I really don't know where to put this.( maybe I should ask the "King") .. :P NOT! :D
But since gun control issues are posted here.. I thought it might be the best place.
On one of the 2nd amendments and gun forums I frequent there is a thread going about Utah banning toy guns.
I thought I would share this with you. ..as it reminded me of a few things.
When Marshal and I was in Missouri last week, we were just poking around in a an old five and dime store, there was a small boy about 6 years old.. he wanted a cap gun that used the roll caps. His mother( who was about 30) vehemently said NO.. he was NOT having any kind of gun..and she walked around the corner.. Well his grandma was standing there and she and I locked eyes..and I kinda sadly shook my head and sighed..and I walked by the little boy ( who was holding this gun and looking at it) and kinda ruffled his hair and smiled at him.. and then looked back at his grandma..
I moved down the aisle and was looking at some things and she said.. " you can have the gun. " her daughter came around the corner and said,"No Mother.. he CAN NOT have the gun". I will not have any kind of gun in my house. "
The grandma looked at her and said.. "He can have the gun and play with it at my house and leave it at my house".
The little boy smiled so big at his grandma and his mom with that look of "can I for real have this?" look.
The young mother looked at her mother and said" well he has to keep it at your house"..
After the mother walked away.. I touched the grandma on the shoulder and said" good for you".
She just smiled at me..
I bet that little boy will have the time of his life playing with his cap gun at his grandmas...
A few weeks ago we were out camping and Ashley my 6 yr old granddaughter was playing with her gun and the million of those &*%^$#@ caps..( you know the kind) that you have to wind inside. She had shot everything in sight and looked up at me and said,
" Mee Maw? Don't you just love the smell of gun powder?"
;D I just burst out laughing and said ' I sure do honey".. hahahaha
That was so cute..and I guess the cap gun smell was gun powder to her.. LOL
Mason. my 17 month old grandson was at my house the other day and our loading blocks were on the table and he saw them and so I gave him one with a few bullets and he had a great time 'loading and unloading " them. LOL
Gotta start them young...................... ;)
The only restriction we had as kids with cap guns was to never, ever aim them at any living thing, ever. Same with any "gun like" toy, even our space ray guns.
Do you know, I don't think they can even have water guns at school any more. When I was teaching, I had to take water guns that were given away as birthday handouts. But you might check and see.
Teresa, I have raised 6 kids. All of which had guns around them from birth. I never had to lock my guns, never had to hide them. THe reason? When they were babies, around 9 mo old, i would load one up in a backpack on my back and go huntin. I hunted with my kids. I would load up the baby josh, and john and holly would walk with me. We would go out and shoot a mule deer and all of us would drag it back to the house.
The kids were 3, 18 mo, and 9 mo. :) John would pull holly in the sled, and i would carry josh on my back. When we got a deer, we would load it on the sled and daddy would put john and holly on top of the deer and pull them all back.
As i got more kids, we all went hunting usually. Sometimes some of the kids wanted to stay in.
But all of them learned early on that a gun is a tool that kills. It doesn't matter what it kills, just that it kills.
Now they all got to handle a gun as small children. When they were 3 years old we would sit on the porch and i would load up the 22 and let them fire it. THey learned by age 7 how to hit the targets accurately and today i have two marines, and one soldier that are marksmen. :) They were marksmen before they went into the service.
My adopted daughter can shoot anything. She never misses at any range up to 600 yards. My adopted son could drop a deer at 300 yards in a dead run. My younest son is just as good but he's like me. I don't like to kill anything unless i have to. That includes deer :D Only for meat.
The reason i never had to lock any weapon with these stupid gun locks, is that my kids respected weapons. THey were taught early that they were weapons AND the MYSTERY of a item that is not to be touched was taken away. That stopped the sneaking off and grabbing a loaded gun.
A unloaded gun, or a locked gun is nothing but a useless club. Ironically i never lost any of my kids to a loaded gun, or a gun accident. But i did lose my oldest son to a baseball bat in which someone beat him to death with. Never caught the murderer.
IN my family no one has ever been killed accidentally by a gun, no one has been the victim either. Since were all armed to the teeth, we take our safety seriously, and since the police cannot and are not commissioned to protect the public, that is our job to secure our own safety.
My heartfelt condolences to you for the loss of your son. What a nightmare that must have been. :'(
I'm so sorry you had to have that in your life. But I'm sure the memories of him are alive and well in your heart.
Thanks for sharing your story..
I used to hunt all the time. Loved it.
I still dove hunt. Part of me likes it.. part of me doesn't.. .( but secretly it really bothers me )
I don't deer hunt anymore. Not that I won't if I need the meat.. but I would rather go with the guys and video their hunt.. That way I get to hunt with my camera..and I am the one that doesn't have to pull the trigger. LOL
( I have kinda lost my "grit" so to speak.
Guess that is why I love competition and target shooting.
Man, that's an awful thing to have happen to you and your family, I'm very sorry.....My Dad taught me and my sisters to respect his guns and to use them and I taught my boys and my daughter the same way. It's somthin everybody used to do.......
You're so right, Pam...I have relatives that have wandered all over this earth and they report that ALL children, regardless of where they're at, play some form of "cowboys and indians", whatever form that takes in their country (and all children have that "nah-nah-nah-nahnah" sing-song thing, too...wonder if that is just a genetic thing with humans?). I, personally, have always just laughed with I see parents getting all neurotic over play guns...if you just ignore it (but also make sure they don't point them at anyone, so they learn that lesson young), they eventually grow out of the propensity to want to play around with play guns. The more you harp on it, the more they're going to get fascinated with them and think, "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhh...these must be REALLY neat...see how wierded out my parents are getting???".
Quote from: Catwoman on August 08, 2008, 08:39:44 PM
You're so right, Pam...I have relatives that have wandered all over this earth and they report that ALL children, regardless of where they're at, play some form of "cowboys and indians", whatever form that takes in their country (and all children have that "nah-nah-nah-nahnah" sing-song thing, too...wonder if that is just a genetic thing with humans?). I, personally, have always just laughed with I see parents getting all neurotic over play guns...if you just ignore it (but also make sure they don't point them at anyone, so they learn that lesson young), they eventually grow out of the propensity to want to play around with play guns. The more you harp on it, the more they're going to get fascinated with them and think, "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhh...these must be REALLY neat...see how wierded out my parents are getting???".
You know when i was a kid, we had cap guns, bb guns, real guns. I think i got my first .22 at 7 years old.
But i was not to use it without an adult around. I was around 10 years old when i got my 410 shotgun and went squirrel hunting and rabbit hunting by myself. Used to wander all over the farm and other peoples farms.
While i was allowed to do taht because i was responsible, i think what really taught me that guns kill was being 8 and 9 years old we used to have bb gun wars. We used to build up our bunkers and walls and have wars in the neighborhood. We learned real quick that those ole daisy bb guns hurt when you get hit. It clicked in our heads at that time that if a bb hurts this bad, imagine what a bullet would feel like.
When i was in 6th grade i used to take my .22 to school with me. I would drop it off at the principals office and we had a target range in the back of the school where we would shoot. We had a retired marine that taught science classes there and he would teach us how to shoot after school. I could go buy a box of 500 rounds for .40 cents and shoot for a couple days. :)
WE NEVER and i mean NEVER had a problem at school with the guns. MOST kids were respectful of guns and if you had one and knew how to shoot one, you were like popular in school.
You can't even have a pocketful knife with you at school now...... ::)
Quote from: Teresa on August 08, 2008, 10:48:04 PM
You can't even have a pocketful knife with you at school now...... ::)
Uhmm or keychains.
I went to pick up my kids from school one day, drove my pickup truck in which i carry my rifle with me, alsso sometiems i carry my revolver. IF i had not have personally known the school resource officer, as well as my oldest son being a marine they would have succeeded in arreesting me for driving onto property to get my kids.
I essentially told them to stick it in their ear, that i had not committed a crime and i am a free law abiding citizen that has a constitutional right to own and carry a firearm. I never even entered a building with it. They tried to give me crap over driving onto the property.
One thing that surprised me moving here from georgia is that i have heard that you can't have a loaded gun in your vehicle. In Georgia the vehicle is a extension of your home and thereby you are allowed to carry a firearm loaded in your vehicle concealed.
Its amazing that anyone would restrict someone from carrying protection. My guns are like my american express card. Never leave home without it :D
Even back when Derek was a sophomore.. They almost expelled him form school permanently for having a "potato gun" in his back seat of his LOCKED car.. parked out in the parking lot.
The crazies called the sheriff and they all acted like Barney Fife at their first crime scene..
My god, it was ridiculous.
I know it's so hard to find a middle ground on these things. We have similar problems too. No matter which way you go somebody is unhappy. It's either handled too leniently or too harshly.
I remember when I was growin up almost everybody had a rifle, a rope, and one of those little cow whips hangin in the back window of the truck lol. And you didn't think anything about drivin to school with em. or anywhere else for that matter. First time grandad let me go rabbit huntin by myself I think I was like 10 or 11, he counted the shells in the .22 and told me I better bring back somthin for every one I used lol.
Everybody carried a pocketknife and hell half the time got em out in class to do somthin and nobody ever got cut or stabbed :P I still carry two in my purse cause I USE em! Never think about it till I see a sign about you can't have guns or knives here :P
Think the problem nowadays is the whole guns kill people line people been spoutin, the more urban the world becomes the farther removed from common sense it gets. The lack of personal responsibility in this country just boggles my mind sometimes. Always blame it on somthin else, "the gun did it, the movie I watched made me do it, the video game warped my mind, the MUSIC made me do it " " Oh it's cause I'm poor, My moms a crackhead" I'm sorry but you don't live in a vacuum dude, you can't not know there is another way to live. It's lack of raisin and lack of bein taught that if you are gonna dance you are gonna HAVE to pay the band sooner or later that makes em think they can get away with doin it :P Lack of bein taught " Hey it's a movie, game, cartoon, song etc. It's MAKE_BELIEVE not real life!"
But that's just my soapbox tirade for the day lol, your opinion may differ :laugh:
People really need to get a grip
QuoteWhen Marshal and I was in Missouri last week, we were just poking around in a an old five and dime store, there was a small boy about 6 years old.. he wanted a cap gun that used the roll caps. His mother( who was about 30) vehemently said NO.. he was NOT having any kind of gun..and she walked around the corner.. Well his grandma was standing there and she and I locked eyes..and I kinda sadly shook my head and sighed..and I walked by the little boy ( who was holding this gun and looking at it) and kinda ruffled his hair and smiled at him.. and then looked back at his grandma..
I moved down the aisle and was looking at some things and she said.. " you can have the gun. " her daughter came around the corner and said,"No Mother.. he CAN NOT have the gun". I will not have any kind of gun in my house. "
The grandma looked at her and said.. "He can have the gun and play with it at my house and leave it at my house".
The little boy smiled so big at his grandma and his mom with that look of "can I for real have this?" look.
The young mother looked at her mother and said" well he has to keep it at your house"
You know - I see a very different issue here. Ignore, please, the topic of guns for a moment.
What I see is a mother saying no and another adult (in this case grandma) teaching the six-year-old that you don't have to obey your parents, there are ways around mom to get what you want.
I think there'll be trouble in that house later on, when mom says no on another topic and the little boy knows he can go some place else and ignore mom's teachings.
Whether mom is right or wrong isn't the issue.
The issue is she should be able to decide the rules for her children.
Anyone else bothered by this aspect? ??? ???
Quote from: Mom70x7 on August 10, 2008, 01:42:03 PM
QuoteWhen Marshal and I was in Missouri last week, we were just poking around in a an old five and dime store, there was a small boy about 6 years old.. he wanted a cap gun that used the roll caps. His mother( who was about 30) vehemently said NO.. he was NOT having any kind of gun..and she walked around the corner.. Well his grandma was standing there and she and I locked eyes..and I kinda sadly shook my head and sighed..and I walked by the little boy ( who was holding this gun and looking at it) and kinda ruffled his hair and smiled at him.. and then looked back at his grandma..
I moved down the aisle and was looking at some things and she said.. " you can have the gun. " her daughter came around the corner and said,"No Mother.. he CAN NOT have the gun". I will not have any kind of gun in my house. "
The grandma looked at her and said.. "He can have the gun and play with it at my house and leave it at my house".
The little boy smiled so big at his grandma and his mom with that look of "can I for real have this?" look.
The young mother looked at her mother and said" well he has to keep it at your house"
You know - I see a very different issue here. Ignore, please, the topic of guns for a moment.
What I see is a mother saying no and another adult (in this case grandma) teaching the six-year-old that you don't have to obey your parents, there are ways around mom to get what you want.
I think there'll be trouble in that house later on, when mom says no on another topic and the little boy knows he can go some place else and ignore mom's teachings.
Whether mom is right or wrong isn't the issue.
The issue is she should be able to decide the rules for her children.
Anyone else bothered by this aspect? ??? ???
Not really you know. I often overrode my ex's decision when she was being unfair. First of all, this mother wasn't teaching she was freaking. IF she had been teaching she would have explained why she didn't want the toy in her house so that the child would understand.
Grandma understood what was going on here and made it possible that the boy could have something like that when he was at her house which is her jurisdiction and under her rules. Mom got her way of no toys in the house and Grandma showed fairness and a whole lot of wisdom in her decision.
Obedience is not taught over a toy. Honestly that would be just plain cruel. You teach obedience in things like requriing them to answer when you call, requiring them to come to you the first time you call them not the 10th. things like that.
Using toys to require obedience is extreme. Pick your battles. LOL your going to have to with kids. You can rule with a iron fist and beat the heck out of them for disobedience, and all you will get are sad fearful children. IF you use some intellegence, allow the children to make their own mistakes UNLESS it interferes with their future or it is detrimental to their health or life, or if its defiant to adults. Those three things i would demand instant obedience. The rest in life can be used as a good lesson to teach with.
Honestly this mother passed up a wonderful teaching method for her child that would have possibly saved her childs life. As it is this child is interested in guns right. So next time this child is over at joes house and joes dad has his .357 sitting in his nightstand, this child is most likely going to say kool let me see. IF mother had of used the toy as a teaching aid, or even gotten her son a bb gun, then it could have taught the child hey its a weapon its a tool and it can kill.
We as parents and yes i made a lot of mistakes, don't utilize the tools God gives us to prepare our kids. Shoot, everythign can be used as a teaching lesson.
Thank you.. You just said what I was going to say.. but in a much better way.
The same can be not only said for guns but anything that "has an allure" to it.
We always had Playboy magazine around the house. It was in the magazine stand along with Guns and Ammo, Sports Afield, Good Housekeeping, Readers Digest and National Geographic.
The boys could pick up any or all or none of the magazines any time that they wanted to to read the articles or look at the pictures. We also didn't freak out about nudity in our house. The bathroom door was always knocked on..but generally if the boys needed something or needed to talk ( invariably when I was in the bath tub or shower ::) They came in an it was no big dea to anyone of us.
I remember when Danny came home form School once and told me that some boys got in trouble for having some nude magazines in the locker room. I ask him what kind of trouble they got into.( they meaning "he" and all of them) .
He informed me that "he" wasn't in on it. he said he looked at them briefly, but it was no big deal to him, so he went
on in and took a shower.
he then ask me .. " Why does everyone make a big deal out of naked bodies mom?"
I said, "Beat me Honey.. Boobs and Butts are parts of the bodies.. no different than any other part.. they are just the parts that are covered up.. LOL "
he just shook his head and walked off.
So I knew then that I was doing good with the openness of not making anything a "big deal".
Guns, . naked bodies.. whatever.. take away the allure with good teaching behind it and you shouldn't have a problem.
"Guns, . naked bodies.. whatever.. take away the allure with good teaching behind it and you shouldn't have a problem. "
Wise words!
I have to agree with Mom 70x7. When we as parents say no to our children no one should over ride that decision. As far a it being an X Wife that is a different problem.
When our daughter was growing up, my husband and I always worked together on what she could have,not have or do. We had a great Grandmother that would always ask us,not overide us if Rachael wanted something.
Army Mom
Actually everybody on this thread has a valid point. It's not an either or kinda subject. Granma probly should of went with Mom but Mom needs to get a grip and a realistic view of guns. I have a daughter-in-law who is like that about guns, I don't understand it, but that's my sons battle to fight for his daughter not mine. I have guns and I try to ease her into stuff just because I think she just hasn't been around any actually. She's a pretty good gal and I figure she'll come around lol. Some people just gotta force the issue tho, dont make them wrong, just goin about it in a not so good way.
I'm like Teresa, one of the lessons I learned early on as a parent or as a kid for that matter is the more off-limits you make it the more attractive it seems to be, give em enough rope to explore and they aren't gonna get too far out.
A friend of mine sent this to us.
Now think about this:
Guns:
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000 (Yes, that's 80 million..)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths
per year, all age groups, is 1,500
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188
Statistics courtesy of FBI
So, statistically, doctors are approximately
9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, 'Guns don't kill people, Doctors do.'
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN,
BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR
I think actually the number of gun owners is closer to 130-140 million (NRA says nearly half the population) and the number of accidental gun deaths per year is less. I know in 1999 there were right over 800 accidental gun deaths.
How many deaths on purpose?
?????
Murders.
I figured that's what she meant, lol. Just don't get the point I guess.
Quote from: Wilma on August 14, 2008, 07:42:35 PM
Murders.
well if there were murders then the person that got murdered should have had a gun. :) that would have evened the odds.
The simple fact is that If the murderer didn't have a gun, they would have used a knife, or a chainsaw, or any other tool out there that would do the job. Heck they might have even used a baseball bat to beat them to death like they did to my son!
I was curious about the number of murders with a gun last year. Does anyone have a figure?
According to the Justice Department site the percentage murders done with guns in 2006 which is the newest I could find was between 59.6 and 69.7% Next was unknown/other dangerous weapons followed by knives/other cutting weapons. The newest murder rates period I could find were approx. 5.6 per 100,000 people Total gun murders in 2006 were 10,177 out of 14,990 Here's the address of the site http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/expanded_information/homicide.html
I still want my gun, at least if I'm goin down they are gonna go with me and my family will be protected.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not anti gun by any means, but police officers are all armed and they are still shot in the line of duty. Every crook knows they are armed and it doesn't seem to matter. Is being armed really a deterrent in the areas where people solve their problems with weapons? This is mostly in bad areas of big cities of course. I've never heard of an officer being stabbed to death, or beaten to death.
Here's some stats on officer deaths: http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/Facts/causes.htm
I think most criminals get pretty intimidated when they see guns and most would flee. There will always be some that won't and those are the ones especially likely to fire at officers.
The way I always look at it is: Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. If a criminal is going to shoot at me, I'd at least like to be armed so that I at least have a slight chance of getting 'em first or to at least go down with a fight.
Kinda wanted to comment on this one. When I was kid growing up in SE New Mexico, our family was somewhat limited in income. I always wanted a cap gun and, finally, one year got one for Christmas. One of my older brothers took it to the movie theater and fired off a few caps and the gun was confisticated and I never saw it again. Lesson: never loan your gun to any one.
Later on, my oldest brother and some of his high school buddies had returned from rabbit hunting. He was sitting in the living room talking to them while cleaning the gun. It went off and through the armpit of one of his friends. As there are a lot of blood vessels in the armpit, he bled profusely and they rushed him to the hospital. My brother was always responsible about guns and this just happened to be an unfortunate accident. Lesson: The saying is "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Wrong! guns kill people. (added note: the bullet continued on through the front door window glass and across the street to a neighbors house narrowly missing his wife.)
When I was a teenager, my mother and I had moved to the mountains of Wyoming where hunting and fishing were the norm. I loved the fishing, but did not carry any kind of gun when the boys would go out hunting. I became the guy who just tagged along. Lesson: Everyone does their own thing. You can do yours and I will do mine.
I served my two years in the army and was never in a combat zone so even though I was issued a weapon (I was in Korea) I never had to use it. I did have to carry it when outside the compound. Lesson: I will protect my freedom, hopefully without using a gun.
When I married, I told my wife there would be no guns other than water pistols allowed in the house. She agreed and we have never had a gun in this house. She always thought my decision was made to keep our kids from accidently shooting someone. I told her years later that the decision was made so that if she was ever violently angry with me, she would not have the means to shoot me! Lesson: If there is no gun around, chances are you are not gonna get shot.
Quote from: mtcookson on August 15, 2008, 08:37:35 AM
Here's some stats on officer deaths: http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/Facts/causes.htm
I think most criminals get pretty intimidated when they see guns and most would flee. There will always be some that won't and those are the ones especially likely to fire at officers.
The way I always look at it is: Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. If a criminal is going to shoot at me, I'd at least like to be armed so that I at least have a slight chance of getting 'em first or to at least go down with a fight.
This is basically my philosophy too.
"He was sitting in the living room talking to them while cleaning the gun. It went off and through the armpit of one of his friends. "
No offense meant but one of the first things Dad taught me was to unload to clean it.
It's just a personal decision whether or not to have a gun or other ways to protect your family. I prefer to be able to protect my family instead of havin to wait a half hour or more for the sheriff to get out here much less find my house! I'm against gun control because criminals don't give a *&^* if it's against the law, I truly believe that if you outlaw guns only outlaws will HAVE guns and then you are screwed. To each his own tho, which is why it should be free choice!
Quote from: larryJ on August 15, 2008, 09:13:12 AMLater on, my oldest brother and some of his high school buddies had returned from rabbit hunting. He was sitting in the living room talking to them while cleaning the gun. It went off and through the armpit of one of his friends. As there are a lot of blood vessels in the armpit, he bled profusely and they rushed him to the hospital. My brother was always responsible about guns and this just happened to be an unfortunate accident. Lesson: The saying is "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Wrong! guns kill people. (added note: the bullet continued on through the front door window glass and across the street to a neighbors house narrowly missing his wife.)
Definitely an unfortunate accident... but to say guns kill people and not people kill people is still wrong. I have a few guns and know of many more laying around elsewhere and they have never killed a person. In that situation the gun was simply mishandled by a person, your brother, and happened to go off. I would think that if he was cleaning it it should have been unloaded, unless it went off in the process of prepping to clean it or something. Regardless... a firearm must have some sort of user intervention for it to go off (unless by some rare chance the firearm mechanically fails causing it to go off, which could be likely on older guns). I have had an instance where I was firing a 9mm semi-auto pistol and the hammer block failed while the gun's safety was on. I only had maybe 5 bullets in the mag and when I went to chamber a round, with the safety on, it rapid fired 3 bullets as soon as I let off the slide. I believe it was a mix of a design flaw and being worn... and also being made in China. :laugh: I was shooting by myself and had it pointed either at a tree or the ground when it happened so nothing bad happened. In the end though, it still required handling from a person for it to have malfunctioned which is why I'm still a firm believer that guns do not kill, people do (whether that be on purpose, accident, or simple mishandling, it will always hold true)
never been for "gun control" because that will only control "legally owned" guns. Remember, so called unloaded guns can still shoot. ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS check to make sure it is unloaded before you clean it. If the rifle or shotgun is being used to hunt, it should be unloaded and double checked before it is ever placed back in the vehicle. Hit a bump, the gun falls and BANG - accident, yes, but just as deadly as if it was discharged on purpose. ::) listen to me. Sounding like I'm the expert on guns. It's just that I too was taught gun safety at a young age and never forgot what I was taught.
Diane, there are no drive by knifings or beatings either.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on August 15, 2008, 11:49:22 AM
Diane, there are no drive by knifings or beatings either.
No they have to get within arm reach to stab you :P So that would be a walk by.....
One thing that not many people know about knives though... a knife will beat a gun within about 20 feet (if the gun is still holstered of course). If a person were to rush you within that distance most times they would be able to get you with the knife before you can pull a gun and fire. Even if you are able to fire though, they usually have enough adrenaline pumping that they can still get you anyway... unless you place your shot very, very well.
I know we've got way off subject from the original intent of this thread, but it's been interesting (and everyone is keeping it in check).
Random thought #1) I have a relative who won't even let us say GUN in front of her son. In fact, they SPELL IT BACKWARDS to talk about it! We always wonder how he'll grow up and how his relationship will be with guns. (His dad used to hunt, though.)
Random thought #2) A guy I know went hog hunting and laid his gun down on the ground to grab something. His dog stepped on the gun and it shot the guy's leg into smitherenes. He still owns the dog. He still owns the gun. His leg is finally healed and he's been hog hunting again. (So, that was "dogs kill people" if we're following that line of thought.. ;) )
Random thought #3) Like alcohol, I think guns are a state of mind. My parents drank beer occassionally when I was little. I knew it was kept in the fridge in the basement (not locked). My parents talked to me about the effects of drinking too much. I saw them drink responsibly. I never had the need/curiosity to sneak beer. My dad also owned a gun he kept in the front closet. My mom was not familiar with guns, but still never made a big deal about it being there. The only time it was used was for Dad to shoot skunks or opposum in the yard. It was made clear that the gun was not a toy. I never had the need/curiosity to play with the gun.
Back to the story... I do agree that the Grandma was wrong... she shouldn't have gone against the Mom's wishes so blatantly. But, I don't agree with the Mom's freaking out either. I don't have kids and I already know that if you freak out about something, that it's going to raise the kids' awareness and curiosity more than just explaining your opinions about it. Candy, pop, knife, gun, stove, mean dog, fan, whatever... the more you freak out, the more curious they get!
MT, you are right about the knife. As Emts we always have to take self defense classes, the proper safe way to approach a car in suspicious circumstances and more. We have a number of law enforcement officers who are also firefighters and Emts and they always tell us that someone with a gun may or may not shoot, but if the person is within 20 feet of you with a knife, you will be cut if that person acts threatened.
Excellent posts.. from everyone.. :)
These People are supporting very Strong Gun controlThey forgot to add: " I'm Barack Obama, and I support this message, because I care about America." :P
I cannot help but wonder what would be the response had the little boy wanted a baby doll rather than a cap cun?
I know. I have seen the exact same thing when that occurs.
To me.. he should be able to have the baby doll. What does it hurt? This little boy was only about 4.
We expect men to have an instant love of kids and to grow up and be good fathers.. but don't allow them ( as little boys) to show any kind of emotion towards anything but bats and balls, guns and trucks..then it is just "big boy ' emotions.
I don''t think it hurts little boys to play with all kinds of toys.. And little girls to play with all kinds of boy toys.
( but it is way more accepted for girls to have trucks than it is for boys to have dolls. )
Mason loves to grab up Ashleys baby dolls and hold and carry them around. He just squeezes and hugs the fire out of them too. . :)l
He prefers his trucks and blocks and magnets.( kid is crazy about all his magnets) but Derek and Rochelle certainly don't stop him from playing with Ash's babys.
What is your take on it?
Nothing to worry about. He is doing what his sister does because he admires her. He has also probably seen his daddy admire the dolls because little girls have a way of asking for Daddy's approval. He will probably also go through a phase of wanting to wear her clothes or try out makeup because that is what big sister does and he thinks she is just about the most precious person on earth.
What could go wrong is denying him the pleasure of thinking his sister is perfect.
Somewhere I have a poem stashed away entitled Williams' Doll. It encompasses this to a tee, and if I have time, I will try to dig it out. Wilma you are right on, how can a little boy learn to cuddle a baby without practice? And Teresa you are right on also.
my opinion? Let kids be kids. Nothing wrong with a little boy carrying around and hugging a baby doll. He is showing love and caring, things he likes his mommy and daddy to do to him. I never had boys, but have grandsons and great grandsons. To my knowledge none of them have ever been reprimanded for playing with "girl" toys. Toys are just that, toys. Share and share alike, be it dolls, trucks, jumping ropes or story books. Don't clutter their little minds with "boys don't play with that, that's for girls" and visa versa.
I grew up back and forth between two households, both of which had guns hanging in the gun racks on the wall. I knew they were not for me to play with. I had my own guns to play with. I still fondly remember my guns and holsters, water guns, bb gun and various toy rifles. I would wear them today except I am already considered eccentric enough. :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: sixdogsmom on August 15, 2008, 08:47:40 PM
I cannot help but wonder what would be the response had the little boy wanted a baby doll rather than a cap cun?
Gotta say i have two big tough as nails, manly men Marines that turn to absolute mush when they hold a baby or small child in their arms. Shrug. Whats the problem with it? They didn't have dolls around much since i have mostly boys. But i made sure they got to hold babies, and small chldren. Best birth control in the world :)
Roma.. you could strap those guns and holsters on when you ride your bike marathons... ;D
Time to add some fuel to the fire: :D
People who live in communities with a lot of guns are more likely to kill themselves, a new study says.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17risk.html
Among the 50 states in the United States, those with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of suicide among children, women and men.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=205&wlid=5&cn=9
57 percent of those who kill themselves do so with a gun.
http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/52/8/999
I wonder how many of those suicides would have been accomplished some other way if a gun hadn't been available.
A lot.. a whole whole lot Wilma... :(
More specific quotes from the articles listed above:
When people have less access to guns, they are less likely to commit suicide.
75% of all suicide attempts are by the use of drugs. These people are found alive 97% of the time. Those who succeed in using drugs to attempt suicide are successful only 3% of the time. By contrast, more than 90% of all suicide attempts by use of firearms are successful.
The study emphatically states that people are less likely to die when guns are not available.
In my opinion, simply making guns less available is not the complete answer to the problem of suicide because it eliminates a method and not the cause of such despair that leads the young to attempt such an awful act.
The effect of gun control was forcibly brought to me recently when a nonphysician colleague asked me to provide psychopharmacologic consultation for a young man whose engagement to be married had been abruptly terminated. He had thought of killing himself the previous week and had gone to a sporting goods store to buy a gun. I asked whether he had purchased one. He looked at me disappointedly and said, "No—in New York State it takes six months to get a license... a lot of good that does!" That man is alive today, getting treatment, and doing better because some members of the community cared enough to legislate to limit access to firearms.
And there you have it, the rest of the story. However, it may not be a reason for gun control, but the immediate access to by is probably a good thing. I would like to see illegal guns addressed, how many estimated and how to deal with it. How many guns are illegally exported? Mexico seems to think a lot of them are.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on August 17, 2008, 12:57:49 PM
. I would like to see illegal guns addressed, how many estimated and how to deal with it. How many guns are illegally exported? .
If you think it is possible to address and control "illegal" firearms, you are dreaming. They have always been available and they will always be available, but only those who use, need or supply them will know where and how many there are. That information most likely will never be made available to the law or law abiding citizens.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on August 17, 2008, 12:57:49 PM
And there you have it, the rest of the story. However, it may not be a reason for gun control, but the immediate access to by is probably a good thing. I would like to see illegal guns addressed, how many estimated and how to deal with it. How many guns are illegally exported? Mexico seems to think a lot of them are.
If i was that individual and i was serious about commtting suicide, i would just go down the street and buy one for 50 - 100 bucks. The fact that he went to a sporting goods store to get one means he wasn't serious.
As far as controlling illegal firearms, you can't. Not possible. THe reason why we have such a problem with illegal ones is because of the gun control laws and the background checks.
Third, i have never gone through a background check to obtain a gun. And my guns are legal. So background checks are as worthless as teats on a bore hog!
If somebody has reached the point of seriously wanting to die they are gonna use a method that will work, hopefully quickly, so they use a gun. If they have seriously reached that point they will use whatever they can if guns aren't available. Somebody caring enough to find out why will do more good than outlawing guns will.
We get pills, guns, razor blades, hanging, jumping off buildings and bridges, jumping out in front of big trucks, driving into something solid and lying down on train tracks. Very sad.
Yes it is......
Earlier this summer a suicide was commited next door to my old home in Sedgwick County. The young lady hid her truck behind a big building where it wasn't easily seen from the street, took a handful of pills and died. It was too late by the time a neighbor got curious about a strange truck being parked on the property and called the owner who called the police. If a person is determined to die, they are going to do it in a way that is easy and too late to be helped. If they fail the first time, they will try again.
I can't imagine anything bad enough to leave your family with the sadness and guilt of committing suicide.
That's the ultimate in selfishness.
And I understand that mental illness is a big part of suicides and that just breaks my heart. You always wonder if someone..somewhere ..could have maybe helped.
I am sure that we all have had times when you just are so tired of everything that all you would like to do is escape and never be found.. but to kill yourself?? That is very very desperate.
Not me.. I am too afraid I will miss out on something tomorrow.. LOL
But if I was going to do it.. I sure as hell would NOT shoot myself. I hate pain.. and if you don't get that gun just right.. EEeooowwwweeeee... it doesn't work and then you are in a vegetative doo doo state for the rest of your earthly time. That to me would be the worst hell you could live through.
I suppose if I had to do it I would take pills.. lots of them... and go to the woods or something.. ( like an old cat who knows it is her time to go) then you just go to sleep... but if it involved pain?? NEVER........Forget it.
Again.. I had one of my best friends commit suicide.. ( she had access to guns.. but didn't use them ) but she still did it.
Sad thing is.. and I will never get over the guilt..is the fact that I hadn't talked to her for about a month ..and I had thought about her so much and kept thinking I should call.. never in a million years dreaming that she had any intention of ending her life. She just wasn't that personality type at all..and .........well... it was awful...
soooooo.. no matter what the speculation is about guns or pills or razor blades..
The fact is.. if they are going to do it.. they will find a way.
Made by an acquaintance of mine..
not to make light of anyone who has taken their own life or anyone who has lost someone to suicide, but Teresa mentioned if the gun isn't positioned just right, ouch and pain . . . this reminded me of a guy who lived in Severy and decided to kill himself. He put the shotgun under his chin and pulled the trigger. YEP - shot his chin off - but the rest of him is just fine, last I knew.
Quote from: Teresa on August 18, 2008, 02:42:55 PM
I can't imagine anything bad enough to leave your family with the sadness and guilt of committing suicide.
That's the ultimate in selfishness.
I have been through Open heart surgery twice. The depression that follows it, will drive you to suicide. I can't describe how bad it is but its not selfishness at all. Your in so much pain and sadness that you wish to leave period. Until you go through that kind of sadness and pain you can't really relate to or understand the act. Losing all hope, all desire to live, believing no one cares, no one would even notice you were gone is part of what thought process that goes on in your mind.
Usually it is a culmanation of bad events that triggers a person to act. Sometimes its medication that causes it. I was taking a anti-depressant and it made me so numb that i could have walked in front of a semi going down hyw 400 and not cared.
QuoteAnd I understand that mental illness is a big part of suicides and that just breaks my heart. You always wonder if someone..somewhere ..could have maybe helped.
You forget too that its not just mental illness. It can be physical illness too. Cancer is one.
QuoteI am sure that we all have had times when you just are so tired of everything that all you would like to do is escape and never be found.. but to kill yourself?? That is very very desperate.
I see no difference between suicide and when folks just quit living. I know of older couples that one dies and the next one is gone within six months. When you lose all hope or purpose to live, then you die.
Quote from: flo on August 18, 2008, 03:08:59 PM
not to make light of anyone who has taken their own life or anyone who has lost someone to suicide, but Teresa mentioned if the gun isn't positioned just right, ouch and pain . . . this reminded me of a guy who lived in Severy and decided to kill himself. He put the shotgun under his chin and pulled the trigger. YEP - shot his chin off - but the rest of him is just fine, last I knew.
Goes to show that if God isn't ready for you to die, you won't.
:)
My grandparents died within 6 weeks of each other. Grandma died of abdominal cancer. Grandpa was already bedfast with lung cancer. He just gave up and 6 weeks later died. We always said he died of a broken heart. Grandpa was 1/4 Indian and you know the old Indian saying, "It is a good day to die".
Steve thanks for your post on depression\suicide. Past work for the county hospital and personal life experience make this a special very important topic for me. If anyone wants to know more about this topic or donate money to help I post a good place to start:
http://www.nami.org/
The National Alliance on Mental Illness.
David
Quote from: dnalexander on August 18, 2008, 04:30:40 PM
Steve thanks for your post on depression\suicide. Past work for the county hospital and personal life experience make this a special very important topic for me. If anyone wants to know more about this topic or donate money to help I post a good place to start:
http://www.nami.org/
The National Alliance on Mental Illness.
David
I didn't tell ya, this past october i went through open heart surgery and it took 2 months for that depression that open heart patients get to hit me. I am going to tell ya, if you go through it its one of the worst depressions you can get. Its not mental its a physical trigger.
But i got one med that would probably have caused me to kill myself eventually while on it so i stopped taking it. It took antoher 6 months for the depression to get bad enough to where i wanted to die then. But a good friend of mine saw it and said ok enough, your going to the doc. LOL I got celexa and though i hate its side effects it does take the depression away. :)
I know we are off topic but as with all conversations in a coffee shop what people say makes the topic change. Sorry to the original poster.
Steve, this is my most important cause\topic in life. I would drop all other things I trumpet to solve this problem of depression, suicide, etc. This is one of the last areas that medicine doesn't understand. While it has improved, medicines' understanding of brain disorders is still the wild frontier. From personal experience I know this is a hard topic for people. If anyone wants to talk to someone who understands depression\suicide in a private way and wants to know what resources are available to you please feel free to privately contact me at dnalexander@hotmail.com This has been an increasingly important topic to me over the past 25+ years.
David
I want to say something about kids and guns. We own guns. My girls are around their dad when he uses them. I don't see a thing wrong with them. We used to keep one close to our beds while we sleeped. Not sure why my husband did this, but we did. When our second child came along, one of the questions during a well check was if we own guns and if so do we own gun locks. I had to lie. I felt bad, but we don't have gun locks and I really don't even know what they are. I have shot a gun, but not very much at all. I know that they have safetys on them, and all are guns are on safety. I think as parents now a days, one must teach them how to respect them.
To those that find guns wrong, dangerous, scary etc. I ask you to consider this, guns are prevalent in our society. No matter what your beliefs about guns everyone would benefit from a gun safety and handling course. My dad was an NRA instructor and taught many people that hated guns how to safely handle, shoot, and secure a weapon. One family friends mom was completely against guns of all kinds toy or real. Her son was a bit of a wild child. My dad convinced her to let him teach Mike target shooting and take him with us to our weekly shooting outing at the gun range. I ran into Mike a couple years ago and was suprised to see a basically juvenile delinquent turned into a very responsible person. After talking to him for a while he related to me that my dad teaching him how to target shoot was the most transforming moment in his life and that my dad was a big influence on "setting him straight". The conversation made us both feel good.
David
Quote from: dnalexander on August 18, 2008, 05:37:43 PM
To those that find guns wrong, dangerous, scary etc. I ask you to consider this, guns are prevalent in our society. No matter what your beliefs about guns everyone would benefit from a gun safety and handling course. My dad was an NRA instructor and taught many people that hated guns how to safely handle, shoot, and secure a weapon. One family friends mom was completely against guns of all kinds toy or real. Her son was a bit of a wild child. My dad convinced her to let him teach Mike target shooting and take him with us to our weekly shooting outing at the gun range. I ran into Mike a couple years ago and was suprised to see a basically juvenile delinquent turned into a very responsible person. After talking to him for a while he related to me that my dad teaching him how to target shoot was the most transforming moment in his life and that my dad was a big influence on "setting him straight". The conversation made us both feel good.
David
I never went to a training class nor did any of my kids. I taught them safety as did my dad for me and my grandpa and my ggrandpa ect.
To this day we have never had a gun accident in our familiy ever. We have never locked a gun nor hid one. There usually is two or three loaded ones in the house, since a unloaded gun is nothing but a club, and none of the kids are in danger as they are taught to respect them.
I did for the first time in 2005 take a gun safety class because the state of georgia determined that anyone born after jan1 1961 had to to get a hunting license. I was born feb 61. I never got one and never quite frankly have ever been asked for a safety card all these years.
But i took my son to the class and got him one and i took the class along with him.
Figured it wouldnt hurt :)
I haven't been a NRA member in years. I left the organization when they started selling us out. :(
Also to reply to the original theme of the thread. Parents are the "Supreme Court" what they say goes. If you want to change the rules there are ways to do it. That is why good parents stick together on a rule even thugh both don't support it to the same level. As soon as kids know they can divide and conquer they are more than smart enough to do so and take a type of control over the situation.
David
Quote from: srkruzich on August 18, 2008, 05:44:32 PM
I haven't been a NRA member in years. I left the organization when they started selling us out. :(
Someone said it best when they called the NRA "Our 800 pound gorilla on capitol hill".
I don't agree with everything they put out and they can be quite shrill about stuff, but they DO get the attention of these knucklehead politicians, and that is important.
What organization out there is better or has more influence than the NRA? Tell me and I will join them today. The NRA is the only game in town, like them or not. Yeah, they have done things in the past that they should not have done...that had people riled up.. http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=9899
But they basically tried to stay out of politics completely until the 60s!
If not for the NRA, you would have no gun rights today, period. People can choose to not believe that if they want to, but that is the truth.
Later on, my oldest brother and some of his high school buddies had returned from rabbit hunting. He was sitting in the living room talking to them while cleaning the gun. It went off and through the armpit of one of his friends. As there are a lot of blood vessels in the armpit, he bled profusely and they rushed him to the hospital. My brother was always responsible about guns and this just happened to be an unfortunate accident.
In looking at the replies posted here, i should probably say that it has been 50+ years since this happened. It is possible that he wasn't cleaning the gun. He might have been unloading it, or it could have been dropped, etc. My memory is dim along with parts of the rest of me. Suffice to say, if the gun had not been in the house, the kid would not have been shot on that day at that time.
I live 20 miles east of Los Angles. I worked for the Los Angeles Times for 34 years. Everyday when I wake up and turn on the TV the news stories are mostly about who shot who (we have a lot of gangs around the area). This is broadcast media and they are limited to the amount of stories and time that is devoted to them. So they tell the attention grabbing ones such as murders and other crimes which makes the greater LA area look like crime is a huge problem and it is in some parts of the county. It is not a true representation of the whole greater southern California area. Broadcast Editors have to pick and choose and they choose the crime stories. With print media, Editors have a greater latitude in that they can tell the crime stories and also the othe "good news" stories and they are not limited to space for the most part. Hopefully, Rudy will back me up on this one.
Point is-----If you have guns and you like guns, more power to you. I just don't believe in them and if the day comes when someone shoots me then I probably won't and can't care!
Larryj
After the Candlelight Ride last night, (Aug 23), I realize that I probably could strap on the guns. I have come to the conclusion that there are a fair amount of eccentric bicyclists. There were people with all kinds of lights and stuff hanging off their bikes wearing lighted beanies with little propellers on top of their helmuts.