They can kiss my lilly white ass!
Warph, i can see you're pretty good at copy/pasting lies, i guess thats a step in some sort of direction.
So far going through it it is pretty accurate. I just singled out one of them the tax on you if you don't buy health coverage.
SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.
`(a) Tax Imposed- In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of--
`(1) the taxpayer's modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over
`(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.
`(b) Limitations-
`(1) TAX LIMITED TO AVERAGE PREMIUM-
`(A) IN GENERAL- The tax imposed under subsection (a) with respect to any taxpayer for any taxable year shall not exceed the applicable national average premium for such taxable year.
`(B) APPLICABLE NATIONAL AVERAGE PREMIUM-
`(i) IN GENERAL- For purposes of subparagraph (A), the `applicable national average premium' means, with respect to any taxable year, the average premium (as determined by the Secretary, in coordination with the Health Choices Commissioner) for self-only coverage under a basic plan which is offered in a Health Insurance Exchange for the calendar year in which such taxable year begins.
`(ii) FAILURE TO PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL- In the case of any taxpayer who fails to meet the requirements of subsection (e) with respect to more than one individual during the taxable year, clause (i) shall be applied by substituting `family coverage' for `self-only coverage'.
`(2) PRORATION FOR PART YEAR FAILURES- The tax imposed under subsection (a) with respect to any taxpayer for any taxable year shall not exceed the amount which bears the same ratio to the amount of tax so imposed (determined without regard to this paragraph and after application of paragraph (1)) as--
`(A) the aggregate periods during such taxable year for which such individual failed to meet the requirements of subsection (d), bears to
`(B) the entire taxable year.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200:http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200:
Quote from: Anmar on August 05, 2009, 06:50:29 PM
Warph, i can see you're pretty good at copy/pasting lies, i guess thats a step in some sort of direction.
Not lies anmar, read the bill. I even did the hard part and provided the link.
Obama Sucks!!
Obama Sucks!!
Obama Sucks!!
Obama Sucks!!
I figured it up.........number 1 tho, I spend eightyfive dollars a year to go get my prescriptions renewed and eightysix dollars a month to buy them. I havent seen the US governments name on any of the receipts. Anyway...just what the government SAYS it spends MORE than any other country on every person adds up to 300000 dollars over ten years for my base family of five. That's not even adding in for the two daughter-in-laws and three grandkids. So do we get like a refund???????????
I feel another revolution coming... if it passes, i feel it coming soon. :o
Quote from: mtcookson on August 06, 2009, 10:02:01 AM
I feel another revolution coming... if it passes, i feel it coming soon. :o
TAMPA — Bitter divisions over reforming America's health care system exploded Thursday night in Tampa amid cat calls, jeering and shoving at a town hall meeting.
"Tyranny! Tyranny! Tyranny!" dozens of people shouted as U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, struggled to talk about health insurance reforms under consideration in Washington, D.C.
"There is more consensus than there is disagreement when you get right down to it,'' Castor offered, immediately drowned out by groans and boos.
She pressed on, mostly unheard among screams from the audience estimated by Tampa police to be about 1,500.
"Tell the truth! Tell the truth!" "Read the bill!" "Forty-million illegals! Forty million illegals!"
The spectacle at the Children's Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters. Similar scenes are likely to be repeated across the country as lawmakers head to their home districts for the summer recess.
Thursday's forum/near riot was sponsored by state Rep. Betty Reed, D-Tampa, and the Service Employees International Union, who apparently had hoped to hold something of a pep rally for President Barack Obama's health care reform proposal.
Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican Party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points.
An overflow crowd of critics was left waiting outside the building — and in some cases pounding on the meeting room doors — while health care reform activists complained that Democrats and union members were guided into the room for prime seats. Tampa police officers maintained control the entire night.
"They can't even run a meeting, and they want to run health care?'' scoffed Kevin Grant, a Tampa printing business owner, standing near someone wielding a "Shame on you America. You sold your soul to the Devil" sign.
The nationally televised images of protesters lashing out at politicians sympathetic to Obama's health care proposal certainly drive home the health care plans' keen opposition. Some Democrats, though, argue that engaged, disruptive protesters only serve to depict the GOP as unwilling to work on solutions.
"These groups are not concerned about Americans' access to quality heath care, but are extreme ideologues, only interested in 'breaking' the president and thwarting the change Americans voted for last November," said state Democratic chairwoman Karen Thurman.
Polls show mounting public concern about the nation's debt and deficit, and a CNN poll released this week found 50 percent of those surveyed support the president's plan and 45 percent oppose.
Castor said a strong debate is healthy but suggested that many of the protesters who have shown up at town hall meetings in recent weeks would have staunchly opposed the creation of Medicare and Social Security a few decades ago.
"The insurance industry and ... Republican activists are manufacturing a lot of these phony protests,'' said Castor, who has been closely involved in the health care debate and said she won't support any bill lacking a government-run insurance option.
She left before the forum ended, which drew more boos. State Rep. Reed said she encouraged Castor to leave because nobody could hear her anyway.
Protesters said there was nothing phony about their strong showing, just a bubbling of grass roots anger.
"It's the backlash to the arrogance of our government that you're seeing here,'' said Brad Grabill of Temple Terrace.http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/article1025529.ece
LOTS of comments at link
n Denver too.
Rally protests government plans for health care
By STEVEN K. PAULSON Associated Press Writer
Posted: 07/28/2009 05:01:11 AM MDT
Updated: 07/28/2009 02:24:13 PM MDT
Protesters gather outside the Capitol for a health care reform rally. (THE DENVER POST | RJ SANGOSTI)
Related
Health Care Reform
Aug 6:
Pelosi visits Denver clinic, says Dems united on health reformPelosi to talk health care at Denver clinicColorado lawmakers brace for health care fight that moves to their home districtsDENVER—Several hundred people, many of them carrying signs warning "Hands off my health care," rallied at the Colorado state Capitol on Tuesday to protest what they call government-run health care.
Jeff Crank, state director for Americans for Prosperity, a public policy group backing free enterprise, told supporters the current health care system has problems, including lack of coverage, but he said a program run by the government would only make those problems worse.
"We're building an army," Crank told the cheering crowd on the Capitol steps.
Crank said people who have insurance should be allowed to keep it when they move to other jobs, health policies should cover pre-existing conditions and the number of lawsuits should be reduced.
Jon Caldara, president of the Independence Institute, a conservative think tank, said two of his children needed emergency surgery and he questioned whether proposed changes to health care now before Congress would have provided the same care.
"This is not about good fiscal policy or bad fiscal policy, this is about my children," he said.
Dale Auer, who retired from the military and lives in Colorado Springs, said he got the treatment he needed when he was diagnosed with cancer two years ago. Auer said he was given an experimental treatment under his insurance policy, a treatment that he believes would have been barred under programs now being considered by Congress.
"The procedure I had was leading edge and risky," he said.
Michael Huttner, spokesman for ProgressNow Colorado supporting Democratic Party agendas, said Tuesday's protest was part of a national effort to discredit the Obama administration.
"These out-of-state interests are misrepresenting both themselves and the citizens of Colorado who desperately need health care reform," Huttner said.
No Government Health Care - Yard Signs
http://christiancitizens.org/no_government_health_care.html
WHY NOT ?????????
Obama Sucks!!
SuperWarph the other day you said I made you do something. I said I the day I made you do something was the day I quit reading your posts. Would you consider changing your icon from your little communist dog Che? I find it off putting for you. I have a suggestion:
(http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-icecold.gif)
JimmyO ;D
Obama Sucks!!
I understand your dilema Had you changed it I guess I may have created my own dilema as to whether I could read your posts had you done so.
:D
Quote from: Warph on August 08, 2009, 06:55:25 PM
LOL.... I love the Icon but I 'm afraid it will upset the Dawgs should I change it, Jimmy O. :'( They are already pissed at me for putting them on a diet of veggies and an half-hour a day each on the treadmill. ;D
Warph I am sending you a t-shirt for Che to appease him.
(http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-bitebk.gif)
JimmyO
Sorry for interrupting the serious conversation folks.
Diane, it is a christian website, aimed at christian conservatives. Why should they be ashamed of that? In the article it didn't mention religious affilation of any kind.
Diane-
You often seem to stand for the liberal agenda.
Somehow I'm not surprised at you questioning
it like you did.
Whats liberal about wanting to include jews?
Certianly, nothing and I know of no exclusion hereabouts in this thread.
However, I recall that you favor excluding Jews from their lands that God awarded them.
Quote from: redcliffsw on August 09, 2009, 12:21:58 PM
Certianly, nothing and I know of no exclusion hereabouts in this thread.
However, I recall that you favor excluding Jews from their lands that God awarded them.
If you wanna talk religion, you should study a bit more. The jews were expelled from the holy land by God and true orthodox jews consider zionism a heresy.
IT's a long video, but well worth the it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QfgvDXsDds&feature=related
Just because "Christian" as on the website doies not reflect
an exclusion. There are Jews who are Christian too.
If you want to be liberal, that's your choice. I think that
liberalism is a bad choice but it's your decision whether to
change or not.
Sorry to hear about your ultra-conservative friiend. It can
happen to anbody. Ultra-conservative sounds redundant.
I prefer "conservative" without all the descriptive add-ons.
Liberals stay away from the founding father "business".
The founding fathers stood against the Monarchy so I can
see why liberals make different choices.
How much Federal money has your fire fighting dept been
receiving over the years?
Don't sweat it Diane......it really don't matter you know :)
Reds just conservative with a capitol C and it's up to them if they want to change or not ;)
QuoteThere are Jews who are Christian too.
Been my experience the two are mutually exclusive theologies.
gotta love the whole judgemental crowd.
Obama Sucks!!
I'll look it up tomorrow, but aren't we like, in the bottom 5 in terms of health care among the top 30 indsutrialized nations?
Obama Sucks!!
QuoteAt approximately the same time you informed the nation for the 39th time that the fundamentals of our economy were sound
You may or may not recall, but this is Sean Hannity and John McCain's line.
And as promised, the Health Care info.....
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/human_development.htm
Of the top 30 industrialized nations, we are 26th in life expectancy, and last in infant mortality.
Here's another site with a lot of interesting stats.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm
More health care stuff
http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf
And a study comparing the American, Canadian, and British Health Care systems
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000404.htm
QuoteThe study also dispels many of the negative myths perpetuated by American conservatives regarding a lumbering, unresponsive Canadian health care bureaucracy. Harvard's Karen Lasser noted that "most of what we hear about the Canadian health care system is negative; in particular, the long waiting times for medical procedures." The data simply does not bear that out; while Canadians much more frequently reported long waiting times as a barrier to care (3.5% to 0.7% for Americans), treatment delays were not a major factor for either nation.
QuoteThe explanations vary and include both expected and surprising answers. The authors of both the Canadian and British comparisons stress the role that universal health coverage and preventive care play in producing healthier citizens. But given the superior health of lower class Britons relative to upper class Americans, universal coverage alone can't provide the explanation. Robert Blendon of the Harvard School of Public Health (and who did not participate in the U.K. study) suggests Americans' financial insecurity may play a key role. "The opportunity to go both up and down the socioeconomic scale in America may create stress," Blendon said. "Americans don't have a reliable government safety net like the English enjoy."
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/sep2006/tc20060921_053503.htm
QuoteThe U.S. health-care system is doing poorly by virtually every measure. That's the conclusion of a national report card on the U.S. health-care system, released Sept. 20. Although there are pockets of excellence, the report, commissioned by the non-profit and non-partisan Commonwealth Fund, gave the U.S. system low grades on outcomes, quality of care, access to care, and efficiency, compared to other industrialized nations or generally accepted standards of care. Bottom line: U.S. health care barely passes with an overall grade of 66 out of 100.
Quote from: Anmar on August 11, 2009, 09:53:14 AM
QuoteAt approximately the same time you informed the nation for the 39th time that the fundamentals of our economy were sound
You may or may not recall, but this is Sean Hannity and John McCain's line.
And as promised, the Health Care info.....
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/human_development.htm
Of the top 30 industrialized nations, we are 26th in life expectancy, and last in infant mortality.
According to your chart you posted the link to, we are 8th not 26th. And you can't compare life expectancy with nations that are smaller than our largest cities. Come on now really Canada is one of the largest countries listed on that chart other than the US and they only have 30 -40 million people.
10% of our population.
last of all, these countries are small as some of our states, and socialized healthcare for them is shakey at best and you want to socialize our healthcare on a country that is as large as it is? Won't work. Try looking at russia. You have two forms of health care there, one is go to govt health care and die, and the second is pay for good healthcare if YOu can afford it and it will cost you dearly to get good health care.
THE ONE WORD TO DESCRIBE OBAMACARE
Dr. Dave Janda
To The Point
Thursday, 23 July 2009
As a physician who has authored books on preventative health care, I was
given the opportunity to be the keynote speaker at a Congressional Dinner
at The Capitol Building in Washington last Friday (7/17).
The presentation was entitled Health Care Reform, The Power & Profit of
Prevention, and I was gratified that it was well received.
In preparation for the presentation, I read the latest version of "reform"
as authored by The Obama Administration and supported by Speaker Pelosi and
Senator Reid. Here is the link to the 1,018 page document:
http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-0714
09.pdf
Let me summarize just a few salient points of the above plan. First,
however, it should be clear that the same warning notice must be placed on
The ObamaCare Plan as on a pack of cigarettes: Consuming this product will
be hazardous to your health.
The underlying method of cutting costs throughout the plan is based on
rationing and denying care. There is no focus on preventing health care
need whatever. The plan's method is the most inhumane and unethical
approach to cutting costs I can imagine as a physician.
The rationing of care is implemented through The National Health Care
Board, according to the plan. This illustrious Board "will approve or
reject treatment for patients based on the cost per treatment divided by
the number of years the patient will benefit from the treatment."
Translation.....if you are over 65 or have been recently diagnosed as
having an advanced form of cardiac disease or aggressive cancer.....dream
on if you think you will get treated.....pick out your coffin.
Oh, you say this could never happen? Sorry.... this is the same model they
use in Britain.
The plan mandates that there will be little or no advanced treatments to be
available in the future. It creates The Federal Coordinating Council For
Comparative Effectiveness Research, the purpose of which is "to slow the
development of new medications and technologies in order to reduce costs."
Yes, this is to be the law.
The plan also outlines that doctors and hospitals will be overseen and
reviewed by The National Coordinator For Health Information and Technology.
This " coordinator" will "monitor treatments being delivered to make sure
doctors and hospitals are strictly following government guidelines that are
deemed appropriate." It goes on to say....."Doctors and hospitals not
adhering to guidelines will face penalties."
According to those in Congress, penalties could include large six figure
financial fines and possible imprisonment.
So according to The ObamaCare Plan...if your doctor saves your life you
might have to go to the prison to see your doctor for follow -up
appointments. I believe this is the same model Stalin used in the former
Soviet Union.
Section 102 has the Orwellian title, "Protecting the Choice to Keep Current
Coverage." What this section really mandates is that it is illegal to keep
your private insurance if your status changes - e.g., if you lose or change
your job, retire from your job and become a senior, graduate from college
and get your first job. Yes, illegal.
When Mr. Obama hosted a conference call with bloggers urging them to
pressure Congress to pass his health plan as soon as possible, a blogger
from Maine referenced an Investors Business Daily article that claimed
Section 102 of the House health legislation would outlaw private insurance.
He asked: "Is this true? Will people be able to keep their insurance and
will insurers be able to write new policies even though H.R. 3200 is
passed?" Mr. Obama replied: "You know, I have to say that I am not
familiar with the provision you are talking about."
Then there is Section 1233 of The ObamaCare Plan, devoted to "Advanced
Care Planning." After each American turns 65 years of age they have to go
to a mandated counseling program that is designed to end life sooner.
This session is to occur every 5 years unless the person has developed a
chronic illness then it must be done every year. The topics in this session
will include, "how to decline hydration, nutrition and how to initiate
hospice care." It is no wonder The Obama Administration does not like my
emphasis on Prevention. For Mr. Obama, prevention is the "enemy" as people
would live longer.
I rest my case. The ObamaCare Plan is hazardous to the health of every
American.
After I finished my Capitol Hill presentation, I was asked by a Congressman
in the question-answer session: "I'll be doing a number of network
interviews on the Obama Health Care Plan. If I am asked what is the one
word to describe the plan what should I answer."
The answer is simple, honest, direct, analytical, sad but truthful. I told
him that one word is FASCIST.
Then I added, "I hope you'll have the courage to use that word,
Congressman. No other word is more appropriate."
Dr. Dave Janda, MD, is an orthopedic surgeon, and a world-recognized expert
on the prevention of sports injuries, particularly in children. His
website is
noinjury.com
http://noinjury.com/>
Quote from: srkruzich on August 11, 2009, 11:02:16 AM
According to your chart you posted the link to, we are 8th not 26th. And you can't compare life expectancy with nations that are smaller than our largest cities. Come on now really Canada is one of the largest countries listed on that chart other than the US and they only have 30 -40 million people.
10% of our population.
last of all, these countries are small as some of our states, and socialized healthcare for them is shakey at best and you want to socialize our healthcare on a country that is as large as it is? Won't work. Try looking at russia. You have two forms of health care there, one is go to govt health care and die, and the second is pay for good healthcare if YOu can afford it and it will cost you dearly to get good health care.
The countries are not sorted according to rank. You have to look at the actual numbers.
Yes it's true that some of the countries are very small. Many of the coutnries are also much less well-off, yet they still manage to have better health care than we do. I have a friend studying medicine in Cuba, and would you believe that the Cuban poor get better medical treatment than middle class Americans? And they've been under economic sanctions for 30 years.
The point is, we have so much more resources, we have so much more money, and we spend so much more on healthcare, yet we are still getting sub-standard health care. I saw an article a few days ago stating that morthan 30% of our spending on healthcare is wasted. How much of our health care bills are going to government lobbyists? I think it's silly when they have people to defend their corporate pillaging for free.
There are things i don't like about the Obama plan, but something has to be done. Our health care system sucks. The USA is the only industrialized nation that doesn't offer free health care to citizens.
Seriously though, cut the crap about the government trying to kill old people. I can't believe people are buying into the propaganda being put out there by the health care companies. I lost a good friend last year to cancer because he got dropped from his insurance when they found out. He's not the only one with that kind of story. These corporations are scamming people out of their money and they are paying people (mostlye "conservatives) to defend them in the public realm. Your conservative leaders have sold out yet you all blindly follow them.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 11, 2009, 01:31:42 PM
Money to blow at a casino, but no money for health care. ( Apparently that lady is a regular at the slots.) I know we can't legislate against stupidity, but that did bother me too.
Uuhhhhhh yeah! THAT kind of stuff bothers me.... a LOT!
I really hate to see people buy cigarettes and then pay for their groceries with a vision card. That bothers me also.
Diane cleaned her kitchen?
Larryj
I am curious. The congressmen and women are now or soon will be back in their districts holding town hall meetings. It seems that there is a huge bunch of Americans that are opposed to the health care bill. What I am curious about is: Will our/your Representative/Senator listen and change their way of thinking and their vote because they are REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE, or will they try to tell their constituents that they, the Congress, know what is good for America and this bill is good for America. The folks at those meetings should stress that these individuals are the REPRESENTATIVES of the this particular district, county, etc.
Larryj
Hee Hee, Diane. You know, I and my wife often thought that when our kids were grown and gone that there would be less housework, less dishes to wash, less laundry to do, and more free time because we wouldn't have to do as much housework.
Don't read into this that our kids didn't help out, they did.
HOWEVER, NOTHING HAS CHANGED_________THE WORKLOAD SEEMS TO BE THE SAME. I TRIED TO BLAME IT ON MY IN-LAWS WHO SHOW UP EVERY WEEKEND, BUT WAS REPRIMANDED FOR EVEN THINKING THAT, SO---------------------------------
IT MUST BE US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Larryj
I agree with the statement of the people at the meetings calling out their reps on this. However, I do not beleive in paid or volunteer professional activists going around the country calling out Congressmen and Senators that are not THEIR representative. A lot of media baiting, attention grabbing nonsense is going on at these town hall meetings, and its not all from legitimate residents of the district or state, people who are actual constituents of the representative holding the meeting.
I am not commenting on the actual content of the demonstrations, just the manner in which they are occuring.
Obama Sucks!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZBsIxiTRMA
for those of you who missed it. Pretty funny.
Lol! Glen Beck is an entertainer hired to entertain by preaching to whatever choir his employer supports. I'm not astonished by this, and he would certainly be preaching to another choir should he be paid to do so. He and Limbaugh and that ilk all belong to the same sorry group that profit on turmoil; there's no honor other than pure greed.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on August 17, 2009, 11:47:22 AM
Lol! Glen Beck is an entertainer hired to entertain by preaching to whatever choir his employer supports. I'm not astonished by this, and he would certainly be preaching to another choir should he be paid to do so. He and Limbaugh and that ilk all belong to the same sorry group that profit on turmoil; there's no honor other than pure greed.
LOL glen beck is there because people want hm there. IF they didn't he would be dropped like a hot potato. Look at Air america. They can't even pay the bills off of their "entertainment" "commetators" shows.
And as far as greed? who cares what glenn beck makes. Its his money and he's intellegent enough to negotiate the money he makes. Rush makes his 30 mill a year not from salary but he works on a percentage of what the advertisers pay. IF he wasn't wanted, they would just pull their dollars and he would be unemployed.
"Straight Talk"
If Beck and Limbaugh aren't good enough........
....then all you all can listen to Ron Wilson's "Straight Talk" every weekday
morning at 10:00 a.m. CST or in the evening at 7:00 pm CST right here:
http://www.dixiebroadcasting.com/ Just click-on the "Listen Now"
Ron served on the Board of Education of South Carolina. He's not paid for having this program.
Give him a listen and you see that he's a real conservative and you might learn soemthing too.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/17/left-objects-possible-removal-government-run-health-care-option/
No Government-Run Health Insurance, No Bill, Say Liberal Supporters of Reform
The Obama administration appears to be stepping back from its insistence on a government-run health insurance plan, earning new wrath from the left as the president tries to appease vocal opponents of a "public option."
I also saw where the house.gov servers are crashing due to emails coming into the representatives servers objecting to obamacare.
Diane,
Patriot Act took away some liberties, although i don't think that is what Red was referring to, as it was done by republicans.
Diane, I'm not tracking on your question about lost liberties. There are liberties
that we have lost. Are you saying we have not lost any liberties? If so, you
must be a happy socilalist.
Anmar, I've never been a republican. By the way, I can't stand the republican party either.
Quote from: Anmar on August 17, 2009, 07:23:07 PM
Diane,
Patriot Act took away some liberties, although i don't think that is what Red was referring to, as it was done by republicans.
Excuse me, Patriot act was done by democrats and republicans. The only one who voted against it was the 1 lone independant Ron Paul.
They all pushed that through on a fast track.
The patriot act 2 was a amendment to the first one which was sponsored by republicans.
AND the entire act was sunshined also so that it had to be renewed if necessary.
Quote from: srkruzich on August 17, 2009, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: Anmar on August 17, 2009, 07:23:07 PM
Diane,
Patriot Act took away some liberties, although i don't think that is what Red was referring to, as it was done by republicans.
Excuse me, Patriot act was done by democrats and republicans. The only one who voted against it was the 1 lone independant Ron Paul.
They all pushed that through on a fast track.
The patriot act 2 was a amendment to the first one which was sponsored by republicans.
AND the entire act was sunshined also so that it had to be renewed if necessary.
I stand corrected.
Diane, please finish your sentence and I'll consider your question.
(Wilma must not be reviewing grammar today).
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 18, 2009, 01:02:44 PM
Well, where did it go? ;D ;D ;D Anyway, I was interested in what liberties you felt have been lost recently... now, not after the Civil War. Maybe I'm more interested in rural VS urban ,that seems to be where some of the differences seem to be.
Heres one, get on a plane these days. after you ahve been thoroughly groped, pawed and totally violated by a Government employee who barely has a highschool education, might if your lucky speaks english UNLESS your Muslim, you might get to board your plane if you don't arrive past the 30 min preboard time from your physical assault at the main entrance. They say its for security but gah theres no security in that its all for show. They test them all the time and get all kinds of weapons through the "security" in the airports.
Try buying more than 50 lbs of fertilizer. You will get a quick visit from the batf.
Loss of liberty...how about unwarranted searches, seizures, and indeterminate detention by police officers, background checks to purchase firearms, the ban of firearms in certain cities, needing a "permit" to carry said firearms, mandatory vaccainations for school children, the need for a permit to stage a protest, the gov't dictating the sexual behavior between consenting adults,...just to name a few.
To bring this back to Health Care; Billy, what do you have against childhood immunizations?
I think that it should be a parents choice wether or not they want their child vaccinated. Making it mandatory for a child to be vaccinated to attend public school takes that choice out of the parents hands.
Would you personally have yourself or your children immunized voluntarily?
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on August 18, 2009, 09:10:15 PM
I think that it should be a parents choice wether or not they want their child vaccinated. Making it mandatory for a child to be vaccinated to attend public school takes that choice out of the parents hands.
You don't have to have your kids vaccinated to go to school. My godson's family is Christian Scientist and he did not have to get the vaccinations. That was in California so I don't know if that is different in other states.
David
We were told last year that our childrens shot records would have to be updated in order for them to go to school.
Flintauqua, for some things yes, some no. Why?
Just that this and other advanced countries spent so much time, effort and money to all but erradicate diseases that have killed or crippled millions upon millions of people over thousands of years, that I would hate it if anyone I knew got one of those diseases simply because of a risk (perceived or documented) that is less than being struck by lightning twice or more in a lifetime.
I would get my kids immunized nowadays simply because immigrants are bringin diseases that WERE almost unheard of here and we are starting to hear about them again. No this is not a shot aGAINST immigrants, it's a fact of life we have to be aware of.
Well is good to know that if i am sick and dieing and need medicine my life is in the hands of a bunch of retards that don't even know me in washington. Whats next are they gonna start caneing and cutting off our heads if we break laws? since when do we elect dictators instead of presidents anyway. America better wake up before theres nothing left
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 19, 2009, 09:12:00 AM
School immunizations have been around for a very long time and are considered a public health issue.That can't be pinned on any President. I would definitely have had. If you aren't sure, get your Doc involved.
Hey Pam, ya got bedbugs out there yet? The east coast corridor is getting bedbugs back big time. New York City is full of 'em. People are so desperate to kill them they are spraying their beds ( Brooklyn) with gasoline. Talk about a fire hazard. FDNY is going crazy!!!
Billy, to touch on the liberties thing again, all those issues you mentioned are state issues, not federal restrictions. Mention what can't be sent through the mail and I'll agree, but it's hardly new. I'm looking for things that are federal and new right now, like passports to visit next door countries, but that was set in motion before Obama too.
Ok, back to health care. I just can't believe this death panel business. I just don't see it happening. Big Poppa, who is "they"? Surely you don't mean a Federal caneing office? What judge is going to start that? Beheading? I don't think the local cop is going to issue a beheading citation for a traffic violation. You are getting into states again, if they don't support it, it ain't gonna happen. Even the federal marshals don't do that kind of thing, not their job. Even your insurance, with the exception of Medicare and Medicaid is a state thing.That's where it should be. I hate it that some have scared you so. I'm still waiting for some federal examples of true loss of liberty right now. I think you have more states' sovereignty than you give yourselves credit for.
Diane, Billy listed some good examples. Warentless wiretapping, search and siezure, indefinite detention, and the likes. It has nothing to do with healthcare but the Patriot act was an affront to the constitution.
In answer to the bedbug problem, Elk County has 'em or had 'em. ;D
Bedbugs were so bad, the June 28, 1873, Longton Weekly Ledger, asked if there was a difference between a Howard (Elk) County bedbug and a South American vampire.
QuoteHey Pam, ya got bedbugs out there yet?
Uh..........no LOL not in MY house anyway ;D haven't heard about them in anybody elses....
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on August 18, 2009, 09:24:17 PM
We were told last year that our childrens shot records would have to be updated in order for them to go to school.
Actually I think that IS a state thing because when we moved here from Kansas Ashley had to get some shots that Missouri required that Kansas didn't. More boosters and a hepatitus shot. Course Kansas may require those NOW we left there almost ten years ago.
Well lets see what rights have the Feds taken away........
the freedom to OWN another human being
the freedom to treat your WIFE like property
the freedom to discriminate against people because of their race,creed,religion,sex, or disability
the freedom to keep people from voting because of their color or sex
the freedom to drink.....but then they gave THAT one back
then................
the Patriot act.....yall do know there is a provision allowing whoever is president and "Homeland Security" to take control in the event of a disaster manmade or natural whether it is an election year or not until it is deemed the "crisis" is over? That's the ONLY one that bothers me.
Like has been said most of the pain in the butt regulations and rules come from the state level.
Let me get this straight.
Obama's health care plan will be written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it, signed by a president who smokes, funded by a treasury chief who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that is nearly broke.
What possibly could go wrong?
Jo, you said it all right there. We are going to a Townhall meeting, with our US Senator on this tomorrow night and I am going to get up and read that to the crowd.
i am not scared or worried about anything because the only people left when it gets that bad is the people who are ignorant and open minded to the fact that it couldn't get that bad. Those who us that aren't sheep are gonna do what we gotta do to survive . its the ones who stay with the flock who will get screwed. so those of you who like to feel safe with the flock go ahead. we have let them take our rights sooner or later it will be time to take back. so you be a good sheep and let the farmer do ya. but i won't
Clean up your insinuations, and learn how to spell and use punctuation! We have been having civilized discussions and debates on here lately, post something intelligent or don't post at all!
oh now we got the spelling police on me or as i like to call them DOUCHE BAGS
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the computer just ate my POST!
so are you insinuating i'm not intelligent?
Damn it was a good one too :P pffffffffffffftttttttt
EASY bubba....
ANyway I was TRYING to post about Fed freedom taking.........the gist of it was they TRY....with the north american union project....if they DO pass a law making it mandatory to have insurance.....crap I lost the rest of it...basically if the Feds want something they don't come at you straight on they come at you sideways and convince you it's best or scare you into accepting it....just ask any native.
SOme on here have the impression I think this health thing is a good deal....I DON'T.
Do I think they will do SOME version? Yes whether we like it or not because they got the bit in their teeth and the ones in power ar throwin their weight around. JUST like the republicans would be doin if they were.
ok pam if ya want me to be good i will lol
Lol we need a little fire in here every once in awhile !
We don't need name calling
Poppa is rough and really DOESN'T care what anybody thinks....or whether or not they LIKE what HE thinks.....He can be rude and crude but make no mistake he is a very intelligent guy and a good guy.
Not ghosts . . . Gremlins!!!!!!!!!! 8)
Lol, I had just what I wanted to say hit post and it disappeared! Stupid gremlins.........Lol maybe they were tryin to save me from myself :P
I'm thinking more along the lines of a mogwai that has been fed after midnight. ;D
Say, I drove a Gremlin all through school and beyond; called it the Little Blue Scoot, but it disintegrated to Pooter-Scooter! LOL! ;D It was a great little car, got me where I needed to go.
Hey I had a genuine Levi's edition gremlin when my boys were little! Denim seats and interior little red tags and all, Levis emblem on the side...it was cool LOL
The gremlins are alive and well here in SoCal, too!!!!!! I recently copied a rather lengthy article from my local paper thinking it would be interesting reading for the members of the forum. I had it all typed and almost ready to post when I was called away to do something else. When I returned, it was gone. I searched all over the place to see if it was posted and didn't find it. By this time, I had lost interest in retyping it again. But you would have enjoyed it and now I wish I could remember what it was about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was thinking (smell the burning wood) that maybe there should be a local health plan. How about this scenario: Say, a town of 1000 people pay a premium of $50 a person towards local health care. So now you have $50000 in the town's bank account. The town has A doctor and being a small town, a clinic, and so on. Hire the Doctor at a certain wage, say $15000 a month leaving $35000 a month to run a clinic. Use volunteers to help with the clinic who have a little medical training for CPR, immunizations, and minor injuries.
OOPS! Sounds a little socialistic. Unreal, because a family of four is paying $200 a month in premiums while they are young and maybe in better health and a single senior citizen is paying $50 a month and requires more health care because of age. So why would the family of four want to pay for the other guy? Yep, sounds socialistic pretty much like the health insurance reform bill before us now.
Larryj
Larry,
For starters, the plan proposed gives individuals the right to choose their own health care providers. That is not socialism. Furthermore, the scenario you described above works exactly the same way as your local police, fire, and school services. Are those socialist programs too? Do you want to get rid of those?
Sorry, Anmar, but a health insurance premium is basically a "ponzi scheme" so to speak. You are placing your money with a company to insure that should you ever need it, you will be taken care of medically when needed. In the meantime, the insurance company is investing your premium in ways for it to earn money. In the meantime, others who buy their insurance from the company are being treated for their problems maybe with your money. You are not getting anything for your money, i.e. interest on the investment by the insurance company, other than a contract that says if your health problem is qualified you will be covered.
Police, Fire, and schools are paid for with taxes. Your taxes go to these entities to guarantee that should you need their services, they will be there for you and your kids will go to school and learn what they need to know in order to live their own lives. There is no "sorry, but your house isn't covered by our fire district, you will have to put it out yourself" clause. Taxes are taxes, premiums are premiums.
From Wikipedia:
Insurance, in law and economics, is a form of risk management primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent loss. Insurance is defined as the equitable transfer of the risk of a loss, from one entity to another, in exchange for a premium, and can be thought of as a guaranteed and known small loss to prevent a large, possibly devastating loss. An insurer is a company selling the insurance; an insured or policyholder is the person or entity buying the insurance. The insurance rate is a factor used to determine the amount to be charged for a certain amount of insurance coverage, called the premium. Risk management, the practice of appraising and controlling risk, has evolved as a discrete field of study and practice.
A tax "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" and is "any contribution imposed by government [...] whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name."[
Big difference------------------------
Larryj
Larry, the logical solution based on your argument would be to either abolish insurance companies and leave people to fend for themselves, or tax people to provide them health care as a service. Neither solution is within the framework of capitalism, so what would you suggest?
I wasn't saying, that there is a "logical conclusion" at least I don't think I said that. Abolishing insurance companys is not an answer, as far as I know. Maybe a way to regulate them to a certain degree, but they will always be around, probably. Taxes are taxes imposed on us, voted for by us, and used to support our government and all its services. No other suggestions from me, I am just not that smart.
Larryj
Anmar-
After all the years since the Civil War, we still see the many effects of Reconstruction.
Socialism is stronger than ever. Even though you claim to be a descendent of
Jefferson Davis, you are a good example of the reconstruction by the northerners.
The local police or fire are not examples of socialism although neither should never accept
or use Federal funds or grants. The public school system is an example of socialism and it
was mandated by the north upon each Southern states during reconstruction as a
requirement to re-admittance to the Union. It was the sociialists' desire to teach the
young folks thru the public school system that their Confederate fathers were wrong to have
seceded from the Union and thereby indoctrinating them with Federalism and stronger central gov't.
Ma'am, you reflect the success of the Yankee and socialist indoctrination. It's no wonder that
you desire the USA to become more like other countries.
Red,
What exactly do you have against grants? I know your position on the size and scope of the Federal government, and your positions on states rights. And, my position is not as far from yours as you might think.
However, until something changes, how is rural America ever supposed to get any of our Federal income and excise tax dollars back. Would you rather have a $200 + water bill every month, or have our small towns and rural water districts use USDA and CDBG loans and grants to pay for the capital expenditures (treatment plants, towers and pipe) that otherwise would not exist. Or would you have us all go back to drinking from hand dug wells and rain cisterns.
Do you think small towns and rural America would have electricity, land-line and/or cell phones, cable and/or satellite internet if Federal tax dollars weren't being used behind the scenes to make it possible to build and maintain the infrastructure that makes it all possible for the small number of people served.
Or watershed dams, paved roads, half-way decent bridges, natural resource conservation programs. These are OUR tax dollars coming home instead of getting gobbled up by urbanites that never paid the income taxes in the first place.
Please, tell me your thoughts on how, until we can somehow get our taxes reduced, we would ever get our tax dollars back, to be put to use for US, here in rural America.
Charles
Ohhhh Noes! We just can't use federal monies for (gasp)
Progress!
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 20, 2009, 01:40:29 PM
Why are you so against Federal funds or grants?
The price is too high to pay. Anytime Govt says their here to help there's a ton of strings attached and usually some freedom is lost.
Quote from: srkruzich on August 21, 2009, 02:14:28 PM
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 20, 2009, 01:40:29 PM
Why are you so against Federal funds or grants?
The price is too high to pay. Anytime Govt says their here to help there's a ton of strings attached and usually some freedom is lost.
I'm tired of generalizations. I want specifics.
Can you please explain how using, for example, USDA Rural Development money to lay new water lines or build a new treatment plant encroaches on your rights? I would like to know exactly what you are thinking would be in the "strings", because I know what the strings are, I have read all the documents involved, and have been an "authorized signator" for federal grant applications.
Charles
Quote from: flintauqua on August 21, 2009, 02:43:30 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on August 21, 2009, 02:14:28 PM
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 20, 2009, 01:40:29 PM
Why are you so against Federal funds or grants?
The price is too high to pay. Anytime Govt says their here to help there's a ton of strings attached and usually some freedom is lost.
I'm tired of generalizations. I want specifics.
Can you please explain how using, for example, USDA Rural Development money to lay new water lines or build a new treatment plant encroaches on your rights? I would like to know exactly what you are thinking would be in the "strings", because I know what the strings are, I have read all the documents involved, and have been an "authorized signator" for federal grant applications.
Charles
Fed moneys give the feds a loophole to come in and dictate how local and state governments operate. For example, back in late 70's the feds came in and dictated that all states who recieved any federal money for highways must lower speed limit to 55 mph. That is a state right not a fed right. The way the feds got around the 10th amendment was to attach a waiver of states right to get the funds. Same thing goes for any federal monies. by accepting money from the feds the state or township agrees to allow the feds into the business of the locals.
I can get a grant to start a business. But in doing so i have to allow the feds to dictate what i do in my business. Not going to happen. Not worth the price they exact from me. Its simpler and I can run my business the way i wish to run it if i pay for it out of pocket and not accept grants or loans from teh feds.
All grants and all loans made by the feds come with all kinds of strings attached.
Would requiring a business permit, or rabies tags for your dog count as strings to you? Or are those things okay because they are local government regulations.
Quote from: flintauqua on August 21, 2009, 03:22:14 PM
Would requiring a business permit, or rabies tags for your dog count as strings to you? Or are those things okay because they are local government regulations.
your talking about local regulations which are not federal.
Secondly business permit and rabies tags aren't grants or money being doled out by the feds.
Third, i am not for any government interference in our lives. Rabies tags do not stop rabies. And a man does not need permission to make money. So why is there a need for a permit to make money.
Like i said before, i qualify for government grants, and government loans to start a business. Its Not worth it because of who you have to sell your soul to to get it.
Quote from: srkruzich on August 21, 2009, 11:13:06 PM
Third, i am not for any government interference in our lives.
anarchy - 1. the complete absence of government 2. political disorder and violence; lawlessness 3. disorder in any sphere of activity
From Websters New World Dictionary of the American Language, 2nd College Edition, 1986
anarchy - 3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
From Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
I seriously doubt that srkurzich is advocating a complete and total breakdown of our society. I believe he, like many others in this county, is tired of the federal gov't overstepping its bounds and trying to tell us how to run our daily lives.
You asked about strings attached to grants..how about the gov't giving states that are close to bankruptcy money and then telliing them that they can't use that money to pay off their debts. That it has to be used to expand social economic programs that the state can't afford in the first place. Or, for example, when businesses accept money from the gov't they are required to hire a certain percentage of minorities instead of people the business wants to actually hire.
Quote from: flintauqua on August 22, 2009, 01:13:19 AM
Quote from: srkruzich on August 21, 2009, 11:13:06 PM
Third, i am not for any government interference in our lives.
anarchy - 1. the complete absence of government 2. political disorder and violence; lawlessness 3. disorder in any sphere of activity
From Websters New World Dictionary of the American Language, 2nd College Edition, 1986
you know we could go into this forever and a day but the bottom line is that the individual not the government is responsible for how they take care of themselves. The less government in our lives the higher quality of life we lead. One such thing that people are mislead in to believing is police protection. Police are not obligated to protect us. Their job is to protect public property and that has been verified by the supreme court. I am happy with that, since i have the means and the weapons to deter and protect myself from predators.
we have a constitution. It is the law of the land. Unfortunately Government has ignored it due to the masses wanting to get something for nothing and permitting the government to usurp their authority.
isn't that anarchy? lawlessness? violating the law of the land? I'd say were already in anarchy.
Quote from: pamsback on August 19, 2009, 07:56:16 PM
Poppa is rough and really DOESN'T care what anybody thinks....or whether or not they LIKE what HE thinks.....He can be rude and crude but make no mistake he is a very intelligent guy and a good guy.
Been thinkin about this for a couple days.......I didn't say before because I wasn't sure if he wanted me to "out " him so to speak or if he wanted to stay incognito but I'm gonna tell yall who Poppa is...He's my oldest son. He stands for what he believes in and he doesn't take well to unimportant criticism of things like spellin and punctuation or what some consider crudeness. To him the message is more important than the delivery mode which is AS it should be.
He's a lot like me...he knows it but it just ain't really all that important.
He's BETTER than me because he will "call a spade a spade" no matter who or what it is and won't really care if they like it or not or if ANYbody does for that matter.
Talone is my OTHER son.....the same can be said of him :) I raised them to be individuals with the guts to stand for what THEY believe in whether it is anybody ELSES belief or not inCLUDING mine.
OH yeah I have a daughter who is just as much an individual as the rest of us :) I'm a lucky woman :)
:) "REAL Mamas always stand beside and behind their youngins'... "
That's an A+ in my book.
I do believe some in here better thicken up their thin skin... I think we got a ringer on the horizon.. ;)
Obama Sucks!!
Having lived 45 of my 50 years in Europe where socialized medicine is all that there is, America better wake up and fight against what the Democrats are wanting to do. Once your freedom to choose is taken from you, you will never get it back.
This is a good video that should make you think.
http://www.pjtv.com/v/2299
Obama Sucks!!
Congressman Rogers' makes his opening statement on Health Care reform legislation that is under debate in Congress.
Congressman Rogers spoke to Fox News about provisions in the Democrat Health Care plan that will ration your healthcare and create a commission to set prices for healthcare in America
Obama Sucks!!
Maybe a little off topic, but I am wondering what will happen to doc.'s and patients that refuse to play by the rules? For example, doc's that continue to allow patients to pay for their own healthcare, or begin to operate on a barter system?
We were on the road the other day and I caught part of a news story that they are talking about a "sales tax" on health insurance to pay for the program.
Here's a couple links about what they are talking about as in : a new VAT (value added tax)!
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090925/D9AUIKMO0.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGxdXdfWrZ7o