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NRA Targets Obama
September 22, 2008
Updated: September 29, 2008
It falsely claims in mailers and TV ads that Obama plans to ban handguns, hunting ammo and use of a gun for home defense.
Summary
A National Rifle Association advertising campaign distorts Obama's position on gun control beyond recognition.
The NRA is circulating printed material and running TV ads making unsubstantiated claims that Obama plans to ban use of firearms for home defense, ban possession and manufacture of handguns, close 90 percent of gun shops and ban hunting ammunition.
Much of what the NRA passes off as Obama's "10 Point Plan to 'Change' the Second Amendment" is actually contrary to what he has said throughout his campaign: that he "respects the constitutional rights of Americans to bear arms" and "will protect the rights of hunters and other law-abiding Americans to purchase, own, transport, and use guns."
The NRA, however, simply dismisses Obama's stated position as "rhetoric" and substitutes its own interpretation of his record as a secret "plan." Said an NRA spokesman: "We believe our facts."
Perhaps so, but believing something doesn't make it so. And we find the NRA has cherry-picked, twisted and misrepresented Obama's record to come up with a bogus "plan."
Update, Sept. 29: The Obama campaign asked broadcasters to take down ads from the NRA, citing this article and a separate Washington Post article that called the ads misleading. The NRA attacked us on its Web site, claiming that we are neither impartial nor independent. We respond in the Analysis section.
Analysis
The NRA announced it will spend $40 million during this year's elections, including $15 million to portray Sen. Barack Obama as a threat to gun rights. The NRA has been circulating fliers and mailers that claim to be "Barack Obama's 10-Point Plan to 'Change' the Second Amendment." And on Sept. 22 reports surfaced that the NRA had launched TV ads in several key states, also attacking Obama. They are false portrayals.
The flier looks almost as though it comes from the Obama campaign. It uses the same color and font scheme as well as the campaign's sunrise logo. And on some points it is right; Obama has called for national legislation against carrying concealed firearms, and he would revive and make permanent the expired ban on semi-automatic "assault weapons," for example. On other points it exaggerates. Obama has spoken in favor of government registration of handguns, for example, but has not called for registration of all "firearms" including hunting rifles and shotguns. But the TV spots and fliers also make claims that are directly contrary to what Obama actually says about guns.
What Obama Says
Obama lays out his basic stance on guns in a "Sportsmen" fact sheet and also in an "Urban Policy" paper on reducing gun violence. The NRA's claims find little support here.
Regarding a Constitutional right to guns, Obama says:
Obama, "Sportsmen": Barack Obama believes the Second Amendment creates an individual right, and he respects the constitutional rights of Americans to bear arms. He will protect the rights of hunters and other law-abiding Americans to purchase, own, transport, and use guns.
On the issue of urban policy, Obama says he favors "commonsense measures" to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children, and that he would bring back the expired "assault weapon" ban and make it permanent:
Obama, "Urban Policy": Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals who shouldn't have them. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent, as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets.
What the NRA Claims
Despite what Obama says, the NRA's material claims that he plans to take such extreme measures as to "ban use of firearms for home self defense" and "ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns." Where does the NRA come up with these? We contacted Andrew Arulanandam, the NRA's director of public affairs. He declined to speak to us except to say that the claims are based on Obama's voting record and statements he has made in the media. "We're comfortable with what we put on there," Arulanandam said. "We believe our facts."
The NRA's lobbying arm, the NRA Institute for Legislative Action, lists several such "facts" about Obama, including the 10 claims listed on the flier. The NRA-ILA brushes aside Obama's stated position. "Don't Believe Obama," it says. "Don't listen to his campaign rhetoric! Look instead to what he has said and done during his entire political career."
Very well. Let's do that. What we find is that the NRA is often offering its own spin as Obama's "plan."
NRA Claim: "Ban use of Firearms for Home Self-Defense"
NRA Ad: "Veteran"
Kurt Rusch: Like all the guys I fought with in Iraq, I was honored to defend our country and our freedom. But when I got back stateside, I learned that Barack Obama opposes my right to own a handgun for self -defense. It's ridiculous.
Out there in the desert, defeat was not an option. Sure, combat was hell, but on the frontline, I knew I served a real purpose. Defeating terrorism. Protecting our way of life. That's what it's all about. There's no way I'm voting for a president who will take that away.
The freedoms that I fought for and my friends died to defend. I served my country on the battlefield to protect our freedom. There's no way I'm voting for a president who will take them away.
Announcer: On November 4, defend freedom, defeat Obama. Get the facts at GunBanObama.com. False: Obama is proposing no such ban.
This falsehood from the "10 point plan" flier is repeated in a TV spot in which a man identified as Kurt Rusch, an Iraq war veteran says, "Obama opposes my right to own a gun for self-defense."
The NRA bases this overheated claim on a vote Obama cast on March 24, 2004, in the Illinois state Senate. He was one of 20 who opposed SB 2165. That bill, which passed 38 - 20 and became law, did not make it a crime to use firearms for self-defense, however. Rather, it created a loophole for persons caught violating local gun registration laws.
It states that in any Illinois municipality where gun registration is required it shall be an "affirmative defense" if the person accused of violating the registration requirement can show that the weapon was used "in an act of self-defense or defense of another ... when on his or her land or in his or her abode or fixed place of business."
Letting the owner of an unregistered firearm escape the penalty for failing to register is one thing, but it's another thing entirely to make it a crime to use any firearm – registered or not – in self-defense.
The bill came about after Hale DeMar, of Wilmette, Ill., shot a burglar who had invaded his home. At the time, Wilmette had an ordinance that prohibited owning handguns.
NRA Claim: "Ban Rifle Ammunition Commonly Used for Hunting and Sport Shooting"
False: Obama is not proposing to ban hunting ammunition. And he did not, as claimed in an NRA TV spot featuring a Virginia hunter named Karl Rusch, vote to "ban virtually all deer hunting ammunition." What Obama voted for was a measure to ban "armor-piercing" ammunition, which the measure's sponsor has said repeatedly would not cover hunting ammunition.
This claim is based on Obama's vote on S. 397 in the U.S. Senate. Obama was one of 31 senators who voted in favor of S. Amdt. 1615 to S. 397 which sought to "expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition."
NRA Ad: "Hunter"
Karl Rusch: I gotta tell you, with the high cost of gas and just about everything else, we're all feeling pinched. And now I learn that Barack Obama supports a huge new tax on my guns and ammo. And he voted to ban virtually all deer hunting ammunition. Where is this guy from? He's probably never been hunting a day in his life.
But it's not just new taxes that Barack Obama wants. If you can believe it, he also supports a ban on the shotguns and rifles that most of us use for hunting. No politician is going to take away my guns and ammo.
You don't have to be bitter to know that Barack Obama isn't the kind of change we need.
Announcer: On November 4th, defend freedom, defeat Obama. Get the facts at GunBanObama.com.
The amendment applied only to handgun ammunition "capable of penetrating body armor" and to rifle ammunition that is "designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability," however.
It's true that common high-powered rifle bullets are capable of penetrating the vests worn by police, which are a defense chiefly against lower-velocity handgun rounds. But does that mean hunting ammunition is "designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability"? Or that a rifle round that some handguns might accept would be banned? That's the NRA's argument, and it was repeated on the floor of the Senate by Republican Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky. He said flatly that the measure "would ban nearly all hunting rifle ammunition," without any elaboration. However, the measure's sponsor, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, said his amendment was not intended to cover hunting ammunition:
Sen. Kennedy (July 29, 2005): This is not about hunting. We know duck and geese and deer do not wear armor vests; police officers do.
Kennedy's measure failed by a vote of 64 - 31.
By the way, the NRA has used this ploy before. It ran ads in 2004 claiming Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry had voted "to ban deer-hunting ammunition" when he had actually voted on an earlier occasion for this same Kennedy amendment on armor-piercing rounds. Kennedy said then:
Sen. Kennedy (March 2, 2004): My amendment will not apply to ammunition that is now routinely used in hunting rifles or other centerfire rifles. To the contrary, it only covers ammunition that is designed or marketed as having armor-piercing capability.
Clarification, Sept. 29: We originally misstated the NRA's argument. The group rests its case on the amendment's language regarding handgun ammunition, not rifle ammunition. The NRA argument goes this way: The Kennedy amendment would have covered ammunition that "may" be used in a handgun and is "capable" of piercing police body armor. A few uncommon handguns can accept rifle rounds, such as the Weatherby Mark V CFP or the Thompson Contender.
Weatherby Mark V CFP
Thompson Contender
Therefore, the NRA says, Kennedy's language could be interpreted as banning high-velocity rifle rounds used for hunting, which can penetrate police body armor.
We grant that it is a theoretical possibility that some future administration could interpret Kennedy's language as banning common hunting ammunition, despite Kennedy's clear statement of intent to the contrary. But we judge the likelihood of that to be vanishingly small, given the outcry that would surely follow.
In any case, what the NRA claims in its TV ad is that Obama "voted to ban virtually all deer hunting ammunition." There was no such vote. If the NRA wants to argue that Obama's vote on armor-piercing ammunition could be misinterpreted and applied to hunting ammunition, they should say so honestly.
NRA Claim: "Ban the Manufacture, Sale and Possession of Handguns"
False: Obama says he does not support any such handgun ban and never has. He supports "reasonable restrictions on the sale and possession of handguns" (not manufacture) and has said a ban is not "politically practicable."
The NRA bases its claim on a disputed 1996 questionnaire that Obama's Illinois state Senate campaign filled out for the nonprofit voting group, Independent Voters of Illinois-Independent Precinct Organization. On it, somebody filled in the word "yes" in response to the question, "Do you support legislation to ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns?" But the Obama campaign said that the survey was actually filled out by his then-campaign manager who "unintentionally mischaracterized his position," adding that Obama never saw the survey.
As we wrote previously, an amended version of the questionnaire was later submitted to the group, with Obama's handwritten notes on it providing more detail on some of the answers. Obama clearly saw and handled this version personally and did not alter the question about banning the sale and manufacturing of guns. Nevertheless, his aides maintain that the gun-ban answer was a mistake and didn't reflect Obama's true position.
Whatever his position may have been in 1996, in 2003 he submitted another survey form to the same group avoiding a yes-or-no answer to the gun ban question and stating a position similar to his current stance. According to the Chicago Sun-Times, Obama's answer read:
Obama, 2003: While a complete ban on handguns is not politically practicable, I believe reasonable restrictions on the sale and possession of handguns are necessary to protect the public safety. In the Illinois Senate last year, I supported a package of bills to limit individual Illinoisans to purchasing one handgun a month; require all promoters and sellers at firearms shows to carry a state license; allow civil liability for death or injuries caused by handguns; and require FOID applicants to apply in person. I would support similar efforts at the federal level, including retaining the Brady Law."
In February 2008, the Associated Press reported that Obama said, "[T]here are people who say, 'Well, he doesn't believe in the Second Amendment,' even though I come from a state – we've got a lot of hunters in downstate Illinois. And I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." Even more recently, on April 16 at a Democratic debate in Philadelphia, Obama said,"I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns."
The NRA Response
The NRA responded to this article on its Web site, claiming that we are not impartial or independent and are linked to the Brady Campaign. We think the facts show otherwise.
The NRA argues that both FactCheck.org and the Brady Campaign have received funds from the Annenberg Foundation, and concludes that we're both "in bed with" the foundation and therefore we are biased.
It was actually news to us that the Annenberg Foundation has given to Brady. We had to look it up. Here's what else we discovered: The Annenberg Foundation also has given $14.6 million to the conservative Hoover Institution, $12.3 million to the Reagan library and $3.1 million to the George H.W. Bush library. That's a pretty crowded bed.
The truth is, the Annenberg Foundation has never advised us on what to say about gun control or any other issue.
The NRA's claim that we are biased also ignores the fact that we have been as critical of gun-control advocates when they stray from the facts as we are of the NRA's falsehoods. See, for example, "A False Ad About Assault Weapons."NRA Claim: "Mandate a Government-Issued License to Purchase a Firearm"
Misleading: Obama indeed has spoken in favor of licensing handguns, but so far as we can determine he hasn't called for registration of hunting weapons. And he's said a national gun registration law isn't politically possible: "I just don't think we can get that done."
Obama's Web site quotes what he said in a 2001 Chicago Defender article: "I know that the NRA believes people should be unimpeded and unregulated on gun ownership. I disagree. I do not object to the lawful use and ownership of firearms, but I do think it is entirely it appropriate for the state to monitor it. ... Too many of these guns end up in the hands of criminals even though they were originally purchased by people who did not have a felony. I'll continue to be in favor of handgun law registration requirements and licensing requirements for training."
During a Democratic debate in January, Obama said he didn't think such a national law was possible, and called instead for "common-sense enforcement" to trace guns used in crimes.
NBC's Tim Russert, Jan. 15: Senator Obama, when you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners.
Would you do that as president?
Obama: I don't think that we can get that done. But what I do think we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. One good example -- this is consistently blocked -- the efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers. That's not something that the NRA has allowed to get through Congress. And, as president, I intend to make it happen.
But here's the broader context that I think is important for us to remember. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership, that all of us saw, as we travel around rural parts of the country.
And it is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot.
And then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago.
We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets.
The NRA's flier isn't entirely false. It states Obama's positions on concealed weapons and on semi-automatic "assault weapons" reasonably accurately.
NRA Claim: "Pass Federal Laws Eliminating Your Right-to-Carry"
True: In 2004, while running for the Democratic nomination for the Senate seat he now holds, Obama indeed called for "national legislation" to prevent anyone but law enforcers from carrying concealed firearms. The Chicago Tribune, which queried the candidates on several issues, reported:
Chicago Tribune (Feb. 20 2004): Obama ... backed federal legislation that would ban citizens from carrying weapons, except for law enforcement. He cited Texas as an example of a place where a law allowing people to carry weapons has "malfunctioned" because hundreds of people granted licenses had prior convictions.
"National legislation will prevent other states' flawed concealed-weapons laws from threatening the safety of Illinois residents," Obama said.
More recently, Obama was quoted by the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review in an article on April 2, 2008, saying "I am not in favor of concealed weapons. ... I think that creates a potential atmosphere where more innocent people could (get shot during) altercations."
NRA Claim: "Expand the Clinton Semi-Auto Weapons Ban to Include Millions More Firearms"
Partly true: The NRA refers here to the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, which was put in place during former President Bill Clinton's administration. Title XI of the legislation spoke directly to regulations on assault weapons. The law outlawed the semi-automatic versions of 19 kinds of military-style assault weapons, but it expired in 2004. The "assault weapon ban" was always a misnomer, however. Fully automatic weapons – like the military assault rifle carried on battlefields – had always been illegal to own without a very hard-to-obtain federal license, under legislation going back to the days of Al Capone. They remain so today.
Nevertheless, Obama called the ban a "common sense gun law" and favors bringing it back on a permanent basis. Obama's "Urban Policy" fact sheet says he "supports making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent, as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets."
As recently as Aug. 28, when accepting his party's nomination at the Democratic National Convention, Obama said, "The reality of gun ownership may be different for hunters in rural Ohio than for those plagued by gang-violence in Cleveland, but don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals."
Obama's policy statement doesn't mention any expansion of the expired ban, however. We're not sure where the NRA gets its claim that "millions" of additional weapons would be covered.
NRA Claim: "Appoint Judges to the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal Judiciary Who Share His Views on the Second Amendment"
Unsupported: The NRA's fact sheet points out that Obama has voted against the two newest members of the U.S. Supreme Court. Obama voted against the confirmations of Chief Justice John Roberts in 2005 and Justice Samuel Alito in 2006. They happen to be two of the five justices that voted in favor of the Court's decision to overturn the District of Columbia's longstanding handgun ban this year. The New York Times has reported that Obama "favored Democratic filibusters to block many Republican nominees deemed too conservative." But the NRA can point to no statement by Obama calling for a Second-Amendment test for his judicial appointees, and we could find none.
What Obama has actually said about selecting judges is that "[w]e need somebody who's got the heart, the empathy, to recognize what it's like to be a young teenage mom. The empathy to understand what it's like to be poor, or African-American, or gay, or disabled, or old. And that's the criteria by which I'm going to be selecting my judges."
In any case, Obama says he believes the Second Amendment "creates an individual right" to bear arms. That's at odds with some strong gun-control advocates who had argued that the Second Amendment limited the right to bear arms to a "well-regulated militia." The Supreme Court rejected that view in its June ruling overturning the D.C. gun ban. But Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia wrote, "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose." Chief Justice John Roberts joined that opinion. To the dismay of gun-control advocates, Obama did not criticize the ruling. Instead, he said it "will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country."
NRA Claim: "Increase Federal Taxes on Guns and Ammunition by 500 Percent"
Uncertain: This claim is based on an article that appeared in the Chicago Defender on Dec. 13, 1999, when Obama was in the Illinois state Senate. According to the Defender, at an anti-gun rally, Obama "outlined his anti-gun plan," which, among other things, sought to "increase the federal taxes by 500 percent on the sale of firearm, ammunition [sic] -- weapons he says are most commonly used in firearm deaths." As a U.S. senator, however, Obama has not pushed for any such tax on ammunition.
We asked the Obama campaign about his position on an ammunition tax but have received no response.
NRA Claim: "Close Down 90 Percent of Gun Shops in America"
Uncertain: This claim also is based on the1999 Defender article. It reported Obama was pushing "all federally licensed gun dealers sell firearms in a storefront and not from their homes while banning their business from being within five miles of a school or a park." The NRA states that the 5-mile limit would have resulted in the closing of 90 percent of gun shops in the country. But as a U.S. senator Obama hasn't pushed for a 5-mile limit and isn't proposing one as part of his presidential campaign.
We asked the Obama campaign about his current position on imposing a five-mile limit on gun shops but have received no response.
NRA Claim: "Restore Voting Rights for Five Million Criminals Including Those Who Have been Convicted of Using a Gun to Commit a Violent Crime"
Mostly true: We could find no NRA citation to back up this statement. We note, however, that Obama was a cosponsor of the Count Every Vote Act of 2007. The section of the legislation, "Sec. 701. Voting Rights of Individuals Convicted of Criminal Offenses," states that the purpose of Title VII of the legislation was "to restore fairness in the Federal election process by ensuring that ex-offenders who have fully served their sentences are not denied the right to vote." There has been no action on the bill since March 2007 when it was referred to the Senate Committee on Rules and Administration.
Currently, the Sentencing Project estimates that 5.3 million Americans are denied the right to vote because of state laws denying the right to people with felony convictions. It further estimates that this bars 13 percent of African-American men from voting. Most of those ex-offenders were not, however, convicted of gun violence. "There is absolutely no way of getting to that," said Marc Mauer, executive director of the Sentencing Project. "All we can say is that the majority of felony charges are not for violent crimes and guns."
Obama "The Most Anti-Gun President"?
In another mailer making similar claims about Obama, the NRA says, "Obama would be the most anti-gun president in American history," which is a pretty tall statement. We don't know how George Washington, John Adams or Thomas Jefferson might have felt about armor-piercing ammunition or assault weapons. We can, however, quote what Obama has said about the Constitutional right to bear arms most recently, after the Supreme Court swept away the D.C. handgun ban. He issued a statement calling for striking a balance between gun rights and public safety:
Obama (June 26): I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, but I also identify with the need for crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that plagues our streets through common-sense, effective safety measures. The Supreme Court has now endorsed that view, and while it ruled that the D.C. gun ban went too far, Justice Scalia himself acknowledged that this right is not absolute and subject to reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe. Today's ruling, the first clear statement on this issue in 127 years, will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country.
As President, I will uphold the constitutional rights of law-abiding gun-owners, hunters, and sportsmen. I know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. We can work together to enact common-sense laws, like closing the gun show loophole and improving our background check system, so that guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Today's decision reinforces that if we act responsibly, we can both protect the constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe.
Will He or Won't He?
At a campaign stop in Duryea, Pa., in early September, Obama again attempted to reassure gun owners that he doesn't intend to take away their guns, and couldn't even if he wanted to:
Obama (Sept. 5): The bottom line is this. If you've got a rifle, you've got a shotgun, you've got a gun in your house, I'm not taking it away. Alright? So they can keep on talking about it but this is just not true. And by the way, here's another thing you've got to understand. Even if I wanted to take it away, I couldn't get it done. I don't have the votes in Congress.
Clarification: This story originally included a reference to "assault weapons – like those carried on battlefields." A retired military arms instructor wrote to say that the proper term for the battlefield weapon is "assault rifle." Congress included certain types of both rifles and shotguns under its now-expired ban on "assault weapons."
– by D'Angelo Gore and Brooks Jackson
Sources
Chase, John. "Keyes, Obama are far apart on guns; Views on assault weapons at odds." Chicago Tribune, 15 Sept. 2004.
Wereschagin, Mike and David M. Brown. "Candidates' gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote." Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 2 April 2008.
U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 1st Session, Vote No. 217 S. Amdt. 1615 to S. 397
Illinois 93rd General Assembly. Senate Bill No. 2165, 25 March 2004.
Tozzi, Lisa. "Candidates React to Supreme Court's Gun Ruling." The Caucus Blog, New York Times, 26 June 2008.
Obama-Biden Campaign. Urban Policy. www.barackobama.com, accessed 16 Sept. 2008.
Obama-Biden Campaign. BARACK OBAMA: SUPPORTING THE RIGHTS
AND TRADITIONS OF SPORTSMEN. www.barackobama.com, accessed 16 Sept. 2008.
Dann, Carrie. OBAMA ON JUDGES, SUPREME COURT. MSNBC First Read, 17 July 2007.
Moore, Solomon. "Former felons can often vote, but may not be aware of it." New York Times, 14 Sept. 2008.
Mendell, David. "Democratic hopefuls vary a bit on death penalty." Chicago Tribune, 20 Feb. 2008.
S. 804: Count Every Vote Act of 2007. Introduced March 7, 2007.
Pickle, Nedra. "Obama mentions God and guns in Idaho." Associated Press, boston.com. 2 Feb. 2008.
Black, Lisa and M. Daniel Gibbard. "Wilmette man shoots intruder in his home." Chicago Tribune, 31 Dec. 2003.
Copyright © 2003 - 2008, Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania
FactCheck.org's staff, not the Annenberg Center, is responsible for this material.
This is really all moot y'know. Just because some gomer says I can't have a gun don't mean I WON"T keep mine. What kind of idiot takes em and turns em in just cause somebody says to anyway?
Obama is a liar. His record speaks volumes about his ethics and integrity. Why would we trust him to protect
our constitutional rights when he repeatedly has voted to eliminate the second amendment and lately has
tried to eliminate our first amendment rights by silencing people through the power of government.
Plus to try and ban any weapon is a attack on our constitutional rights period. What is a assault weapon according to
obama. Its any weapon that is semi automatic. That includes hunting rifles like a 30.06 down to a .22 rifle.
It doesn't matter if he tries to ban any of them cause i ain't giving up any weapon i have. Period. About the only
thing that it will do is increase sales of unregistered handguns that we can use as disposable guns if we have to use them
to defend ourselves. Guess were going to have to do the three S's shoot em shovelem and shut up, then toss the gun when we have to kill criminals then go buy a black market gun to replace it.
I can't believe people would be stupid enough to turn in a gun. LOL
Quote from: pam on October 05, 2008, 10:06:18 AM
This is really all moot y'know. Just because some gomer says I can't have a gun don't mean I WON"T keep mine. What kind of idiot takes em and turns em in just cause somebody says to anyway?
I am right there with you, Pam...I would bury mine in the pasture, wrapped in plastic, before I would ever allow my arms to be stripped from me.
I have always said they will get my gun when they pry my dead fingers off of it and not until then.
So nobody has read the post?
yes.. I read it.
And excuse my language.. But it is pure bullshit...
and besides.. I already posted all of this drivel in an earlier post..and Warph responded with the actual facts.. NOT a pack of more lies from the Obama campaign..so I guess it is YOU who didn't read it. My god.. if he said all of a sudden.. "No you all misunderstood me.. I am white" .. I think the adoring praise Obama followers would fall to thier knees and swear that he was white.
Give me a break!
The man's record is on paper and recorded for Cripes sake..
I added more to this ..and deleted it..
It wasn't lady like and definetely lacked class..............But this literally pissed me straight off..( something that I am sure tickled SDM funny bone)
Frankly usually I can consider the source.. and I did this time too,... but when you don't have any idea what you are talking about.. and it is obvious that you don't.. then maybe you might want to go into the NRA site and look at the actual documents.. Pull up the congressional senate and check your pretty boys gun stance record..
This area of the gun world IS my world.. we stay in contact with John Sigler and Wayne LaPierre ( pres & V.pres) and all the others working their tails off for the 2nd amendment in Washington..
The man will say and do anything ..even when he is caught red handed on tape saying it.
But if you want to believe it.. you just knock yourself out and believe any of that crap that they want to feed you.
I don't claim to believe all the political ploys the Republicans put out.. No body can be THAT much of a follower and sheep to think that their party doesn't twist and turn stuff to suit their agenda.. but on this subject??
This information is dead wrong and Obama is a pathological liar. And yes I am ticked off about this kind of stuff.. and yes I will get over it.
I usually try to keep my sanity and not get myself in the state that Teresa is right now. We both believe in this cause so strongly that to have to hear such distortions of the truth upsets anyone who values their freedoms.
(of course, when she gets like this, she DOES get a lot of outside work done. cleaning out flower beds and grabbing those weeds like a woman with a cause) Glad she isn't armed right now. ;)
Seriously, Obamas record on ownership of guns is all documented. Those who really care about the truth will do their homework. It is all there in black and white. He might even be saying something different now since it is coming back to bite him and possibly costing him votes, but he doesn't get the title of being the most liberal left candidate in our history, for being on the side of gun ownership. That is something that no matter what comes out of his mouth, it just isn't so.
If you take the time to actually look at all the information on this, you will more than be satisfied that Obama is lying when it comes to him being on the same side as the people when it comes to firearms ownership, and the right to conceal and carry. No matter how loud the liberal media screams, it just isn't true and they know it.
I could give you huge stacks of documents and binders full of information, but for most it is too overwhelming and most do not have the time or interest it would take to read it all, and some actually think it will not happen to us here in the U.S. or they just don't worry about it too much. Even if you do not own a firearm at this time, this agenda still does concern you.
If no law abiding citizen has a gun, who might you call on if in the event you need help?
I lived in a European country for my first 46 years of my life that had limits and socialist agendas where firearms are concerned. I worked for the gun legislature on the side of the law "for the people", and I know what it looks like from the inside. It is not a way of life that I would ever want to live again.
I do not think that anyone in this country would like it ~ even those of you who say that you will not conform to the law.And there are plenty of us out there, but with that statement comes having to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. Those that do not conform, are arrested and your guns are confiscated by force or ..........there is a revolution and uprising of the people.
But when the uprising comes about it is usually after the majority of the people, who were sheep and followed blindly, have disarmed themselves. The people have to stick together before that happens.
That is why this election year is so critical. Freedoms are the most precious thing you can have. Once they are gone, it will be too late to cry, wring your hands and wonder what went wrong, and to say you are sorry.
Kjell
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The OBAMA NIGHTMARE
"I believe the DC gun ban is Constitutional, and will not be overturned."
--Barack Obama, Constitutional Scholar, 2/2/2008
"I agree with the Supreme Court decision that guns are an individual right." --Barack Obama, Political Pragmatist, 6/30/2008
"This is less of a flip flop and more of an outright contradiction. Why? 70% of independent voters are pro-gun, and without them, Obama can't win. He added a quick "we still have a right to create gun laws" at the end of this statement, to appease the Left. But unlike nearly every other Senator, he did not file in support of the 2nd Amendment." --Kitty Pilgrim, CNN
Obama intends to set gun rights back 50 years. His National No Carry Initiative is intended to end the progress made for 10 years on CCW rights. His "gun a month" limits is quietly intended to shut down the industry.
http://www.morebans.org/onegunlaws.html
(The government can't track 35 million illegals, but they can track the purchases of 85 million gun owners?).
He intends to eliminate all gun show sales (McCain would impose background checks there, which would virtually eliminate non dealers from shows, not good, but not as bad as OBAMA).
OBAMA launched from the worst gun State in America (Hawaii), and landed in the most totalitarian, anti-gun County in the U.S. (Cook County and the radical anti-gun Chicago crowd).
He is going to solve the economy, solve the war, institute gay and lesbian marriage, and allow State sponsored abortion. In addition to sounding like Jesus Christ (have you ever seen a bigger ego?), his megalomaniac claims border on solipsism.
He sounds "reasonable", but is a closet big government, heavy regulation, big tax, FAR LEFT ULTRA LIBERAL when it comes to guns, make NO MISTAKES!
He claims that he will "re-institute the assault ban" (which means bayo lugs and collapsible stocks), mouthing the Liberal Left mantra that has NO understanding of either the idiocy of the previous ban or the difference between Country and City on gun use.
If 85 million gun owners do not arise to SOUNDLY DEFEAT this chameleon, we're in for 4 years of 2nd Amendment Hell, and with his Supreme Court appointees, the possibility of turning into a hedonistic Left Socialist State with no fear of God and heavy government controls.
His comment about "frightened conservatives clinging to God and guns" says it all!
He has no real respect for religion, and is a heavy tax, destroy business, far left throwback to a long gone age of heavy-regulation.
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
Dear Obama, if you have ANY sense at all . . .
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about
20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
------------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million
Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of
13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded
up and exterminated.
------------------------------
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
------------------------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan
Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million
educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
-----------------------------
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because
of gun control: 56 million.
------------------------------
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new
law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own
government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million
dollars. The first year results are now in:
List of 7 items: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent Australia-wide, armed robberies
are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300
percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!
While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed
robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12
months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.
There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the
ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety
has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in
successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience
and the other historical facts above prove it.
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians
disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes,
gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Americans need to take note , before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of
this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens'.
Without them, we are 'subjects'.
In RECENTLY RELEASED documents, an astonishing fact has come to light:
During WWII the Japanese had a DISTINCT and URGENT plan to bomb and invade the U.S., and decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
TERRORISTS, and Senator Obama: TAKE NOTE!
So---Factcheck.org is a function of the Obama campaign unless it agrees with your thinking? I would hate to think that my every waking thought was controlled by an organization that is driven by one goal only. This country is made up by many factions and many ideas. Senator Obama supports the second ammendment but also supports the right for communities to practise some gun control. Many public buildings also support gun control, do you not go into them? Do you check your gun at the door of the school? :( :(
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 05, 2008, 12:57:21 PM
So nobody has read the post?
Yeah i read it and i also read obamas voting record on guns. He always votes to remove our second amendment rights through gun bans, and ammo bans. His lie that he isn't after hunting rifles is just that a lie since MOST hunting rifles fall under his definition of a assault weapon.
Secondly he has no right whatsoever to ban any gun. The second amendment prevents that and his attempt at getting them banned is nothing but criminal if he tries to circumvent the constitution.
Quote from: Teresa on October 05, 2008, 02:29:39 PM
yes.. I read it.
And excuse my language.. But it is pure bullshit...
Thank you i was trying to be nice :D LOL.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 05, 2008, 05:24:38 PM
So---Factcheck.org is a function of the Obama campaign unless it agrees with your thinking? I would hate to think that my every waking thought was controlled by an organization that is driven by one goal only. This country is made up by many factions and many ideas. Senator Obama supports the second ammendment but also supports the right for communities to practise some gun control. Many public buildings also support gun control, do you not go into them? Do you check your gun at the door of the school? :( :(
They can't stop what they can't see you know.
For the Love of God --- don't you lefties EVER see anything except what the other Lefties write ---- Why, in the world can't you see..hear..and know that it is NOT SO that he is going to be your salvation???? I am not saying that the Republicans have all the answers, but I do know this --- McCain and Palin are NOT backed by all the communistic backers ----AND we do know where they come from...Where does the big bucks come from for this guy that never had any money -- yet used the high dollar drugs -- went to the high dollar schools - took the high dollar 'round the world trips - bought a million + dollar home and only had one teeny tiny job - then emerged as a full blown know it all Senator?
Damn --- I just get so frustrated to think that you won't even try to look beyond "the Bush Years" George Bush is not writing the script for the next Republican president!!! AND -- if you don't already realize it-----HE IS NOT A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE !!!
Thank God Bush isn't! That in itself would be cruel and unusual punishment for our nation! If I had to listen to 4 more years of him blundering through the English language, I'd scream! LOL!!!
We "Lefties" aren't really as narrow-minded as our Conservative counterparts. I read many items from both sides and can see beyond my own beliefs, unlike others. Notice I said my own beliefs, they are mine to have; just as yours are yours to have. So please respect that!
As far as trying to see past what the republicans have done so far and not using it as a predictor of the futue, that is pretty much impossible. The Repulicans write the script for their party, as does the Democrats for theirs. So change from this Presidency to a McCain Presidency more than likely will be more of the same. And if that is what you want, more power to you. That is your perrogative, and I respect that.
I love your profile picture, little girl.
Hugs
Love you Jo! Tell Fred I need a new magic penny, I lost my old one and with two onery boys I am in desperate need of some magic! LOL :P
I don't think that POTUS can change the constitution; o/w Roe v Wade should have been overturned many years ago as every republican president has run under that banner since its' inception.
Kjell, should you need some more action out of Teresa, just let me know. I got more!! ;D ;D
Small fee of course! ;D
I read it SDM My position is no matter WHO if ANYBODY says ok y'all I want you to turn your guns in today, they can kiss my rosy red butt!!! cause I'm keepin mine period.
We're all gonna need em to feed ourselves before long anyway :P
Ain't it the truth! I'm gonna stop turning on the tv when I get up in the morning! The news this morning is certainly not rosy. Now, about guns; I am certainly not for the banning of guns, I have guns of my own. But I want to tell you when you live in an area where folks shoot indiscriminately, you think a little bit before you go out on your porch. Particularly at night. I used to live in Wichita, in a working class neighborhood that was a short distance away from a main traffic artery. You could go outside at night and hear the gunshots. We even dug slugs out of the front wall of our house! You CANNOT resolve that situation by shooting back, where and whom do you shoot except maybe your neighbors or some passerby. These people do not need to have guns, period! If it takes formal training to own a gun or some sort of responsible action then I am for that. Wyatt Earp did not tame Wichita by being the fastest gun in the west, he did it with gun control. All the wild and wooly cowboys were required to turn in their guns when they came to town. I know this is a highly pro gun area and I respect that, but don't put down the candidate because of a bogus charge of 'He's gonna take your gun!"
Gina, I will tell Fred --- he will provide you with another, but you two will have to get together so he can put all the magic in it for you. If he lives to be ~~~~how ever old ~ he will never forget the wonder in your little eyes when the magic penny appeared.
Jo
SDM, when my boys were small my then husband moved us into Plainview and then Oaklawn. I didn't have a gun then so I carried a giant buck knife, there is no truer statement in the world than If you outlaw guns only outlaws will HAVE guns. I really don't understand why people think outlawin guns will solve the problem of crime, I mean seriously.
I didn't put Obama down for that.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 05, 2008, 07:58:38 PM
I don't think that POTUS can change the constitution; o/w Roe v Wade should have been overturned many years ago as every republican president has run under that banner since its' inception.
Kjell, should you need some more action out of Teresa, just let me know. I got more!! ;D ;D
Small fee of course! ;D
Uhhh RvW isn't constitutional. there was no constitutional amendment to pass that. It was legislated from the judicial bench when the courts usurped the legislatures powers.
It wasn't legislating from the bench, but rather a finding a TX law unconstitutional under the due process clause of the 14th amendment which is as follows:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 06, 2008, 09:07:31 AM
I know this is a highly pro gun area and I respect that, but don't put down the candidate because of a bogus charge of 'He's gonna take your gun!"
BOGUS??
My god.. I can not believe you are that misinformed .. Apparently you like where your head is stuck.. because only a person who REFUSES to acknowledge the documented facts can stand there and spout that kind of blind talk. Congratulations..you have now moved into the realm of National Socialism. And it is apparent you will welcome it with open arms.
The suppression of free speech using intimidation and the threat of legal consequences has begun. Next, disagreeing with Obama or any democrat will be deemed a thought crime. Threatening with action through governmental agencies. Loss of a license to do business by an action of an agency if you step on our toes. Reminds me of the bullies in school that never did their own dirty work. They were followed around by a bunch of goons that were their real muscle. Amazing.... Shameful..... An astounding partisan abuse of prosecutoral power. Those involved should resign, if for no other reason than these fascist tactics are an insult to everyone who ever sacrificed to make and keep this country free.
I have said this in other posts...Having read most of the list of votes, speeches and organizations from Obama that were used to make up the list of charges from the NRA, I don't know how the Obama camp can call it a lie with a straight face. Do they not realize that every vote he has made is public record, and since long before he decided to dabble in politics they have been recording speeches?
Change = Destroying your 2nd Amendment rights through suppression of your 1st Amendment rights...
Just a little preview of the Fairness Doctrine if B-HO gets elected.
Check this out.. ( but you probably won't read it or admit any of it.. .. as it has way too many issues that your sheepherder has to answer to his loyal bleating followers.) We can't have him be accountable ..now can we?
You are a card to draw too..I'll give you that much. ::)
An interesting read in troubling times: This is one of the MANY of Obama being against our 2nd amendment rights.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/obama-and-the-attempt-to-destroy-the-second-amendment/QuoteThe plan's objective was bold: the judicial obliteration of the Second Amendment.
Joyce's directors found a vulnerable point. When judges cannot rely upon past decisions, they sometimes turn to law review articles. Law reviews are impartial, and famed for meticulous cite-checking. They are also produced on a shoestring. Authors of articles receive no compensation; editors are law students who work for a tiny stipend.
In 1999, midway through Obama's tenure, the Joyce board voted to grant the Chicago-Kent Law Review $84,000, a staggering sum by law review standards. The Review promptly published an issue in which all articles attacked the individual right view of the Second Amendment.
In a breach of law review custom, Chicago-Kent let an "outsider" serve as editor; he was Carl Bogus, a faculty member of a different law school. Bogus had a unique distinction: he had been a director of Handgun Control Inc. (today's Brady Campaign), and was on the advisory board of the Joyce-funded Violence Policy Center.
Bogus solicited only articles hostile to the individual right view of the Second Amendment, offering authors $5,000 each.
Another good read on the subject:http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MmM2NjY3ZWEyNjE4MTMwMDlmNTA5NzE2M2Y2NDQ4ZTM=Quote
Obama was named a director of the Joyce Foundation in late 1994, and remained in that position until late 2002.
During Obama's tenure with the Joyce Foundation, donations to anti-gun groups increased dramatically. For example, in 1997 and 1998 the Violence Policy Center received $221,000 and $360,000 from the Foundation; those grants and donations increased to $1 million in 2000 and $800,000 in 2002. In all, during Obama's tenure, the group received $15 million from the Joyce Foundation.
Lest anyone think I'm mischaracterizing their objective analysis, note that their web site touts themselves as "the most aggressive group in the gun control movement." Also note studies like their one from 2000 entitled, "Unsafe in Any Hands: Why America Needs to Ban Handguns," which declared the idea that the Constitution would forbid a national handgun ban a "pure myth." Also note the organization's subtly-titled book, Every Handgun is Aimed at You: The Case for Banning Handguns.
I'm not even mad this time.. I know I am wasting my breath... I just pity you who refuse to acknowledge that Obama's character.. lack of any kind of political record..and his corrupt background has any bearing on him leading this country FOR the good of the people.
( If a republican had this kind of corrupt and anti American past.. they would have been run out on a rail with tar and feathers by now.. Just frickin' amazing................. ::)).....
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 06, 2008, 09:07:31 AM
Ain't it the truth! I'm gonna stop turning on the tv when I get up in the morning! The news this morning is certainly not rosy. Now, about guns; I am certainly not for the banning of guns, I have guns of my own. But I want to tell you when you live in an area where folks shoot indiscriminately, you think a little bit before you go out on your porch. Particularly at night. I used to live in Wichita, in a working class neighborhood that was a short distance away from a main traffic artery. You could go outside at night and hear the gunshots. We even dug slugs out of the front wall of our house! You CANNOT resolve that situation by shooting back, where and whom do you shoot except maybe your neighbors or some passerby. These people do not need to have guns, period! If it takes formal training to own a gun or some sort of responsible action then I am for that. Wyatt Earp did not tame Wichita by being the fastest gun in the west, he did it with gun control. All the wild and wooly cowboys were required to turn in their guns when they came to town. I know this is a highly pro gun area and I respect that, but don't put down the candidate because of a bogus charge of 'He's gonna take your gun!"
First, Wyatt Earp was simply a regular police officer (deputy) in Wichita enforcing the laws (city ordinances). He did some police work in between his gambling habits ;). His role as a "town tamer" is highly exaggerated. Btw, he was also a republican... at least in his Arizona years. ;D
Now, let's get back to the part where Obama supporters choose to be blindfolded. Obama has a voting record showing he has done what he can to support his own anti gun agenda:
QuoteFACT: Barack Obama opposes four of the five Supreme Court justices who affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms. He voted against the confirmation of Alito and Roberts and he has stated he would not have appointed Thomas or Scalia.17
FACT: Barack Obama voted for an Illinois State Senate bill to ban and confiscate "assault weapons," but the bill was so poorly crafted, it would have also banned most semi-auto and single and double barrel shotguns commonly used by sportsmen.18
FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry.1
FACT: Barack Obama wants to re-impose the failed and discredited Clinton Gun Ban.15
FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.3
FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9
FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership.2
FACT: Barack Obama supports local gun bans in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities.4
FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people
who use firearms in self-defense.5
FACT: Barack Obama supports gun owner licensing and gun registration.6
FACT: Barack Obama refused to sign a friend-of-the-court Brief in support of individual Second Amendment rights in the Heller case.
FACT: Barack Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.7
FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and "research."8
FACT: Barack Obama supported a proposal to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a school or park, which would eliminate almost every gun store in America.9
FACT: Barack Obama voted not to notify gun owners when the state of Illinois did records searches on them.10
FACT: Barack Obama voted against a measure to lower the Firearms Owners Identification card age minimum from 21 to 18, a measure designed to assist young people in the military.11
FACT: Barack Obama favors a ban on standard capacity magazines.12
FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory micro-stamping.13
FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods.2
FACT: Barack Obama supports repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits information on gun traces collected by the BATFE from being used in reckless lawsuits against firearm dealers and manufacturers.14
FACT: Barack Obama supports one-gun-a-month handgun purchase restrictions.16
FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on inexpensive handguns.9
FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on the resale of police issued firearms, even if the money is going to police departments for replacement equipment.9
FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory firearm training requirements for all gun owners and a ban on gun ownership for persons under the age of 21.9
1. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 219, July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00219)
2. Independent Voters of Illinois/Independent Precinct Organization general candidate questionnaire, Sept. 9, 1996. The responses on this survey were described in "Obama had greater role on liberal survey," Politico, March 31, 2008. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9269.html)
3. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 217, Kennedy amendment July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00217)
4. David Wright, Ursula Fahy and Sunlen Miller, "Obama: 'Common Sense Regulation' On Gun Owners' Rights," ABC News' "Political Radar" Blog, http://blogs.abcnews.com, 2/15/08. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/02/obama-common-se.html)
5. Illinois Senate, SB 2165, March 25, 2004, vote 20 and May 25, 2004, vote 3.
6. "Fact Check: No News In Obama's Consistent Record." Obama '08, December 11, 2007. (http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/12/11/fact_check_no_news_in_obamas_c.php)
7. "Candidates' gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote," Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Wednesday, April 2, 2008, and "Keyes, Obama Are Far Apart On Guns," Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04. (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_560181.html)
8. 1998 Joyce Foundation Annual Report, p. 7.
9. "Obama and Gun Control," The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.com/posts/1203389334.shtml)
10. Illinois Senate, May 5, 2002, SB 1936 Con., vote 26.
11. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2003, SB 2163, vote 18.
12. "Clinton, Edwards, Obama on gun control," Radio Iowa, Sunday, April 22, 2007. (http://learfield.typepad.com/radioiowa/2007/04/clinton_edwards.html)
13. Chicago Tribune blogs, "Barack Obama: NIU Shootings call for action," February 15, 2008, (http://blogs.trb.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/barack_obama_comments_on_shoot.html)
14. Barack Obama campaign website: "As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment . . ." (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/urbanpolicy/#crime-and-law-enforcement.)
15. Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes (http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm and http://www.ontheissues.org/IL_2004_Senate_3rd.htm) Oct 21, 2004.
16. Illinois Senate, May 16, 2003, HB 2579, vote 34.
17. United States Senate vote 245, September 29, 2005 and vote 2, January 31, 2006 and Saddleback Forum, August 16, 2008.
18. Illinois Senate Judiciary Committee, March 13, 2003. To see the vote tally go to: http://www.nrapvf.org/Media/pdf/sb1195_obama.pdf
Now, we can all agree on the obvious: we all want to take the guns out of the hands of the criminals. What is also obvious is that the +20,000 federal, state and local gun laws and regulations already on the books have not solved that problem. We can add a couple of thousand more "common sense" gun laws as well, just to make some politicians proud of their legislative achievements.
Obama's voting record shows me he just don't get it.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 06, 2008, 09:07:31 AM
I know this is a highly pro gun area and I respect that, but don't put down the candidate because of a bogus charge of 'He's gonna take your gun!"
Quote from: Teresa on October 06, 2008, 09:44:50 PM
BOGUS??
My god.. I can not believe you are that misinformed .. Apparently you like where your head is stuck.. because only a person who REFUSES to acknowledge the documented facts can stand there and spout that kind of blind talk. Congratulations..you have now moved into the realm of National Socialism. And it is apparent you will welcome it with open arms.
aaaaaaaaaaahhhha..... so that's where her head is at. I thought Obuma has been walking a little strange lately. Believe me, she's that misinformed.... and quite frankly, now that they are attached to one another, I would say that they deserve each other. It's hard to argue with a true socialist, Teresa.
BTW, Kjell..... AMEN on your reply to this thread. As we used to say in Nam, "Dead on, Fred"
Why do people still think outlawin somthin makes it go away? I mean it's worked so well for drugs, and prohibition really changed things for the better :P
SDM there really are some things about Obama that nobody can ignore. But the same goes for McCain, so here I go chasin my tail again..........I'm startin to get dizzy AND pissed.