Joe Legal vs. Joe Illegal
Here is an example of why hiring illegal aliens is not economically productive for the State of California
You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2 parents, 2 children and live in California.
"Joe Legal" works in construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes $25.00 per hour with payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works in construction, has "NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".
Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per year.
Now take 30% away for state federal tax
Joe Legal now has $31,231.00
Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00 per year
Jose Illegal pays no taxes...
Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00
Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage $1000.00 per month $12,000.00 per year
Joe Legal now has $19,231.00
Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year
Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00
Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare Joe Legal pays for food $1,000.00 per month $12,000.00 per year
Joe Legal now has $ 7,231.00
Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and Welfare Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00
Joe Legal pays rent of $1,000.00 per month $12,000.00 per year Joe Legal is now in the hole minus (-) $4,769.00
Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy
Jose Illegal pays rent $500.00 per month $6,000.00 per year Jose Illegal still has $25,200.00
Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.
Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch.
Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
Its PAST time to take a stand for America and Americans!
You have just given a fantastic, detailed description of why we need the Foreign Worker status to be official...At least, that way, we would be able to collect taxes before they shipped all of their earnings back to Mexico.
I agree CW, we should have a guest worker program. Now, how do we handle the illicit drug import business?
legalize it and tax the hell out of it.
Be careful, Pam... I tried that line of thought on a post one time and people started looking at me funny and stopped talking to me! ;)
Hey, I still talk to you, Tobina! (even if I do still look funny at you! LOL But hey, I probably look funny TO you as well!)
Quote from: Tobina+1 on June 18, 2009, 09:16:15 AM
Be careful, Pam... I tried that line of thought on a post one time and people started looking at me funny and stopped talking to me! ;)
LOL....well it's true anyway ;D if some guy is sellin drugs and the government is takin most of his profit for taxes he's NOT gonna be that interested in doin it anymore. Sides that people been lookin at me funny from the get-go so.......LOL
We cannot have a guest worker program or begin to stem the flow of drugs without first securing our borders. But just as the last two presidents have proven, that is not going to happen.
Billy, I'm thinking you're right about that.
By the way, the gringos have been living off gov't programs and gov't money for years.
If we never had created these social programs in the first place, nobody would be
participating in them.
Stem the flow of drugs...................I just have a question...can ANYbody think of ANYthing that has been stemmed by makin it illegal? I mean seriously.........talk about an exercise in futility......Prohibition worked so well too........They made prostitution illegal how many hundreds of years ago...that's worked out well.....gambling is illegal except for casinos......nobody ever bets on anything do they??
C lose the borders......the mexican border is almost 2000 miles long....the canadian border is almost 9000 miles....how do you propose we "close" them? If you close the canadian the only way to alaska is one road? water? How you gonna get that oil from Alaska? It comes thru Canada, don't think they might shut their part off for spite?
Make it illegal...close it...cut it off....why doesn't somebody ever come up with a POSItive way to change things? Makin it illegal has worked SO well so far :P whatthehellever............................
I Connie, The (Gesalt Prayer) to whomever: I had decided not to participate on the forum .All I want to say is many of you know our Family (The Avalos) and know that we work our _ _ _ off and more.I cannot believe how some of you can talk the way you do, but as the above Prayer says: I am not here to judge you and I guess we call that Our Freedom of Speech. I have been reading up on some of these post and have taken some to heart,but I am not going to dwell on this for I have better things to do in life like,my JOB,HUSBAND,HEALTH,CHILDREN & The Best GRANDCHILDREN and I can say some close FRIENDS.I am glad that I don't know who most of you are on here, meaning that I could not live with myself if I had to face you on the street or in the grocery store after writing some of the post being written.I over heard a comment one day that went: Don't be a Friend to my face and when I turn my back your my Enemy.Love ,Peace and Harmony to all and GOD BLESS AMERICA. Connie
Quote from: connie on June 18, 2009, 10:01:41 PM
I Connie, The (Gesalt Prayer) to whomever: I had decided not to participate on the forum .All I want to say is many of you know our Family (The Avalos) and know that we work our _ _ _ off and more.I cannot believe how some of you can talk the way you do, but as the above Prayer says: I am not here to judge you and I guess we call that Our Freedom of Speech. I have been reading up on some of these post and have taken some to heart,but I am not going to dwell on this for I have better things to do in life like,my JOB,HUSBAND,HEALTH,CHILDREN & The Best GRANDCHILDREN and I can say some close FRIENDS.I am glad that I don't know who most of you are on here, meaning that I could not live with myself if I had to face you on the street or in the grocery store after writing some of the post being written.I over heard a comment one day that went: Don't be a Friend to my face and when I turn my back your my Enemy.Love ,Peace and Harmony to all and GOD BLESS AMERICA. Connie
You know Connie, I and my husband used to eat at your place in Severy a lot when we still lived there and Joe worked with your husband at Knights. I am sorry for some of the stuff that gets said on here. I really am. You all are good people. I don't know if I have said anything that I should take back.....I remember sayin one time that the mexican guys I have worked with on the jobsite generally worked my ass off to keep up with em...if I have I apologize for it.
Things that have been "stemmed" by making them illegal...
1) slavery
2) prayer in schools
3) handgun ownership in places like D.C. New York and Chicago
4) prostitution, although it still exists, other than the Mustang and Bunny Ranch, I don't see brothels popping up all over the place
These are just a few, You asked for examples, there you go.
As for securing our borders, it is easy, We bulid 4 fences, two on the north and two on the south. Why two?? It would give a double layer with enough room between them for patrols.
As for the oil, even if we secure the borders, I seriously doubt the gov'ts of either mexico or canada would want to lose the revenue that they make exporting oil to us. Afterall, we get most of our oil from them.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 19, 2009, 12:36:03 AM
Things that have been "stemmed" by making them illegal...
1) slavery
2) prayer in schools
3) handgun ownership in places like D.C. New York and Chicago
4) prostitution, although it still exists, other than the Mustang and Bunny Ranch, I don't see brothels popping up all over the place
!. Slavery still exists...right here in the good ol US there are rings who kidnap girls and sell them into slavery.
2.If you seriously think nobody prays in school anymore or anywhere ELSE for that matter you are mistaken.
3.Nobody in those cities owns a handgun? Get real.
4.They don't have flashin neon signs on the front that says WHorehouse HERE but there ARE whorehouses all over the United States. They are called EScort services.
Remember those fences you all are so hot for will work both ways. What keeps "them" out keeps YOU in.
Quote from: connie on June 18, 2009, 10:01:41 PM
I Connie, The (Gesalt Prayer) to whomever: I had decided not to participate on the forum .All I want to say is many of you know our Family (The Avalos) and know that we work our _ _ _ off and more.I cannot believe how some of you can talk the way you do, but as the above Prayer says: I am not here to judge you and I guess we call that Our Freedom of Speech. I have been reading up on some of these post and have taken some to heart,but I am not going to dwell on this for I have better things to do in life like,my JOB,HUSBAND,HEALTH,CHILDREN & The Best GRANDCHILDREN and I can say some close FRIENDS.I am glad that I don't know who most of you are on here, meaning that I could not live with myself if I had to face you on the street or in the grocery store after writing some of the post being written.I over heard a comment one day that went: Don't be a Friend to my face and when I turn my back your my Enemy.Love ,Peace and Harmony to all and GOD BLESS AMERICA. Connie
Connie, I am with Pam...If I have posted anything that you found offensive, I heartily apologize, from the bottom of my heart. I hope that you rethink your decision to abstain from participating here...Because we need your voice...If this Forum is allowed to be dominated by only those with the loudest voices, then we've actually lost that "freedom of speech" amendment that some are so fond of screaming about. Don't let those with too much time on their hands keep you from putting your perspective here.
Connie.. I really do not think anyone on here has ever done or said anything to anyone or made reference on a personal level. And not to you or your family ( as far as I can tell) So I guess I am a bit confused as to where you are coming from.
Excuse my ignorance.. ( I'm blond you know and a bit old and slow.. ) LOL
I'm sorry you think otherwise.
To participate or to not participate on boards on this forum is a personal choice. Whether you do or you don't is everyones choice. I hope you reconsider and choose to add your thoughts and opinions on this site.
Maybe I don't take things personally when posts are made. Unless they say to me.. Hey Teresa.. ~~~~~~ I look at it as a post and an opinion. Then I address that person or posts accordingly.
Anytime you have a forum of many people and opinions.. there will be things that are said which could be taken as "personal" . Sometimes they are meant as a direct hit ( of which I try to moderate) and other times it is just "freedom of expression" over boiling. I've been guilty of both.. as many of us have. Guess that is one of the sides of being human. Doesn't make it right.................but it does make us human.
I urge everyone ( myself included , as I get carried away with my passion on subjects) to remember that we are all from a small area.. We have the advantage and disadvantage of everyone knowing and seeing each other on the street..
Try to be nice. :)
It's because her and her family CAME from Mexico, they have family still there. I can see where she's comin from.
Pam, there will always be those among us who break laws. However, to say that those laws are not effective because people break them is a bit naive. Murder, child abuse, robbery, drunk driving, are against the law and yet still happen. Should we not continue to fight against these things or not make them illegal?
Also, as far as fences go, yes they work both ways. I feel that we should be able to monitor those coming and going in and out of our country. Some may see that as an infringment upon our freedom, I see it as a safeguard to our freedom.
As to prostitution, "Escort" services are just that. Anything else is up to the Escort and the person who hired her/him. Sex is not a guarnteed outcome of the engagment.
Yes, people in D.C., New York, Chicago do own handguns, However that is not to say that the purchase of said handguns is as easy as other parts of the country.
Comapring the slavery that exists today, sex trade rings, to the wholesale slavery that we had in this country prior to the Civil War is quite a stretch.
Connie, I make no apologies because I think America needs to stop ILLEGAL immigration. I don't have a problem with people wanting to migrate to this country so long as they follow the proper means of doing so. However, when those people identify themselves as Mexican-American or Afro-American or Whatever-American I take issue with that. I think that if people are going to enjoy the freedoms and benefits of a country that they have moved to and have chosen to become citizens of a country, then they should identify with that country. My anscestors may have been Scottish, Irish, German but I am an American.
QuoteHowever, to say that those laws are not effective because people break them is a bit naive.
It's not "naive" it's the TRUTH.
QuoteSome may see that as an infringment upon our freedom, I see it as a safeguard to our freedom.
I see it as stupid. "safeguard to our freedom"........."go ahead put me in a cage to keep me "free" ...I mean really dude...
QuoteAnything else is up to the Escort and the person who hired her/him
I'm not sure..I mean I never graduated from college or anything but I THINK that's prostitution........
QuoteComapring the slavery that exists today, sex trade rings, to the wholesale slavery that we had in this country prior to the Civil War is quite a stretch.
So slavery is a matter of degrees!? Sellin somebody as a "sex slave" ain't the same as sellin them for a farmhand?! Slavery is slavery........
QuoteHowever, when those people identify themselves as Mexican-American or Afro-American or Whatever-American I take issue with that.
I don't. I've pussyfooted around this one a LOT on here just because I didn't want to "offend" anybody. I am PROUD of my heritage, native, irish, scots. We ARE our ancestors and we should know our heritage American or otherwise. It doesn't matter HOW long a person has been in the US. right? You all still consider them illegal? By your OWN rules then unless you have native american blood EVERY person in this country is an illegal alien.
Quote from: pamsback on June 19, 2009, 11:34:06 AM
It's because her and her family CAME from Mexico, they have family still there. I can see where she's comin from.
I don't understand either. No one has said a word about her or any of her family. I think the topic is about ILLEGALs. if someone is here illegal then their a criminal and need to be sent back. Doesn't make a hill of beans whether their hard workers or not. Comitting a crime is still comitting a crime.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 19, 2009, 11:50:08 AM
Comapring the slavery that exists today, sex trade rings, to the wholesale slavery that we had in this country prior to the Civil War is quite a stretch.
Slavery wasn't abolished, it only changed forms. We work 6 months out of every year for no pay because government takes what we make. When you force people to work for free under the threat of death (aka IRS), then thats slavery!
Quote from: srkruzich on June 19, 2009, 02:14:53 PM
Quote from: pamsback on June 19, 2009, 11:34:06 AM
It's because her and her family CAME from Mexico, they have family still there. I can see where she's comin from.
I don't understand either. No one has said a word about her or any of her family. I think the topic is about ILLEGALs. if someone is here illegal then their a criminal and need to be sent back. Doesn't make a hill of beans whether their hard workers or not. Comitting a crime is still comitting a crime.
Think about your family and ancestors...if you don't get it nobody can explain it to you.
Quote from: pamsback on June 19, 2009, 02:28:01 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 19, 2009, 02:14:53 PM
Quote from: pamsback on June 19, 2009, 11:34:06 AM
It's because her and her family CAME from Mexico, they have family still there. I can see where she's comin from.
I don't understand either. No one has said a word about her or any of her family. I think the topic is about ILLEGALs. if someone is here illegal then their a criminal and need to be sent back. Doesn't make a hill of beans whether their hard workers or not. Comitting a crime is still comitting a crime.
My family and ancestors came here legally. They entered ellis island and went through the proper process.
They had the required money saved up necessary to immigrate to this country and went out and forged their way across this country. Not only did they do it right, they also did it on their own with absolutely no help. Back then there wasn't any govt programs, free schoolin, free medical care.
And last of all, i don't care if their mexican, iranian, iraqi or Croatian (my family). IF they come across the border illegally they need to be sent back to where they come from. There is a reason their called illegals. They comitted a crime to get into this country and comitted an illegal act. This country was founded as a Republic based on the rule of law. It is a really pitiful start to a supposedly new life when you break the law of a nation based on the rule of law. As a American why should I welcome anyone starting out that way with open arms? IF good people and hard workers break laws to get better opportunities, then their not good people or hard workers. Their character quite frankly sucks!
Think about your family and ancestors...if you don't get it nobody can explain it to you.
You know what pam, you're right. Lets do away with all of our laws, because since not everyone follows them, they are useless. Then, lets keep our borders open to anyone who wants to come in or go out, of course no one would ever think of using our open border policy to attack us, or take advantage of oppurtunities that we have here.
You don't want to pussyfoot around anymore, good, neither do I. The best thing to happen to "native americans" was the so called illegal white man coming here, kicking their butts, and taking over. Up until that happened what had the natives done other than learn how to flintknapp and sew hides. At that point the whites had built empires and CIVIL socities which gave birth to ideas and knowledge that we now have, and thank God for it. Frankly, the idea of living out of a teepee in august isn't that appealing. So don't hand me that "unless you have native blood you're illegal" crap. Even the natives aren't native to this part of the world, they migrated from siberia across the land bridge to alaska and worked their way down.
It's the "new world order" crowad that wants to eliminate borders.
New world order = one world government
First of all, Connie, I hope you will reconsider your thought about leaving the forum. I don't think there are too many personal slams on here, maybe a few but that is just silly nitpicking that die out pretty fast or have been moderated to the great forum in the sky. I can see where if you live in Elk County and know those who are on the forum it could be difficult to see them on the street on occasions if they have stated their feelings on a subject. I have also considered leaving the forum because of all the infighting here in the politics section. I find it hard to leave because I want to know what happened to who and I live 1200 miles away and will not ever run into anyone here. I find it interesting that the people of ElK County have so many diverse opinions on so many subjects. Does that sound like I think these people are naive or uninformed? Nope. Because of the many differences between living in a small town and living in the second largest city/county in the country, there is not that much interaction between me and the people I talk to. Why? Because we spend most of our time talking about old times or where is he/she now. Just yesterday I had a visit from a friend who used to live in this neighborhood. He and his family moved to the desert 90 miles away and over the years contact slowly diminished. I had not seen or talked to him in many years. We spent almost three hours catching up and not once did we mention the economy, the president, illegals, the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, or anything else other than our families and their families. The point is that there are those who come here illegally and take jobs that pay minimum wage with no benefits. They rely on government services for health care, etc. While I do have a problem with the fact that they are using these services that they are not paying into, I can understand it.
I once saw a political cartoon showing a Mexican climbing a fence and being pulled back by a soldier. He was trying to get back into Mexico because of our lousy economy. So hang in there, Connie, we don't all agree all the time but it is nice to get the opinions of others. I don't think anyone is attacking you personally.
Larryj
I welcome anyone that wants to come to this country to better themselves, feed their famlies, seek out the opportunities that this nation has to offer. BUT do it the right way, obey the laws.
I have a good friend back in georgia that came here from mexico city, got his paperwork in order, immigrated here and started working as a dishwasher at a restaurant in atlanta. He saved every dime he could and when he found restaurant equipment at a low price he bought it with what he saved.
he was 32 when he came here and brought his two kids with him.
When he was 35 he had saved enough money to open his own restaurant in dahlonega georgia. He built his restaurant one pan at a time. He married a gal from mexico city three years later and brought her over here LEGALLY. In 1998 he built his mother a house in mexico city with some of his profits. He also sponsors many many many waitresses from other countries, some of which are from columbia, venezuela, brazil, equador, mexico, nicarauga. All of the girls are legal immigrants. Then they had their daughter selena, and then he opened two more restaurants in 2000. In 2001 he became an American citizen along with his family. I was in Wichita about a month ago and saw one of his restaurants there. El maugeys restaurant. He has come from a dirt poor Mexican immigrant to owning almost 50 chain restaurants across the us. HE did it all on his own, no help from anyone, no government welfare, nothing but hard ass work and sacrifice.
Now thats a Immigrant I appreciate! Those that jump the fence and take shortcuts by breaking laws aren't people i want in this country. Roberto also feels that way too. It infuriates him that he did it the right way and obeyed the laws. He says that he was in the same boat as those that break the laws and why should they get any preferential treatment.
QuoteYou don't want to pussyfoot around anymore, good, neither do I. The best thing to happen to "native americans" was the so called illegal white man coming here, kicking their butts, and taking over. Up until that happened what had the natives done other than learn how to flintknapp and sew hides. At that point the whites had built empires and CIVIL socities which gave birth to ideas and knowledge that we now have, and thank God for it. Frankly, the idea of living out of a teepee in august isn't that appealing. So don't hand me that "unless you have native blood you're illegal" crap. Even the natives aren't native to this part of the world, they migrated from siberia across the land bridge to alaska and worked their way down.
I was just going to ignore this BUT......................Do you even know any history besides what the popular whitewashed version of 1850 was? CIVIL societies? Are you kidding me???? What's civil about the "white" european society before tey decided to come over here and "civilize" the IGNORANT barbaric SAVAGES by killing,raping, and pillaging the VERY people who taught THEM how to survive here? They didn't even consider my ancestors HUMAN. They brought their filthy habits and filthy diseases and damn near wiped out an ENTIRE race of people JUST because they thought it was their GODGIVEN right to DO so. WHich BY THE WAY is the VERY same way they operated in Europe. Empires my ass, they killed anybody who defied them, tortured anybody who didn't adopt their religion, then brought their landlord tenant mentality here. By the way what HAPPENED to all of those "great empires"? The people they were oppressing got a belly full and run their asses OFF, that's what happened to all those "great empires".These CIVIL people are the same ones who BURNED people at the stake for being witches...tortured people until they would admit to anything to get it to stop and THEN killed them. The Constitution that you are so FOND of was BASED on the Articles of Confederation of the Iriquois Confederacy. The Cherokee Choctaw Creeks Chickasaws were BETTER farmers than the WHITE people they lived NEXT to. They adopted the laws and ways of the whites to "get along" because that was what they were told were work. THEN ANdrew Jackson and Congress screwed them over and took everytrhing they had worked for gave it to white men and FORCED them to walk to Oklahoma.
As for the rest of your post making DRUGS illegal HAS NOT WORKED! It WILL NOT WORK as long as there are MILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars to be made money talks and bullshit walks bud that's just the way IT IS.
I for ONE do NOT want a fence around me to "KEEP ME FREE" have fun swimmin the atlantic if the Obama dictatorship you see comin really happens and YOU can't get across the fence.
Don't give me that well the natives aren't natives cause they came from Siberia like 1000 years earlier. They were here FIRST and deserved better than they got at the hands of my EUROPEAN ancestors. Period.
One more thing the statement about everybody but Natives being illegal was an attempt to get you to see how some of the statements you make about immigrants who have been here illegal or not for YEARS have kids born in the US and sayin well tough youknowwhat send em ALL back they don't belong here are really kind of, to be polite, out of line.
Don't EVER tell me the Natives had it comin.
Quote from: pamsback on June 20, 2009, 10:18:51 AM
One more thing the statement about everybody but Natives being illegal was an attempt to get you to see how some of the statements you make about immigrants who have been here illegal or not for YEARS have kids born in the US and sayin well tough youknowwhat send em ALL back they don't belong here are really kind of, to be polite, out of line.
Don't EVER tell me the Natives had it comin.
Natives were just as treacherous as the white man. In the 1600's the powhattens conspired to poison the settlers at jamestown after the settlers had became friends with them. The alogonquin chief went to the settlers and warned them about the plans and a tragedy was avoided. Sound familiar? This was long before the white man giving infected blankets to the indian which is exactly the same thing that was done to the settlers in the 1600s.
The white man held no monopoly on treachery, the native indians were just as adept at such actions.
Quote from: pamsback on June 20, 2009, 10:09:27 AM
before tey decided to come over here and "civilize" the IGNORANT barbaric SAVAGES by killing,raping, and pillaging the VERY people who taught THEM how to survive here? They didn't even consider my ancestors HUMAN.
This is a absolute crock.
QuoteTHEN ANdrew Jackson and Congress screwed them over and took everytrhing they had worked for gave it to white men and FORCED them to walk to Oklahoma.
Again this is false. The cherokees were offered money for their lands and many of them willingly sold it out. They sold off their land to the gold miners in the southeast area. But there were enough of the cherokee that did NOT sell off their lands and they still have their native lands available to them in NC.
they didn't leave and march to oklahoma. The tribes in florida never signed a treaty either and are still on their tribal lands down there.
As for the rest of your post making DRUGS illegal HAS NOT WORKED! It WILL NOT WORK as long as there are MILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars to be made money talks and bullshit walks bud that's just the way IT IS.
I for ONE do NOT want a fence around me to "KEEP ME FREE" have fun swimmin the atlantic if the Obama dictatorship you see comin really happens and YOU can't get across the fence.
Don't give me that well the natives aren't natives cause they came from Siberia like 1000 years earlier. They were here FIRST and deserved better than they got at the hands of my EUROPEAN ancestors. Period.
[/quote]
QuoteThe white man held no monopoly on treachery, the native indians were just as adept at such actions.
Some were...MOST weren't.
Quote
they didn't leave and march to oklahoma. .
I suggest you check your history.
I'm outa here till I can keep my cool.
Quote from: pamsback on June 20, 2009, 02:42:45 PM
QuoteThe white man held no monopoly on treachery, the native indians were just as adept at such actions.
Some were...MOST weren't.
Same with the white folks you know. MOST weren't treacherous.
QuoteI suggest you check your history.
I don't have to i lived in cherokee country for 40+ years i know the history very well. I have learned it from cherokee there themselves.
QuoteI don't have to i lived in cherokee country for 40+ years i know the history very well. I have learned it from cherokee there themselves.
I learned it from my granma.
www.ngeorgia.com/history/cherokeeforts.html
www.ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html
You're from Georgia right? Maybe you oughta chck these out.
Quote from: pamsback on June 20, 2009, 10:18:51 AM
One more thing the statement about everybody but Natives being illegal was an attempt to get you to see how some of the statements you make about immigrants who have been here illegal or not for YEARS have kids born in the US and sayin well tough youknowwhat send em ALL back they don't belong here are really kind of, to be polite, out of line.
Don't EVER tell me the Natives had it comin.
Yeah, and there were nazis that escaped justice for several years too. Should they not have been tried simply because they avoided capture for YEARS?
Correct me if I am historicaly wrong, but the indians also raped, kidnapped, enslaved. If they were so high and mighty and full of virture and morallity then why did they take up the barbaric practice of scalping as taught by the french? Why did groups such as the apache roast people over fires, or bury them up to their heads in sands and leave them to die? Check YOUR history.
And one more thing, I am not going to swim the alantic to escape the tryanny that is coming. America is my home, and I will fight and die if need be to protect it. I will not be forced to walk anywhere.
And one more thing, the White immigrants that came here weren't illegal. The United States didn't exist at that time. In fact, if it weren't for those "illegal" white immigrants, the United States would not exist at all.
Quotewhy did they take up the barbaric practice of scalping as taught by the french?
for money
QuoteWhy did groups such as the apache roast people over fires, or bury them up to their heads in sands and leave them to die
As revenge for the murder of their women and children.
I am on opposite sides from you once again. I will no longer waste my time discussing, debating or flat out arguing with you. One thing I am is honest. Various native tribes did horrendous things also...BUT WHITE America has always had selective memory when it comes to what THEY did. It's 200and friggin9 and people are STILL blind.
QuoteAmerica is my home, and I will fight and die if need be to protect it. I will not be forced to walk anywhere.
Whatever......guess if you do it that makes it right...if the natives did it it was masacreeing and murder. They take your means to protect yourself and build a fence around the way out you'll be walkin and askin how fast do you want me to go. So spare me. As I said on my thread I got things to do and have no more time for this. See yall this fall.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 21, 2009, 10:54:13 AM
And one more thing, the White immigrants that came here weren't illegal. The United States didn't exist at that time. In fact, if it weren't for those "illegal" white immigrants, the United States would not exist at all.
They wanted someplace else to live...they came when nobody wanted them..that makes them illegal.....they stayed and took over....forced THEIR values and way of life on who was already here by force.
Pamsback,
The longer I sit here and read this the madder Maxine and I get. All I have to say to Pamsback, I would like to know where you would be today if it were not for the "white american's. I guess what we have to say to you, is if you do not like it go live in some other country and see what it is like to live where you can not talk the way you are about white american's. Max and I will stand behind Teresa,BillyakaVarmit and kshillbilly. Yes there is a lot of history and a lot of wrong doing on both sides. But for the most part Maxine and I have lived long enough to say we are TRUE americans and dam proud to say so. So if someone does not like it get of of the country we are most proud of.
Madder then two old wet hens. Maxine and Maude.
Quote from: Maude on June 21, 2009, 01:03:29 PM
Pamsback,
The longer I sit here and read this the madder Maxine and I get. All I have to say to Pamsback, I would like to know where you would be today if it were not for the "white american's. I guess what we have to say to you, is if you do not like it go live in some other country . . . . .
I'll jump in here and defend my daughter. Where would she be if it were not for the "white American's"? She'd be happy living among her own people, the Cherokee, the NATIVE AMERICANS.
Ok, well i been reading through this, and my reaction is mixed. cause both sides of this rigamorow is making points that i agree with, but also some points that i don't agree with. I'm all for getting rid of the illegal alien problem, and i'm sorry but if you are here illegally, i don't care if your brown, red, black, yellow, white, green, or bright pink, your ass gotta go. We got enough problems in this country without people who snuck in and live off the system with no intention of paying it back. i have been on public assistance and i ain't ashamed of it, cause i worked my ass off when i could. no when illegals get public assistance and i was told that i didn't qualify cause i made more than 200.00 a week severlye pissed me off. anyone who has a newborn and a family to support knows that 200.00 a week wasn't enough. now as far as all this business with the debate about "white people" and native americans. yes the Indians did get a raw deal, they had their land taken from them because of the tactics and weapons used by the english, and then got penned up on the cruddiest piece of the land that the english could find, and said "Now don't you leave you hear." We see in the news about the different races getting reparations and about oppression. The oppression about native americans is still bad, but it gets swept under the rug. Where would we be if the english hadn't come to this country. Well chances are alot of us would't be here, cause they ain't no thing anymore as a full blooded american. We all got all different kinds in the wooodpile stacked up. So i am getting really tired of the cry about race superiority, cause even the most devout white supremacist probably got a black person, or a mexican, or an indian somewhere swinging from the tree. Now if i have offended anyone that was not my intention. But i want you all to keep one very important thing in mind. This is America. The first ten rules of the U.S. Constitution is called the Bill of Rights, and while i can't recite all of the m right now, i do know that ain't nowhere that it says you have the right to never be offended. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but it is a privelege, and you should not feel that you should take someones right to an opinion away because they don't agree with you. Now if you don't want anyone to have that basic right, then maybe you should be the one who gets the freak out of Dodge.
Quote from: flo on June 21, 2009, 01:28:50 PM
Quote from: Maude on June 21, 2009, 01:03:29 PM
Pamsback,
The longer I sit here and read this the madder Maxine and I get. All I have to say to Pamsback, I would like to know where you would be today if it were not for the "white american's. I guess what we have to say to you, is if you do not like it go live in some other country . . . . .
I'll jump in here and defend my daughter. Where would she be if it were not for the "white American's"? She'd be happy living among her own people, the Cherokee, the NATIVE AMERICANS.
So are you 100% NATIVE AMERICAN with NO OTHER ethnicity in you? Or are you like ALMOST all of us on this forum, Heinz 57 mutts? I KNOW i'm a MUTT cuz I was accused of BARKIN up the wrong tree on another post!
Talone29 is our newest member and after reading his/her post, I agree specifically with one statement. "....even the most devout white supremicist probably got a black person, or a Mexican or an Indian somewhere hanging from a tree". Excuse me, that should be "swinging", not hanging, though hanging is just as appropriate.
Correct me if I am wrong but Flo you are telling us that you and your husband are full Cherokee? That would the only way your daughter could be a full blood NATIVE AMERICAN.
Maude and Maxine- Heinz 57's
Quote from: kshillbillys on June 21, 2009, 02:56:53 PM
Quote from: flo on June 21, 2009, 01:28:50 PM
Quote from: Maude on June 21, 2009, 01:03:29 PM
Pamsback,
The longer I sit here and read this the madder Maxine and I get. All I have to say to Pamsback, I would like to know where you would be today if it were not for the "white american's. I guess what we have to say to you, is if you do not like it go live in some other country . . . . .
I'll jump in here and defend my daughter. Where would she be if it were not for the "white American's"? She'd be happy living among her own people, the Cherokee, the NATIVE AMERICANS.
So are you 100% NATIVE AMERICAN with NO OTHER ethnicity in you? Or are you like ALMOST all of us on this forum, Heinz 57 mutts? I KNOW i'm a MUTT cuz I was accused of BARKIN up the wrong tree on another post!
Maude and Maxine.....I don't think your opinion really matters that much to me. Your anger means nothing to me.
Mom....Thanks, luv ya
kshillbilly......bite me. I don't know you and I'm pretty sure I don't want to.
I happen to know Talone and he is a pretty good guy. In fact my mother knows him too so be careful what you ask for hillbilly.
Now if you all can manage to keep your mouths off my family....as I said before...I"M TAKIN A BREAK....so go play amongst yourselves.
I don't remember asking for anything from anyone. Maybe the fact that on the welcome thread I said he/she should post more. The "be careful what you ask for" statement just because someone "knows" you and your mother sounds a little threatening to me.
I live at 205 W. 4th in Longton, Kansas, USA.
I have done nothing to you. Don't know you either and don't care. No one's opinion means anything to you, but in your welcome thread you said you like to read other peoples perspectives.
My husbands grandparents were from the Tahlequah area, Cherokee card carriers. My husband will tell anyone, he's a WHITE RED BLOODED AMERICAN with several backgrounds, just like me. My husband says there ain't enough Indian blood in him to drive a pissants ass around a peanut shell. Just goes to show that people don't have to have hardly any Indian blood in them to have an Indian card.
Quote from: Talone29 on June 21, 2009, 02:08:49 PM
Well chances are alot of us would't be here, cause they ain't no thing anymore as a full blooded american.
I don't know about you but I am 100% full blooded American! I was born here. I am just as American as the native Americans.
Quote from: kshillbillys on June 21, 2009, 02:56:53 PM
What makes a person Native? Being born here! So yes i am 100% native American
QuoteSo are you 100% NATIVE AMERICAN with NO OTHER ethnicity in you? Or are you like ALMOST all of us on this forum, Heinz 57 mutts? I KNOW i'm a MUTT cuz I was accused of BARKIN up the wrong tree on another post!
I don't know about you but I am 100% full blooded American! I was born here. I am just as American as the native Americans.
[/quote]
Right, but i think you missed my point. I'm not saying that anyone born here or a legalized citizen of these United States isn't a 100% American. I'm saying that it is pointless to base it on the purity of your blood be you native american, english, spanish, dutch, german, russian, or any other ethnicity because it's not what you bleed that makes you american, it's your belief in a free system of government, the belief that every man, woman, and child that is a citizen of this great nation has the right to the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, the american dream, all that jazz. I stand here not to argue with any of you, but to say that we as a nation are confused. One of our biggest problems is that we spend way to much time bickering with one another because we don't all share the same opinion and we think that we need to change other peoples way of thinking so that it matches our own. I know there are millions of people who don't agree with me on Religion, Politics, Family values and a whole host of other topics. But God grant me the strength to change the things i can, the patience to accept the things i can't, and the wisdom to know the difference between the two. Maybe if we all lived our own lives according to what we believe, and not try to make everyone else live according to what you personally believe, we could get this banana boat turned around and going in the right direction. but to think you can base anyones rights on the purity of their blood is incredulous. Everyone who is a citizen of the USA is a 100% full blooded american regardless of ethnic background.
I'm going to give this one last shot........I do/did not threaten anything. I don't threaten period. My point was Talone will give you his opinion whether you like it or not so if you don't want it don't ask. At least 50% of them are going to piss you off just as bad as I do.
I DO like to hear other peoples opinions on ISSUES...their opinion of me personally means squat to me. Whether they are MAD at me or not means squat to me. You have YOUR subject YOU are passionate about...I have mine.
I don't care about anybodies blood quantum of anything. Being a card carrier doesn't make you Indian.
I live at 240 Tiger Paw Lane in Stella Mo. I'm FROM Severy. Come visit anytime.
My statement about what makes somebody entitled to be American was an attempt to make some people see the ridiculousness of some things. It got blown WAY out of proportion and turned into a personal attack.
I have a VERY low tolerance of closed-mindedness...I admit it freely. I got pissed. I'm not apologizing for it. It happened.
I am seriously not going to be here after this so do your damndest to twist this around into something other than it is.
There are a LOT of people on here I truly respect and LIKE. I have learned a lot....Now I have to go do some OTHER things. As I said, I will be at Moms sometime this summer....yall come visit when I am.
By the way I TOTally agree with Talones last post.
I was going to stay away from this; I have been pretty sucessful staying out of fracases this summer. However, there have been several things going on in this thread that I don't like. There have been many, many posts by Pam and her Mom that made me wish that I were that gifted in self expression. I would think it a great gift to have Pam for a friend, for I cannot find anything low, hateful or small in her posts. She has a gift of going to the crux of a matter and therin lies the rub, so to speak.
I also do not like the thinly veiled racism I see here. We can do better than that.
two little words that come from the heart - THANK YOU SDM
Quote from: Talone29 on June 22, 2009, 08:41:45 AM
I don't know about you but I am 100% full blooded American! I was born here. I am just as American as the native Americans.
QuoteRight, but i think you missed my point. I'm not saying that anyone born here or a legalized citizen of these United States isn't a 100% American.
I understand your point. Ethnicity has nothing to do with being American. In fact, to be American, you give up what country your ancestors came from and melt into the pot of America.
I have indian, croatian, scottish, and a bit of hillbilly in me but that doesn't make me American.
Being born here, raised here and my love for this country is what makes me that. I love this country just as much as any native American did. And i kinda believe that is what gets under my skin when i hear things like unless your a Native indian your not American. I know my family came over immigrated and worked their arses off to build this country into a strong nation.
QuoteOne of our biggest problems is that we spend way to much time bickering with one another because we don't all share the same opinion and we think that we need to change other peoples way of thinking so that it matches our own.
If you remember 9/11, we were bickering and fighting as a nation and when the towers came down, a whole nation came together with one mind and heart and stopped for a while. When the time for us to be of one mind and being together, we pull together.
Pam, weather you read this or not, I have to respond to the post you made (post #41). You accuse others of twisting what you say (post #54), well what did you do in that post? Just a few points, you stated "They take your means to protect yourself and build a fence around the way out you'll be walkin and askin how fast do you want me to go." Your wrong. That may be the way you were raised, but I was raised to defend my freedom and the freedom of my family to the death. Also, I never said that whites didn't do the things you say they did, I merely pointed out that they weren't the only ones to do it. So even though it is "2000 and freakin 9" I am not blind.
"They wanted someplace else to live...they came when nobody wanted them..that makes them illegal.....they stayed and took over....forced THEIR values and way of life on who was already here by force."-pamsback
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't waring tribes fight over who got to hunt where? Or where to make their camps? To me it is the same thing.
And one more thing, aren't wolves concered to be a sacred animal? Then why do some "natives" choose to keep them chained up in their backyard?
I am not being racists here, I actually respect the indian culture, I am just sick and tired of having it shoved in my face, like it has some kind of monopoly on morality. Like others have said I am 100% American and damn proud of it. But my question is why are other races allowed to stand up and proclaim their heritage without anyone screaming "racist", yet when a White person does it, it is racism?