Ok, no need to respond just consider what I am saying. It seems to me that the political section has deteriorated to just plain bickering and one line statements of facts. I know we can have better discussions. In the future if I participate in this, as I have done in the past, I hope someone brings it to my attention. A few rounds are ok and normal ,but we seem to be in a vortex. Time to take a break for me. Carry on, not that you need my permission. See some of you in the Poetry section and the Coffee shop. >:( :(
David
:'( :'( David, I'm sorry. I feel terrible for contributing to your disappointment. :'( :'(
But, he is right. There aren't any real answers being presented. Would you believe that I typed in isn't instead of aren't.
Quote from: dnalexander on May 01, 2009, 03:54:12 PM
Ok, no need to respond just consider what I am saying. It seems to me that the political section has deteriorated to just plain bickering and one line statements of facts. I know we can have better discussions. In the future if I participate in this, as I have done in the past, I hope someone brings it to my attention. A few rounds are ok and normal ,but we seem to be in a vortex. Time to take a break for me. Carry on, not that you need my permission. See some of you in the Poetry section and the Coffee shop. >:( :(
David
Your uncle and I were discussing this very thing earlier...Move over...I'll bring the coffee, you write the poetry! lol
This Political section has never had such excitement in it since we opened it up
Bickering? Well hell yes...
politics and the way our Country and government is going isn't all poetry and sipping lattes..
Sorry to totally disagree with you but I think everyone has been learning quite a bit. And I think that the conversations have been informative respectful and interesting.
All sections of the forum are used by the people who enjoy that particular section.. so if you enjoy poems.. then by all means.. that is where you will be the happiest..
As for me.. I didn't know we had this much passion in Elk County..
I'm proud of all of you who have put their opinions in this section...It sometimes gets a bit "driven".. but without it.. what do you have? A boring site. :-\
*** Just a tidbit of information.. our unique visits have almost doubled this past month.. and guess where the most of the # comes from?
Yep... the politics thread.. Just because only a basket full of people are talking..a whoooole lot of people are reading.. ;D
Teresa you just proved my point. Thanks.
David
I know I'm blond...............but.......what? ???
I am not blond ( for quite some many years ago) But David ??? What Point? Enlighten us!
The point that what a few are posting is seen by many, many more...and conclusions are drawn, for better or worse. As some were fond of saying in earlier posts, that's the point where you put on your big boy underwear and have to live with what you've put out there. Been there...Done that...Barely survived it and don't recommend it for long-term survivability.
I will let David make his point in his way, but I see where he is going with this. Some of the conversations or subjects of interest do draw one line comments, some cynical and others sarcastic. AND, a lot of the time the original subject or I should say object of discussion deteriorates into something else. I think (my opinion) that if somebody has an informed thought on the subject in question, then by all means, enter it into the forum and explain in detail why you feel that way. OR, put in a website that covers the topic thereby allowing everyone to form their own opinion.
I have to say that when I found and joined this forum I was truly amazed at some the things that were being discussed. I don't mean that in a bad way. There are subjects discussed here that are not discussed in SoCal usually, and should be. For instance, other than the county sheriff holding a gun buy-back plan on Mother's Day, I never hear or read anything about the second amendment which is discussed a lot on this forum.
So, David, hang in there. Just look at the parts you want to see and ignore those you don't. Myself, I get a little daily enlightenment from the religion part and check out the coffee shop, hope nobody I know passed away, remember the good old days, and then dive right into the Politics where I get intelligent information from people like you, and Warph, and Billy, and Dianne, and Wilma, I could go on and on, but you see where I am going with this. I even read the Poetry section on occasion.
Larryj
Hey, don't forget me, boys. I have learned more since Obama became president than I ever learned in school. Maybe more than I need to. But I do kind of miss the chatty way things used to be. And I try not to say things on here that I don't want to have come back and bite me.
Quote from: dnalexander on May 01, 2009, 03:54:12 PM
Ok, no need to respond just consider what I am saying. It seems to me that the political section has deteriorated to just plain bickering and one line statements of facts. I know we can have better discussions. In the future if I participate in this, as I have done in the past, I hope someone brings it to my attention. A few rounds are ok and normal ,but we seem to be in a vortex. Time to take a break for me. Carry on, not that you need my permission. See some of you in the Poetry section and the Coffee shop. >:( :(
David
Daily Planet Memo:
SuperWarph, Jimmy Olson feels you need to lengthen your comments more than what you have been doing in the politics' section. Try to add seven or more paragraphs to each comment. Jimmy's a good kid so lets give him what he wants. You know how bad the coffee is in the break room.... hate to see the kid come down with a horrorible case of coffeeitus... then we would have to call in Diane and "The Catwoman" to straighten him out. BTW, what's going on between you and Lois ??? ??? ???
---Perry White ;D
Holy Cow. ;D
Facts..okay heres some facts.
1) there is no such thing as equality. the only time people are equal is at birth and death, everything in between is left up to the individual. The Left would have that disspelled. They think that those that "have" should give to those that don't.
2) This country was founded on Christian ideals, and notions. It is because of those ideals that we allow other faiths as well. Yet, Christians are mocked when they stand up for their ideals while other faiths are just excrising their freedom of speech.
3) Guns don't kill people anymore than cars force people to drive drunk; spoons, knives, and forks are to blame for people being fat; and evil white men with money are to blame for this countrys problems.
If you feel that the politics section has become nothing more than pithy one liners than feel free to leave or counter those "one line statements of facts" with better thought out or researched information. Either way, enjoy your coffee!
Already? I did just finish my coffee.... Those founding fathers were products of their time, just as we are now. They thought slavery was OK for those who had slaves. Women had no vote and for representation, blacks were counted as 3/5 of a man. I'm not sure if the Native American population was counted at all, but I'm not sure. Were those Christian Ideals? The constitution wasn't written perfectly or there would have been no room for interpretation and no need for amendments or their interpretation. We've come along way since then. They did a wonderful job starting the engine, but the amendments will fine tune us as a nation for years to come. Have a nice Saturday.
If we are going to admend the consitiution to fit our lifestyle then what is the point of having it? No, the Founders were not perfect, they knew that, that is why the Constitution is written the way that it is. However, the first 10 admendments are fairly cut and dried. Should we "fine tune" those as well? Say, with the Fairness Doctrine or Hate Speech laws?
The point that I was getting at Diane is that David stated the debate had eroded to one liners backed up with very little fact. I disagree to a point. Facts had been presented.
Billy, the constitution has already been ammended many times! :angel:
Diane, slavery was legal then and it was left over from the colonies.
Now, I wouldn't want to be a slave anymore than anyone else but
that's the way it was.
I didn't want to get into this on this thread, but okay.
You're right catwoman, it has been admendend many times. Some I agree with, some I don't. But the beauty of the thing is that it allows and protects dissenting opinion. And bear in mind that it was written to restrict the powers of the gov't, not the people. The gov't fails to realize this.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on May 02, 2009, 09:21:16 AM
However, the first 10 admendments are fairly cut and dried.
Cut and dried because they are inalienable rights. Given to all men by God and not subject to the manipulation of man.
I simply wanted to state that slavery cannot be a Christian ideal, so our founding fathers weren't as Christian as we think. They too were the politicians of their time. They didn't want trouble from slave holding colonies. It was politically convenient to overlook slavery in favor of other things, so they did. Slavery being legal then doesn't suddenly make it Christian.
So - are you saying that nowadays, our society and we are more Christian
than those folks in the early days of the USA?
Even with legal slavery back then, how can we be so much greater or
so much more "civilized"?
Diane you show me someone today that is a perfect Christian? Yes they had slaves. That doesn't make the Ideals any less Christian. Do you know how many quotes there are from the Founders espousing their belief in God and that gov't actions should be based on those Ideals?
Black columnist Walter Williams has some good points too:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=96411
You missed the point! Even they would set aside their Christian beliefs when there was a political advantage. It s not about who is or isn't a better Christian. It's about politics then and now. Politicians then as now often say things that they don't actually do.
A perfect Christian? I lived beside two when I was growing up. They lived their Christianity every day. Then there was a lady in Severy that was as perfect as a human can be. And later I worked taxes for a couple that had such an aura about them that you could feel it and it made you feel good. Later their daughter came in and she had the same aura. Yes there are Christians that are as perfect as humans can be. I wish I were one of them.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 02, 2009, 10:22:29 AM
I simply wanted to state that slavery cannot be a Christian ideal, so our founding fathers weren't as Christian as we think. They too were the politicians of their time. They didn't want trouble from slave holding colonies. It was politically convenient to overlook slavery in favor of other things, so they did. Slavery being legal then doesn't suddenly make it Christian.
Since christians are to emulate God, then are you saying that God wasno't as Godlike as he should have been? The reason i ask is God did not condemn slavery. He in fact set rules for the slave holder to follow concerning their slaves.
Who was I trying to kid anyway? We all know there was no way I could stay out of politics. To those of you that want to bicker; carry on your petulant, rude, insolent quarreling. (Billy that is not the same as pithy). I can meet any one on their own terms. How dare I ask for anyone to stop bickering. Now I will try to reply to all your posts. To those of you that considered what I had to say thank you.
Diane you can never do anything wrong in my eyes, if you do you have a free pass by me.
Teresa, you know I am way more than just coffee and poetry. I appreciate the site. Just don't like the bickering. My mom is a real blonde so I don't subscribe to the dumb blonde theory.
Jo I know you support your daughter. You remind me of my Aunts and I think you are a great person.
Larry I agree with your whole post. I spent many years in LA and I am glad you are here. Maybe I can hook you up with my LA buddies that also, support the 2nd Amendment.
Wilma, I respect your wisdom. You get a free pass too.
SuperWarph. I have always learned a lot from you. I respect you. Keep up the good work. Besides where else can I go and be called a kid except here with all you old folks? Lois is fine. I forgot to do the laundry the other day and had to wear one of her g-strings. I live in California, thought I would get in touch with my feminine side. Now I know what getting your panties in a bunch means. Obvious from my original post. You don't have to have Diane and\or Catwoman set me straight they would do it on there own if they thought it necessary.
Billy thanks for all your posts. I appreciate all your hard work and the fact that you reply to all posts.
Billy, redcliffsw, Sarge. I share many of your Libertarian thoughts.
Everyone thanks for just considering my request to minimize the bickering.
David
I would never try to "straighten" you up, David.. ;D...You're perfect the way you are! I am one who truly appreciated your efforts to maintain some old-fashioned civility on this Forum. It is very easy for the process of arguing the points to become thinly veiled cyber-bullying when the points are not agreed upon in a like manner.
Quote from: Catwoman on May 02, 2009, 10:41:03 PM
I would never try to "straighten" you up, David.. ;D...You're perfect the way you are! I am one who truly appreciated your efforts to maintain some old-fashioned civility on this Forum. It is very easy for the process of arguing the points to become thinly veiled cyber-bullying when the points are not agreed upon in a like manner.
Thank you Catwoman, but you know I am not puuuurrrrfect. Thank you for supporting my stance on some old fashioned civility. We all stray from that lesson from time to time. It is one of my most cherished lessons from being a "Kansas Boy", the world can use a good dose of good old fashioned Midwestern manners.
David
Yes, yes and YES!!!! Old fashioned civility is the name of the game and really means a lot! It has always been a fact that ideas become lost when cussin and insults come to the forefront. You really cannot be persuaded to even consider an idea when it is presented with insults and curse words concerning your own ideas. Silly me, I thought I was alone or nearly so with this attitude.
You are not alone!!!!
That makes three of us. You, Diane and me.
You guys are so right...it is always better to insult someone on the sly, or behind their back on a different thread. Right? >:(
Huh? If I have ever actually insulted anyone I apoligise. I might not agree with someone, but I certainly don't mean to insult anyone as part of the process.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on May 03, 2009, 11:46:06 AM
You guys are so right...it is always better to insult someone on the sly, or behind their back on a different thread. Right? >:(
Since when is keeping your cutting remarks to yourself insulting someone? If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all (don't we remember some parents making this statement?). There is a marked difference between presenting facts (and discussing those facts in a civil manner) and making broad, sweeping statements that are good for very little other than angering others. I believe the term in use here would be diplomacy. I do not make the claim of being able to be consistently diplomatic...However, when I know that my firmly held beliefs run contrary to what I am reading in a thread, I keep those beliefs to myself and allow others the comfort of not having to be confronted with something that is not going to make one bit of difference in either their beliefs or their daily way of life. I happen to believe that my rights END where other people's rights begin. There is no infinitely expanding edge to my rights, much as I would like to believe otherwise. I know I sound odd, in the age of limitless entitlement...But I also know that basic thought-out civility is the one of the few things that differentiate us from the animals that surround us. Now...let the screaming begin! lol
Cat, I was talking about cutting remarks that have not been kept in check.
Quote from: Catwoman on May 03, 2009, 12:27:18 PM
Since when is keeping your cutting remarks to yourself insulting someone?
I was talking about comments that weren't kept unchecked.
Quote from: Catwoman on May 03, 2009, 12:27:18 PM
There is a marked difference between presenting facts (and discussing those facts in a civil manner) and making broad, sweeping statements that are good for very little other than angering others.
You mean like "goading" people?
Quote from: Catwoman on May 03, 2009, 12:27:18 PM
[However, when I know that my firmly held beliefs run contrary to what I am reading in a thread, I keep those beliefs to myself and allow others the comfort of not having to be confronted with something that is not going to make one bit of difference in either their beliefs or their daily way of life.
Then what is the purpose of disscusion or debate if it only involves people with a like mind. Seem kinda "narrow" to me.
As for excrising my rights, I will do so wether or not other folks like it or not. Thats why they are called Rights, they cannot be taken away just because others might not agree it.
I have absolutely no problem with scholarly, intellectual discourse between two individuals who have the ability to agree to disagree in an adult manner. There is nothing narrow in that scope...Some of the greatest minds in the world, who have nothing more in common than the shared oxygen in the room, have been able to think their way through world-impacting situations using that very method.
As for exercising your rights, you're entirely within your rights to do so...I just simply was advocating a less egocentric way of approaching things...(uh, point of clarification...i.e. letting your care for others be greater than your care for yourself...the term has nothing to do with being egotistical). The point of a forum to let all sides be heard...I was merely agreeing with David that there is a need for civility in the practice of that activity. Narrow? I don't think so...Civilization has allowed the hominids to evolve beyond clubbing each other over the head for having different views. There are plenty of socially acceptable ways to present your views and beliefs.
And once you have presented them, what is the purpose of repeating them and repeating and repeating?
Simply put wilma, I like to win.
So do I. Where's the middle?
The middle? That would be me. ;D I like to have a good debate without having to declare a winner or a loser.
AMEN, Diane! ;D
Well.. we have established what and why everyone says and does what they do in the way that they want to do it..
My downfall is... I get so damned darn frustrated that I have to cuss..
So if I'm quiet.. I'm usually gone or so upset that I'm not typing.. only cussing in the background.. ;D ;D
:angel:
:o :o ;D ;D
Teresa, that looks like a Betsy Ross flag. It represented this country early-on when we stood for the Constitution.
It's a shame there isn't more documented proof about those early flags. Lots of circumstantial evidence, but nothing in writing. Those folks wrote about a lot, but not the flag or for sure who designed or actually sewed it/them. I think it is extremely likely that she did, but it can't be proved. I only mentioned this because some of you are concerned about what is taught. If this is taught correctly then that would have to be mentioned also.
Quote from: redcliffsw on May 03, 2009, 09:19:48 PM
Teresa, that looks like a Betsy Ross flag. It represented this country early-on when we stood for the Constitution.
right you are redcliffsw.......right you are! ;D