I find it surprising that not one person has started a thread on the new security methods at the courthouse. What are your thoughts on this? I'm not going to give an opinion because I am sure that someone would tell me I was just mad over the election that happened 5 years ago. LOL
I think it is a little ridiculous.
Question....who was threatened (position, not the persons name)?
I'm wondering if it might be a little over the top. Of course we never get any court news out of Elk County anymore. With that kind of security being put in place, it does make one wonder just what happened to warrant such a move.
What I heard and this is probably fifth or sixth hand, was that some woman was unhappy with the court and said that she was going to go out and get her gun. I would say that this was said in anger with no intention of carrying it out, but the people involved know the woman and more about what she would do than I do.
I do think the action is overkill, locking the barn door after the horse is stolen. IMHO the woman should have been arrested right there for assault, given the appropriate sentence and fine and made to promise never to do such a thing again.
I don't think that locking the public out of a public building is the answer. Pretty drastic. How many people are going to get disgusted with having to wait to be identified and allowed to enter the building and decide to just not renew their tags, pay their taxes, record their deeds, appear in court, whatever? What are our elected officials going to do with their time if the public can't drop in? I say, punish the perp, not the public.
They tried something kind of like this at Moline Grade School before. They looked the doors and you had to buzz to get into the building. They found out that it didn't work cause if no one was in the office when parents or whoever came to the front door to get in, the parents got a little upset. It was a good effort but didn't work, cause everytime that I go down there I just walk right into the office and get my business taken care of.
Here is SoCal, metal detectors are a way of life at all courthouses. Anyone entering any of the courts are required to empty their pockets and go through the metal detectors. Some courts allow employees to pass without going through the detectors, some don't. Some courts require men to remove their belts also. If you are called for jury duty and are to report at 8 AM, you need to be there a good 30 minutes before that because the line to get in the door is usually pretty long. And, when you are standing in line, you might be standing next to a person who is there for a court appearance who has committed a crime and is out on bail. One juror actually got kicked off jury duty because he stood in line next to a person going to trial and overheard the person talking on a cell phone and discussing his involvement in the crime. When the jury was asked if they knew the defendant, the juror stated that he was in line with the guy and heard the conversation. Some courts have two lines, one for the general public and one for the jurors which allows the jurors to get in the building a little faster. Three members of my family are court employees and one is a deputy who works at the entrance to his court. He told me of one woman who refused to go through the detector because she had been summoned for jury duty and was not there of her own free will and did not feel it necessary to be treated like a common criminal.
Larryj
My opinion really doesn't matter.. and everyone make sure that they have their medications taken today cause... I agree with Janet.. ;D
Do you actually think that locking the doors to a county public office will keep an angry person at bay? I don't know what happened as I wasn't there and have not even heard too much about it.. But if someone was "really" threatened and it wasn't just a spewing of words. ( everyone knows everyone and the personality types in this small town.) then I would have had the sheriff jerk their mouthy silly asses to the sheriffs office and I would have instilled a little bit of reality to them along with a hefty fine..
Make them think before they got mad and "threatened" anyone again in a public place..
But to in effect " punish a county of people because of their fear factor is a bit much.
I saw a Fed Ex delivery woman at the courthouse door on Friday, looking around in disbelief.
At first I thought she was trying to "get on camera" but then realized that one cannot get into the courthouse at all on Fridays.
All you have to do is read the Prairie Star to get the information on how to get into the courthouse. On Friday, if you do not have court business, then you do not get into the courthouse.
What I can't believe is that we are locking up a building that is paid for and supported by the taxpayers. However; one other alternative would be to get the metal detectors, lock all but one door and have the public come through that one door. That will not work though because if the building is open the doors have to be unlocked. They are not doors that can be locked from the outside, but you can get out from the inside like at the schools. If you did the metal detectors, then you are looking at more personnel for the sheriff's office and Lord knows he has enough of those.
I agree with those that have said, "Why wasn't this person arrested, charged and dealt with through our justice system?" That makes absolutely no sense to me. Like my Mother said, Shut the barn door after the horse is stolen.
Elk County has been and still is a reactive county instead of a proactive county.
Now, I could be wrong, but I believe that the 13th Judicial District of which Elk County is part of pays for a courtroom security officer or officers to take care of security in the Butler County Judicial Center. They have a new judicial center and I haven't been there, so I don't know how they do it now. When the courtrooms were where the sheriff's office was, they had officers from the sheriff's office do courtroom duty and I think that the judicial district paid for that. I don't know how it is handled in the Greenwood County District Court. Maybe someone with more knowlege than myself can give us some answers. Also, why don't we know how much this security system cost us, the taxpayers of Elk County??????
I don't think this was a very well thought out plan. All it is is the appearence of security without it actually being there. If a person wanted to, all they would have to do is conceal a weapon under their coat or whatever and simply state that they were at the courthouse to pay their taxes, renew their tags, etc. This was nothing more than a waste of money.
Varmit, for once I am inclined to agree with you. I haven't tried the system yet, but I have to sometime this month when I go to renew my driver's license. I am wondering how long the response time will be. I have been in the sheriff's office when the dispatcher was not at her post and people had to wait to be buzzed in. I am also wondering if the person monitering the doors will be one of the already employed at the sheriff's office or if he is going to have to hire someone to do it. Seems to me that the monitoriing person will have to be at the screen constantly, without a break or get someone to cover. Also, what is to prevent someone else from entering along with the person that is admitted? How many people could slip in like that and the person monitoring at the sheriff's office would be unaware of? I think that the monitor would be better in the courthouse somewhere, where someone can actually see who is coming through the door.
I'm back. This has reminded me of the problems we had at the IRS building of unauthorized persons entering with an employee through the employee entrance or holding the door as an employee exited, then entering. We were always being admonished to watch who came in with us and to not let anyone we didn't know enter the building as we were going out.
Also, I am wondering if panic buttons wouldn't serve the purpose better. A panic button in each office that would summon the sheriff if anything suspicious occurred. Surely there aren't enough incidents to justify the locked doors and taxpayers waiting to be permitted to enter a public bulding.
Panic buttons were supposed to have already been installed in the courtroom and the district court office. What happened to those? Again, what is this system costing? I agree with Varmit. This is not a well thought out plan. This is a RE-ACTION just like Elk County has always done.
Quote from: Janet Harrington on February 15, 2010, 10:52:28 PM
This is a RE-ACTION just like Elk County has always done.
BINGO!!
It's my understanding that the dispatcher on duty will monitor the camera and let individuals in the courthouse. Don't know how true that is. Like Janet, I'm not in the loop anymore so don't know for sure.
I don't know how much this system cost, but is there only 1 dispatcher at the sheriff's office or is there 2? Don't they have to inspect the jail every 30 minutes? In the time that is down inspecting the jail, who is monitoring the door and letting individuals in? Who's watching to see if the door is propped open to let others in that were not buzzed in? This is above and beyond stupid! Let's spend thousands of dollars for cameras, magnetic door locks, intercom and buzzer systems and a card key pass for individuals working in the courthouse. Has anyone noticed that Montgomery County Courthouse, which I used to work at, only has this at the rear entrance; the front door is open and just a camera is used. Chautauqua County doors are open during business hours and only one door has a camera. I'm not for sure about Butler County but Arkansas City doesn't have this system, although it has cameras. I'm not for sure about Greenwood either. Of all things to spend their money on whenever someone could possibly be waiting outside the door when someone gets off work to do the same thing. In this community everyone knows everyone and possibly where they live and could meet them on their own terms and wouldn't have to meet them up at the courthouse. Where does the stupidity and nonsense stop? I just recently heard that it was mentioned that GPS was talked about being installed on county vehicles so that they would know where county vehicles were at all times. I can understand this on a sheriff's vehicle or an ambulance but I cannot understand this being put on a road and bridge dept. vehicle. What would be the initial cost and what would the monthly fee be on this? Some ideas sound good at first but turn out to be nonsense later or just an excuse. Most county employess don't receive a paper paycheck anymore. It's direct deposited to save the county money. This, I assure you, has had quite the opposite effect.
Ok, I'm through with my ranting and raving tonight.
MR. KShillbilly
Wow - MR Ks Hillbilly - do you always publicly bash your bosses... nice... might want to check out the facts first!
Oh and one more thing. Dist 1 commissioner is up for re - election - why not put your money where your mouth is... my term is up in 2012... anyone want the job?
Way to go, Liz. But seriously, some of us would like to know more about this system and if anything else was considered. As well as the courthouse employees know the public in Elk County, I don't see why panic buttons aren't sufficient. Usually, someone bent on mischief can be spotted before anything happens. In my experience, there is a difference in the way an innocent person conducts himself. And I have never had any special training for spotting mischief makers, except maybe for the two years I monitored a lunch room full of Junior High students.
Wilma, you need to include those years of experience as a Mother.
Frank
Wilma,
The story I received from the Sheriff - a court personnel's life was threatened over the phone - ie "I am going to come down there and blow your head off". It was a verbal threat over the phone. This is not a local person - it is someone wanted. The Sheriff acted on it. In today's society, there are very few courthouse unsecured. Is there a "good" way to secure a public building - no. Could we do nothing - yes! What is the cost of one life - you tell me. Metal detectors - another option - crazy person blows the head off the security guard and still into court house. Again - there is no perfect way to secure it. I am sorry we can't please everyone. Damned if we do and damned if we don't. Are we acting re - actively - yes. Would the taxpayers be happy if we had spent the money before a threat - no - we would have been critized for that too.
As for the GPS - yes I mentioned we LOOK in to the cost. I get many complaints of county employees doing nothing - how do you span 700 miles to find out if everyone is working....
Liz, I really hope you run for re-election again. You have done a great job! Please, don't encourage just anyone to run for your position. Before any citizen votes for a county commission, we need to ask ourselves, "Does it appear this person can manage his/her own personal life sufficiently?" If not, are they suitable to manage the Counties affairs?
Thank you, Liz. Since I don't do business at any courthouse but my own, I am not familiar with what others are doing. Even this thing of waiting to be identified and allowed to enter has it's drawbacks. If I were the perp and found a locked door between me and my target, I would just stand back and blast the door away. Nothing is going to stop the person determined on entry. The most that can be hoped for is some warning. And there is still the problem of the threatened person getting from their vehicle to the courthouse and vice versa. If someone is really intent on harming someone else, nothing is going to stop him. They will find a way. Meanwhile, all of us innocents are being penalized, not specifically to keep our county employees safe, but because of the irresponsible mentality of the people that believe that the law doesn't apply to them.
Was anything at all done to make the victim feel any better?
"We came. We saw. We conquered." I just got back from the courthouse. No problems. In fact, I think someone saw us coming. I didn't have to push a button or wait for anything except the elevator to come down. As I was about to push the button someone said, " I am bringing the elevator down to you." And someone did. Of course she was using the elevator anyway and was on her way out.
I got my driver's license and they guaranteed me a beautiful picture on it. Visited with Neva, then with Donna. Such nice people. For you people outside the county, Neva is the Register of Deeds and Donna is the County Clerk.
Actually, one way to solve the problem is to have surveillance cameras that tape 24/7, audio and video. These come in digital recorders, so that images can be saved on disks. All one has to do is do some homework. What is the cost of someone's life? Priceless. Is this system going to save that person? No. As my mother says, all they have to do is blast their way in. Where is your law enforcment going to be if that happens? Are you going to stage a deputy full time in the sheriff's office during courthouse hours to respond if that happens? I thought not.
Why wasn't anything put into the paper about this system besides Rudy's article? Why wasn't the cost publicized in the county minutes? Well, maybe it was, but I don't get to read the paper every week. I have to work out of town, so I am not home to know this stuff. I know, Liz, that you are going to say that I am welcome to come and ask at the county clerk's office to find out the cost, but like I said, I work out of town and on the days that I am in town, the courthouse is closed. Extremely inconvenient for me, but I am just one citizen/customer that pays taxes in Elk County.
One more thing, all this idiot criminal has to do is "piggy-back" his/her way into the courthouse by following an innocent customer through the door. I hope the sheriff did take care of this problem by investigating and arresting that person and I hope that person is currently sitting in the Elk County Jail, but how would we know that? We don't get any news in the paper from the sheriff's office or the court. Go figure.
I used to work in a test lab where we stressed and screened devices from all over the world. We were also a drop ship facility for several companies. We had a keyless entry system that worked pretty well. That way they had a record of who was in the building at any time. One night when I went to work, there were police everywhere, and they would not let me enter and only told me there had been a robbery. A gang of robbers forced two workers to access them entry at gunpoint. From there, they made it onto the test floor where they pistol whipped the tech, (my position), and tied everyone up with zip strips. They then proceeded to dismantle the test floor, destroying thousands of dollars of equipment and product in a search for processors. They had an idea that they were there. They were correct in that there was a large batch of processors in the building, but they were in the shipping department awaiting departure from drop ship. They missed them; those days processors were quite expensive. The company then installed a double entry system, your keyless card got you in the front door, and then a 24/7 guard operated the second door. There was also a camera installed to the test floor that alternated from one exit and building area to another. The same was at the guards' desk, shipping, and the burn-in area. The tech was also required to wear a panic button. I was pleased that the company was so responsive to the situation, and certainly felt safer as a result.
The district court used to have a panic button. It was accessible to any judge who was the sitting judge that day. It had a button in the district court clerk's office and I thought there was a necklace that the judge could wear in case the judge had to leave the bench in a hurry. Anyway, even a panic button would not be the entire answer. The camera security and keyless entry is not the entire answer. Elk County doesn't have the money to make security 24/7 with guards, etc. To give a human presence in the courthouse, a deputy or security guard would have to be hired to be there when the courthouse is open. That would create another position for someone. One solution would be to close the district court here and make it mandatory to do your district court business in Greenwood County or Butler County. That way the district courts could have security because Greenwood County has their offices in the courthouse and the jail is just right there. Butler County already has a system. I just wish someone knew something about it, so they could report it to us on the forum. However; going to Butler County and Greenwood County would sure get people to hollering!
Liz, thanks for your informative post. I do appreciate it.
You're absolutely right Janet! Why is there no Elk County Court Docket published or Sheriff notes published in the "county" newspaper? And, Liz, as far as for publicly bashing ones' boss, I don't believe I bashed Ernie or the rest of the Elk County Citizens, who are my bosses. And if I have apparently stepped on ones' toes, I talk about people to their faces and publicly, not behind their backs and not in an executive session (which isn't open to the public). Walker, District 1 Commissioner...has a nice ring to it. LOL ::)
QuoteWhy is there no Elk County Court Docket published or Sheriff notes published in the "county" newspaper?
As far as I know, they're not published because there's no one in the county that will go to the courthouse, gather the information and send it in. Jerry Wagner used to do some of it and no one has picked up the slack since he moved.
I, for one, would sure appreciate it if someone tracked down the information. :)
Well, it would have to be someone who doesn't have to leave the county to find work.
Remember when Rose Leo used to make her rounds picking up whatever news she could? Let's face it, folks, there will never be another Rose Leo. What we need to do is find a solution that will work without someone having to spend a lot of time collecting the news. Every office in the courthouse has at least two people in it. From my observations, there is some free time for someone in each office. Not constantly, but maybe at least once a week. If each office would write up a short paragraph about anything newsworthy that happened in their office each week, then combine them and e-mail it to Rudy, no one would have to take a lot of time. Or maybe once a month, just to make the public feel like they are being kept informed.
We do get some county news through the Commissioner's minutes, but I need a magnifying glass to read it. The treasurer keeps us informed as to who needs to renew their vehicle registration. The Register of Deeds informs the commissioners as to what her office has collected each period and the EMS director does the same thing with the ambulance collections. I used to enjoy reading the land transactions. These things could be a part of a monthly county news item. Once in awhile there will be something about the tickets issued. Someone in the sheriff's office would surely have the time to compile these. Court cases are public information anyway, so why couldn't there be a court docket printed? Do I need to go on? I can suggest things, but I have no idea about how to implement it.
I think someone should ask the Independence Reporter how they get their news as they have city/county arrests in the paper all the time.
Quote from: L Hendricks on February 17, 2010, 06:58:02 AM
Wow - MR Ks Hillbilly - do you always publicly bash your bosses... nice... might want to check out the facts first!
Since when does being an employee mean that a person can't express his or her opinion on a public forum? As for "boss bashing"...when those bosses are elected public officals they are open to comments. BTW, what facts did he not check??
I'm curious, the issue of price has been raised a couple times now,...what was the cost? How many contractors were contacted in order to find the lowest bidder? How much research actually went into this before the commisoners decided to spend the money that the taxpayers have provided? How many alternatives were looked into?
QuoteOh and one more thing. Dist 1 commissioner is up for re - election - why not put your money where your mouth is... my term is up in 2012... anyone want the job?
Wait a minute, let me check...yep, this is still America, and people still have the RIGHT to voice their opinion. That means that the average citizen can criticise an elected public offical when that citizen feels that said offical is not doing his/her job.
As for the cost of one life...how about taking the time to actually find a resonable solution to this problem. Treating the citizens of Elk County as a threat is not the answer. How about finding the person that made the threat? Of course, that would mean that our local law enforcment might actually have to do something that doesn't include chatting it up over coffee that the gas station or cafe.
As for GPS...whose brainfart was this. To even come up with this as a possible solution is ridiculous. Whatever happened to picking up a radio and asking where a person was and what they were doing? And before you or anybody starts criticising the road crews, they should consider what those guys are doing. You have truck drivers, heavy equipment operators, diesel mechanics working for less than $10 an hour. I think quite a bit of slack should be given.
QuoteLiz, I really hope you run for re-election again. You have done a great job! Please, don't encourage just anyone to run for your position.
That is a matter of opinion that varies greatly. Every citizen that is able should run for that position. A persons personal life is just that, Personal. Do you honestly think that the county affairs are being run very well...have you seen our roads?? Isn't kinda funny how some roads look really good while others look like crap? Ever wonder why that is? Take a look at who lives on some of the better roads.
Generally speaking ,what's wrong with GPS? They get used lot for missing vehicles etc. I can't say this as fact but it might be cheaper than a radio system.
Diane, we already have radios in our vehicles. Trust me no one would want to steal a county truck. The reason they looked at putting GPS units in the road crew vehicles was because of the "many" complaints they said the got about the road crew. They thought that if they could look at a computer and see where a vehicle was at that would ensure that none of the road crew were just sitting around. What they failed to realize that just because a grader or truck is parked on the side of the road that doesn't mean that an employee is doing anything. They might be working on a ditch, a grader could be waiting on a load of rock, or they might just simply be taking a lunch break. They still wouldn't be able to tell what an employee was doing without asking them using the radios we already have in place. Long story short... it would be cost prohibitive and nothing more than a power trip.
I guess I'm too trusting, I'd figure if you weren't moving you were busy outside the vehicle. As far as your truck being stolen, I never thought anyone would steal an ambulance either.....wrong!
Well, I have to report. I had an opportunity to go to the courthouse on Friday. I had court business. It was very simple to get in. When it was time to leave, I learned that the wooden doors had been equipped with push handles just like the school has. So, getting out is not an issue. I don't know what it will be like if the dispatcher gets busy or there are several people that need into the courthouse, but time will tell.
I had to go to the courthouse today. Buzzed in, heard some noise that was kinda like a transmission using a PRC -25 radio---almost gave me flashbacks but then there was another garbled sound that sounded like someone was choking a peacock---------- I said"if you're saying something I don't know what it is " after a moment, a voice that sounded kinda like a sonic worker taking your order said"just go on in ." Piece of cake to get in the courthouse.
UM...Might I ask how you know what a choking peacock sounds like? ;D
Used to live by a zoo. Had a night job and TRIED to sleep during the daytime
Jarhead,
I am glad that no one asked what the GI's (and I assume the Marines) real name for that PRC-25 radio was.
It is not about "ease of use", its about the citizens of this county being treated like criminals because of the actions of ONE person. By the way, Liz or any of the other commissoners that might be reading this thread, why hasn't the question of cost been answered? A few people who post on this forum and are actually citizens that you are supposed to be representing have raised the question and deserve an answer! >:(
Waldo,
Just add a couple more letter to the PRC and that's what it was called. all & all it was a good radio but a might heavy. Think it weighed 26 Lbs w/o battery, then I carried an extra battery. Most places I just used the tape antenna but once in awhile had to screw in the ol whip. I loved being a grunt /radioman. Got the gossip first.
Three days and still no answer...