I am confused. I thought I knew what a natural born citizen is, but I went looking anyway. No wonder the Chief Justices don't want to touch it.
So, would some of you knowledgeable people define it for me. I am not asking for anymore rhetoric as to why Obama is not a natural born citizen. I want to know what the law says makes a citizen natural born.
to my knowledge there has never been a legal definition. To me it means that a person must be born of citizens of the U.S.
I went through the california public school system, and they always told us that natural born citizen means that the president could only be someone who was actually born in the USA. The definition has kinda of evolved along 2 different paths over the years as new situations came up. You had people like Barry Goldwater who was born in arizona before it was a state, and going further back, Chester Arthur (the pres after Garfield) was born in Canada and his father wasn't an American Citizen.
There's kind of a catch 22 with the ongoing controversy regarding Obama's status that people aren't really facing. Lets say for the sake of argument that Obama was born outside of the US to an American mother and a British Father (his father was Kenyan, but had british citizenship). This sounds a lot like that Arthur guy right? The argument that he isn't a natural born citizen comes from a court case in which the supreme court said "children born abroad of Americans are not citizens within the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment" (Rogers v. Bellei) The basic idea is that when someone is born in another country, they instantly become a citizen of that country. So for example if Obama was born in Kenya, he actually would have been a british subject. Later when he came to the US, he would have had to have naturalization papers done.
The catch is, if you apply the same rules to McCain, he's not a natural born citizen either. McCain was actually born in Panama while his Father was stationed there. If you apply the same logic, McCain was a citizen of Panama per Panamanian law upon his birth. It's the same concept of illigal immigrants coming across the mexican border to have their children. You hear all the stories about the parents being deported for being illegal but the kids are citizens. Anyways, when McCain's family returned to the states, he actually didnt even go through the naturalization process. McCain wasn't made a citizen until much later when a law was passed to retroactively apply citizenship to all children of military families born abroad (8 U.S.C. § 1403)
Look, my point is, it's either neither or both. You can't apply the law to one guy and then apply it differently to another. Second, Even if you get Obama thrown out of office, we're all stuck with Joe Biden as president, and to be honest, i think thats kinda worse.
Thanks for that information.
I had not heard about Chester A. Arthur being born in Canada.
Officially, he was born in Fairfield, Vermont, which is about 15 miles from the Canadian border.
Apparently, his birthplace was an active issue in the presidential election campaign (similar to the charges against Obama) but the opponents could not prove anything (as in the case against Obama) and Chester did not produce anything to document his birth (similar to Obama).
The issue or definition of natural born citizen has never been addressed in the courts.
Arnold Schwarzenegger says he was naturally born and is a citizen of the United States.
I thought that was why he didn't run for president. He said that because he was austrian born it would have been unconstitutional. It is well documented fact that arnold is austrian.
I don't care where Arnold was born. Let's vote him in as President next time. He can't do any worse.
As for Joe Biden...he cracks me up. He is his own worst enemy and it really shows the brains of Obama to have him in there as VP.
Hillbilly, usually I agree with you, but arnold, as president, nooooo waaaaaayy!!! Now granted Comadant obama is bad, but King Flake of the Grainola state can't budget for a state, let alone 50 of 'em
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on May 19, 2009, 07:54:51 PM
yeah, and don't forget 11/08...
There are many things to remember regarding the eighth day of November.
* 1519 – Hernán Cortés enters Tenochtitlán and Aztec ruler Moctezuma welcomes him with a great celebration.
* 1520 – Stockholm Bloodbath begins: A successful invasion of Sweden by Danish forces results in the execution of around 100 people.
* 1576 – Eighty Years' War: Pacification of Ghent – The States-General of the Netherlands meet and unite to oppose Spanish occupation.
* 1602 – The Bodleian Library at Oxford University is opened to the public.
* 1620 – The Battle of White Mountain takes place near Prague, ending in a decisive Catholic victory in only two hours.
* 1793 – In Paris, the French Revolutionary government opens the Louvre to the public as a museum.
* 1837 – Mary Lyon founds Mount Holyoke Female Seminary, which later becomes Mount Holyoke College.
* 1861 – American Civil War: The "Trent Affair" – The USS San Jacinto stops the United Kingdom mail ship Trent and arrests two Confederate envoys, sparking a diplomatic crisis between the UK and US.
* 1889 – Montana is admitted as the 41st U.S. state.
* 1892 – The New Orleans general strike begins, uniting black and white American trade unionists in a successful four-day general strike action for the first time.
* 1895 – While experimenting with electricity, Wilhelm Röntgen discovers the X-ray.
* 1901 – Bloody clashes take place in Athens following the translation of the Gospels into demotic Greek.
* 1917 – The People's Commissars give authority to Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, and Joseph Stalin.
* 1923 – Beer Hall Putsch: In Munich, Adolf Hitler leads the Nazis in an unsuccessful attempt to overthrow the German government.
* 1932 – Franklin Delano Roosevelt is elected the 32d President of the United States defeating Herbert Hoover.
* 1933 – Great Depression: New Deal – US President Franklin D. Roosevelt unveils the Civil Works Administration, an organization designed to create jobs for more than 4 million of the unemployed.
* 1935 – A dozen labor leaders come together to announce the creation of the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO), an organization charged with advancing industrial unionism.
* 1937 – The Nazi exhibition Der ewige Jude ("The Eternal Jew") opens in Munich.
* 1939 – Venlo Incident: Two British agents of SIS are captured by the Germans.
* 1939 – In Munich, Adolf Hitler narrowly escapes the assassination attempt of Georg Elser while celebrating the 16th anniversary of the Beer Hall Putsch.
* 1941 – The Albanian Communist Party is founded.
* 1942 – World War II: Operation Torch – United States and United Kingdom forces land in French North Africa.
* 1942 – World War II: French resistance coup in Algiers, in which 400 civilian French patriots neutralize Vichyist XIXth Army Corps after 15 hours of fighting, and arrest several Vichyst generals, allowing the immediate success of Operation Torch in Algiers.
* 1950 – Korean War: United States Air Force Lt. Russell J. Brown shoots down two North Korean MiG-15s in the first jet aircraft-to-jet aircraft dogfight in history.
* 1957 – Operation Grapple X, Round C1: Britain conducts its first successful hydrogen bomb test over Kiritimati in the Pacific.
* 1960 – John Fitzgerald Kennedy is elected the 35th President of the United States defeating Richard M. Nixon.
* 1965 – The British Indian Ocean Territory is created, consisting of Chagos Archipelago, Aldabra, Farquhar and Des Roches islands.
* 1965 – The Murder (Abolition of the Death Penalty) Act 1965 is given Royal Assent, formally abolishing the death penalty in the United Kingdom.
* 1965 – The 173rd Airborne is ambushed by over 1,200 Viet Cong in Operation Hump during the Vietnam War.
* 1966 – Former Massachusetts Attorney General Edward Brooke becomes the first African American elected to the United States Senate.
* 1966 – U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson signs into law an antitrust exemption allowing the National Football League to merge with the upstart American Football League.
* 1973 – The right ear of John Paul Getty III is delivered to a newspaper together with a ransom note, convincing his father to pay 2.9 million USD.
* 1976 – A series of earthquakes spreads panic in the city of Thessaloniki, which is evacuated.
* 1977 – Manolis Andronikos, a Greek archaeologist and professor at the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, discovers the tomb of Philip II of Macedon at Vergina.
* 1979 – The Chilean Communist Party (Proletarian Action) is formed.
* 1987 – Remembrance Day Bombing: In Enniskillen, Northern Ireland, an Provisional Irish Republican Army bomb explodes, at a ceremony honoring Britain's war dead, killing twelve people.
* 1989 – Hong Kong's MTR Lam Tin Station comes into service.
* 2002 – Iraq disarmament crisis: UN Security Council Resolution 1441 – The United Nations Security Council unanimously approves a resolution on Iraq, forcing Saddam Hussein to disarm or face "serious consequences".
* 2004 – War in Iraq: More than 10,000 U.S. troops and a small number of Iraqi army units participate in a siege on the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah.
[edit] Births
* 35 – Nerva, Roman Emperor (d. 98)
* 1342 – Julian of Norwich, English saint (d. 1416)
* 1431 – Vlad III the Impaler, Wallachian prince (d. 1476)
* 1491 – Teofilo Folengo, Italian poet (d. 1544)
* 1622 – King Charles X of Sweden (d. 1660)
* 1656 – Edmond Halley, British astronomer and mathematician (d. 1742)
* 1706 – Johann Ulrich von Cramer, German judge and philosopher (d. 1772)
* 1710 – Sarah Fielding, English writer (d. 1768)
* 1715 – Elisabeth Christine von Braunschweig-Bevern, wife of Frederick II of Prussia (d. 1797)
* 1723 – John Byron, British naval officer (d. 1786)
* 1768 – Princess Augusta Sophia of the United Kingdom, (d. 1840)
* 1777 – Désirée Clary, queen of Sweden (d. 1860)
* 1836 – Milton Bradley, American game manufacturer (d. 1911)
* 1847 – Jean Casimir-Perier, French politician (d. 1907)
* 1847 – Bram Stoker, Irish novelist (d. 1912)
* 1848 – Gottlob Frege, German mathematician and logician (d. 1925)
* 1854 – Johannes Rydberg, Swedish physicist (d. 1919)
* 1866 – Herbert Austin, English automobile pioneer (d. 1941)
* 1868 – Felix Hausdorff, German mathematician (d. 1942)
* 1869 – Zinaida Gippius, Russian woman-poet in exile in France (d. 1945)
* 1883 – Arnold Bax, English composer (d. 1953)
* 1884 – Hermann Rorschach, Swiss psychiatrist (d. 1922)
* 1885 – Hans Cloos, German geologist (d. 1951)
* 1885 – Tomoyuki Yamashita, Japanese general (d. 1946)
* 1885 – Emil Fahrenkamp, German architect (d. 1966)
* 1888 – David Monrad Johansen, Norwegian composer (d. 1974)
* 1893 – Clarence Williams, American composer (d. 1965)
* 1893 – Prajadhipok, Rama VII, king of Thailand (d. 1941)
* 1895 – Photios Kontoglou, Greek writer, painter and iconographer (d. 1965)
* 1896 – Bucky Harris, baseball player (d. 1977)
* 1897 – Dorothy Day, social activist (d. 1980)
* 1898 – Marie Prevost, Canadian actress (d. 1937)
* 1900 – Margaret Mitchell, American author (d. 1949)
* 1900 – Charlie Paddock, American athlete (d. 1943)
* 1904 – Cedric Belfrage English-born writer (d. 1990)
* 1908 – Martha Gellhorn, American writer (d. 1998)
* 1913 – June Havoc, American actress
* 1918 – Hermann Zapf, German designer
* 1919 – P. L. Deshpande, Indian author (d. 2000)
* 1920 – Esther Rolle, American actress (d. 1998)
* 1920 – Eugênio de Araújo Sales, Brazilian cardinal
* 1922 – Christiaan Barnard, South African heart surgeon (d. 2001)
* 1922 – Ademir Marques de Menezes, Brazilian footballer (d. 1996)
* 1923 – Jack Kilby, American electrical engineer, Nobel laureate (d. 2005)
* 1924 – Joe Flynn, American actor (d. 1974)
* 1927 – Ken Dodd, English comedian
* 1927 – Nguyen Khanh, Prime Minister of South Vietnam
* 1927 – Patti Page, American singer
* 1929 – António Castanheira Neves, Portuguese philosopher
* 1929 – Bobby Bowden, American football coach
* 1931 – Darla Hood, American actress (d. 1979)
* 1931 – Morley Safer, Canadian journalist
* 1933 – Peter Arundell, British racing driver
* 1935 – Alain Delon, French actor
* 1935 – Alfonso López Trujillo, Colombian Cardinal Bishop (d.2008)
* 1938 – Driss Basri, Moroccan Interior Minister (d. 2007)
* 1942 – Angel Cordero Jr., Puerto Rican jockey
* 1943 – Martin Peters, English footballer
* 1944 – Bonnie Bramlett, American singer (Delaney, Bonnie & Friends)
* 1946 – Guus Hiddink, Dutch football coach
* 1946 – Roy Wood, English songwriter and musician (Electric Light Orchestra, The Move, Wizzard)
* 1947 – Minnie Riperton, American singer (d. 1979)
* 1949 – Bonnie Raitt, American singer
* 1949 – Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the National Rifle Association.
* 1950 – Mary Hart, American television personality
* 1951 – Alfredo Astiz, Argentine general
* 1952 – Jan Raas, Dutch cyclist
* 1952 – Jerry Remy, American baseball player, color commentator
* 1952 – Christie Hefner, CEO of Playboy Enterprises
* 1952 – John Denny, American baseball player
* 1952 – Alfre Woodard, American actress
* 1953 – John Musker, American animation director
* 1954 – David Bret, Anglo-French biographer and broadcaster
* 1954 – Michael D. Brown, U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency director
* 1954 – Kazuo Ishiguro, British author
* 1954 – Rickie Lee Jones, American singer
* 1954 – Jeanette McGruder, American musician (P Funk)
* 1956 – Steven Miller, American record producer
* 1956 – Richard Curtis, British screenwriter
* 1957 – Porl Thompson, British musician (The Cure)
* 1957 – Alan Curbishley, English football manager
* 1958 – Don Byron, American clarinetist
* 1960 – Oleg Menshikov, Russian actor
* 1960 – Michael Nyqvist, Swedish actor
* 1961 – Leif Garrett, American singer
* 1965 – Jeff Blauser, American baseball player
* 1965 – Craig Chester, American actor and screenwriter
* 1966 – Gordon Ramsay, British chef and reality television personality
* 1967 – Courtney Thorne-Smith, American actress
* 1967 – Kamar de los Reyes, American actor
* 1967 – Henry Rodriguez, Dominican Republic baseball player
* 1968 – Parker Posey, American actress
* 1968 – Zara Whites, Dutch actress
* 1968 – Sergio Porrini, Italian footballer
* 1968 – Jose Offerman, Dominican baseball player
* 1969 – Roxana Zal, American actress
* 1970 – Tom Anderson, co-founder of MySpace
* 1970 – José Francisco Porras, Costa Rican footballer
* 1970 – Diana King, Jamaican singer
* 1971 – Carlos Atanes, Spanish film director
* 1971 – Aaron Yates (Tech N9NE), American rapper
* 1972 – Gretchen Mol, American actress
* 1973 – Vanesa Littlecrow, Puerto Rican cartoonist, dancer, writer and model
* 1974 – Matthew Rhys, Welsh actor
* 1974 – Masashi Kishimoto, Japanese manga author
* 1974 – Seishi Kishimoto, Japanese manga author
* 1975 – Tara Reid, American actress
* 1975 – José Pinto, Spanish footballer
* 1976 – Brett Lee, Australian cricketer
* 1976 – Colin Strause, American director
* 1977 – Bucky Covington, American entertainer
* 1977 – Jully Black, Canadian R&B singer
* 1977 – Nick Punto, American baseball player
* 1978 – Ali Karimi, Iranian footballer
* 1978 – Júlio Sérgio Bertagnoli, Brazilian footballer
* 1978 – Tim de Cler, Dutch footballer
* 1978 – Maurice Evans, American basketball player
* 1978 – Spyros Gogolos, Greek footballer
* 1979 – Aaron Hughes, Northern Irish footballer
* 1979 – Dania Ramírez, Dominican actress
* 1980 – Ana Vidovic, classical guitarist
* 1980 – Luis Fabiano, Brazilian footballer
* 1981 – Joe Cole, English footballer
* 1982 – Mika Kallio, Finnish Grand Prix motorcycle racer
* 1982 – Lynndie England, former U.S. Army reservist, associated with Abu Ghraib
* 1982 – Sam Sparro, Australian producer, songwriter, performer, former child actor
* 1982 – Ted DiBiase Jr., Professional wrestler in WWE
* 1983 – Kat Shoob, British television presenter
* 1983 – Blanka Vlašić, Croatian high jumper
* 1983 – Remko Pasveer, Dutch footballer
* 1985 – Jack Osbourne, English television star
* 1987 – Sam Bradford, American football player and winner of the 2008 Heisman Trophy
* 1987 – Samantha Droke, American actress
* 2003 – Lady Louise Windsor, British royal
[edit] Deaths
* 911 – Louis the Child, last Carolingian ruler of the East Franks (b. 893)
* 955 – Pope Agapetus II
* 1115 – Godfrey of Amiens
* 1171 – Baldwin IV, Count of Hainaut (b. 1108)
* 1195 – Conrad of Hohenstaufen
* 1226 – King Louis VIII of France (b. 1187)
* 1246 – Berenguela of Castile, wife of Alfonso IX of Castile (b. 1180)
* 1308 – Duns Scotus, Scottish philosopher
* 1517 – Francisco Cardinal Jiménez de Cisneros, Spanish statesman (b. 1436)
* 1527 – Jerome Emser, German theologian (b. 1477)
* 1599 – Francisco Guerrero, Spanish composer (b. 1528)
* 1600 – Natsuka Masaie, Japanese warlord (b. 1562)
* 1605 – Robert Catesby, English conspirator (b. 1573)
* 1658 – Witte Corneliszoon de With, Dutch naval officer (b. 1599)
* 1674 – John Milton, English poet (b. 1608)
* 1719 – Michel Rolle, French mathematician (b. 1652)
* 1817 – Andrea Appiani, Italian painter (b. 1754)
* 1830 – King Francis I of the Two Sicilies (b. 1777)
* 1873 – Breton de los Herreros, Spanish playwright (b. 1796)
* 1887 – John Henry "Doc" Holliday, American gambler and gunfighter (b. 1851)
* 1890 – César Franck, Belgian composer and organist (b. 1822)
* 1905 – Victor Borisov-Musatov, Russian painter (b. 1870)
* 1917 – Colin Blythe, English cricketer (b. 1879)
* 1921 – Pavol Országh Hviezdoslav, Slovak poet (b. 1849)
* 1934 – Carlos Chagas, Brazilian physician (b. 1879)
* 1944 – Walter Nowotny, Austrian/German fighter pilot (b. 1920)
* 1945 – August von Mackensen, German field marshal (b. 1849)
* 1949 – Cyriel Verschaeve, Belgian clergyman (b. 1874)
* 1953 – Ivan Alekseyevich Bunin, Russian writer, Nobel Prize laureate (b. 1870)
* 1953 – John van Melle, South African author (b. 1887)
* 1959 – Frank Sherman Land, founder of DeMolay International (b. 1890)
* 1965 – Dorothy Kilgallen, American newspaper columnist (b. 1913)
* 1968 – Wendell Corey, American actor (b. 1914)
* 1970 – Huw Thomas Edwards, Welsh trade unionist and politician (b. 1892)
* 1974 – Ivory Joe Hunter, American R&B singer, pianist and songwriter (b. 1914)
* 1977 – Bucky Harris, American baseball player (b. 1896)
* 1978 – Norman Rockwell, American illustrator (b. 1894)
* 1979 – Yvonne de Gaulle, wife of Charles de Gaulle (b. 1900)
* 1983 – Mordecai Kaplan, Rabbi, founded Reconstructionist Judaism (b. 1881)
* 1983 – James Booker, American jazz singer (b. 1939)
* 1985 – Nicolas Frantz, Luxembourgish cyclist (b. 1899)
* 1985 – Jacques Hnizdovsky, Ukrainian-American painter, printmaker, sculptor, ex libris designer, book illustrator (b. 1915)
* 1986 – Vyacheslav Molotov, Russian politician (b. 1890)
* 1993 – Andrey Nikolayevich Tychonoff, Russian mathematician (b. 1906)
* 1994 – Michael O'Donoghue, American writer (b. 1940)
* 1998 – John Hunt, Baron Hunt, British expedition leader of the first successful ascent of Everest (b. 1910)
* 1998 – Jean Marais, French actor (b. 1913)
* 1999 – Lester Bowie, American jazz trumpet player (b. 1941)
* 1999 – Leon Štukelj, Slovenian gymnast (b. 1898)
* 2002 – Jon Elia, Pakistani scholar, poet and philosopher (b. 1931)
* 2003 – Bob Grant, English actor (b. 1932)
* 2003 – C. Z. Guest, American socialite (b. 1920)
* 2003 – Guy Speranza, American singer, original Riot frontman (b. 1956)
* 2004 – Peter Mathers, English-born Australian novelist (b. 1931)
* 2005 – David Westheimer, American novelist (b. 1917)
* 2005 – Alekos Alexandrakis, Greek actor (b. 1928)
* 2006 – Basil Poledouris, American film score composer (b. 1945)
* 2006 – Hannspeter Winter, Austrian plasma physicist (b. 1941)
* 2007 – Dulce Saguisag, Filipino politician and former DSWD Secretary. (b. 1943)
* 2007 – Chad Varah, English founder of charity The Samaritans (b. 1911)
[edit] Holidays and observances
* Roman calendar
* Mundus patet: a harvest feast involving the dead.
* Synaxis of the Archangel Michael and the other Bodiless Powers of Heaven in Greece, Cyprus and all other Eastern Orthodox Churches worldwide
* Saint Demetrius Day (Mitrovdan) in Yugoslavia (Eastern Orthodox)
* Feast of Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity in the Catholic Church and Godfrey of Amiens
For those that didn't follow....I was speaking of the election of Comrade obama. I was comparing his election to other great tragedies that have befallen America.
My combativeness.... is why my messages are so great. I believe in my country and will not just sit idlely by and watch it be torn down. I believe some things are worth fighting for.
Unfortunately, Billy's message is lost by his tone. It only plays to those that agree with him and learned their political debate from Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh. Makes for good entertainment and is good listening. Billy you are good for entertainment and you have some great ideas. Don't misconstrue what I say as being a plea for you to stop. I enjoy you as much as anyone.
David
If I might return to the original point of this thread.... As it is now, children born here, regardless of the status of the parents are natural born citizens. Some of that was to somehow accommodate slaves who had no status 'way back when. Now its being abused by illegals. I think, for the sake of the kids, that should be changed so the illegals don't have unrealistic expectations for their children. We have one case going on here right now. The mom came here as an illegal years ago and had two kids. She was recently caught and will soon be deported. What becomes of her kids? They are citizens and can't be deported.They are too young to be on their own. So far nobody has offered to take them in.They have nothing to look forward to in Mexico, don't even speak much Spanish. Now what?
Diane, that is clearly an example of our system being abused by someone with no right to abuse it. Frankly, I don't care what the conditions are in Mexico, thats their problem. I say, send the mom and her kids back.
So long live the constitution, unless it's inconsistent with your own personal views?
Like i mentioned in my previous post, you can't have one set of rules for one group of people and another set for another group of people. It's un-american.
I don't disagree, but the problem the folks who have to decide are having is the fact that the kids were born here 12 and 14 years ago. According to our own law the kids are citizens and can't be deported. We need to change our law so that children of illegals, who are born here, aren't natural born citizens. As it is we are stuck with our own very old law. She is on schedule to be deported.The kids don't want to go and can't be forced but then what.
Keep the kids and send Mom packing? Who, pray tell, is going to take care of said kids? Put them in institutions run on tax dollars?
Why not?? We have children here on welfare whose mothers are criminals, whats a few more? (please note the sarcasm on that)
Sarcasm noted. But, really, what are the kids expected to do? I can't see a solution to this either, unless some kind folks could take them in until they are of age. Maybe they could be given a choice, foster home or going home with their mother.
I saw this on the news a while back; parents who came from Mexico illegally have children and were in the top schools, top in their class, etc. When the parents got deported (they had good jobs), the children went, too. Now the children are living in a city where they barely understand the language and I'm not sure if they even go to school. Almost like foreigners themselves.
BUT, I thought at one time that if a child was born in the US, their parents had a right to become citizens of the US? The reason I thought this is that a friend, fresh out of high school, went to somewhere in S. America for study abroad classes one semester, got pregnant, and when her baby was born (in the US) the father could be allowed into the US. Apparently this isn't true anymore (ever)?
Anmar, what is your point? Yes, all men are created equal, that doesn't make them all citizens of the same country.
Not really a contradiction as it is a change of mind. My first post you quoted I stated kick both mom and kids out. The children being born here makes them american citizens and by law kicking them out would be wrong. I agree with diane in that the law needs to be changed.
Second, the right to pursue happiness does not give people the right to break the law.