track of the Wolf sight on my Henry. It is short enough to fit between the dovetail and the frame. I did open up the notch a bit on mine though, to help me find the front sight a little bit better.

[Will Ketchum]

Mostly I don't use the notch.  Just the entire back sight loop as a ghost ring.  The only time I use the notch is when a long precise shot is required.

Will Ketchum

[w44wcf]

W.T.,
According to Alliant, the current manufacturer of Unique,  your 8 gr. load is fine in your Henry.
SAMMI specs for the .44-40 call for 14,000 c.u.p. as MAP (Maximum average pressure).
See the Alliant data here.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Pistols%20and%20Revolvers&gtypeid=1&weight=200&shellid=1026&bulletid=82

w44wcf 

[W.T.]

Thanks,w44wcf, for pointing me toward the online loading data, and thanks to all who responded for their patience in steering me as i find my way around this stuff.  I dont' know enough to know what I don't know.

That brass frame: read somewhere that it was more of a form of bronze, and used to be known as 'gun metal'.  Granted that these are pistol rounds, but I was wondering about where the danger point lie in using ammo that will eventually stretch or crack it.  Now I'm going over to all BP with its mellower pressure-generation curve, so the matter is academic, but ya gotta wonder.

 

[Will Ketchum]

Some years back on the SASS Wire one of the old time top shooter (perhaps Bounty Hunter) posted regarding the strength of the brass framed 66 & Henry.  He said he had fired thousands of smokeless rounds through his 66, taking measurements along the way and could find no change.

I have come to believe the talk of these frames stretching is myth.  I know of many 66 & Henrys that have been used exclusively with smokeless powder for many rounds with no problems.  As stated previously they are made to shoot modern factory smokeless rounds.  As long as you stay within those specifications I doubt if you will have a problem.

Will Ketchum

[W.T.]

Thanks, Will - Just wouldn't want to break it outta igner'ce...

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Read Mike Venturino's book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West. He tells the story of a brass framed Henry he was going to buy. Before he got a chance to buy it, the owner fired a magazine full of high velocity Smokeless 44-40 rounds in it. He stretched the frame and ruined the head spacing. Venturino backed out of the deal.

Granted,with SAAMI spec ammo, a brass framed Henry will be fine. But put hot stuff in it, hotter than SAAMI spec, and you might be surprised.

By the way, if you want to see a brass framed percussion pistol with a stretched frame sometime, come on over to my house. Nobody told me back in 1968 that 30 grains of BP and a 44 cal ball was too much for continued use in a brass framed 44. My old brass framed 44 cal 'Navy' now permanently shoots about 18" high at 25 feet. It didn't do that when it was new.

Regarding your unknown Unique loads. I say again. Unless you know the weight of the bullets, you cannot determine if the loads are safe. W44wcf: how can you determine the loads are safe without knowing the bullet weight? If they are 200 grain bullets, the load is fine. If they weigh more than 200 grains, all bets are off until you pull a bullet and weigh it.

[W.T.]

If they are 200 grain bullets, the load is fine. If they weigh more than 200 grains, all bets are off until you pull a bullet and weigh it.

Done; they're 200 grainers.  Thanks, Driftwood.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Sorry to be such a nervous Nellie. Did you weigh the powder too? is it 8 grains? Is it Unique? I'm looking at my Speer manual right now and it says that 8.6 grains of Unique is the MAX load for 44-40 with a 200 grain bullet. I believe I mentioned earlier that my own Smokeless load for 44-40 was throttled back just a tad to 7.3 grains of Unique under a 200 grain bullet.

[W.T.]

 I don't know what Unique is 'sposed to look like, but on the RCBS 505 scale (that I don't really trust), the beam came up at 7.9.

It's moot, because I'm switching over to BP in everything, where, thank the Lord, loads are by volume.  I shot up all my Great Basin BP 44-40 the week before the local range burned down.  Got my BP reloading components (45lc & 44-40) but will have no place to shoot it 'til I can complete the membership drill for a private club in about a month.

The scale was part of a huge lot that I got in a swap for a camera.  In addition to the Vetterli 10.4X38r (which was all I really wanted), I got a big, never used Lee progressive, a simple Lee single stage, and all the bells & whistles except for dies. 

I'll keep the single stage; I got a hand loader, dies, & some small implements this weekend.  Because I have zero interest in smokeless reloading, I was gonna look into swapping the progressive and its components for a Colt clone C&B revolver (anybody got a decent Uberti 60 Army, 61 Navy, or 62 Police and need a nice reloading press?  Let's chat).  If that doesn't work out, I'll donate it to the NRA range here.

Driftwood, there is no nervouser-Nellie than me ; hence my question.

[Will Ketchum]

W.T., if you don't trust the scale I'd advice you to buy a set of check weights.  The you can establish whether you can rely on the scale.  I bought a set of Lyman's years ago and use them to check my scales periodically.

Will Ketchum