Our public schools are NOT doing what most people think they are doing. Top down educational mandates and curriculum mandates are NOT accidental or populist. Parents, educate yourselves now, before it's too late. Wonder why kids are a mess? Wonder why we have college students who don't know the name of the vice president, or can't locate Spain on a globe, or have to take remedial math courses in order to learn basic skills required for college algebra courses? Look what's being done to them in the name of 'Progressive Education'. Remember the frog in the water... heat it up slowly over time and he never knows he's being boiled alive!
Parents: Educate Yourselves.
"Between 1967 and 1974 teacher training in the US was covertly revamped through the coordinated efforts of a small number of private foundations, certain universities, global corporations and several other interests working through the U.S. Department of Education and through key state education departments, one of which is the state of Vermont. "
Outstanding article can be found at: http://4brevard.com/choice/Public_Education.htm
The Hegelian Principle in Education
(or How to Create Good Socialists Children by Using the Public Schools)
Here's the link: http://www.learn-usa.com/education_transformation/er003.htm
John Dewey, considered by many (including the National Education Association, NEA) as the Father of Modern Education. Read this article on Dewey's Educational Theories. Source: International Socialist Review, Vol. 21, No. 1, Winter 1960.
"October 20, 1959 marked the one-hundredth anniversary of John Dewey's birthday. This eminent thinker of the Progressive movement was the dominant figure in American education. His most valuable and enduring contribution to our culture came from the ideas and methods he fathered in this field."
Here's the link: http://www.marxists.org/archive/novack/works/1960/x03.htm
More interesting info on Mr. Dewey...
Summary of Dewey's Philosophy of Instrumentalism
* Dewey's philosophy was called instrumentalism (related to pragmatism).
* Instrumentalism believes that truth is an instrument used by human beings to solve their problems.
* Since problems change, then so must truth.
* Since problems change, truth changes, and therefore there can be no eternal reality.
Think about that for a minute or two. Since problems change then truth also changes. Since problems and truths change, there can be NO eternal reality. hrrrm... well, so much for a four or five millennium of beliefs in Constant Truths (read: Deity)
And this is the man that one of the largest politically active unions in America consider the 'Father of Modern Education'. How much influence do you think the National Education Association has on the political processes that affect YOUR children and their 'public' education?
Here's something else to consider:
"For the 2004 political campaign, the NEA will "partner" with the leftwing organizations MoveOn.org, ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now), and the pro-Democratic Campaign for America's Future in order to achieve "the largest mobilization for education ever." Through a nationwide political strategy called "house parties" to be held on September 22, these activists will plan political rallies, register voters, meet with congressional candidates, and organize a get-out-the-vote program to cover teachers and parents. "
Read the entire article here: http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2004/aug04/psraug04.html
Keep in mind that with 3.2 million members (give or take) the NEA has a tremendous influence on curriculum in the US. When large blocks of NEA represented school systems want changes in textbooks, etc.... they get it, because the publishers cater to their largest buyers. When the NEA wants emphasis on 'progressive' educational programs, they can get it because of their immense lobby in both statehouses and the US Congress.
So, if your child can read, thank a teacher... if your child can think for him/herself, take a little personal credit and thank God!
I know this is sort of off topic, but you made a point that made me remember a program I listened to on the radio years ago. I can't remember who taught it, but his point was that people in our society treat truth like the movable chair. If they don't like this truth, they simply pick up their chair and move it somewhere else. But truth can't be truth if it's relative. It's no wonder our society is so messed up since there is no basis for society's truth. He also made the point of how kids come out of school feeling like they have no worth since they come out of the proverbial muck. He said all the schools teach "From goo to you by way of the zoo". I will never forget that saying. Too funny.
OK. Back to the tread. Sorry. Just a couple random thoughts. :)
Whats that old saying..."If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can't thank a teachers union"
Progressive education began with the goal of providing a nurturing enviroment that aimed at kids hearts rather than their heads. The movements leader, John Dewey, was a champion of education reform and believed the whole "teachers teach students facts" concept was so nineteenth-century. He saw the role of of the state as necessary to "bring about the improvements progressives sought."
What does that mean as far as how our kids are actually taught in the classroom? Dewey didn't try to hide his beliefs:
"Existing life is so complex that the child cannot be brought into contact with it without either confusion or destraction; he is either overwhelmed by a multiplicity of activities which are going on, so that he loses his own power of orderly reaction, or he is so stimulated by these various activities that his powers are permanently called into play and he becomes either undully specialized or else disintergrated."
It gets even better:
"I believe that the teacher's place and work in school is to be interpreted from this same basis. The teacher is not in the school to impose certain ideas or to form certain habits in the child, but is there as a member of the community to select the influences which shall affect the child and to assist him in properly responding to these influences."
In other words, teachers aren't there to tell a child if he or she is "right or wrong" (especially in red ink), they're there to help the child through a touchy-feely period of self-awareness and discovery. The progressive methodology also emphasizes empathy over narrative. Rather than learning the cold, hard facts about historical events, it's more important how those events make you feel. Competition is viewed as unhealthy. Grades are hurtful. Freedom is valued over structure, which means students get to do what they want rather than have to suffer through boring lessons like "how to add two numbers together". And while it no doubt makes school more fun, you have to wonder if it bears any responsibility for the fact that there are students who can look at a map of the Unitied States and go, "Whats that?"
And the hits keep on commin'!
Homeschooling and socialism, Dr. Samuel L. Blumenfeld.
Here's the link: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=117239
Quote from: Patriot on November 28, 2009, 09:25:01 AM
And the hits keep on commin'!
Homeschooling and socialism, Dr. Samuel L. Blumenfeld.
Here's the link: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=117239
Yeah. Obama is a bit worrisome to the Home School Legal Defence Association, especially with the threat of putting the US under the control of the UN.
That's a good one that everyone ought to read. He's right.
Stay right in there, Patriot. Thank you.
Here you go. How many of our children, citizens.... including teachers can do well on this 8th grade graduation test from Salina, KS, circa 1895?
Link: http://mwhodges.home.att.net/1895-test.htm
I'll be the first to say I would miss quite a few. But I'm betting our current crop of 'educated kids' would be in deep doo doo!
But, not to worry, I'm sure most 8th graders in the US know why Billy has two mommies, how to put condoms on a banana, can text on a cell phone (so long as spelling isn't an issue) and can find their way to the local mall.
Right! And these students are being trained to vote the liberal agenda,
just like we were.
Quote from: Patriot on November 28, 2009, 09:48:31 AM
Here you go. How many of our children, citizens.... including teachers can do well on this 8th grade graduation test from Salina, KS, circa 1895?
Link: http://mwhodges.home.att.net/1895-test.htm
I'll be the first to say I would miss quite a few. But I'm betting our current crop of 'educated kids' would be in deep doo doo!
But, not to worry, I'm sure most 8th graders in the US know why Billy has two mommies, how to put condoms on a banana, can text on a cell phone (so long as spelling isn't an issue) and can find their way to the local mall.
yeah. I would say most kids would be in deep doo doo.
How many more times is that test going to be discovered and printed on the forum? ;D ;D ;D ;D I suspect your own school board would call that test irrelevant in today's world. Most kids don't need to know about hecters and sections and gills. Besides they could google it! ;D That would be like asking your kids to describe the difference between a Jimmie and a Sook. Most of our kids could do it!
What in the world does telephone texting have to do with education? That's strictly in the hands of parents! If kids have cell phones the parents allowed it, if the kids misuse them, talk to parents. Schools have nothing to do with it, except trying to keep the kids from cheating with them. If kids are up too late at night with the TV and computer, how is that the school's problem? A kid crashes a car while texting, talking, drinking or using drugs? Sorry folks, it's a terrible thing, but not the teacher's problem. Sure, there are lots of things schools could do better. Always was, always will be, but let's look at the whole picture, the whole 24 hour day while we're throwing spears shall we? It's the whole thing together that makes it work. As far as maps go ,unless kids are very truant you can't tell me they don't know what a map of the US looks like. We did lots of map work in third grade. It might be done on computers now instead of the big pull down map, but I don't believe the kids weren't taught it. Now if they go to the mall, maybe some one did teach maps ;D But as to who let them go, not the teacher's problem. I doubt the constitution addresses these issues either. We all have to work together on these things. As far as the everybody must "feel good" about themselves all the time fad... y'all have to make up your own minds on that. Either kids come out of school with "no self worth" or they don't. Some say they are coddled in school and grades don't mean anything, some say that's not true...two opposing views. If I had 28 kids in class there would be 28 parents with at least 10 different views. Try juggling all that.
Diane, you addressed alot of points that aren't the fault of the teachers, and I agree with you on most. However, I would like to point out a recent poll conducted by National Geographic (yes, I posted this before but it is just as relevent now). 63% of 18 to 24 year olds could not locate Iraq on a map. 70% shrugged their shoulders when asked where Iran and Isreal were, and 90% had no clue where Afghanistan was. And if you are inclined to cut them some slack on middle eastern geography, consider this 50% couldn't even locate New York State.
Those are all examples of a poor education system and a direct reflection of teachers.
If you want to look at the whole 24 hour day, fine, then explain to me why the education system is failing? Afterall it is teachers that spend most time with students, not parents.
From the Nation's Report Card, 2008 Assessment...
"The percentage of 17-year-olds at different levels (of reading) have not changed significantly in comparison to 2004 or 1971"
Define "failing."As far as the names of countries names are concerned, do you remember some time back when the name of the country changed every time there was a government over throw? The map makers couldn't keep up. ;D Was it the Belgian Congo or what is it this week? How many can you name that used to be something else? Isn't that important for everyone to know? I rather doubt it. I'd like to know the details on that New York thing myself. 50% of whom couldn't locate it? In what context? Why were 24 year olds included? How? They aren't still in school. Would the names and places of those countries be taught in high school in World History? The elementary schools around here do in the context of current events and the fact that some have family members over there. I know I had it in7th grade.The fertile crescent and all that....A very long time ago! ;D
Can you honestly say you were interested enough in every subject to retain all the information for life? You remember everything you ever learned? I know I sure don't. I get rusty and have to look up stuff every now and then and I'm pretty smart. Does that mean my teachers failed me? Hardly! Don't forget, a lot of learning is learning HOW TO LEARN. There are survey classes and in depth classes. We all had some of each. There was a time when I could rattle off the name of pueblo pottery just by looking at it. But because I don't use that every day a lot has faded.
So where is Delaware? In New England? The south? Is it next to Vermont or New Hampshire? What states do Delaware border? What's the largest body of water it borders? What is Delaware's proper abbreviation? What do you mean you don't know without looking it up?
Which is further east Vermont or New Hampshire? Which of the two is more narrow at the bottom? Which is the largest New England State in land mass? Where does the Appalachian Trail start in the north? Where does it end? Do you care? ;D
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 28, 2009, 04:49:01 PM
So where is Delaware? In New England? The south? Is it next to Vermont or New Hampshire? What states do Delaware border?What's the largest body of water it borders?
Delaware is neither. It is middle ground. far east coast on the Atlantic. Bordered by new jersey, penn, maryland and virginia.
QuoteWhat is Delaware's proper abbreviation? What do you mean you don't know without looking it up?
DE
Which is further east Vermont or New Hampshire? Which of the two is more arrow at the bottom? Which is the largest New England State in land mass? Where does the Appalachian Trail start in the north? Where does it end? Do you care? ;D
[/quote]NH is the farthest east and is widest at the bottom vermont is the narrow one. Maine has the largest land mass, and the Appalachian trail doesn't start in the north it starts at Springer mountain 8 miles north west of Amicolola Falls Georgia, on the sacred indian grounds of the Coosa Indian tribes.
THe trail ends in Mount Katahdin Maine :P
And I did not look all this up either.
Pretty good, but you did miss Delaware's proper abbreviation. It's Del. DE is just for the post office. All states have two letter post office abbreviations, but they are meant for the post office only. As the years pass though they may be accepted because nobody cares that much.. When kids are in school they don't see the relevance of a lot in their lives. They don't care who a bunch of old dead men were who we knew as the "great explorers" either. We've been to the moon, who cares about that old bunch. When some guy goes around the world in a balloon, who cares about Magellan...yawn. We know now that much of the old stories about Columbus aren't really true, but they were believed for so long they have become symbolic. There's nothing wrong with that. Christmas wasn't on Dec. 25th either and our calendar is just one of many. So what!? Shall we ditch Christmas because we know it's wrong? Why? Life goes on, discoveries are made, history gets re- written for better or worse. Who decides whether we teach that there are 9 planets or more? You won't ever get a consensus about anything in a school curriculum. So we just plug along doing the best we can and try to put up with the attacks and name calling that don't solve anything.
No. What happens is that the left tries to divert from the problem by offering strawman arguments.
Define failing...how about 32 million americans that cannot read or write as a direct result of the pubic school system. If that doesn't define it for you, then nothing will.
QuoteLife goes on, discoveries are made, history gets re- written for better or worse. Who decides whether we teach that there are 9 planets or more? You won't ever get a consensus about anything in a school curriculum. So we just plug along doing the best we can and try to put up with the attacks and name calling that don't solve anything.
Exactly
You know what, the name calling and attacks might not solve anything but at least they bring to light issues that teachers, unions, administrators, and school boards, sit on their asses and try to ignore.
As for a consensus...how about doing away with prayer in school, not teaching creationism, treating the Confederate flag as a hate symbol, teaching so-called "Diversity". Parents may not agree with these, but school officals sure as hell do. Liberal, progressive consensus across the board.
You know what Varmit...you are right...PARTIALLY. What they CALL diversity teaching ISN'T really...if it was TRULY diversity teaching.....the Confederate flag would be presented as a symbol of certain poeples HERITAGE instead of as a hate symbol.....kids would KNOW that they can pray ANYtime they want to just by closin their eyes AND that they don't HAVE to......they would teach BOTH creationism AND evolution.....they would teach why billy has two mommies and why it's ok NOT to think it's right......how to be safe having sex AND that it's BEST to wait..... AND parents would SUPPORT said teaching. That would be too friggin easy though and nobody would have the UPPER hand which is REALLY what it's all about.
Pam, I can agree with all that except for the prayer thing, and the upper hand bit.
Why do people think that schools teach that the confederate flag is a hate symbol? I've seen that on TV and all and a great many people believe it, but I've never bumped into that at school. The two Mommies business I understand because it could be asked by elementary kids, but I never had to deal with it, so I don't know quite how I'd handle it if it came up at school. Some people may be making a big deal out of nothing. It's not unusual to have lots of non traditional families. We always have had kids who have been raised by grandparents or aunts or uncles or guardians or some combination.Or second marriages where the step father doesn't adopt the child so the last name is different. It's only recently that some people took issue with parts of it. How is a child reared by two maiden aunts any different than by a gay couple? I'd rather see that than a string of foster parents, some of whom might be abusive, or placement in an orphanage. Considering all the mess now about predatory priests all over the country, some folks might be wise to keep their opinions to themselves! :P
Diane, just because you have never seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. My Freshman year in highschool (1991) I attended Goose Creek High School in S. Carolina. I was sent home for wearing a Confederate Flag t-shirt. The principle stated that such symbols are offensive and will not be tolerated. This confused me greatly seeing as how no one was being sent home for wearing Malcom X shirts or african medalions.
The two mommies thing isn't about non-traditional familes, it is about teaching children that homosexuality is "okay". Schools never offer oppossing viewpoints on this subject. Its always "John has two mommies, and its okay because some people are different and we should accept the way they choose to live." This goes against what quite a few children learn at home.
Even if a child is raised by two aunts or uncles or whatever that live together, thats not the point. Teaching children that homosexuality is alright is the problem. Yes, children should be made aware of homosexual people, however the morality of it should be left up to the parents, not the school.
When i was in school, nobody taught anything about homosexuality. I think the reasoning behind it was that people are generally anti-homosexual because of their religous viewpoints. Opinions and religious viewpoints don't have a place in school, school is about facts. That goes for everything, just like homosexuality shouldn't be endorsed because its an opinion, the same is true for creationism.
Creation is true. It's your opinion that it's not.
Varmit, in South Carolina? Sounds like his personal problem unless the state had gotten into it somehow...that's weird. I did make one kid turn his t-shirt inside out one day though. It was a Bart Simpson shirt that said " I'm Bart Simpson, who the hell are you?" I told him I wasn't going to look at that all day... My room, my rules. He never wore it to school again. As far as the homosexual thing, I hate to see such a big deal made of it. To me that's like telling someone it's wrong to be black or Irish or Italian. It just comes with your body. I'm not sure how schools got pushed into dealing with it. Probably not such a great idea. But what is it kids are always told when they are uncomfortable with something? Talk to parents. If that's where the trouble is, talk to a trusted teacher, doctor or minister. You just wouldn't believe the stuff I heard and had to sort out. By the way, why would high school kids wear a Malcolm X shirt in 1991? He died 'way back in 1965...my era, not yours. I don't doubt you, I just think that's weird.
In my opinion the worst thing about the public schools right now. The children have no respect for the teachers, parents have no control and the schools are required to have an alternative school for kids that do not behave. What happened to the day of parents teaching their children right from wrong at home?
Quote from: Jane on November 29, 2009, 03:28:43 PM
In my opinion the worst thing about the public schools right now. The children have no respect for the teachers, parents have no control and the schools are required to have an alternative school for kids that do not behave. What happened to the day of parents teaching their children right from wrong at home?
Of course, in the olden days the school used to paddle the kids too. I can remember many a child pulled out of class and paddled with a big wooden paddle. Straightened a lot of them up too and a lot of them would get it again from mom and dad after the parents were called. There used to be this wonderful thing called discipline. No body believes in it now and now if you spank your child in public you run of the risk of having Child Services called on you for abuse and then you have the TV shows that are for kids that show nothing but children AND wives being totally disrespectful to their husbands and kids sit and soak all this stuff in and then we wonder why they act like heathens.
Why do parents let the kids watch shows like that? I sure wouldn't. But then some people on the forum insist it's alright for writers to be disrespectful to one another and "stop being thin skinned", put on "big girl panties","deal with it" and on and on. Sounds like a double standard to me. Or is it like a right of passage? At 21 you can be as rude as you want to anybody you want and that's OK? It's no wonder kids are rude if that's the way parents act at home. How can a person be a rude snot and expect their kids to have manners? Can one put proper behavior on and take it off like a coat? Perhaps if parents set a better example themselves and stopped bad mouthing others the kids would follow.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 29, 2009, 08:23:58 PM
Why do parents let the kids watch shows like that? I sure wouldn't. But then some people on the forum insist it's alright for writers to be disrespectful to one another and "stop being thin skinned", put on "big girl panties","deal with it" and on and on. Sounds like a double standard to me. Or is it like a right of passage? At 21 you can be as rude as you want to anybody you want and that's OK? It's no wonder kids are rude if that's the way parents act at home. How can a person be a rude snot and expect their kids to have manners? Can one put proper behavior on and take it off like a coat? Perhaps if parents set a better example themselves and stopped bad mouthing others the kids would follow.
Have you sat down and watched kids shows these days? And I'm on talking on Disney Channel and other kids channels. This is just a theme of disrespectful kids and it's in subtle ways a lot of times.
As far as the forums, you know, you really have to take people's "personalities" on forums with a grain of salt. People tend to act different and take liberties on forums that they wouldn't in real life. They hide behind the anonymity that forums offer. Not true of everyone, but generally speaking, people tend to act different and treat other people differently on forums than they would in real life. Also, a lot of times you're talking to "screen names" rather than real flesh and blood people that have feelings. shrug It's easier for people to act like butt-heads online.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 29, 2009, 02:56:29 PM
As far as the homosexual thing, I hate to see such a big deal made of it. To me that's like telling someone it's wrong to be black or Irish or Italian. It just comes with your body. I'm not sure how schools got pushed into dealing with it. Probably not such a great idea. But what is it kids are always told when they are uncomfortable with something? Talk to parents.
Diane, I am not going to argue about that, it is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, the problem that arises with this issue is when teachers approach the subject with that line of thought and lesson plan. They teach that homosexuality is as natural as a persons race, I disagree. Taking that approach to it goes against what I teach my children.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 29, 2009, 02:56:29 PM
By the way, why would high school kids wear a Malcolm X shirt in 1991? He died 'way back in 1965...my era, not yours. I don't doubt you, I just think that's weird.
Jeez, Diane, where were you in the early 90's? Malcolm X may have died in '65 but popular music groups like Public Enemy, NWA, IceT have used him as an Icon in their music. It was through their music and videos that young urban blacks vented their frustration (however misguided it might be) at evil white men for keeping them down.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 29, 2009, 08:23:58 PM
At 21 you can be as rude as you want to anybody you want and that's OK? It's no wonder kids are rude if that's the way parents act at home. How can a person be a rude snot and expect their kids to have manners? Can one put proper behavior on and take it off like a coat? Perhaps if parents set a better example themselves and stopped bad mouthing others the kids would follow.
To me that is taking the line of adults treating children as equals, they're not. My kids have seen and heard me cuss, flip off other drivers, make comments about the president, and even people on this forum. However, I also tell my kids that no matter how they see me act sometimes they will be polite and use their manners, when they grow up and move out they can act however they want. But while they are living under my roof they will follow my rules.
lol. Is it any surprise that billy is the "do as i say not as i do" type?
Quote from: Anmar on November 29, 2009, 11:35:16 PM
lol. Is it any surprise that billy is the "do as i say not as i do" type?
When you get down to it Anmar ALL of us are :)
I'm in the same boat as him on this one :P
Quote from: Anmar on November 29, 2009, 11:35:16 PM
lol. Is it any surprise that billy is the "do as i say not as i do" type?
Billy is also free white and over 21. His kids aren't. His house his rules. I had the same rules in my home and my kids also to this day say yes ma'am and no ma'am yes sir no sir and are respectful and their over 21.
They learned that respect is demanded of them as children, but earned when they are adults by being respectful.
what does being white have to do with anything?
Varmit,I must have been under a rock during the 90's if the Malcolm X thing was big on shirts. I remember the ugly music, but not around here so much. Probably in some of the rough parts of Wilmington. I just don't remember the shirts though. It was about that time that a lot of schools put a stop to "message" t-shirts of any kind except sports logo shirts, provided they didn't have an offensive message.
Lighten up Anmar. Being" free , white and 21" is just an old saying, back before your time.
ahh, i've never heard that saying.
We talked about that old saying on here one time. Perhaps you hadn't joined us yet. I think we had been talking about voting.
Quote from: jarhead on November 30, 2009, 10:47:12 AM
Lighten up Anmar. Being" free , white and 21" is just an old saying, back before your time.
Mooncalf is just getting his kicks, Jarhead. He's doing what he only knows how to do.... stirring the pot.... maybe he doesn't like whites? Hmmmm.... that could be.
Diane, Malcome X and Che Guevara shirts were very big in the 90's and still are today in some parts of the Hood. I used to have a Che shirt that I wore saying, "Che (his picture) Sucks!
But getting back to "What are public schools *really* doing?" There is a lot of good pro and con that has been mentioned on this post... but what I have to say.... getting down to the nitty-gritty.... is.... People.... I hate to tell you this but, the Public Schools system of the US has crashed and burned! No longer are our children the best educated in the world so get over it. Now.. today... 2009... our scholars rank among the less well educated even among a few of the third world countries. This is a SHAME we have brought upon ourselves by inviting the Federal Government and the Unions into our schools.
One-room schoolhouses turned out scholars of unequaled accomplishment when compared to today's graduates. A high school education... just 50 years ago.... is the equivalent of a college degree today. Some of our Public School teachers are barely qualified to teach. But, they have a Union to see that they are paid well, whether the can teach or not! Oh, you thought teachers unions were for the welfare of the students ??? Surely you jest!
Our local school boards have gorged themselves from the federal trough at the expense of local control of the curriculum and the rules and regulations.
Pupils are not challenged by the courses they study and fall short of goals set by the federal Government. So, the schools are now "teaching the tests". Indoctrinate the students in the questions and answers on the test in hopes of attaining the sought after number of students passing the tests. A well-rounded education is lost to the efforts to make a good showing on the tests.
Students are forced to remain in school even though they have no interest in what is being taught and are a distraction to that handful of youngsters who really do want to learn.
Self-esteem is the number one course of study. Our students are dumb as fence posts but, by golly, they think highly of themselves! They can't read their diplomas but they sure do feel good about it!
So what do we do about it?
Maybe I'm old fashion but, take back our schools for a start. Refuse federal money and all the strings that go with it. If we have to teach school, again, in one-room school buildings, then so be it.
Test the teachers. If they have no business in a classroom, see to it that they are removed.
One way of doing it is make school voluntary. If a student does not want to be there, then don't make them. This will allow those students who do wish an education to get one without the continuous interruptions by the bored kids who'd rather be someplace else.
Discipline? Yes. Expulsion. Period. Expel troublemakers for a few days, a few weeks, or a full school year, or even forever, depending on the infraction. Make school a serious business again. We owe an environment, suitable for learning, to those students who are there for the purpose of learning and making a better life for themselves, their families, and for our society.
We can take our schools back. We have to want to do so and we have to be ready to make the sacrifices necessary to insure our children a good education, not the pitiful excuse for an education they are getting now.
One of a parent's primary obligations, as a parent, is to see that their children have a shot at the brass ring in life. The first, and most fundamental, step in that process is a solid education.
Government vouchers were killed by the teachers unions because they rightly understood that the public school system would crumble, and collapse, as parents pulled their children out of those near useless institutions and placed them in private schools where they, the parents, had some say, and some control, over the quality of education their kids were getting.
The public school system is near collapse right now. I don't think a collapse of the US Public Education System would be a bad thing, actually. When an institution is so badly damaged, and no longer serves it's primary purpose, it should be trashed and a new institution begun in its place. We desperately need to create an institution to educate our kids.
Parents, we owe our kids that! We owe them a chance to make the best of their talents. We owe them a shot at a good, solid, education. Get them out of the public schools and into a private, or parochial, school where there are qualified teachers who still have an incentive to teach our kids.... the will to teach our kids... and the desire to teach our kids.
The public school system in America is a failure. It should be put out of its misery.... my two-cents on this subject, anyway.
Quote from: Warph on November 30, 2009, 11:09:30 AM
Mooncalf is just getting his kicks, Jarhead. He's doing what he only knows how to do.... stirring the pot.... maybe he doesn't like whites? Hmmmm.... that could be.
WARPH, I don't think most Muslims like whites.
Silly Frawin,
more than a third of muslims are white.
Quote from: Anmar on November 30, 2009, 11:24:30 AM
Silly Frawin,
more than a third of muslims are white.
LIES LIES LIES!!!!! Nothing but 3rd world propaganda!
Oh.. sorry... I guess somebody was channeling through my keyboard.
Quote from: frawin on November 30, 2009, 11:19:49 AM
WARPH, I don't think most Muslims like whites.
Quote from: Anmar on November 30, 2009, 11:24:30 AM
Silly Frawin,
more than a third of muslims are white.
I believe that Frank was referring to the middle-eastern muslim.
Warph, i'm guessing by your other post that you are jewish. you of all people should know that arabs, like jews, are semetic people. Semites are ethnically white.
WARPH, why am I not surprised you once wore an offensive t-shirt? Some people are just looking to get punched out I guess. ;D
By the way you have managed to fatally cheapen my effort to be the best teacher I could be. Thanks so much for letting me know that I wasted my life. You have probably managed to insult a lot of caring teachers who read this forum, including all of Elk County.
Also, I worked out that a teacher's contact time with students is about 1,330 hours per school year. Kids also spend 4,730 hours with people other than teachers, mostly their parents. I don't think kids spend more time with their teachers than they do with their parents. School contact days are about 7 out of 24 hours per day 5 days a week for 180 to 190 days per year. I see none of you critics have made any comment on year round schools. Some parents love them and some don't.
I think I'll just go cut my throat.
Oh hell Diane just let it go in one ear and out the other. There are a lot of families right there in Elk county who had teachers in the family who should be insulted by the derogatory stuff bein thrown around at teachers.
A FEW of those teachers made a difference to me when I went to school there and a few made a difference to my boys.
Mrs. Helen Vinette was one of them. I STILL remember some of the french she taught me and that's been a few moons ago.
Buddy Miller was another one......he helped me figure out algebra.
So don't sweat it...I'm sure there are people out there who YOU made a difference to.
Thanks Pam, I just get tired of "all the all teachers this and all the schools that". There are some bad schools and some bad teachers out there. Usually they are found deep in the rural south and deep in the rough areas of the biggest, oldest cities. Rarely do bad small town or suburban schools and teachers last long without a change at the top or a change at the bottom. Nobody deliberately sets out to be bad at something, but some just can't cut it it, just like at other jobs.
I have a friend in her mid 20's who wants to be a teacher...nice girl. Never did pass the UD teacher proficiency exam, (our "boards," if you would) after 3 tries. Sweet girl, but her written grammar and spelling is unbelievably bad. I think she spell and grammar checked her way through school. She still wants to teach, but will have to go back and take a bunch of remedial courses, take several of her methods classes over and student teach again before she sits for the exam one more time. In the meantime she has become a single mother with lots of bill to pay. She's working, but not doing what she really wants to do. It will be years before she gets another chance. Yes, I think I have made a difference in a lot of lives. (When you get invited to a student's wedding many year later ya must have done something right!) I really don't like the negative generalizations and name calling that comes so easily for a few. It shows a general lack of respect of people in general and other people's ideas that I just don't understand. I'm not even sure why education got relegated to the politics thread. To me its too important for that. As an editor I could probably rewrite the nastiest posts, take out the unnecessary name calling and personal baiting and still have something of substance to read. The nastiness devalues it for me. Yes, I know it's my problem because I do care. I think there may be some personality disorders showing up out there. I just have to shake my head.
Hey speaking of bad spelling and grammar...
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 30, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
Thanks Pam, I just get tired of "all the all teachers this and all the schools that". There are some bad schools and some bad teachers out there. Usually they are found deep in the rural south and deep in the rough areas of the biggest, oldest cities. Rarely do bad small town or suburban schools and teachers last long without a change at the top or a change at the bottom. Nobody deliberately sets out to be bad at something, but some just can't cut it it, just like at other jobs.
I have a friend in her mid 20's who wants to be a teacher...nice girl. Never did pass the UD teacher proficiency exam, (our "boards," if you would) after 3 tries. Sweet girl, but her written grammar and spelling is unbelievably bad. I think she spell and grammar checked her way through school. She still wants to teach, but will have to go back and take a bunch of remedial courses, take several of her methods classes over and student teach again before she sits for the exam one more time. In the meantime she has become a single mother with lots of bill to pay. She's working, but not doing what she really wants to do. It will be years before she gets another chance. Yes, I think I have made a difference in a lot of lives. (When you get invited to a student's wedding many year later ya must have done something right!) I really don't like the negative generalizations and name calling that comes so easily for a few. It shows a general lack of respect of people in general and other people's ideas that I just don't understand. I'm not even sure why education got relegated to the politics thread. To me its too important for that. As an editor I could probably rewrite the nastiest posts, take out the unnecessary name calling and personal baiting and still have something of substance to read. The nastiness devalues it for me. Yes, I know it's my problem because I do care. I think there may be some personality disorders showing up out there. I just have to shake my head.
Please tell me you didn't teach spelling and grammar ;)
The one that never makes a mistake is the one that never does anything. :P
Sometimes ya just have to tell it like it is and you've made it pretty plain there, Warph.
Stay on 'em.
Diane, you say that there's bad teachers and bad schools in the deep rural South.
What makes you special? Could it be that you live in the north or is it your government
education?
Hey, you did really read it! That was my point exactly. Lot's of people make determinations about things by using very flimsy, 3rd hand or nonexistent verified information, just like what I wrote about schools in the south. I have absolutely NO knowledge of how they are, except what several of my friends who live in North Carolina and Georgia have to say. Several are teachers, and one just retired from being a principal of a year 'round school in Apex. To me they sound like very ordinary schools that have the same problems, no more and no less than what we've got here. I think some of you think I look down on country people...not hardly, I'm one too. I grew up out in the country. Loved it. 6 miles from school, 3 miles to the nearest little town and 2 miles to the little general store. I came here because that's where the UD and work was and we just stayed. If I'd had my druthers I'd have had 20 acres or so out somewhere with a few horses, chickens and a beef or two. But teaching, the Planning Dept. and the Fire Co. took all our time. By the way, I watched the tape on the textbook business. It wasn't what I expected. I could have been much harsher myself. I used to catch textbook errors quite often and always turned them in to the publisher. I was happy to see that Delaware was not on the map of states that allow themselves to be influenced by the book publishers. Some of it is a real textbook racket and getting worse. There always was some horse trading in the text book industry, but experienced teachers could usually see through the nonsense.
For all of you who are in the "theres no indoctrination" crowd, just thought I throw this out there.....
StarTribune.com St. Paul, Minnesota
At U, future teachers may be reeducated
November 21st, 2009 – 7:49 PM
Do you believe in the American dream — the idea that in this country, hardworking people of every race, color and creed can get ahead on their own merits? If so, that belief may soon bar you from getting a license to teach in Minnesota public schools — at least if you plan to get your teaching degree at the University of Minnesota's Twin Cities campus.
In a report compiled last summer, the Race, Culture, Class and Gender Task Group at the U's College of Education and Human Development recommended that aspiring teachers there must repudiate the notion of "the American Dream" in order to obtain the recommendation for licensure required by the Minnesota Board of Teaching. Instead, teacher candidates must embrace — and be prepared to teach our state's kids — the task force's own vision of America as an oppressive hellhole: racist, sexist and homophobic.
The task group is part of the Teacher Education Redesign Initiative, a multiyear project to change the way future teachers are trained at the U's flagship campus. The initiative is premised, in part, on the conviction that Minnesota teachers' lack of "cultural competence" contributes to the poor academic performance of the state's minority students. Last spring, it charged the task group with coming up with recommendations to change this. In January, planners will review the recommendations and decide how to proceed.
The report advocates making race, class and gender politics the "overarching framework" for all teaching courses at the U. It calls for evaluating future teachers in both coursework and practice teaching based on their willingness to fall into ideological lockstep.
The first step toward "cultural competence," says the task group, is for future teachers to recognize — and confess — their own bigotry. Anyone familiar with the reeducation camps of China's Cultural Revolution will recognize the modus operandi.
The task group recommends, for example, that prospective teachers be required to prepare an "autoethnography" report. They must describe their own prejudices and stereotypes, question their "cultural" motives for wishing to become teachers, and take a "cultural intelligence" assessment designed to ferret out their latent racism, classism and other "isms." They "earn points" for "demonstrating the ability to be self-critical."
The task group opens its report with a model for officially approved confessional statements: "As an Anglo teacher, I struggle to quiet voices from my own farm family, echoing as always from some unstated standard. ... How can we untangle our own deeply entrenched assumptions?"
The goal of these exercises, in the task group's words, is to ensure that "future teachers will be able to discuss their own histories and current thinking drawing on notions of white privilege, hegemonic masculinity, heteronormativity, and internalized oppression."
Future teachers must also recognize and denounce the fundamental injustices at the heart of American society, says the task group. From a historical perspective, they must "understand that ... many groups are typically not included" within America's "celebrated cultural identity," and that "such exclusion is frequently a result of dissimilarities in power and influence." In particular, aspiring teachers must be able "to explain how institutional racism works in schools."
After indoctrination of this kind, who wouldn't conclude that the American Dream of equality for all is a cruel hoax? But just to make sure, the task force recommends requiring "our future teachers" to "articulate a sophisticated and nuanced critical analysis" of this view of the American promise. In the process, they must incorporate the "myth of meritocracy in the United States," the "history of demands for assimilation to white, middle-class, Christian meanings and values, [and] history of white racism, with special focus on current colorblind ideology."
What if some aspiring teachers resist this effort at thought control and object to parroting back an ideological line as a condition of future employment? The task group has Orwellian plans for such rebels: The U, it says, must "develop clear steps and procedures for working with non-performing students, including a remediation plan."
And what if students' ideological purity is tainted once they begin to do practice teaching in the public schools? The task group frames the danger this way: "How can we be sure that teaching supervisors are themselves developed and equipped in cultural competence outcomes in order to supervise beginning teachers around issues of race, class, culture, and gender?"
Its answer? "Requir[e] training/workshop for all supervisors. Perhaps a training session disguised as a thank you/recognition ceremony/reception at the beginning of the year?"
When teacher training requires a "disguise," you know something sinister is going on
Unfortunately we'll lose this country with teachers like that educating the young. At least for now my grandson is getting a proper education and one that still incorporates the American Dream as well as not having to be subjected to this pansy ass diversity crap that pretty much obliterates gender differences. I would say that while he's getting a good education, one that teaches individuality, he'll be one of the few that will be directing the masses to their assigned slots in the corporate work camps.
Corporate work camps? What do you mean?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on December 02, 2009, 11:10:11 AM
Corporate work camps? What do you mean?
Go to any office building and look around. its a work camp. everyone is slotted in thier own little cubicle, doing the same thing every day, making thier same paycheck from month to month. People settle too easily.
Individuals go get what they want. They don't allow the corporate bosses dictate to them what they can and can't have. Their the ones who go to a employer and say i'll do x for y and if you don't like it your competitor will give it to me. This requires using critical thinking skills and preparation above and beyond what the Government schools give. That means you have to take what skills you do have and MAKE your own opportunity by creating it instead of waiting on someone to have a job opening in the general area of mediocracy.
Quote from: srkruzich on December 02, 2009, 11:35:59 AM
Go to any office building and look around. its a work camp. everyone is slotted in thier own little cubicle, doing the same thing every day, making thier same paycheck from month to month. People settle too easily.
Individuals go get what they want. They don't allow the corporate bosses dictate to them what they can and can't have. Their the ones who go to a employer and say i'll do x for y and if you don't like it your competitor will give it to me. This requires using critical thinking skills and preparation above and beyond what the Government schools give. That means you have to take what skills you do have and MAKE your own opportunity by creating it instead of waiting on someone to have a job opening in the general area of mediocracy.
Of course, even AFTER you've done all that, then you still end up in the same cubicle doing the same thing day in and day out and making the same paycheck...................unless you jump from job to job. That's the way most of us have to live if we're to pay our bills. :P
Thanks for that Star Trib post, Varmit. It adds to the ever growing list of things we see taking place across our country that are slowly dissolving what we had come to know as America. Inch by inch. One mind at a time. Officially sanctioned brainwashing destined to change our direction to one where we embrace the processes of socialism and eventually communism.
Remember, socialism is only a transitory state. It is the transition from capitalism to communism. And many who endorse the 'ideas' espoused by the theory that is communism embrace the fundamentally flawed vision that a pure communist state provides for a 'heaven on earth' utopia. Sorry, that's delusion at its' best. The proletariat in the old USSR was promised that once the ruling class had 'set everything up' there would be no need for 'government rule' and that everybody would work in the collective without need for further rule. Well, the proletariat never gets 'good enough' to be loosed from totalitarian control. What a surprise: The utopia never comes!
Where, oh where to begin? You begin with Section II of the Communist Manifesto: "10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc." And as Varmit's post reveals, you must first 'educate the educators'. Only then can you change the mindset of the masses. Now tie this with the other information we have about textbooks and how they have been 'changing'. Danger Will Robinson, Danger!
But some will say this is an isolated case. Well, take a hard look at some other points made in the Manifesto, compare them to what you know about America today, and see how far we've come:
Communist Manifesto, Section II
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.
Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. (Eminent Domain abuses, 'public' housing, etc.)
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. (Thak you, Mr. Roosevelt!)
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. (As of today, Congress debates making the inheritence/death tax permanent!)
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. (Confiscate the drug dealers houses, cars, etc. and use them for state purposes)
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. (Federal Reserve, bank bailouts w/ 'taxpayer' interests)
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. (FAA, NTSB, FCC, FDA, etc. ad nauseum)
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. (The Farm Bill, government subsidies for farms, ethanol production and other 'green stuff', the CRP programs, giant corporate farm operations, and now the purchase (taking) of over 1 million acres of the flint hills by establishing 'easements' where what is done on those lands is dictated by the 'master planners'.)
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. (Amnesty for illegals who do 'jobs Americans won't due' and to preserve labor in agriculture and construction, etc. Big corporate involvement in farming.)
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. (Corn & the ethanol game come to mind. Urban sprawl.)
Inch by inch. Wake up, people. This is NOT the America that our founders or even our great grandparents knew or envisioned. This is NOT the America that grew and established the highest standard of living ever known to mankind.
No, this IS us today, allowing all that property, promise, prosperity and opportunity to be taken over and controlled by the few, the statists.
This IS the foundation of what we saw in the old USSR, Eastern Europe and some South American countries. This IS the road to the demise of the 'American Dream'. And if we continue, that dream will surely become a nightmare!
But, continue to focus on your card and word games, your weekly addiction to American Idol and the NFL, your obsessive need to know what Tiger Woods *really* did. Stay aloof, uninvolved and silent. Make your priorities getting the latest 'goodies' that the merchandisers make available to keep you entertained. Ignore the the reality of what's happening. Have fun, be happy. As for me and my family, we're preparing for what any fool with open eyes and a lick of sense can see coming.
A little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump. Seems to me there's a lot of leaven in the lump today!
Conspiracy? Who knows. Theory? No Way. Dangerous? You betcha!
Theres a lot of people posting that public schools kill creativity, etc.
How many people on this forum are Entreprenuers? how many of you own a business? There's Theresa i know, myself, who else?
I went to public schools and I'm pretty sure Theresa did too, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote from: Anmar on December 02, 2009, 02:37:08 PM
Theres a lot of people posting that public schools kill creativity, etc.
How many people on this forum are Entreprenuers? how many of you own a business? There's Theresa i know, myself, who else?
I went to public schools and I'm pretty sure Theresa did too, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
I own & operate two businesses. Yes, I did the 'public school' thing. No, it didn't kill alll my creativity. Yes, it did attempt to indoctrinate me in some agenda driven philosophies that were antithetical to the founding principles of this country. No, all folks who get a flu shot avoid getting the flu! And not all who attend public schools are successfully indoctrinated in those agenda driven philosophies. But that's not the point.
The questions remains.... what
are our public schools *really* doing. The evidence suggests that they are more and more engaging in behavior modifications and criteria that dumb down our kids and make them more amenable to future 'change'. Change that in some cases does NOT follow the basics of our founding. The evidence further suggests that these 'projects & programs' are well supported by outside influences who have agendas that are contrary to our founding principles. The evidence further suggests that these modifications and influences are having their desired effects. To wit: The slow destruction of individual liberty and the replacement of that liberty with a dependency on 'the government' or its' agencies. Ultimately resulting in a politically correct collective that is NOT the embodiment of real individualism and individual creativity.
Why is it that people who don't like the way our founders established our system don't just relocate their butts to any of a number of other countries more well suited to their anti-republic, anti-capitalist, pro-socialist, 'big government is good' views? That may be indicator of the one flaw in the American founding: We provide a means to be dismantled ourselves from within. They used to call it freedom, liberty and the rule of law.
Isn't that the same old sack cloth and ashes that has been going on for a very ,very long time? This country has always had a percentage of depressed, back cloud," the world ends tomorrow" people. We've always had up and down cycles. I'm still waiting so you can say "See I told you so," and have it mean something. During the fuel shortage in the 70's the dismal people hollered,That's it, we're doomed, the US will never be the same. Awful! The rest of us went about the business of making it work anyway and after a time things went back to normal.
Frankly, I always thought some of communism's ideas were adapted from the successes we've had here, not the other way around. Are you sure they aren't borrowing our ideas?
In the meantime, I'm headed to the fire hall to decorate with a bunch of hunky young fire fighters, most whom have done their military time now and aren't the least bit touchy about it. They know we love,'em, they know we consider them our finest patriots as soldiers AND firefighters, and they don't have to be reminded over and over or they get insecure about it.
As far as the cubical world I was never a part of it. But I can share one thing.You don't run off to the competition around here. When employees sign contracts they have to sign that they won't work for the competition for several years so you don't take company secrets with you.
Just out of curiosity, what do you have against sec.8 or public housing? You'd rather see more homeless?
Why don't I leave? You've got to be kidding.The system we have now has been very good to me. I had a job I was proud of, and have two businesses on the side that have been very successful. Even now I've got more offers of work than I can handle. I don't especially want to have to wear long dresses and shawls and give up some hard fought rights for myself and little girls everywhere. Why is "evidence"against education being collected, what do "they" plan to do with it? Create new, harder relevent curriculum? Suits me and teachers like me fine. Get it past all the parents...I wonder. Some parents would welcome it just as they are involved now ,others would fight against it. They just don't want to be part of the team and don't want change even it it makes things better.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on December 02, 2009, 03:33:36 PM
...
Frankly, I always thought some of communism's ideas were adapted from the successes we've had here, not the other way around. Are you sure they aren't borrowing our ideas?
Just out of curiosity, what do you have against sec.8 or public housing? You'd rather see more homeless?
Why don't I leave? You've got to be kidding.The system we have now has been very good to me. I had a job I was proud of, and have two businesses on the side that have been very successful. Even now I've got more offers of work than I can handle. I don't especially want to have to wear long dresses and shawls and give up some hard fought rights for myself and little girls everywhere. Why is "evidence"against education being collected, what do "they" plan to do with it? Create new, harder relevent curriculum? Suits me and teachers like me fine. Get it past all the parents...I wonder. Some parents would welcome it just as they are involved now ,others would fight against it. They just don't want to be part of the team and don't want change even it it makes things better.
Diane,
I think you are beginning to sound like the very evidence spoken of. You defend the group think about our public schools as if you had something to lose. It sounds as if some of the 'progressive' drivel made its way into your thinking along the way. What is it about inch by inch that you fail to grasp?
I guess you can't envision a society where 'government isn't the best answer'. And remember, public school teachers ARE goverment paid agents.
I didn't say I had any thing against Section 8 and/or public housing. Well... there are all those 'well meaning liberal programs' that are called The Projects in many of our major cities. I deal with landlords and tenant information every day, over 10,000 cases in the last year alone. Believe me, the government subsidized programs make slaves of both groups. Landlords and tenants. Talk about killing individualism and individual creativity!
"They just don't want to be part of the team..." Now there's a play right out of the Demoncrat playbook! Isolate em! If they disagree, they must be racist (or bigots, or homophobes, or right wing extremists), right? If they aren't with the 'team' they then are what, exactly? Wrong? Quick! Kim Jung Il... send them to the re-education camps! They aren't with the team! Hurry, they must not be allowed to infect the other comrades!
Well, sometimes the cancer gets so big that it's hard to distinguish it from the healthy tissue that it has surrounded.
Hmmm.... So being against your team is wrong? Who said your 'team' was right in the first place? Just curious.
Good grief. You mean when it comes to the education of children, the parents and teachers are NOT a team? I should leave the parents out of it? Like I said, ya get 28 parents together ya get at least 10 different ideas how the teacher should teach. I don't have to defend myself and I won't. Nor do I need to defend any "group." If you are anti public education fine, but I don't want to hear anybody complaining how expensive the alternatives are. The world chose to go to computers and things that make education very expensive. Yes, there are tons of money thrown at education and I sure don't know why the pendulum swings the way it does. I just don't see a big communist or socialist conspiracy going on. We teach every child to salute the flag and repeat the pledge...to the republic, not to the constitution, by the way. Isn't that indoctrination too? What's wrong with that? Some things we do make schools and communities run more smoothly. If I chose not to sent the lunch count to the cafeteria because I'm choosing to be independent that day and I don't feel like being part of the herd, am I wrong? Or am I making someone else's life harder unnecessarily. When is forming a habit not indoctrination? When is learning something education not indoctrination? If the music teacher has all the kids stand up and learn to sing America all together at one time...education or indoctrination? Is basic training education or indoctrination? I guess it depends on the person doing it. Yes, inch by inch does mean something to me. That goes on in many forms all the time .Then the pendulum swings too far and it begins to swing back the other way. There was a "look and guess" period in reading. Some kids thrived with it, most didn't. I learned and taught phonics.I got caught up the the "New Math" It does work fine for some kids, but it is extremely slow. Even the best students plodded through the process. I've got to go.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on December 02, 2009, 03:33:36 PM
As far as the cubical world I was never a part of it. But I can share one thing.You don't run off to the competition around here. When employees sign contracts they have to sign that they won't work for the competition for several years so you don't take company secrets with you.
A contract like that won't hold up in a court of law. It has been tried before. The courts ruled that no employer can prevent a employee from making a living through contractual form. Now a 1 year no compete agreement can be held up in court but several years, i have never seen one hold up ever.
QuoteJust out of curiosity, what do you have against sec.8 or public housing? You'd rather see more homeless?
Simply that it is not available to those who really need it. Usually consumed by drug dealers and their ilk as well as welfare brood mares that drop kids every couple years so they can stay on the welfare.
I honestly don't know who I agree with and who I don't. I know I don't like the public school system and I started to dislike it when Christianity was tossed out the door and yet the celebrations of other religions and lifestyles were welcomed with open arms. I started to dislike it when basic education was tossed aside for teaching kids how to deal with their home life and friends and peers and all this other stuff that should be left at home and is none of the schools business. I started to dislike schools when they became silly in their "zero tolerance" and expelling kids for some of the most stupid stuff. It's like common sense just flew right out the window. I started to dislike the public schools when they thought, and are still toying with the idea, that more time away from parents and more time in the system would make better kids, examples of: longer schools days, longer school years even to the point of year round school, and lowering the compulsory school age. Children belong to parents. Children were give by God to parents to raise, not to the government to raise. I've even heard of a parent out here telling me that her son came home from school and told her that the school said he didn't need to listen to parents and that they didn't know anything and she's not the first one I've heard this from, but the first one out here.
My opinion is is that they should offer school vouchers and give parents the ability to choose private over public. I think even public schools should be privatized and taken out of the hands of government and do away with the NEA.
Quote from: Sarah on December 02, 2009, 06:15:48 PM
I honestly don't know who I agree with and who I don't. I know I don't like the public school system and I started to dislike it when Christianity was tossed out the door and yet the celebrations of other religions and lifestyles were welcomed with open arms. I started to dislike it when basic education was tossed aside for teaching kids how to deal with their home life and friends and peers and all this other stuff that should be left at home and is none of the schools business. I started to dislike schools when they became silly in their "zero tolerance" and expelling kids for some of the most stupid stuff. It's like common sense just flew right out the window. I started to dislike the public schools when they thought, and are still toying with the idea, that more time away from parents and more time in the system would make better kids, examples of: longer schools days, longer school years even to the point of year round school, and lowering the compulsory school age. Children belong to parents. Children were give by God to parents to raise, not to the government to raise. I've even heard of a parent out here telling me that her son came home from school and told her that the school said he didn't need to listen to parents and that they didn't know anything and she's not the first one I've heard this from, but the first one out here.
My opinion is is that they should offer school vouchers and give parents the ability to choose private over public. I think even public schools should be privatized and taken out of the hands of government and do away with the NEA.
Do you mean that you think private organizations should set up shop, that the government should tax everyone to subsidize poorer folks to purchase these services that they may not be able to afford, and all at the same time the government should offer a public option?
Are we talking about health care or education?
Quote from: Anmar on December 02, 2009, 06:22:38 PM
Do you mean that you think private organizations should set up shop, that the government should tax everyone to subsidize poorer folks to purchase these services that they may not be able to afford, and all at the same time the government should offer a public option?
Are we talking about health care or education?
So we should set up inferior government funded schools so that the poor people can go to school? We should allow the government to decide what our kids are taught because we want school to be free?
The bad situation with the gov't schools began much earlier than most of us
ever realized it. It was after the Civil War during re-construction that set this
"public" school thing in motion.
Quote from: redcliffsw on December 02, 2009, 07:51:49 PM
The bad situation with the gov't schools began much earlier than most of us
ever realized it. It was after the Civil War during re-construction that set this
"public" school thing in motion.
Yeah your right. They tried to re-educate the southerners by rewriting history in the hopes that the truth would be evicerated.
I would have to do some research, but I believe that it's Norway where the 'money follows the kid'. Essentially, the parents decide which school the child attends, and the government funding is allocated to that school. Kid moves, money moves. Failing school, no kids, no money. As I recall, they have some outstanding students and great test scores on international tests. I know our system sort of tries that with the state and fed allocating so much per enrolled student in each public school. But I don't believe our way is as extensive as the one I'm referencing.
As Sarah says, vouchers are probably the answer. Recent reports seem to indicate that the voucher program worked really well in DC. Of course, the 'we want the best for our kids demoncrats' are killing that program and fight school vouchers at every step. But Sarah hits that nail on the head too: Do away with unions for teachers and government employees.
Vouchers! Most certainly I'm opposed to 'em.
Explain please.
That's a broad subject but it is simply wrong for the gov't
to sponsor or to be involved in education. We've been trained
to recognize and accept public/gov't education and "vouchers"
is a continuation of that mindset.
Lots of other reasons too.
Do you really understand what the voucher system is?
Yes and the so-called voucher system is not a good thing.
Quote from: redcliffsw on December 02, 2009, 09:10:14 PM
That's a broad subject but it is simply wrong for the gov't
to sponsor or to be involved in education. We've been trained
to recognize and accept public/gov't education and "vouchers"
is a continuation of that mindset.
Lots of other reasons too.
I will agree that I don't like government being involved in education at all and prefer schools be privatized. Businesses, which is basically what a school is, tend to do better when there's competition around. But, if we MUST have the government involved, then I think vouchers to help kids go to private schools if the parents wish is the way to go. I like what Patriot said they do in Norway. The government just shifts funds depending on the school. But to buck the whole voucher thing on principle because we don't like the fact that government is involved in education.....while I might agree with that.....is sort of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. shrug Just my opinion of course.
I'm seeing what you are saying - but we should not be compromising
principles, because down thru the years, that's got us into this mess.
With vouchers, it's more opportunity for the gov't to attach strings and
run the show.
Quote from: redcliffsw on December 03, 2009, 07:22:15 AM
I'm seeing what you are saying - but we should not be compromising
principles, because down thru the years, that's got us into this mess.
With vouchers, it's more opportunity for the gov't to attach strings and
run the show.
But since the NEA and government is so huge, do you really think that there's ever any chance of it ever changing? Most people think that government schools are just the greatest things since sliced bread. Maybe, yeah, they have a few kinks to be worked out here and there, but overall, they are quite happy with their government funded schools. shrug People seem to be quite content with the statuesque as long as it doesn't disrupt their lives too much.
Sarah what you said is sad but true. As for changing...Yes it can be done. But it will require people getting involved and not just with the school boards or PTAs. But orgainizing, demonstrating, protesting...things that the "right" just don't often do. They have to take a page from the playbook of the other side. The feeling of "well, theres nothing really I can do" has invaded the Right like a cancer, and it needs to be cut out.
I live about 10 miles away from one of the country's worst school districts, Oakland.
Here in California, families can opt out of the public schools and send their kids to charter schools. The Charter schools recieve state money but have flexibility in the curriculum. They are still required to follow guidelines, they can't promote religion in the schools, but they can do just about anything else. The system works for families who care about their kids' education. Families who don't care just get stuck with the public schools. Now, public schools are having to work a little harder in order to keep their funding. When they lose students, they lose money.
I'm in favor of providing an altertanitive to families. My point is, this whole concept doesn't just pertain to the school system. When you apply the philisophical arguments to health care, you come up with the democrats' plan for a public option.
There's better and more alternatives to schooling without the gov't.
Quote from: Varmit on December 03, 2009, 10:14:38 AM
Sarah what you said is sad but true. As for changing...Yes it can be done. But it will require people getting involved and not just with the school boards or PTAs. But orgainizing, demonstrating, protesting...things that the "right" just don't often do. They have to take a page from the playbook of the other side. The feeling of "well, theres nothing really I can do" has invaded the Right like a cancer, and it needs to be cut out.
You're right. We tend to be rather quiet passivists sometimes. The liberals generally are in the minority but they have the biggest mouths. LOL
And, sadly, the squeaky wheel gets the grease! But I hope we're seeing that the conservative wheel (the one that largely keeps the system rolling with jobs n such) is drying out and starting to squeal like a stuck pig!