I Wish Joe Stack Had Not Killed Himself!
by Chuck Baldwin
All of us are now aware of the Texas man who yesterday flew his private plane into a 7-story Austin office building. Apparently, he intentionally crashed his plane into the building to target the IRS offices that were housed inside the facility.
As I am writing this column just hours after the event took place, there has not yet been a lot of time for the major news media talking heads to spin the story. By the time this column is released on Friday, however, I'm sure we will all have been inundated with copious references to this man, Joe Stack, as being "off his rocker," or similar assertions. Perhaps our friends at DHS will label Stack a "right-wing domestic terrorist." However, Mr. Stack apparently left behind a "suicide manifesto" explaining his actions. After carefully reading Stack's manifesto, I am quite convinced that he was not crazy, and he was not a "terrorist." However, he was angry.
A lot of us are angry--and for many of the same reasons that Mr. Stack was angry! While I would certainly take exception to some of the things Stack says in his manifesto, he said things that many of us are feeling.
Stack began his manifesto by saying, "If you're reading this, you're no doubt asking yourself, 'Why did this have to happen?' The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time."
He goes on to say, "Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble [principles] represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was 'no taxation without representation' . . . These days anyone who really stands up for that [principle] is promptly labeled a 'crackpot,' traitor and worse."
For the most part, he's right about that, of course. It has been a long time since the average hardworking American has been represented in Washington, D.C. By and large, the politicians in DC represent only Big Money interests. Just try talking with your congressman or senator and see how much personal interest he or she takes in anything you have to say. As for emails, letters, and faxes, unless they number in the tens of thousands, they are mostly used as kindling for the fireplace.
Obviously, Mr. Stack had long felt the frustration of being ignored by these pimps in Washington that we know as congressmen. He wrote, "While very few working people would say they haven't had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say."
I suppose that just about every American could say the same thing.
Then, regarding our current tax system, Stack wrote, "Here we have a [tax] system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly 'holds accountable' its victims, claiming that they're responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law 'requires' a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that's not 'duress' [then] what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is."
He also wrote, "However, this is where I learned that there are two 'interpretations' for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us."
However, I think a better way of putting his statement would have been, "There are two interpretations for every law; one for the GOVERNMENT, and one for the rest of us." And only the most naïve among us would not understand that statement.
According to Stack's manifesto, he earned an engineering degree with the goal of becoming an "independent engineer." He said this about working his way through college: "I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time."
I know that feeling! My wife and I married between my sophomore and junior years of college, and for months we had a grand total of $15 a week to spend on groceries. And believe me: that did not go very far--not even in 1974. How many politicians on Capitol Hill do you think could even remotely relate to Mr. Stack?
Stack later said, "I decided that I didn't trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself."
Wow! What a revolutionary idea: taking responsibility for yourself! Now I know that practically no one on Capitol Hill can relate to Mr. Stack!
After quoting a portion of the tax law relating to Section 1706 (Treatment of Certain Technical Personnel), Stack wrote, "The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave."
His manifesto clearly reveals bitterness and resentment toward the IRS, the tax system, the banker and Big Business government bailouts, and the emergence of police-state attitudes and actions in the aftermath of 9/11. He expressed disdain for "the monsters of organized religion." He talked about his move from California to Texas. He referred to a divorce and the way his savings and retirement had been wiped out after a career of working "100-hour workweeks."
Stack also noted, "The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government." I can say "Amen" to that.
Stack's conclusion: "I have had all I can stand."
In what was obviously a reference to what he was about to do, he wrote, "Nothing changes unless there is a body count."
Then, later he said, "But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change. I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at 'big brother' while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual won't continue; I have just had enough."
Stack wrapped up his manifesto by saying, "Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let's try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well."
rest of the story:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2010/cbarchive_20100219.html
So what did he accomplish? He created a very dangerous situation for emergency services. That was a very self centered thing to do. He was a radical who snapped. I'm not the least bit impressed! >:(
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 20, 2010, 09:59:06 AM
So what did he accomplish? He created a very dangerous situation for emergency services. That was a very self centered thing to do. He was a radical who snapped. I'm not the least bit impressed! >:(
What did he accomplish? More than anyone has so far. It is a shame he died. But he was willing to die for what he believed in. Thats called commitment! Not a radical at all. Just a normal joe tired of being screwed.
If you think all that was was a self centered act you really missed the point. Fighting the regime is no self centered act.
IF you don't think that this will become increasingly more common place, your not looking very hard. What do you think will happen when they get obamas healthcare instituted. The elderly will be rationed and when they get rationed, they won't have anything to lose especially those who are denied and are given a death sentence. I know if i am one of those, i would probably do as he did. Go out making a statement!
He didn't consider the effect his action would have on his friends and family....after the funeral he will be publicly forgotten, having gotten his 15 min. of fame. An extremely expensive investigation will go on for a very long time, at taxpayer expense, and a building full of traumatized people will try to get over it all and I'm sure they will blame him, not the Govt. The man whose car was struck by the plane will not tell his insurance company that his car was hit by the Gov't! Someone else died too, that's murder! How can that be justified? That's disgusting. Sorry, I have no sympathy for that kind of thinking.That's lunacy.
Quote from: srkruzich on February 20, 2010, 10:26:39 AM
What did he accomplish? More than anyone has so far. It is a shame he died. But he was willing to die for what he believed in. Thats called commitment! Not a radical at all. Just a normal joe tired of being screwed.
If you think all that was was a self centered act you really missed the point. Fighting the regime is no self centered act.
IF you don't think that this will become increasingly more common place, your not looking very hard. What do you think will happen when they get obamas healthcare instituted. The elderly will be rationed and when they get rationed, they won't have anything to lose especially those who are denied and are given a death sentence. I know if i am one of those, i would probably do as he did. Go out making a statement!
Then by the same logic.... those that crashed into the World Trade Center should be considered heroes for their commitment to what they believe. BTW, I am not saying that I believe that merely pointing something out.
Quote from: jerry wagner on February 20, 2010, 11:15:18 AM
Then by the same logic.... those that crashed into the World Trade Center should be considered heroes for their commitment to what they believe. BTW, I am not saying that I believe that merely pointing something out.
Not at all, He targeted the IRS. Not the same thing. Its a Government entity. THe world trade center wasn't a government entity and they didn't target our government, they targeted civilians.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 20, 2010, 11:09:53 AM
An extremely expensive investigation will go on for a very long time, at taxpayer expense, and a building full of traumatized people will try to get over it all and I'm sure they will blame him, not the Govt.
I'm sure they will blame him. Instead of blaming him, why not lay the blame where it belongs at the feet of those who drove him to it.
The hypocrisy of people never ceases to amaze me.........the idiot and that should be capitol IDIOT crashed his plane into a building full of WORKING joe schmoes and he is not crazy or wrong because that building represented the government and the IRS?!?!?!?!
So Timothy McVeigh was a real cool dude too I suppose................I mean yeah he killed some little kids and women but DAMMIT he was making a statement of "true rebellion" against the government so...................
He targeted the CIVILIANS working in that building! If your mom or dad, sister, brother, cousin, child, whatever got killed would it still be such an act of "true rebellion" ?
He could've "died for what he believed in" without takin an innocent bystander with him.
Quote from: srkruzich on February 20, 2010, 01:14:48 PM
I'm sure they will blame him. Instead of blaming him, why not lay the blame where it belongs at the feet of those who drove him to it.
Those who drove him to not follow the law?
Murder suicide is a cowardly act.
Mr. Stack was a mentally ill/unbalanced individual, as is anyone who believes that it is not only permissable but necessary to take the lives of those who happen to make you angry. It is unfortunate that there was someone in that plane with him...I have never heard the identity of who it was...And I am feeling sorry for all of the families/lives that this sick man impacted.
Quote from: pamagain on February 20, 2010, 02:22:39 PM
The hypocrisy of people never ceases to amaze me.........the idiot and that should be capitol IDIOT crashed his plane into a building full of WORKING joe schmoes and he is not crazy or wrong because that building represented the government and the IRS?!?!?!?!
So Timothy McVeigh was a real cool dude too I suppose................I mean yeah he killed some little kids and women but DAMMIT he was making a statement of "true rebellion" against the government so...................
He targeted the CIVILIANS working in that building! If your mom or dad, sister, brother, cousin, child, whatever got killed would it still be such an act of "true rebellion" ?
He could've "died for what he believed in" without takin an innocent bystander with him.
Again who do you think drove him to insanity to do this? Sheesh, theres a underlying cause for him to do what he did and that was this Military Agency.
Quote from: jerry wagner on February 20, 2010, 02:36:38 PM
Those who drove him to not follow the law?
What law? Folks that have nothing to lose don't car about law. Your going to find out that law isn't going to mean a hill of beans if things keep going the way its going.
Quote from: twirldoggy on February 20, 2010, 02:51:08 PM
Murder suicide is a cowardly act.
Well i doubt he was a coward. He was pushed too far and he went over the edge. Everyone can be pushed that far.
Quote from: Catwoman on February 20, 2010, 05:41:34 PM
Mr. Stack was a mentally ill/unbalanced individual, as is anyone who believes that it is not only permissable but necessary to take the lives of those who happen to make you angry. It is unfortunate that there was someone in that plane with him...I have never heard the identity of who it was...And I am feeling sorry for all of the families/lives that this sick man impacted.
I don't think anyone is saying that just because your angry its ok. He wasn't angry, he was destroyed. If someone comes to your door with army intent on destroying you aren't you going to take as many with you as you can? I sure would. How many folks here stockpile ammo? Sure aint for the hunting you know.
This is a man who created subterfuge so that he could attack and kill innocent, unsuspecting civilians while he simultaneously killed himself. That is cowardley. Something like hiding in the bushes with a gun outside the courthouse to ambush an official you don't like, then taking your own life.
Srkruzich, damn good post, and I agree!
For the rest of you...there were no innocents in that IRS building. Everyone working for the IRS knows how they operate. Being a part of that makes them just as guilty. Are the FBI agents and gov't officals that KNEW about the OKC bombing, and yet chose to ignore the warning, any less guilty than McVeigh? What about Waco and Ruby Ridge? And countless other examples of how corrupt our gov't has become? How are we supposed to change it? Vote for change...yeah that has really worked so far hasn't it.
Cat my information source has it that the other body turned out to be a worker form the building who was right in the area where the plan hit. Homicide, regardless. There are many, many questions yet to be answered and more known information that has not yet been released. I'm sure his beef with the IRS will eventually come out in detail. I think it's a little early to take his side and justify his actions. Very sad indeed. People are turning into frogs ,ya just kill what bugs ya and then come up with an excuse that fits. Who appointed him judge and jury? How did that action now delay payments and refunds to people who were expecting them? How many of those people were there to fight an audit, within the system, and had to run for their lives? I was audited several times many years ago,never had to pay a single penny extra, and in fact the auditor suggested a couple of business deductions I had missed and was really owed a refund.This guy was wrong period!
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 21, 2010, 09:06:58 AM
Cat my information source has it that the other body turned out to be a worker form the building who was right in the area where the plan hit. Homicide, regardless.
Justifiable Homicide.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 21, 2010, 09:06:58 AM
I think it's a little early to take his side and justify his actions. Very sad indeed. People are turning into frogs ,ya just kill what bugs ya and then come up with an excuse that fits. Who appointed him judge and jury?
No. I don't think it is. Mr. Stack went to war, literally, against a tyrannical evil oppersive system. The sad thing is that the American people have allowed a system like this to come into being. I mean sure, they have protested it, voted against it, spoken out against it...but that is it. And what have they accomplished? Nothing.
You talk about judge and jury...what about those who have condemmed Stacks actions without knowing all the details?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 21, 2010, 09:06:58 AM
How did that action now delay payments and refunds to people who were expecting them? How many of those people were there to fight an audit, within the system, and had to run for their lives?
Delayed payments and refunds...maybe. But his actions could have also bought time for people who are fighting an audit that shouldn't be? How many times has the IRS been used as an intimidator against people who have done nothing more than execrise their Constitutional rights?
How many refunds have been sent to people that didn't deserve them? How many times has money been stolen from hardworking people only to be given to others in the form of a refund?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 21, 2010, 09:06:58 AM
This guy was wrong period!
Not by a long shot.
It's completely unsurprising that the mainstream media is trying to connect Joe Stack's fatal flight into an IRS building with the Tea Party movement or some sort of nebulous right wing extremism. The problem is that Stack's own publicly available manifesto is as much anti-corporate than anti-government, denouncing the Bush Administration and corporate cronyism. Stack also raged against health care reform delays and closes with praise for Communism and a condemnation of Capitalism. Rather obviously not ideas typical of the Tea Party movement. While the media has scrambled to try and make connections, using their usual cynical tactic of interviewing carefully selected "experts" who talk about right wing extremism and the need to tackle the problem of anti-government sentiments (there were no doubt experts giving King George III the same advice), there are no connections. Stack was angry not over some broader political issue, but because he felt his life had been ruined by the government. But his death serves as a convenient foil for liberals seeking to denounce all anti-government critics as dangerous extremists and terrorists who must be clamped down on. Sound familiar? But the appropriation of Stack's deadly flight by the left is as cynical as the appropriation of Amy Bishop's shotgun killing of three minority co-workers on the right. The IRS is not a partisan organization. The particular law that Stack was angry about that disenfranchised engineers and computer experts working as consultants, had been proposed by the Democratic Senator Moynihan and was passed as part of tax reforms under Reagan. It has since remained law as congress has shifted from one party to another. In other words this is not a partisan issue, much as the media would like to transform it into one, in order to gain some leverage over a populist movement.
But in real right wing violence, a rapper named Sky Blu; is claiming that Mitt Romney assaulted him with a "Vulcan Grip " It's clear that Republicans are out of control if even harmless rappers are terrified of them and their brutal outer space assaults. LOL... go Mitt! http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2010/0219/Rapper-Sky-Blu-says-Mitt-Romney-used-Vulcan-grip-on-him-in-plane-fiasco
Now this hit the bank where it hurts. NEXT target IS the IRS.
Man bulldozes home to avoid foreclosure
Terry Hoskins said he would do 'what it takes'
Updated: Friday, 19 Feb 2010, 12:21 PM EST
Published : Friday, 19 Feb 2010, 12:21 PM EST
MOSCOW, Ohio (AP) - An Ohio man says he bulldozed his home after a bank began foreclosure proceedings and says he won't let the bank take his carpet business either.
Terry Hoskins of Moscow in southwest Ohio says he has struggled with the RiverHills Bank over his Clermont County home for years and had problems with the Internal Revenue Service. He says the IRS placed liens on his store and commercial property and the bank claimed his house as collateral.
Hoskins says after spending millions on attorneys he just had enough and two weeks ago bulldozed the home, 25 miles southeast of Cincinnati.
When asked if he would level the store, Hoskins said he would do "what it takes."
Messages were left for the bank and its attorney, and with the southern Ohio office of the IRS.
havin a hell of a time puttin my thoughts into words here........................tryin to boil it down and clarify it.........
Waco.........innocents got killed because of the stupidity of our government AND their OWN leader, guy was a nutcase.
Ruby Ridge...........innocents got killed because of the stupidity and overeaction or our government and the stupidity of the FATHER.....he should've sucked it up and accepted the consequences of his actions which were illegal..rightly so or not.
Oklahoma City.......McVeigh had a hardon against the government.......so he built a big bomb and killed INNOCENTS because he was pissed at the government. He was a nutcase also.
Now this guy...........fact of the matter is he lost his mind......he decided to kill himself and decided to "make a statement" on the way out.....so what statement did he make? I'm a selfish a**hole who doesn't care about the pain of the people I damage on the way out as long as I get to throw a pissy fit? The government took my STUFF so I'm going to take as many people who don't even know me and never WOULD have known me out with me? I'm just glad God stepped in and didn't let him kill more than he did.
This government is a monster...yes. Ain't like that's anything new.......................glorifying a**holes like this guy ain't gonna fix it tho. That will just get MORE innocent people killed and change absolutely nothing.
So I guess we are supposed to disband all government at all levels, disband the military, get rid of the police, and the fire fighters while we're at it, arm ourselves to the teeth and become just another Banana Republic run by the junta du jour and the biggest bully who has the meanest friends. After all muscle means might. Lets just throw out civilized thinking and run wild. Very sad and psychotic! People who think the Gov't is out to get them personally have severe mental disorders. I suppose he heard voices too and had foil on his windows because the Gov't had sent martians to spy on him. That kind of twisted behavior is the quickest way to be disregarded as a nut case. Any legitimate issue he might have had was lost in his outrageous behavior.
People who think the Gov't is out to get them personally have severe mental disorders.
Yep, that's me Diane . Crazy as a pet coon, I say !!!
Can you sheeple be anymore blind?
Disband all gov't?...yes, and arm good common sense folks to the teeth, put a bullet in the heads of the bullies.
What has our "civilized" thinking gotten us so far? A tryannical gov't, a broken joke of a justice system, and a whole country full of people afraid of their own shadows.
Waco...innocents killed because of the actions of our gov't. Whether or not Kerish was a nutcase or not isn't an issue. If people want to follow a leader like that then they should be free to do it.
Ruby Ridge...innocents killed because of the actions of the gov't. Bear in mind that at one point it was illegal for indians to be off the reservations, rightly not or so, should they have just went belly up?
McVeigh...gave warning that the gov't agencies chose to ignore. They are just as guilty.
Joe Stack...didn't lose his mind, in fact, I would say that he had control of all his factilices. Throw a pissy fit...I'm sure that is exactly what the British said about the Boston Tea Party.
Glorifying a**holes like this guy...should we include people like Sitting Bull, Gerinmo, Crazy Horse, in the "a**hole" category? I mean afterall, they got innocents killed doing the exact same thing Stack did, which was to take a stand against the gov't.
People who think the Gov't is out to get them have mental disorders....and people who are to blind to see what has been going on the last few years are more worhtless than sheep. At least sheep have a purpose and aren't just using oxgyen that the rest of us could be using.
Varmit........seriously sheeple????? me???? wtfever LOL.
If some a**hole kills one of my family because the government took his STUFF he just better hope he kills himself or the GOVERNment catches him. Your generalizations boggle my mind sometimes. Comparing this guy to people like Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse is retarded. The people who were with THEM made the CHOICE to be there...they didn't just show up for work and get caught up in somebody elses bull. They made a CHOICE to fight for their way of LIFE against a FOREIGN entity and knew the potential consequences of their actions......and accepted them. These guys you all are sayin are such heroes took that choice AWAY from people and drug them along on THEIR private joyride/vendetta/glorious cause whatever you all want to call it.
Sayin I agree with anything the government does is SO far off base as to be too ridiculous to talk about.
Quote from: jarhead on February 21, 2010, 04:34:12 PM
People who think the Gov't is out to get them personally have severe mental disorders.
Yep, that's me Diane . Crazy as a pet coon, I say !!!
LOL aren't all Marines crazy as a pet coon!???
Quote from: pamagain on February 21, 2010, 05:02:39 PM
Varmit........seriously sheeple????? me???? wtfever LOL.
If some a**hole kills one of my family because the government took his STUFF he just better hope he kills himself or the GOVERNment catches him. Your generalizations boggle my mind sometimes. Comparing this guy to people like Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse is retarded. The people who were with THEM made the CHOICE to be there...they didn't just show up for work and get caught up in somebody elses bull. They made a CHOICE to fight for their way of LIFE against a FOREIGN entity and knew the potential consequences of their actions......and accepted them. These guys you all are sayin are such heroes took that choice AWAY from people and drug them along on THEIR private joyride/vendetta/glorious cause whatever you all want to call it.
Sayin I agree with anything the government does is SO far off base as to be too ridiculous to talk about.
Uhmm Lets see, they went in attacked anything and anyone that was white. Killed men women and children. And their heros. Joe stack made a stand and he's a psycho.
The bottom line is not joe stack, the bottom line is that things are lining up today where a number of joe stacks will start reacting to this Government until its a full blown civil war. What do you think will happen when the government announces that they are cutting out social security.
Me personally i would rather face a brigade of Marines than a bunch of pissed off bluehairs.
Steve,
what about a brigade of pissed off, blue haired ,old Marines---that suffer from PTSD ?? Lord have Mercy !
QuoteUhmm Lets see, they went in attacked anything and anyone that was white. Killed men women and children. And their heros. Joe stack made a stand and he's a psycho.
Steve....this really IS a seriously tired argument. We could have yet another retarded fight on who did what to whom but the fact of the matter is.....europeans invaded.......natives fought to keep their homes.......THAT was a war between COUNTRIES. Whites were NOT innocent in the butchering of women and children. Just because your head is somewhere dark and you won't admit the truth does NOT make it any less the truth.
This man Stack was pissed because he lost his stuff....do I understand that? Yes I do. Does it make what he did honorable??? Not even close. Make a silk purse out of a sows ear...it's still a sows ear.
Quote from: pamagain on February 21, 2010, 07:42:03 PM
Steve....this really IS a seriously tired argument. We could have yet another retarded fight on who did what to whom but the fact of the matter is.....europeans invaded.......natives fought to keep their homes.......THAT was a war between COUNTRIES. Whites were NOT innocent in the butchering of women and children. Just because your head is somewhere dark and you won't admit the truth does NOT make it any less the truth.
This man Stack was pissed because he lost his stuff....do I understand that? Yes I do. Does it make what he did honorable??? Not even close. Make a silk purse out of a sows ear...it's still a sows ear.
So let me get what your saying right.... ITs ok to go and declare war when the white guys come and are taking your home and its not ok when the irs comes and takes your home. Is that the gist of it!?
Pam, Now I aint trying to get into a pissing contest with you about Native Americans because I'm told I got some Cherokee blood running thru my veins too. You do know that almost all tribes (tribes being something white men labeled them as )--they all talked of "the People before them " The true Natives were Asians that crossed the Land Bridge up there by where Sarah Palin calls home. You probably are fully aware of this so carry on . :)
Yeah Jar I am fully aware LOL
Steve, give me a break......anybody who can read can get whatever their own beliefs and predjudices will let them get from what I wrote or write on any given subject. I voice my thoughts.....they aren't the same as yours.....(thank GOD in some cases) so live with it........I will :) We are opposite sides of a particular question...always will be...call it good bud.
Maxine and I have a 142 years between us. And we stand behind the fact the "NO MAN HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE ANOTHER MANS LIfE." The people that work at the IRS were only doing what they are trained to do. That did not give Joe Stack the right to take their life. Thank goodness there were no more people killed. If person wants to kill themself fine, do not take people that you do not know with you. There is no hero about killing yourself, it is a chicken s%&t way out.
Maude
Maude and Maxine, as usual you are right on with a good common sense response. I wish you would respond more often.
Keep on keeping on and both of you have a great day.
Quote from: Maude on February 22, 2010, 10:57:17 AM
Maxine and I have a 142 years between us. And we stand behind the fact the "NO MAN HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE ANOTHER MANS LIfE."
Matter of opinion and dependent on the situation.
Quote from: Maude on February 22, 2010, 10:57:17 AM
The people that work at the IRS were only doing what they are trained to do.
Does not excuse their actions or guilt in the criminal actions taken by the IRS against the American people.
Quote from: Maude on February 22, 2010, 10:57:17 AM
There is no hero about killing yourself, it is a chicken s%&t way out.
Maude
Again opinon based and dependent on the situation.
So if you perceive that the IRS is an oppressive agency of an evil government then it follows that any IRS worker is fair game for murderous rage. It is OK and even heroic to do what Joe Stack did. Taking this thought process out to its extreme: reminds me of Hitler's thoughts that the Jews were ruining society and his actions to round them up and kill them.
That crossed my mind too.
Quote from: twirldoggy on February 23, 2010, 08:59:45 AM
So if you perceive that the IRS is an oppressive agency of an evil government then it follows that any IRS worker is fair game for murderous rage. It is OK and even heroic to do what Joe Stack did. Taking this thought process out to its extreme: reminds me of Hitler's thoughts that the Jews were ruining society and his actions to round them up and kill them.
Whoa thats a totally wierd leap from the logical. The jews were civilians not government the irs is government.
The difference is that the IRS takes from people with the threat of death. If we were to do it to anyone out here in public it would be called extortion.
And last of all, i enact
Godwins law on your comment.
The IRS does not extort with the threat of death.
Hitler saw the Jews as controlling the major banks and financial institutions. He thought that this was detrimental and evil in German society. Of course the Jews knew what they were doing according to him.
Quote from: twirldoggy on February 23, 2010, 03:01:38 PM
The IRS does not extort with the threat of death.
wanna bet! TRy not paying your taxes, and when they come to put you in jail then resist. they will shoot you.
Quote from: twirldoggy on February 23, 2010, 03:01:38 PM
The IRS does not extort with the threat of death.
Also the IRS is the ONLY agency that has a PRIVATE Military that they use against US citizens.
If this was true then the average citizen would know about it.
Could you give some example of the IRS shooting someone, or the private military taking action?
Quote from: twirldoggy on February 23, 2010, 06:54:14 PM
Could you give some example of the IRS shooting someone, or the private military taking action?
when they went after willie nelson they went in with m16's and military weapons.
Well I think everyone knows that the IRS can confiscate property. They would need to be armed to do it. Much like the police coming to a home to search for drugs. Or Dog the Bounty Hunter coming to arrest a fugitive. But to say they are there to shoot and kill you is false. They did not shoot Willie. Willie handled the encounter and went through the courts to resolve the issue. Joe Stack would be alive today had he done the same. According to his accountant Stack had refused an audit , then failed to file. The accountant ended his relationship with Stack when he would not do the things the accountant recommended.
Quote from: twirldoggy on February 24, 2010, 08:46:48 AM
Well I think everyone knows that the IRS can confiscate property. They would need to be armed to do it. Much like the police coming to a home to search for drugs. Or Dog the Bounty Hunter coming to arrest a fugitive. But to say they are there to shoot and kill you is false.
Oh your source for this information is? You mean I can refuse to allow them to sieze my property and if they try to do so i can defend myself by any means necessary!?? SOrry but they do not have the right to sieze property. 4 th and 5 th amendments exclusively prohibit that action. Period. Show me the constitutional authority the IRS has to sieze property.
Show me the constitutional authority the IRS has to go in with Military weapons to sieze property. Not even cops are allowed to use automatic weapons against civilians, thats why they don't have them issued to every cop on the street.
Quote from: twirldoggy on February 23, 2010, 08:59:45 AM
So if you perceive that the IRS is an oppressive agency of an evil government then it follows that any IRS worker is fair game for murderous rage. It is OK and even heroic to do what Joe Stack did. Taking this thought process out to its extreme: reminds me of Hitler's thoughts that the Jews were ruining society and his actions to round them up and kill them.
Murderous rage??...No. I don't think that is what Stack did. I think he struck a blow against a corrupt and oppressive agency. Much like the Founders did. Remember when the income tax law was enacted?? It wasn't supposed to raise above 1%, where is it now?
As for marking IRS employees as "fair game", I think that anyone that voluntaraly works for them shares in the guilt. Using your analogy, its much like holding the entire SS membership responsible, although many of them didn't actively participate in the holocaust, they all share the blame.
LOL I am a bubble head and I need to move on to lighter conversation !!!
Will the IRS take my house? Seize my car?
Posted on January 7, 2010 by Howard S. Levy
Filed Under IRS Levies, IRS Seizures, Property Exempt from Collection
One of the most common concerns about owing the IRS back taxes is that they will show up one day and take your house or car from you.
No matter what the IRS may tell you or what you may have heard, it is very unlikely the IRS will levy on your house, car or furniture. The assets you may be most concerned about the IRS taking are the one's the IRS is least likely to take from you. This is important to know in negotiating with the IRS.
Last year, the IRS made only 600 seizures of houses, cars and other personal property. In case you are wondering, 600 seizures across the country is a very low number (compare to the 2 million levies the IRS sends on bank accounts and wages – now that is a concern worthy of attention).
The reason? If you do not have any "equity" in your property the IRS will not levy it.
Internal Revenue Manual 5.10.1.2 states that seizures are prohibited "where the taxpayer has insufficient equity in the property." Internal Revenue Code 6331(f) prevents the IRS from making an "uneconomical levy" – meaning there must be an economic recovery to the IRS to do it.
Examples:
Your car? If your car is worth $7,500, and you owe $7,500 on it, you are protected.
Your house? Take the value, subtract your mortgage, and reduce it further by the costs of sale. There has to be a fairly substantial amount left afterwards for the IRS to be interested under the equity rules.
Even if there is equity, a seizure is still generally something the IRS does not desire to do. You will need to force them – meaning a lack of cooperation after repeated attempts by the IRS to work it out. Most seizures need managerial approval before being sent to an IRS property liquidation specialist. Some, like a personal residence, require outside court approval (See IRC 6334(e((1)).
In most cases, the IRS is prohibited by tax law and their own internal guidelines from making a seizure when there is no recovery. Because of that, the IRS focuses the most on levying wages and bank accounts. Knowing the difference allows you to put your energy into protecting what really matters to the IRS.
http://howardlevyirslawyer.com/blog/2010/01/07/will-the-irs-take-my-house-seize-my-car/
Then you have this: What Can The IRS Seize? http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxes/ChallJurisdiction/WhatCanTheySeize.htm
Taxpayer Rights Before IRS Seizure of Assets: http://www.taxhelpattorney.com/articles/taxpayer-rights.html