Jarhead,
Where did your father work for forty years on the Santa Fe?
Waldo,
He worked for the Eastern division out of Chanute. He retired with 30 years service but had worked almost 10 years and quit for a spell then went back so he lost almost 10 years seniority. As a pup I went on several train trips with him from Moline to Pawhuska, Ok. I remember the engineer was Charlie Shafer and I think he was from Moline. Must of been mid 60's he was Baggage Conductor on the KC to Tulsa run. He dead headed on a train from Independence to KC. I went that trip a couple times but that train "flew" compared to the ol work trains. All and all I think he was on the Howard Branch more than any other trains. Him and Ernie Condon were regulars on it. In Burke's book it mentions my Dad. I think it was in 1944 and Burke was a lad in Climax. He says something like " Brakeman Monty Edwards stood on top a reefer and threw chunks of ice to the track crew"
You are probably aware that James Burke was called the Climax Switchman. Sounds like the Howard Branch train crews were gambling heavy when they let a thirteen or fourteen old do the switching for them at Climax. You are probably also aware that the original track from Emporia to Severy was narrow gauge. Elk County was expecting narrow gauge, also. But on one Sunday in 1879, I think, the entire line was regauged to standard gauge track.
I applied to the Frisco accounting department in Springfield, Mo., many years ago and they were willing to hire me. However, I could only come "on board" in the lowest paying job. I would then have to wait my turn until all the old fogies ahead of me retired or someone quit and then I could advance. I knew that was the process on the rails but I had no clue that it also applied to their accounting department. From what I came away understanding, unless one was a total dud, advancement was more or less automatic when an opening came open.
Waldo, No, I didn't know about Burke or the narrow guage track. Didn't know too much about anything except I know I loved going on "train trips" with my dad. I'm sure in these times it would not be allowed.After my dad retired and had a stroke they used to stop the train right here in Longton and the old timers would walk the half block to say howdy to Pops and talk of old times. On one of the last Santa Fe trains to come thru Longton , they stopped and I knew the engineer from Chanute, and I asked him if there was any way he would let my youngest daughter ride the train. Guess the conductor must of approved of it too.They loaded her up in the engine and she got to ride to Moline where we picked her up. It was one of the high lights of her life. I'm sure if something bad had happened there would be some "heads rolling ". Forgot to say that my dad also spent quite a bit of time on the Chanute/ Winfield run and the Chanute/Arkansas City train. I think A Wellington run was included in one of the above two. You are making an old brain work overtime !! I was called to take a physical in 1973 by AT&SF as a fireman. I think it was the last bunch of firemen they hired for a long time. I had just started a new job and my new boss promised me the moon not to go so I didn't---what a sucker I was. Right after I got out of the military I worked a couple years at Moline rock quarry. I could always tell if my dad was the brakeman when they backed the cars up the tracks. Instead of setting the brakes he would just block the wheels with a chunk of wood or a rock. Then instead of just releasing the brake and start rolling you had to push the whole string of cars back off "his brake ". Think he did it just to make my work harder.
Thanks Jarhead and Waldo for the interesting discussion on the ATSF and Howard Branch. I am looking for more info on the Howard Branch line prior to ATSF. I will post anything I find.
Correct me if I am wrong but here is my starting point on the narrow gauge line on the Howard Branch. The narrow gauge line right of way was owned by the Elk & Chataqua lRR. I am unsure if it actually had track on it or if it ever had any trains run on it. Now off to find more info on the narrow gauge line on the Howard Branch pre-ATSF.
David
Waldo and David,
I am a rail history buff, but sadly lack the searchable resources that you have access to, or, if accessable via internet, the url's of the sites.
As you educate us, would you be willing to reveal sources, be them digital or print? I'd love to know what i'm missing.
Also, of particular interest to me, would be any information on "phantom" rail lines; ones that were chartered and never started, started and never finished, etc.
Thank you 'Oh Wise Ones"
Charles
My uncle tells of leaving Howard for the service via train.
He and some others headed towards Emporia on the Howard Branch. At Madison Junction the train went past the switch and stopped; the switch was thrown and then the train began backing to Hilltop.
Seventeen miles later at Hilltop the train stopped to pick up a lone can of milk. The train then proceeded forward going back to Madison Junction and then on to Emporia. All this took place at around fifteen or twenty miles per hour.
I think passenger service stopped on the Howard Branch in 1948 or 49 and steam operations stopped in 1953, or so. Probably around the same times for the line through Longton.
I think it is generally known that Moline had a "roundhouse" at one time and so did Howard. The one in Howard was torn up in an 1884 tornado when the town was end-of-track. It was never rebuilt. Grenola had a turntable in 1886 and I would assume a "roundhouse" to go with it.
I cannot help but thinking that at some time in the future, this country will regret having torn up so much track. UP is already experiencing a problem of not having enough track to handle the loads in some places.
Quote from: flintauqua on August 30, 2009, 11:40:23 AM
Waldo and David,
I am a rail history buff, but sadly lack the searchable resources that you have access to, or, if accessable via internet, the url's of the sites.
As you educate us, would you be willing to reveal sources, be them digital or print? I'd love to know what i'm missing.
Also, of particular interest to me, would be any information on "phantom" rail lines; ones that were chartered and never started, started and never finished, etc.
Thank you 'Oh Wise Ones"
Charles
Charles here are just a few links I found on the Howard Branch and ATSF. They have links too that they suggest. Also, look for the railfan webring. Don't forget to work the links below back to their homepage as well as through all the links. I will post links to whatever I find or think other rail fans may find helpful for research.
http://www.atsfrr.org/resources/Sandifer/Howard/index.htm
http://www.steamlocomotive.info
http://atsf.railfan.net/atsfpres/
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/
Kansas Maps with Rail Info.
http://specialcollections.wichita.edu/collections/maps/18801889.asp
Kansas Rail Links from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kansas_railroads
I'll stop there. Too many links doesn't help much. Those are some of my favorites.
Charles I have not looked at this link for a while but I think it may help in your research of phantom lines.
http://www.rrhistorical.com
and
http://www.rlhs.org/research.htm
There is a thin reference to narrow gauge in one of the web sites provided by David.
The first time that I became aware that narrow gauge was headed south for Howard was in reading a large book on the history of narrow gauge in the U.S. I do not remember the name. but it came from my local library.
There were a number of narrow gauge railroads planned for operation in Kansas. The locomotives were cheaper, the cars were cheaper, smaller and lighter rail was cheaper, roadbed grading was cheaper, operating costs were cheaper, etc.
The intent seemed to be to provide standard gauge on the main lines coming through the state and then narrow gauge would radiate out to provide service to the "Podunk" towns.
As the narrow gauge was headed to Severy, someone in railroad management somewhere apparently came to a realization the fallacy of off loading passengers and freight from standard gauge cars to narrow gauge cars, the time, costs, and inconvenience associated with it, etc. The mileage of track changed on one Sunday was around sixty-four miles. That feat was included in that book but it was also mentioned on a web site related to a museum site for one of the Howard Branch towns. I cannot recall which.
From reading the Elk County papers of the 1870s the railroad coming from Independence was supposed to be narrow gauge but Elk County voters defeated a bond issue for that purpose. The next bond issue presented was approved by Elk County for a standard gauge road. The Elk Valley & Western RR was a paper corporation that floated the bonds and built the track. An actual operating railroad leased the tracks and the lease payments retired the bonds. For the Howard Branch, it was the Elk & Chautauqua RR that handled the bonds and leased the track.
Jarhead ask me to post this picture..
Elk Falls Depot
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/marshalette/old%20pictures/ElkFallsdepot.jpg)
Thanks,
Scenes of horses together (both four-legged and iron) always make great photography.
May I ask a question about the photo?
My dad retired from ATSF after 40 years. He started as an assistant boiler maker; his job was cleaning the scale from inside the boilers at the North Wichita shops. He worked in the yards all that time except for WWII, when he worked in an aircraft plant as a welder. He was very skilled, we have a small piece that had been sent to Washington as an example of the work they were doing. He was very proud of that. I have a large photo of a steam engine and all the yard workers.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 31, 2009, 10:55:23 AM
May I ask a question about the photo?
I believe that is what a forum is for. To discuss things and ask questions. ;D
Jarhead, is there a date on the Elk Falls Depot picture? Wondered if you have any names on it as well? My mother grew up in the Elk Falls community and went to high school there.
Myrna
What is sitting right next to the engine? There is part of a cart showing that looks like it has wheels that would fit on the track and some sort of containers, but I don't think they are for milk. Then there is the two wheeled cart in front of it that has a driver but no horse? Am I blind? ;D
I took the photo over into photoshop and blew it up. I believe the cart next to the track does have milk cans on it. (Remember things other than milk were shipped in said cans) The gentleman in white shirt and dark pants and hat is standing between the "milk cart" and the two wheel cart that is not hitched up to anything.
Depot was on south side of the tracks, basically in the middle of Sedgwick St. between 5th and 6th, according to 1887 plat by L.H. Everts & Co., so we are looking east, train is westbound. This is confirmed by the shadows in the photo.
That's all I can make out at the moment.
Charles
Larger is always better. Thanks.
The milk cans look like they are on a standard RR baggage wagon.
I am wondering if those particular milk cans are made of something different from the metal milk cans that most of us would be most familiar with. Some web sites speak of tin milk cans and some speak of galvanized milk cans.
Waldo, my wife has the Milk Can that her family shipped cream on the train out of Piedmont in the 30s and 40s, it is medium thick metal, and wasn't galvanized.
My father's milk cans were steel also. They finally rusted out about ten years ago, after being unused for decades. He did have five gallon, bail handled heavy stainless steel buckets, but they weren't for shipping, they had lids that hooked into the vacumn for the actual milking process. I'm not a hands-on veteran of dairying, as father had quit dairying by the time I came along (thank goodness ;D)
Charles
I suppose I was trying to give that picture a pre-1900 date and it looked like those cans had a sleeve of some type around them--maybe to give them strength.
It just occurred to me as to whether they could have made steel cans back then.
A web site has new stainless steel milk cans for $199.
Old steel ones are around $100.
Waldo, I think those are insulation covers to keep the cans cooler in the summer and to keep from freezing in the Winter.
Thanks to everyone for your posts to this thread. If we taught history in school similar to this thread I think many more people would find history class exciting.
Earlier, Charles asked for us to post links or give sources for our information. I posted some. Later doing some research I found a link to a great resource, THIS FORUM!!!! Do a forum search on Howard Branch, Santa Fe, railroad etc. Poor Waldo we make him repeat himself every few years ;D. In particular there is a Howard Branch post were someone posted links to their train simulation program that recreates much of the Howard Branch. Very Cool!
David
Frawin, The picture of Elk Falls depot has no date on it but I have a picture of the west side of Elk Falls main street that went with that picture. Then I have another picture of Elk Falls main street that has the date 1916. From the time the first picture was taken until 1916 the buildings had changed a bunch. A young lad in the picture looks like it could be Waldo so I'd guess it was late 1800's :)
As soon as I learn how to post a picture I will post them--or better yet I will ask Teresa to do it---again.
I have an old milk can that is all rusted out but has a brass tag soldered on it that says, "return to R.F. Farris Elk City , Ks-----When full ship to Blue Valley Creamery Co. Parsons Ks.
Looking forward to these pictures, be sure and let us know when they are done. Better yet, get Teresa in an armlock and have her teach you how. (Then you can teach the rest of us! Ha!)
Jarhead, by chance do you have any pictures of the old mill? My maternal great grandfather helped build it. The replica that the Fry's Pottery shop has was made for them, by a relative on my paternal side of the house if you have seen it. I have never seen a picture of it.
On another note, Monty Edwards was on a train sitting on the siding in Moline several years ago. We happened to be in town and our boys were small, so we walked down to the depot to talk with him. He let the boys get up in the engine while it was idling on the side. They were in 7th heaven!
Myrna
If it was me in one of those old photos, I was probably looking for milk cans.
frawin,
The only picture I have of the mill is when the damn was made of logs so it must of been one of the first dams. My picture is too big to send but my nephew had them made smaller to hang in the local cafe and he has them on his computer and I'll try and get them sent. I see in the Elk County history book the picture of the Elk Falls depot that I sent. It says who is in the picture and says it was taken before 1917. I would guess many years before 1917
Jarhead, thanks alot, I will look in the Elk County History Book. The house where the Pottery place is in Elk Falls was my Great Aunt's house and was moved from uptown to where it is now.
Myrna
Did the pottery shop ever get moved? When we were there they were about to move up across the highway somewhere..I forget just where. That was your Great Aunt's house? Neat!
The house south of the "old Main Street" (Old Highway 160)0 where the Fry's lived and the shop was just to the east of the house was my Great Aunt's house. They (Fry's) had purchased Maude Frakes' old home and were refurbishing it. They now live there, I believe, but I do not know if the shop has been moved to the other location. Mrs. Frankes' is on the north side of (new) Highway 160 just at the edge of town.
Myrna
For those who would like an update from the Fry's
http://www.elkfallspottery.com/ (http://www.elkfallspottery.com/)
Steve has a blog on there and just a couple of weeks ago gave an update on progress at the Frakes place.
Thanks! So they have not moved yet. I found them both to be delightful. We talked for a long time because we were the only visitors. They were interested in Mom, who used the clay from North East Kansas that Daddy dug for her pottery works in the 30's. World War II ended that. I brought home a cute little bowl, one of Steve's long woven baskets, one of Jane's little sunflower pins and a bird house. I'm glad to know they are doing well.
From the Sedan Graphic of February 10, 1886, quoting the Howard Democrat:
"There seems to be but little doubt that the Santa Fe Co., will extend the railroad from this place [Howard] to some point on the Kansas Southern, [Independence through Oak Valley, Longton, Elk Falls, Moline, and Grenola], but just where they will strike that road, is to some extent a matter of doubt. Both Moline and Grenola are making every possible effort to secure the extension. The railroad company will probably survey both routes and then build on the line that, all things considered, will pay them the best. Our people here, are somewhat divided as to which point they would rather the road struck, but the large majority prefer Grenola as it is farther from Howard and would probably hurt our trade less. Others think that if the road goes to Moline it will be extended south and in that event would not build up Moline so much as to render it a dangerous rival. However it is not in any sense of the word a Howard fight as we are utterly unable to dictate to the road where it shall go or when it shall go, and it will be time enough to consider the evils of this line or that line, when the company makes definite preparations."
Santa Fe went into Moline before the year was out and never made it to Sedan. Sedan already had railroad service from the Denver, Memphis, and Atlantic, which was later taken over by the Missouri Pacific RR.
I am replying to Diane's post about Steve and Jan Fry -- Yes, Diane, they have moved to their home on the north side of Highway 160 at Elk falls. Their previous residence was across the street from Fred's parents home. They ( Fred's parents) lived there from 1947 until 1969. When Steve and Jane moved there Dad and Mom McD. thoroughly enjoyed them as neighbors.
Anyone:
Is it safe to say that the only business on the Elk Falls Main Street is the post office?
I think so Waldo. There is a pretty painted outhouse sitting on main street and I have no idea what goes on in there---and don't wanna know. I have tried to post that old picture of Elk Falls main street but failed. either I have to break down and beg Teresa to do it or send it to Sarge---but he aint a whole lot smarter than me. Maybe I could just send it to your e-mail address ??
That would be fine with me.