It was brought to my attention today about some changes that are going on in Moline and Severy Grade Schools. Moline and Severy Grade Schools will both house Preschool and Kindergarten classes in each school, but Moline Grade School will have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grades at there school and Severy will house the 4th, 5th, and 6th grades. I just wanted to know what every one thinks about these changes? Come on people just speak up and let me and everyone else know, I really don't care, I was just wondering your opinions!!! This means that if you have a 1st grader and a 4th grader, the 1st grader will go to Moline and the 4th grader to Severy, no matter where they live. So, I know there have got to be some opinions out there!!!!
I do know that it costs quite a bit to keep up the two grade schools. They are both very, very old and have to be repaired constantly. However, this plan isn't going to help that at all.
I'm not sure how this program is going to help costs at all. They'll still be using almost the same amount of energy to power the buildings. And fuel? I think they'll use the same, if not more!! West Elk has students who come from Elk Falls, Grenola, Fall River, Piedmont, and Belknap. I think if this plan really goes through we will lose many students to Longton, Burden, Sedan, and Eureka.
I would really like to see a centralized grade school at Howard. I think it would solve our problems tremendously. I know it wouldn't be a cheap project (a new school at Valley Center was almost 54 million dollars). But I do think it would be well worth it.
My child is still in pre school and can still go to Severy. So I'm not really upset about it...YET. But when he gets to first grade, I do not want him going all the way to Moline. Sure, Billy works there everyday, but I'm either home or in El Dorado everyday. Keep in mind, my home is not far from Severy. I would feel more comfortable with him being 7 minutes away from home versus 30 minutes. And when I have more children, I don't want them split up. I think that's terrible.
And what about the teachers? Are they going to lose them? The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade teachers at Severy, will they be gone since those children will go to Moline???
I'll try to find out more today when someone from the school visits for Lane's speech program.
I think all they'll really accomplish is ticking a lot of people off.
I was at the school board meeting when this decision was made. The discussions were private, but the vote was public and it was not unanimous.
They will save money on the teachers - instead of two teachers for each grade, most grades will only have one, I think.
I doubt if the busing is much different from what it already is. They will just be more full.
I just spoke to Ann Mitchell about it. She said they lost 4 elementary teachers this year. That's a big blow! They won't be getting rid of any teachers, just sending them to a different grade...Trying to fill in the gaps I guess. They'll be sending a letter out soon. They're going to try it for this school year. :-\
I'm all for that but I still wouldn't like my Severy kid going all the way to Moline.
I don't have kids yet and this decision does not affect me, but I do have a comment about this situation for Elk County as a whole.
A very large reason for this decision was the loss of all the teachers and the increasing difficulties they have in hiring new ones. Elk County AND ALL CITIZENS are really going to have to start working hard to make this area more appealing to outsiders (teachers, workers, potential employees of local businesses) before any positive changes will happen.
Too bad this is going to be even more of a wedge between all the communities rather than a wake-up call to the entire area.
I agree, Tobina. As a newcomer visiting the Moline and Longton elementary schools for the first time, I was charmed by the small class sizes and personal attention the students get. But the reality is the tax base can't support a class size of 4 or 5 children. I do hope the teachers will be able to keep their jobs in some capacity, but I also understand the reasons for consolidation. I also agree a good solution would be to centralize a school in Howard for the entire county, as that could help with fuel expenses.
I don't have school-aged children but I have an investment in this community, and schools determine its future. There must be some way to attract people to the area, but without decent jobs (which translate into taxes) it is going to be a real challenge.
Another option that was discussed kept the schools the way they currently are, but each teacher would teach at least 2 grades at the same time. So, 1st and 2nd graders would be in the same classroom taught by the same teacher, etc. Apparently, there has been some research done on this method, though, and teacher burn-out rate was typically higher. Teachers in a teaching situation like this would only last an average of 2 years.
Either way, I know this had to be a very difficult decision for school board members. Many of whom have children in school and will face the same issues as the rest of the community.
I agree Tobina. I think that would definitly "burn out" a teacher.
That reminds me of a teacher teaching all ages of school children waaaay back when my grandmother was in grade school.
Burnout huh? Guess the teachers of my day were somewhat tougher . They taught 2 grades and had careers of 40 or more years. Maybe they were more dedicated to their professions. I FEEL THE BLAST COMING!!!!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o ???
In my school years I attended only one school that had one grade to one teacher. All the others ranged from 8 grades in a one room school to 2 grades to a room in a city school.
I am wondering what Margaret Gragg or Agnes Miller would have to say about this. I think they have done it all.
I, too, attended a one-room school. One year, I remember we had 28 students and all 8 grades. Juanita Anderson was the teacher. What a great teacher she was too. I attended school under her instruction from 5th through 8th. My sisters had her all 8 grades and my brother had her through 7th grade. She was a wonderful person as well.
Myrna
Quote from: sallysigner on June 11, 2008, 05:17:52 PMBurnout huh? Guess the teachers of my day were somewhat tougher ....
You're so funny! I'm pretty sure EVERY profession was a lot tougher years ago. Farmers had to use real HORSE power and fertilizing the field meant mucking out the barn first ;D; homemakers had to heat up laundry wash water in a boiler outdoors & prepare food from butchering to washing dishes from scratch; clerks had to write everything by hand and neatly too ~ before manual typewriters (even they are dinosaurs today.) People here in our lifetime are all so very spoiled ~ not complaining though! I love being spoiled.
I also don't have children at this age in school, but as Indygal said, we all have an investment in this community. I know the school board would have made the best choice they could with the resources available. It will be a problem for many people, but I don't see a better answer and it does seem like a reasonable compromise. I know the people in Moline won't want to see their kids get bussed to Severy and vice-versa, but will it be any easier for them to take their kids to another district? Maybe a few with out of town jobs could manage, but I don't think most people could afford that twice daily trip either.
I agree that a centrally located grade school for the entire district would be the best, but even that would take years. First you'd have all the discussions and voting for it (and against it! :P), then start again for the financing, then preparation and building. I hope it happens, and soon; but it isn't going to happen before August.
One of the reasons we're having trouble HIRING teachers is our low base pay. We're in the bottom 1/3 of all the schools in Kansas for base pay.
We had both an English teacher and a Math teacher for the high school almost hired. They liked the schools, the people, the classrooms, the community - everything except the pay. My understanding, from an earlier school board meeting, is they went to Garden City, which has a base pay of $50,000, considerably more than ours.
It's hard to raise the base pay here; to do so the board would have to raise taxes - which is hard to do in a primarily fixed income community.
It is NOT a good time to be a school board member. Whatever decision they make will be second-gussed by half the community. I've attended most of the meetings for the last several years. While I din't agree with their decisions, I do applaud the members for making them. The more meetings I attend, the more I know I would NOT want their job! :D
Ok, I started this topic and I have been gone and just read your remarks. First, they can't attract teachers because of the pay is totally right. You can go to Sedan and make almost 3,000 more than here. I also think that a first year teacher might not come here either because of pay and with the rising fuel cost it makes it very hard. Second, class sizes and amount of students in the district are really small. This is the problem at hand. You guys it isn't going to get better!! I love this community!! I don't want my children to go anywhere else to school. We have a wonderful school system, but the problem is that we just don't have the money to support 3 schools. Severy lost 4 Great Teachers this year. They were committed to their jobs, I think the reason that 3 of them left wasn't because they couldn't handle it, it was that they were driving from Eureka and Douglass and the price of gas was getting way to high for them. And also, they can make more money other places. I don't blame them!!
Ok, I know this is going to upset some but here goes. We are not fixing the problem right the first time. We are just masking the problem for now. I want to tell you, if I had a first grader that lived close to Climax that was attending Severy but will be now asked to go to Moline, I would send them to Eureka first. Why, because it is much closer for the child. How long do you think that this child will be on a bus every day??? This year my 2 kids will be at the same school. But if this happens again next year I will have one in Moline and one in Severy. I don't want that. The reason being is that sometimes the girls have dentist appointments and doctor appointments and that would make it very hard for me to get them to and from. I would have to leave earlier to go get the one at Moline and then go and get the other at Severy before we head off to Wichita for their Dentist. I have one parent this year who will, if she keeps them here, have a 3 year old at Severy and her 3rd grader at Moline. I know many of you think that 3 is to young for school, but this little kiddo needs it. The parent was going to put both of them on the bus in the morning together and they would go to school together. Now, she just doesn't know what to do. The 3 year old will have to ride to Severy by themselve. She was really upset over this decision.
My husband is usually pretty low key when it comes to the school, but is truly upset!! He's thinking is that they are not solving the problem at hand!! My husband is looking into homeschooling our children. I have an elementary degree, so I would be the one to do it. But if the schools stay this same way next year we will have 2 in Severy and 1 in Moline. We are busy parents and not that we don't value are childrens education that they are receiving, it just wont work for us to have our kids split up. I am sure that we could do the homeschooling with no problem, but I actually like our school system. We have wonderful teachers that go the extra mile for our students.
The school district is just trying to get by. We really need to fix the problem. The fix would be to build one building for Elementary in Howard! I know that many will be mad at this decision, but will declining enrollment and economy, we need to really do something!!
Ok, I wrote a book, but that is my thoughts on this subject.
I forgot I was going to comment on the teachers teaching 2 grades. I have seen this work in largers schools. My nephew goes to Leon and they do this at the Kindergarten and 1st grade level. I don't know how well it would work here. The objective of this is that the higher students can bring the lower students up. But not really sure if it would work here or not. But to me, I think that we have great teachers and they could handle it. I think the burn out issue might be a problem, but most of the Elementary teachers that we have love what they are doing and would accommadate just fine.
It looks to me like either solution that was suggested would just be masking the problem of the declining population, not enough money, and too many expenses. I agree that I would not want to be on the school board and have to be making these decisions. It's a fine line between making something work for NOW, and making changes to make it work for the FUTURE. All I understand is that "something" had to be done. And from the posts on this subject so far... it doesn't sound like anyone else has too many solutions, either!
Question on the bus situation: I thought that grade school and high school kids ride the same bus to one grade school, and then one bus would take all the high schoolers to Howard? So people with kids in different schools would ride the same bus at first, and then would be bussed on to the other school? I also heard that maybe the state would be helping with the fuel costs (which doesn't help Frank's ideas of consuming less).
I also wonder if they'll do more of the activities that involves parents in one single location? So that parents don't have to drive to 2 separate schools, but they will all go to the High School for activities (plays, concerts, PT conferences)?
I'm not arguing with anyone on this subject, but "back then" when there was a 1-room school house and the teacher taught students, they were also allowed to punish ill-acting students, too. They probably had more control of a classroom because of this. And they probably weren't under such pressure to make state achievement test scores, either. I, for one, would much rather teach a classroom of 6-16 year olds "back then" rather than just 1 grade now!
I think that teachers are tough. Some of the toughest women I've ever met were teachers. Kids are a lot different now then they were "back then". Many don't mind at all, and the back talk is terrible. I've seen it at school programs along with observations at the high school.
The ways some of the older students talk to teachers truly embarrasses me.
Tough teachers and back then . . . ::) ::) this brings to mind something that happened when I worked as school secretary in Severy. This was during the unification "transition" and at that time were having Jr. Hi in the Severy High School Building. We had a substitute teacher one day that had taught many many years and before the "you don't touch students" rule. One boy was acting up and being a smart ass and disrupting the class and she had told him several times to quit. He continued and she went back to his desk and he informed her she couldn't touch him. Guess what? She told him "watch this" and slapped him up side the head with her hand, grabbed him by the collar and told him "now we'll march over to the principals office together and both tell him what I just done and why I done it". Guess who got in trouble? and it wasn't the teacher. I say GOOD FOR HER. If the teacher doesn't have control of the room, she can't teach them anything. Sorry, I'm from the "old" school also.
in reply to the changes being made in the district attendence centers. There are going to be a lot of unhappy parents and students both. There were many upset parents and students when unification came into place. There were bugs to work out and gradually everyone settled into the routine of their particular attendence centers assigned to them. I am hoping that will be the case in this change. I fully understand where a lot of parents are coming from, but hopefully all will work together to make this work, if at all possible. I'm sure the school board is doing what they think best at this time. They have some tough decisions to make if we want to keep our schools. My children are all out of school, but I have one granddaughter still in the school system and whether or not a person has children in school, it is "all ours" community and without schools, there won't be a community long.
Facts: Moline Grade School will be West Elk Elementary
It will have 1 preschool class, 1 kindergarden class, 2 first grades, 2 second grades, and 1 third grade.
It will have one Title I teacher and one Resource Room teacher
A teacher will need to be hired for one of the second grade positions and a teacher will need to be hired for the
Resource Room position.
Total teachers at Moline 9.
Severy Grade School will be West Elk Intermediate.
It will also have 1 preschool class, 1 kindergarden class, 1 fourth grade, 2 fifth grades, and 1 sixth grade.
It will have 1 Title I teacher and 1 Resource Room teacher.
Total teachers at Severy 8.
Total teacher for grade schools under new plan is 17. Total teachers under old plan 20.
This eliminates three teaching positions. Salary of about 90,000 to 110,000 for all three positions
combined.
Offset the savings of the salaries with increased fuel costs to bus students farther and loss of enrollment from towns such
as Grenola, Elk Falls, Piedmont, and Fall River. If there is a loss of only 15 students at state funding of
about $5,000 per student, then absolutely no money will be saved.
The effect on students: A six year old getting on a bus at 6:45 in the morning to be at school by 7:50 and not returning
home until about 4:45 in the afternoon. That is one long day for a small child. Especially when they are expected
to learn all day long.
Some other student issues will be absenteeism will go up dramatically. Let's not forget that our children nowadays must take state mandated tests that must be passed to keep our schools accreditted. From what I hear we have done well on these tests in the pasts, but could long bus rides and absenteeism affect these scores?
As far as teacher burn out. I have talked to a few teachers and they said they felt they could handle combined classrooms quite effectively. But they were not asked their opinion on how this matter could best be handled. Let's remember these teachers are professionals and they do their job for the love of children not the $.
I just have to ask how you know this. The reason that I ask, I was wondering, the the teachers sake, Mrs. Mercle just transferred back to Moline. I think that it would be unfair to make her switch back now. The price of gas and all. Who is assigning the teachers to which grades? Do the teachers get a say in this??? Not only is all of this somewhat unfair to parents and children but also to the teachers. Do you know the work that it takes to move all of your stuff from room to room what about building to building.
Quote from: Mom70x7 on June 11, 2008, 08:57:01 AM
I was at the school board meeting when this decision was made. The discussions were private, but the vote was public and it was not unanimous.
They will save money on the teachers - instead of two teachers for each grade, most grades will only have one, I think.
I doubt if the busing is much different from what it already is. They will just be more full.
From my experience, most all of the discussions are "private" at the board meetings. For the life of me, I do not know what spending 2 hours of a 2.5 hour meeting in "Executive Session" accomplishes. If you got something to say and someone to say it about, get some balls and say it. Don't lock the doors and make decisions. It is called an "open meeting".
I agree with everyone that we are in quite a predicament.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Minnie in the fact that this will cost more money than it will ever save. You are going to lose kids and that is a fact. Anyone who doesn't think so is kidding themselves.
You are going to spend more money on transportation.
There are no easy fixes, but it would have been nice for the board to put together a committee or something to gather some community sentiment and maybe brainstorm some options before making such a decision.
That is so true Dan. I feel that this was just sprung on the community and we didn't have an opportunity to discuss this with our elected board members. Yes, there was a forum over two years ago, but I don't remember this being something they discussed then. Even if it had, we still should have had the chance to visit with our board before they voted.
I am just guessing that the board didn't think they had time. I know that the teachers that they lost from Severy, 2 of them told the board in May and one told the board in June. But you are so very right, they should have given the community a chance to have input on this issue. They could have held a special meeting to vote on this after the community forum. Why, if we are not saving, are they doing this then??? I know that neither Severy or Moline want to lose their schools, but come on either close one down or build a central location. Would Moline be big enough for all the elementary???
Ask our board members talk to them. That is what I have done. The few that I have talked to said that they didn't realize that it would upset so many people and that we could lose as many students. I know the members I talked to have had a lot of calls from parents and there is even a petition in Moline.
take all the students to Moline and upset Severy. Take all the students to Severy and upset Moline. The only solution is a "central" elementary building and then everyone will hollar we have two elementary schools, what we going to do with them. If Moline and Severy were to lose their schools, they lose their town and there's not a lot left of either. It is a "no-win" situation. The busing of the youngest children will be the biggest concern, I'm thinking. I fully agree, community and parent input should have been a "big" part of this decision. The school board members are elected so that all the district has equal representation. Why were parents not made aware of this before hand and have a chance to let their "elected" board representive know their feelings so that their "elected" board representative could convey these feelings to the board as a whole? Perhaps they did and were voted down. Perhaps they let the public know and we didn't pay attention. I never heard anything about this till I heard it in the beauty shop at Moline on Tuesday and the decision was already made. Can the school board rescind their decision and go another route? well, I reckon they "can" but "will" they knowing now the feelings of the parents? Guess we'll wait for chapter 2.
We could take out West Elk, move the high school to Moline, move the Junior High to Severy and put the gradeschool in Howard.
Angie you're right, it works so well having two grades with one teacher in bigger schools. And it was Latham Grade School where I attended classses that were operated that way. We did have 8 kids in our class. ;D ;D ;D ;D
minnie.. I know you are smack dab in the middle of all this. being a teacher PLUS having 2 boys in school really affects you. As it does with all the parents who have young children.
And you are right.. It is wayyy too long for them to be on a bus.. Too early to start and too late getting home.
They are worn clean out by the end of the day and kids still need time to play and be kids.
School at this young age shouldn't be an all day- plus exhaustive day for them.
Not sure if you were serious or not, sixdogsmom, but there's a reason why you can't change the school locations around.
Howard = High School: gym, track, baseball field, theatre.
Severy = Intermediate School: large gym
Moline = Grade School: small gym/activity area
I agree about the hollering. Look how much people still complain about the school consolidation that happened over 20 (?) years ago. And the fact that there's still 3 separate alumni associations; what's that about?
I think there's another question brewing that's REALLY going to cause a stir (I can't wait)...
Why do we have 2 school districts in such a small county, anyway? How about consolidating Elk Valley and West Elk? There are larger, more populated counties all over Kansas that only have 1 school district and 1 high school!
(Let 'er rip...)
So we know that teachers are going to be rearranged to fill different positons. Especially with Severy losing 4 teachers. Has there been word on what grades each teacher will be teaching? I know I will still be preschool for Severy. But was just wondering what if the teachers have been told what grades they will be teaching next year. I am very happy they decided to have two preschools because I could not see sending Severy preschoolers all the way to Moline or vice versa. That is just way too long for a 3 year old to be on the bus. I don't feel the decision was the best decision but things just need to be worked out and hopefully everything will work out. The board probably did what they felt was the best. Yes they should have gotten community and teacher input but that didn't happen and I agree with Angie that they probably didn't know what to do with 4 teachers at Severy and 1 at Moline gone, they knew there are alot of teaching jobs open in Kansas right now and you probably are not going to get "good" teachers to come here. We have low pay, and our community doesn't offer tons. Yes I moved here and I am happy that I did. But honestly if my husband didn't have family here and didn't convince me to move I know I would not be in Howard. There would have been no reason for me to move. So we as a community and a school district need to make it appealing to others.
Again, I feel that we should at least try this out. It is just a pilot and maybe things might go back to the way they were or we may really like the changes and not want things to change. CHANGE IS HARD AT TIMES BUT WE NEED TO GIVE IT A TRY . :)
I've only talked to a couple of teachers. I know some of them were asked if they wanted to stay with their grade (and switch schools) or stay with the school (and switch grade taught).
That's such a tough decision.
I'm still sticking with my opinion that it stinks!! I hate to see teachers having to leave the school that they've taught at so long.
I'm also very irritated that parents were not informed of the idea so we could be prepared. Why spring it on us? Why not invite us to the board meeting and let us discuss it.
My child is 3 and started preschool last March. I had to take him to the bus IN Howard (because they couldn't "spare" 15 minutes). He went to preschool at Severy...HELLO!!! We live RIGHT between Howard & Severy!!!! THEN, he didn't get home til 4:30 in the evening.
To say that I am disgusted with West Elk is a complete understatement.
Maybe somebody could start a private school. Sounds as though some of you have the education required. Just a thought!
Moline is not the only town with a petition regarding the school board's decision. Severy has one, too.
Mom 70x7, you mentioned you were at the school board meeting when this decision was made and the vote was not unanimous. Could you please tell us which of the board members voted for this change? Thanks.
My memory is the vote was 6-1. Robert Wolfe voted against it.
I didn't write it down, but that's my memory. ;)
I don't know who Robert Wolfe is, but I certainly admire him for standing up for what he thought was best even if it meant he had to stand on his own. People like him make much better representatives of the people than those who are so passive they go with the flow no matter what. Just curious - out of the seven school board members, how many of them happen to have kids in grades one through six?
Quote from: Marcia Moore on June 14, 2008, 06:49:27 PM
I don't know who Robert Wolfe is, but I certainly admire him for standing up for what he thought was best even if it meant he had to stand on his own. People like him make much better representatives of the people than those who are so passive they go with the flow no matter what. Just curious - out of the seven school board members, how many of them happen to have kids in grades one through six?
FYI, Rob Wolfe is a life-long Elk County citizen, who has children in the school system. He is one of the new board members and takes his position seriously...he is there for the betterment of the student population. You are correct that he has the stamina to stand on his own...a trait that makes him singularly well-qualified for the position.
There are only two board members with children in grade school.
The vote certainly reflects that. That is a shame. Hopefully the school board will call a special meeting or two, give the public a chance to speak, and rescind their decision.
I have just visited with a citizen from Moline that informed me that it is possible our grade schools could lose possibly 12 - 15 students from the Moline, Belknap, Grenola area. Take that times $5,000 the school gets from the state. Wow!!
I wonder if we will lose any to Eureka or even Fredonia. Some of the Severy kids live in Piedmont, Climax, and close to Fall River. I haven't heard, but man that is a hit!!
I have been thinking alot about what they are doing. I really don't like it, but what other options do we have??? I don't see any that will really make any real sense to everyone. What ever they decide you are doing to make people mad. At the last public forum, I really wonder how many were really listening? I remember Marty Taliferro making the comment that things are not going to get any better for a long time, number of students and dollars from the state. I have decided that I would rather keep my children in the West Elk district than bus them somewhere else. We have an amazing school system, the teachers are wonderful. Especially at the Grade School level. I am not real familiar with many from the high school, so can't really make a judgment on that. But I want the best education that I can give my children and if we have to do this to keep our schools, I think that we should all just suck it up and get on. I think that many people don't realize how small some of the classes are. I know that my soon to be kindergarter will only have about 7 kids in her class. I think that Moline will have more, I think around 15-20. I also know that the 6th grade class from Severy has never had more than 10 and don't think that the Moline one has either.
If we don't have many students we don't have state dollars coming in. What is a small district like West Elk supposed to do??? I care alot about my childrens education, like many do, keeping them in this district is what is best for them. I think the parents that are thinking of moving their children should really do some research about the districts that they are thinking about sending their children to. I do have to say that I like the Sedan district, too!! But not sure about Longton or Burden. If any of the parents out there have any good suggestions that might work please do tell!! I think that the only other one is to build a new building in Howard, but then again, you make people mad. It is a no win situation!!! You can't make everyone happy!!!
Quote from: minnie on June 16, 2008, 10:38:10 AM
I have just visited with a citizen from Moline that informed me that it is possible our grade schools could lose possibly 12 - 15 students from the Moline, Belknap, Grenola area. Take that times $5,000 the school gets from the state. Wow!!
There has been an exodus of students from Elk County happening over the past 10 years. Now that gas has hit close to $4/gallon, you can expect to see more people move closer to the jobs that they have formerly commuted to/from.
I heard today there is going to be a public forum sometime in July concerning the school change. Don't know any other details.
The details are posted in the headlines for Flinthills paper at the top of the page. Meeting July 10.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on June 16, 2008, 05:26:33 PM
The details are posted in the headlines for Flinthills paper at the top of the page. Meeting July 10.
The Flinthills Express keeps us out-of-towners up on most things, thank goodness (and Mr. Taylor!)
I have been privy to some conversations regarding why combining classrooms would be detrimental to teaching. I guess this was something that the board was told that would lead to teacher burn-out. According to some of the teachers I have visited with, they personally felt that they could handle a combo classroom much better than being shifted to other places. I am told that their burn-out comes from feeling unappreciated and being held with little regard to what it is they do. Many had no idea that this change was taking place until after the fact, and to my knowledge none of the teachers were asked about their opinions regarding the matter. You would have thought a little more investigation would have gone into this venture before it was decided upon.
Having taught combo classes myself (no more than two grades at a time, with no more than one step between grades), I can tell you from experience that teaching combo classes takes a great deal of prep time, a great deal of organization during the dissemination of the materials to the students and a great deal of patience while trying to convey information to two different grades of students...combined with having to monitor for behavior and tracking what has to be reinforced with the mainstreamed SPED students, all this happening while taking documentation so that you are able to grade fairly at the end of the quarter. Beyond that, it's a piece of cake, lol. I am not surprised to learn that there was no warning given to the teachers before this was sprung on them.
Just sat down and read the big story in the Flint Hills Express about the school change, as well as Rudy's excellent editorial, and I now have a somewhat different outlook on the matter. Though I am against the change, I realize it was difficult for the board members to determine what might work best. Severy cannot afford to lose their school, nor can Moline, and no matter how the vote went, someone would have been upset. Glad I am not on the school board. Thanks, Rudy.
I agree, Marcia. Rudy did an excellent job on the story, as well as his editorial. Very good points, and I hope everyone takes them to heart.
So, I didn't get as much of a reply as I thought I would to my question about why Elk County has 2 school districts and has anyone thought of combining them.
So, here's another one for you... why is the Junior High (7th and 8th graders) in the same building as the High School? Why not move the 7th and 8th graders to Severy, along with the 5th and 6th grades, and have Moline be 1-4th? That would also save on gas; as now, the 7th and 8th graders have to be bused after school to Severy to have sports practice anyway. I also think that Junior High students are too young to be that much a part of High School, and the "goings on" of High Schoolers.
then what would they do with all those empty rooms at the highschool?
Good question. I am trying to see what the positive and negative aspects of doing this would be, or if anyone shares the same opinion about Jr High and High School. I guess if I were to try and answer that question, Flo, I would suggest that they turn them into community meeting rooms. I see a great separation between community and school, so this might help in closing that gap. As well as give high school kids the opportunity to participate in community groups, meetings, etc. I bet the government class would love to have the experience of participating/ listening to county commish meetings, city meetings, Rotary club, Lions club, etc (examples only). And those organizations might like a change of venue. Or, to save on electric bills, the District offices could move into those rooms. Any other ideas?
Some of those empty rooms could be used for additional classrooms.
Right now we have one teacher that meets in the cafeteria because she doesn't have a classroom.
I know when they were talking about hiring an extra English teacher and another math teacher, there was concern about where those classes would be held. Removing the junior high students would open up some rooms.
We also don't have a good health room. Students that are sick often sit in the office.
There's a little tiny room that used to be the health room, then it was used for ISS, sometimes it's still used for both, but it's also used for storage - that's where a lot of the extra paper for the copiers is stored.
Question, though - how many of the junior high teachers teach high school classes? I know Jim Madison teachers government to the seniors, for instance.
And PE - that's another group of classes with cross-over teachers.
I urge all parents, members of the communities, and tax payers to attend the meeting that is going to be held in July to attend it. It is important to voice your opinions. We need to stand together as a community of people. I don't care if you agree or disagree with what is going on, but we need to think about the children in this community, not our own selfish selfs. I think that our students are given a wonderful education. We have a group of amazing teachers and the changes affect them to!! We need to support them also!! :angel:
i also urge all to go. I am afraid we are going to lose a lot of good families from the Severy and Moline areas because of this decision. It is extremely hard for a family to have to send their children to three different schools, and that is what is happening to quite a few families in this district.
Where would those families from Severy and Moline go to school if they left the district?
I know of atleast 2 families with great kids in Severy that plan on sending their children to Eureka, and as for Moline area those in Grenola can go to Burden as the west side of Grenola is in Burden school district and buses run through that side of town. Sedan busses will pick up at county line, that is where many in that area are looking.
Hmm. It seems to me that having them go to those other schools would mean just as long (or longer) of a bus ride. And encountering the same issues that they face with West Elk and different schools, etc? Is it really a benefit, or just a matter of principle?
No, I don't believe that it would be a longer bus ride. Eureka is only 15 minutes from Severy. Sedan, only about 10 miles from Belknap corner, I'm not sure of Burden from Grenola. A major issue is continuity. Sending your children to three different places is a major issue for kids and parents. I think you probably don't realize the various trips parents have to make to schools for picking up a sick child, leaving early for doctor or dentist appointments, parent/teacher conferences, as well as many other incidents that pop up during the year. To have to go to different schools to pick up all of your children and keep track of all activities that may be occuring at different places is a huge inconvenience.
Once we lose these families I don't believe we will get them back. The families we are losing were here for the long haul. They had attended school here as children. They enjoyed the fact that the was one continuous flow from grade school to the high school. That is why they are looking elsewhere. It is so their children will be all at one place. I think unless you have children that will be shipped off to 3 different locations, you don't realize all of the challenges that you are faced with.
You're right; I don't have kids so I don't fully realize the issue at hand here. But I did ride the bus for over an hour to school (one-way) when I was a kid... from pre-school through high school, so I can sympathize with the kids.
I was more playing devil's advocate and trying to figure out if this was going to cause a large divide in the community/county like it did when the high school was moved to Howard. No need to say "you don't understand" because eventually, when I do have kids, this WILL affect me and my family. I'm TRYING to understand what's going on, which is why I posed the question the way I did. Sometimes, I feel like people dig in their heels and resist change just on principles/opinions. Rather than step back, take a deep breath, and really figure out how these decisions will affect the community as a whole and for the future. I guess that by NOT having kids, I'm even more concerned, because if this issue continues to grow and fester and not get resolved... I worry that Elk County will even HAVE a school system by the time my kids get there.
That is the biggest worry on my mind right now. I too agree that it will be a big inconvience, but with all the students pulling out the district numbers are going to be even smaller. That means even less money from the state and it is just a windfall from there. I know that they are having a hard time even getting 2 positions filled. I think the board was right to worry about filling all the other positions that they would have had if they don't do this combination. I am not for the combination at all. This year 2 of my girls will be at Severy, but next year I will have 2 in Severy and one will be shipped to Moline. It worries me alot thinking about that. I think the one that will have to go to Moline won't understand why she can't go to school with her sisters. I just wish that we weren't in this position at all. It is causing alot of problems for everyone. So many rumors, so many angry people.
Tobina, I am also sitting back thinking of the different positive things about this. The kids from Severy and Moline will know each other before they go to Jr high together here in Howard. Some of the classes have been very small since Kindergarten, and these students are excited to have more friends in their class. We will still have grade schools for our children to go to. The most important point is that we still have wonderful teachers that have shown that they know what they are doing. Our kids do do really good on the state standard tests. If I was to pull my kids I would make sure that the school that I am going to send my kids to match up. I value my children getting the best education possible. I feel that my soon to be 5th grader has been given a wonderful education.
I personlly don't feel that the board is going to change there minds. I am writting an article to put in the paper. I am not one to step down when it comes to the school board. Like I said before, I put my childrens education very high. I want them to be very sucessful in life. If that means stating my opinion, then so be it. I don't in any way shape or form want to be on the school board, but I feel that they really should have had the meeting before they voted on this change. :angel:
Well, I encourage everyone to think like a school board member (scary, I know). But I mean, don't go into this meeting armed only with your emotions. That's not going to get anyone anywhere. Calculate the amount of time your child will spend on the bus. Calculate the amount of miles you'll spend going to/from school and school-related activities. Go into this meeting armed with facts and figures. And other options. If we all go in there and just say "bad decision"; what can they do? But if we go in there and say "here's a better option", then there's something to consider. I also encourage you to visit with your elected school board rep and get the FACTS rather than just rumors. Visit with them about what options they considered and what the pros and cons were for each option. Then they won't have to waste time explaining all this information during the meeting; you can already get to the discussion part of the meeting.
Just some thought for a successful meeting.
I have visited with school board members regarding this matter. I feel that there was a rush to decide, and from what I hear the positions that came open in Severy weren't ever posted as open postions on the internet site until after school was out. So of course you will have problems filling them. I do have plenty of ideas, they were all discussed two years ago when we had a district wide forum. Of all the options discussed then, the one they are implementing was never brought up then.
Back to visiting with the board members; yes, this is a very difficult situation they are in. But I personally feel as if they should have asked the professionals that work with our children what they feel would be best for the district. Not that they would have to follow that advice, but atleast they could have gotten other perspectives rather than just the superindent's. Yes, there are many ways to save money, and the best way to find those ways are to go to the people that work there everyday. They see things others may not.
Something has to be done to lower costs, I don't think that this was the best option for cutting costs.
Sounds like you have done your homework, Minnie. I hope that everyone follows your example and the meeting is productive and commands results. I worry that if too many people go in there all bent out of shape and emotional, the meeting will not be productive... and if anything, counter-productive.
Speaking of the forum a couple years ago; how was that environment? Was it a good, open meeting with many positive discussions? Were there action items that came from the meeting? Did they narrow the options down? Or was it just an open forum for everyone to voice their own opinion and nothing was really narrowed down? It seems like basing decisions on discussions from 2 years ago isn't good; that's too long and things within the county have changed.
I hope that in this upcoming meeting that they give the teachers and staff a chance to speak, too. And I hope they will without feeling risk of losing their job. And I also hope that the school board is prepared for this meeting. Meaning; they have developed a plan to run the meeting in an organized, effective manner. Give people the chance to speak, but not let them philabuster. Limit the time each person can speak so that everyone gets their chance. Maybe even hand out numbers as they walk in, so that they can only speak in order (and those who arrive first can speak first). They should also hire/have a person to take notes so the board can refer to them later in discussions. Even if the previous open forum was a good, open discussion meeting; that was before a decision was actually made. Just like on this thread; things can get heated very quickly (and people can ramble on, and on, and on, and on... ;D ). I'm done now. :laugh:
Tobina, you are on the right track. It is arrogant and condescending to think that you don't have the common sense to figure out what would benefit the kids, even though you currently don't have multiple children in the system at the moment. If having children in the system were the prerequisite, then most of the Board would have to step down.
Angie, I am very impressed with your committment to USD 282. But then, you always did have the best interests of the kids at heart. I agree, the teachers in Elk County are good.
I wish I had the answers to the problems facing USD 282 right now. But, to be honest, I had children riding the buses in Elk County and found it easier to move to a new location so that we were all going in the same direction. I am sure that the loss of revenues that will result from the Board's decision will be a blow to the district. I look forward to reading what the outcomes of the upcoming meeting are...and I hope that the Board will listen. Not likely, but I can hope, right?
I went to the meeting a couple of years ago. I don't think the meeting went to bad. They did limit the amount of time each person spoke and they also set a time limit for the whole meeting. I think it was 1 1/2 hours. I don't feel like they implemented anything. I guess they did change the number of hours we go a day and this in turn limits the number of days that we go to school. We had one to two days a month off. I didn't like this. I felt that they either needed to have four day weeks or not. It was not easy for parents or children to get used to.
I am going to say I don't really get along with the superindant. I feel that he doesn't treat our teachers fairly. I know people know that I used to teach, but that situation has nothing to do with why I don't care for Mr. Moore. I feel that he relys alot on others to make the decisions or he listen to others and is persuded to easy. He needs to toughen up. I don't hate him, I just don't always agree with the decisions that he makes.
Also, we have new members on the board since the last meeting. Maybe they could really brain storm some ideas, do research, look at other schools, something but this. As Minnie stated before get the opinions of those having to teach these students. Their opinions should weigh heavy on the decision, don't you think.
Ok, you can tell this is a subject that I take very serious and I am starting to ramble!!!!
I am not familiar with the busing as it has been and I am wondering. Suppose a child is picked up on the far west side of Elk County. Is that child brought to Howard, then to Severy or is that child transported directly to Severy?
If the school situation is changed according to the present plan, would that child be riding the bus any longer than he did last year? If Moline children are bussed to Severy, a 20 mile ride, or the other way around, is that child going to be on a bus any longer than the child from the far west side of Elk County has been all along?
Do any of you know families that live in towns like Wichita that the children all go to the same school? Are any of them bussed to the school that they have to attend? And how do the parents handle conflicting situations.
My problems with busing ended when I left Elk County so long ago. Now, because my children are so close to their school, they just walk...except when it is raining or snowing...then Mom's taxi gets into gear!
Does Mr. Moore have kids in the school system? To be honest, I've never even seen the man! As someone new to the community, I try and introduce myself to people I haven't met, or at least ask someone "who is that?" when I'm out and about. But can't say I know who the Superintendent is or ever seen him at events (school and/or local)? Or his picture in the paper?
no, Bert is single and has no children but has worked in the school systems for many many years, even before he became superintendent.
Bert Moore started as Special Ed. Director in 1992, the ascended to the additional role of Superintendent in later years. He is active in educational politics in Topeka and enjoys making stained glass art. He lives in Severy, KS. Angie made some astute comments regarding the man earlier...a brave thing to do, given how much monitoring has been going on of this particular thread by those who have direct or indirect influence with/on the Board. And, no, he has no children in this district.
The VanderMeyden family moved to Severy when I was in School. Bert is part of that family.
Quote from: Catwoman on June 30, 2008, 01:05:46 PM
Bert Moore started as Special Ed. Director in 1992, the ascended to the additional role of Superintendent in later years. He is active in educational politics in Topeka and enjoys making stained glass art. He lives in Severy, KS. Angie made some astute comments regarding the man earlier...a brave thing to do, given how much monitoring has been going on of this particular thread by those who have direct or indirect influence with/on the Board. And, no, he has no children in this district.
I just state my opinion. He does a wonderful job with the special education. I do give him that. Not that he is a terrible superintendent, he just isn't the man I thought he would be. I like him, just some of his decisions are not always the best. Could I do better, probably not, do I want to do his job, NO!!!! Just my opinion!! :angel:
I didn't know he is connected to the VanderMeydens. How so, Flo?
Bert was the man's son. He lived with his father, when he moved back to Elk County, until his father's death.
Whether or not he was legally adopted, I don't know, none of my business, but I believe Moore was his step-father's name. He didn't move to Elk Co., he moved to Greenwood County and he lived with his mother on the farm north of Severy. Then they bought the house in town where he now lives. His father was a son of Dirk VanderMeyden
Flo, are you saying this man is actually a nephew of Dickie? Wasn't Dickie a grade behind us?
not positive, but think Dick was in Susie's class, which was 3 yrs. behind us. Could be wrong. Know Susie talks to him via e-mail. Yes, Dick would be his uncle. Course, Dick was the youngest and quite a bit younger, I'm thinking. But he would still be mid 60's in age.
Dick was the only one I knew. He was tall and thin. Where does he live? Haven't thought of him in years.
I plan on going to the meeting on the 10th, as I have a little one who attends school in Moline and wishes to stay there. I agree with(don't remember who) in a person should be armed with some facts and not just wants when attending meetings like this. As I have been telling my daughter, who is only 6, we don't get what we want just because we want it. It has to make common sense and in this case, financial sense.
For instance, some of the things I am going to look into before addressing anyone is the actual amount of money it takes to run each school. Maintenance costs, energy costs, personnel costs, etc. These costs need to be looked at in the event that one or both of the current schools have to be shut down.
Another thing that I have not done my research on, but mind you I will is the number of administrators currently employed by our district. If enrollment is falling at the rate that is reported, surely we could do with one or two less vice-principles or something along those lines.
We CANNOT get serious about anything until these costs are looked at and some cost cutting options are discussed. With the price of energy and fuel skyrocketing, future cost of operating and school and a school bus are going to have to be part of the discussion.
It is hard to look at this problem rationally and analytically because it involves something that is so personal and emotional. Hopefully the board will be open to some discussion and at least have some new facts and figures to base the decision on, not just a spur of the moment knee jerk.
Dan
Dan,
I am not sure if the highschool has a vice principal but neither of the elementary schools does have one. We had Marsha Evenson (at Severy) acting as principal when Mrs. Hugill was not at Severy but that was to make sure there was someone in charge when Shirley was not there. She was also doing this because she was going to school to be an adminstator. This year they have hired a new principal for Severy and Mrs. Evenson is no longer with us. So like I said I don't know if they do have a vice principal at the highschool but neither of the grade schools does.
What about the shortage of teachers? How can that be resolved?
Hire some
You are right about hiring some. I think that would be great, but they have the two jobs posted on-line and last I heard they couldn't find anyone yet. The pay here in the West Elk District is not the best. I think it is hard to attract newly out of college teachers because many of them don't want to live in a small town. I would if I was them, but then again I am older and have my family. I know that Sedan does pay better than we do but not sure about surrounding areas.
You are right about the cost of things going up. I don't know how they are saving any money by moving the schools like this. Yes, they are only having to hire two teachers, but the cost of fuel would be outrageous I would think.
I think that we are going to lose alot of kids due to the changes. I personally will still be sending my kids to the school they are to go to. I don't like it, but I am not pulling my student out of a school that does such a wonderful job teaching my children. I want the best education possible for my kids.
Do you really think they are going to change their minds? I don't. If they are having trouble finding 2 teachers what do you think they will have when trying to find 4? I think if they were really concerned what parents and the community thought they would have had the meeting right after the announcement of the changes. That is my opinion!!
Thank-you, Angie. And Dan. For choosing to keep your kids in the school district, even with the recent uphevel in the system. I thank you because I don't have kids (yet) and when I eventually do, I hope to heck there is still a school district in tact in this county. And the only way there will be is if people like you continue to have the faith that change isn't all bad, and "something's gotta give" for things to get better.
Just out of curiosity, what is the average size of your elementary school classes? Number of kids I mean.
Well, they really vary. My oldest is going to be in the 5th grade and she has or had around 20. My middle one is going into kindergarten and I think at last count only 7. But the average is I am guessing around 10-15. Does that sound about right?? Somebody else might have a better idea, but I think that is a good average. :angel:
I would say Angie is about right about the average size of the classes. I don't know what Moline had last year. But as for Severy the preschool total (Am and Pm) we had 13, Kindergarten had 10, 1st grade had about 15 or 16, 2nd had about 8, 3rd had about 8, 4th had around 20, 5th had about 8 and 6th I think had around 15. So it just varies depending on the year.
Quote from: Tobina on July 01, 2008, 03:52:16 PM
Thank-you, Angie. And Dan. For choosing to keep your kids in the school district, even with the recent uphevel in the system. I thank you because I don't have kids (yet) and when I eventually do, I hope to heck there is still a school district in tact in this county. And the only way there will be is if people like you continue to have the faith that change isn't all bad, and "something's gotta give" for things to get better.
Tobina .. when you ever do have kids.. I imagine that you're posts will have a bit more emotion attached to them.
It is easy for those who have never had that "mama and papa bear protective fight" in them yet.. to talk sane and level and be text book correct and always agreeing with the rules.
I realize as Danny stated..that sometimes you have to go by the rules.. but believe me.. I know my son.. and Danny will not just idly put Ashley on a bus to school without a pretty good fight. He writes a lot calmer than he is on this subject. ;)
This decision was made in an error haste in my opinion. It involves too many people's precious children to have been made without input and an advertised meeting to discuss the agenda. It will take everyone to stand together and fight for what they want if they want it to change. Sometimes you just can't 'go with the flo" because you think you need to always have "faith in change and others decisions." Sometimes..these kinds of decesions ISN'T the best thing for the ones who matter.. and I'm not talking about the dollar $ bill..
What matters is the "children".
Just my (http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/twocents.gif) worth.
Ok I know that I don't live there, but we are seriously considering moving there so I'd like to get some clarification.
I also read in an earlier post that the school hours were changed... what hours do the children attend school?
So here goes...
1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade kids from Howard will be put on a bus to go to Moline which is 9 miles away or 15 minutes, with the time it takes to pick up all the kids - you're looking at about a 30-40 minute bus ride. So if school starts at 7:55 (like ours does...) the kids will be picked up around 7:15 -7:25. If they are released at 2:55 (ours is) then that puts them back on your porch at 3:25-3:35.
4th, 5th, and 6th grade kids from Howard will be put on a bus to go to Severy which is 12.5 miles away or 18 minutes, with the time it takes to pick up all the kids - you're looking at about a 35-45 minute bus ride. So with school starting at 7:55, the kids will be picked up around 7:10-7:20, and if released at 2:55 - they'll arrive on your porch at 3:30-3:40.
Am I understanding that correctly?
Give or take, I think you are fairly close, except school lets out at 330. We have quite a few days off during the year so the days are a bit longer. Ashley gets on the bus at 720 or so and gets off at 4.
Ashley... Is that the girl in your picture? What grade will she be in? She looks about the same age as my youngest who will be in Kindergarten. Which school houses the Kindergarten?
Ashley is 6 going on 14....lol
She will be in 1st grade and just got out of kindergarten in Moline. She loved it, what a great experience for a child as well as parent. To have a kid that loves school so much they dread summer!!! She is doing ok with summer now that we can go swimming and such!!!
Samantha,
School starts at 8:00. Preschool starts at 7:50 because we need to have the right amount of hrs. for Am and Pm. School gets out at 3:30.
All children from Moline, Howard, Severy etc. will be sent to Moline if they are 1st through 3rd. All children from Moline, Howard, Severy, etc will be sent to Severy if they are 4th through 6th. Both schools will have a preschool and a Kindergarten.
Teresa; in any of my posts I have never said I agree or disagree with the decision made. I have actually been trying to fact-find and even play devil's advocate to come up with better ideas and promote interesting discussion. I'm a little like Dan; I mask my emotions well on this subject. I have high emotions about the subject; but not because I don't have kids... but because of what this means for the entire county and the school system in the future. I don't know what the right or wrong answer is. I do know that the way the board went about this decision is not in anyone's best interest. And it irks me to think that people are judging each other and saying their opinion doesn't matter because they don't have kids, when really, everyone should be thinking about the FUTURE of the school system... and ultimately, the county! If the option was given to make this change or close the schools in 5 years, I bet this conversation would be a lot different. I have never suggested that anyone "go with the flo", and the quote you made about having "faith in change and others decision" was completely incorrect. My quote was "have faith that change isn't all bad". I didn't say "give up hope". I didn't say "the decision was right and everyone should roll over and take it". I stated facts; "something's gotta give". The facts are: too many teachers quit/retired, and they can't get any teachers hired for multiple reasons (low pay, not enough time). Maybe the knee-jerk decision was bad (or just done in a bad way), but SOMETHING different has to be done... quickly! I don't have the answers. You don't have the answers. But everyone in the county is affected and is entitled to their opinions... regardless of their child-bearing status.
How's that for emotion?! >:(
Quote from: Tobina on July 02, 2008, 08:59:40 AM
How's that for emotion?! >:(
Pretty good actually :o
I really am calm about the subject because I feel in the long run that the facts and economics of the situation will bring itself to the correct coarse of action on the subject. I feel like interjecting emotion into this decision is not a good way to come to the
BEST decision for the community now and the future.
If cost is the issue here (and we all know it is). I seriously think that a cost analysis should be run using two models. This will piss some people off, but that is going to happen no matter what you do, so that can't be helped.
Analysis One: A side by side comparison of the efficiency of cost to operate each school. We obviously do not have enough kids or teachers to have two schools. You then look at what it would take to consolidate into the most efficient and cost effective school and the costs involved with that. You would obviously need additional staff at the school to handle the additional kids, but would obviously lose some kids that would bus to closer schools if one closed. Keeping in mind if you close Moline, you are going to lose those older kids anyway under the current restructure and vise versa.
Analysis Two: Cost savings in building a new consolidated school that would be much more efficient to operate, not lose any kids, and possibly attract new students/teachers to the area(Cough Cough Samantha Cough Cough!!!!)
I don't like the current idea. I will be honest that I cannot see the methodology of what it accomplishes. As Angie and many others with several children have stated, it is a nightmare already when there are appointments, illness and all the activities when the kids are at the same school. I am generally very open to FACTS. There are no FACTS that support the cost effectiveness of this new plan, and cost is the problem. At least the long term problem. A teacher shortage is a short term problem and probably was somewhat avoidable with some earlier action. Still both are problems...
I totally sympathize with the mental gymnastics you all are going through. We had a different, but similar problem here years ago, the out come of which still hurts today. We had court ordered busing for mandatory desegregation. It fought through the court system for years. But in the meantime, the school districts were dismantled so part of Wilmington, mostly black, was divided up among the 4 county districts. That created long bus rides for all kids, who ended up going to at least least 4 schools during their school life. Newark shouldn't have been included as we are a separate place, with our own black and international population. We lost. So even our black kids were bussed to Wilmington part of the time. Go figure. The kids adjusted pretty quickly, but the parents were livid. Parental participation dropped off, new private schools were started, people moved away...sound familiar?. The poor teachers had a terrible time. Transportation costs,...well, you know. Now they are trying to slowly undo the whole thing and get the kids back to their neighborhood schools, at least for elementary years. Very painful.
Wow Dan, you might want to get that cough looked at!! hehehe If we decide not to join the community, I can assure you the school issues you're having won't be a huge factor in our decision.
Compared to our every day routine here, The kids and I leave the house at 6:10am every morning, drive to town - drop off kids at daycare who then shuttles them to school and picks them up at 3:00pm during the school year. I go into work at 7am and work until 4pm, drive back to the town they are in and pick them up at 4:30pm then we drive to the town we live in - arriving home around 5:00-5:15pm. I drive at least 70 miles a day, just commuting from home to school to work to school to home.
So if we move there, and the kids are picked up from the house at 7:15am and dropped back off at 4:00pm, thats 2 hours more per day that they will get to spend at home, not to mention the $50 plus dollars worth gas I'll be saving weekly by letting the bus do the driving. We don't have a bus that comes by our house, and there aren't any other school kids that are in our area that would be able to carpool.
Also a huge selling point is the size of the classes. I think someone said 14 3rd graders earlier? Thats with both schools combined?
Our current elementary school has 5 (yes 5) 3rd grade classes each with 24-25 students. So thats about 125 3rd grade students, just at our elementary. Then when they get to 6th grade, our school merges with 2 other area schools for junior high and high school, which adds about another 125 from each school. So your looking at a graduating class of 375 kids. Thats about how large my graduating class was also, and I remember it being total chaos. The noise in the hallways at the high school (9-12th grade 375*4=1500 kids) is deafening, and most teachers walk around oblivious to anything that isn't thrown right in front of them.
Wow....
My graduating class had 38 I am pretty sure ??? (Been awile!!)
::) ::) ::) "go with the flo" has been used several times. How did I get into this discussion ??? ??? :-\ Not that I don't have my idea's - it's just that I have done no "indepth" searching so don't feel I can contribute. :D :D Just joking, of course. ;D ;D
For you good people who are using the phrase, "go with the "flo"", the word is spelled "flow". It seems to be popular to drop letters from words, but it makes for difficult reading for some. I am even guilty of it and have tried to break the habit. I want to be read, not skipped over, because it takes too long to figure out what I am saying.
Aw c'mon ... going with Flo sounds like a lot of fun to me.
hahahahahaha I vote with Rudy~~`A lot of things that Flo has posted sounds like a heck of a good time to me.
Let's saddle up, Rudy, and get to Flo's before everyone else, so we can be at the front of the flow lol lol lol
I'll probably go with Flo also; especially if she's buyin'! Fudge Monkey anyone? Watch out for the flow!! ;)
Now you've got it. We will go with the flow and go with Flo to get a Fudge Monkey
Quote from: Tobina on July 02, 2008, 08:59:40 AM
How's that for emotion?! >:(
Dang good .. ;D
Glad to see you have a little knee jerk in ya'...
I'm proud of you.. ;)
When I voice my opinion.. I usually am very emotional.. but actually when it is time to go into a meeting and debate and talk turkey..
I am very calm .. have all my facts , presenting them in a way that I know will have positive effects..........and.......................
I'm still emotional.. LOL
~~And I am sorry for my words to you and apologize for sounding so harsh. Somedays my patience with "everything "and everybody" is a bit stretched. :-\
Teresa; funny that this forum portrays people differently than they are in person! I could hear the laughs from people who know me when I read "glad to see you have a little knee jerk in ya'" and the bit about emotion. Everyone who knows me in person knows I can knock teeth out with my knee jerks and emotion! It's being in my position as a Help Desk manager and teaching people how to use computers and working directly with customers that has taught me how to seem calm and contained over e-mail. When really, I'm sitting here at my computer beating on my desk, pacing around the house, and stress eating! ;D
Anyway, I've come to confess. After all my posts on this thread and being so involved in the conversation on this topic, I will be unable to attend the meeting Thursday night! I will be coaching the HS summer league volleyball teams in Fredonia that night, and we have games at 6, 7, and 8. I imagine things will still be going strong when I get back to town around 9:30, though? I had only planned on sitting back and taking it all in, anyway. I feel I've already said my piece here and because I don't have kids, don't feel like I have too much to say at the meeting, anyway. I do hope the meeting is productive, and I'm sure this post will be re-opened late Thursday or bright and early on Friday with all the information from the meeting. Good luck, everyone!
Quote from: Tobina on July 08, 2008, 12:48:42 PM
I had only planned on sitting back and taking it all in, anyway. I feel I've already said my piece here and because I don't have kids, don't feel like I have too much to say at the meeting, anyway.
Tobina, I think that is the wrong attitude. I don't have children at home either, but what affects the schools affects the towns. We
ALL elect the school board members, not just those with children in the school district. Therefore, everyone is involved in this decision. Just my opinion and had to state it.
I plan to attend the meeting and write a story which will be posted on the taylornews.org website early the next morning --- maybe even that night if I get back in time.
Rudy
Just have a few more cups of strong hot coffee Rudy, and you will be pounding out the "extra extra.. read all about it" paper by day break.. LOL
I know, Flo, but where were you earlier in this thread when everyone was telling me to keep my opinions to myself b/c I DON'T have kids???
Again, everyone reading this probably laughed at my comment, b/c it's rare I keep my opinions to myself. (That's why I LOVE this forum! You have no choice! Hehehehehehehehe! :angel: )
ahhh.. correction.... I NEVER said to keep your opinion to yourself.
what I said was.................
Tobina .. when you ever do have kids.. I imagine that you're posts will have a bit more emotion attached to them.
It is easy for those who have never had that "mama and papa bear protective fight" in them yet.. to talk sane and level and be text book correct and always agreeing with the rules.
THAT is what I said.
( This is how ugly rumors gets started.. ;))
I am with Flo on this one. Everyone needs to attend. This school affects everyone in each and every town around it. We do elect the school board members and it is are responsibilty to see that they do there job. We pay the taxes that support the school. You are everyone in this community needs to attend, Tobina. I know you have other important things to do, that is understandable. I'll forgive you this time!!! ;) ;) But this is a meeting that I will not miss. I am getting more upset as the time comes near. I have to tell you guys something. When I lost my job a few years back, I was angry and upset. I have gotten over that. But the one thing that hasn't changed in this school district is the school board. Do you want to know why? They have minds of their own. They can make decisions on their own. All that the superindent is supposed to do is give them information. In this case, what kind of information did Mr. Moore give the board members to make such a decision. We lost 4 teachers. We are low on funds and this is what I want to see happen. I think that is the kind of information that was handed to the members. The only one that went out on a limb for this community is Mr. Wolfe. He knew in his heart that this plan was not going to save us money. I also feel that this is a very BIG decision that was not really thought about enough. They didn't spend enough time on weighing the pros and cons. If I am going to spend 1,000 of dollars on something, I myself would really consider the pros and cons of it. They are messing with alot, and I mean alot, of peoples lives. The most important being the children that this effects.
I also believe that if you are going to fix a problem fix it right. Do you honestly think that this is going to fix the problem of low enrollment and no money?? I don't. I think there were other options that could have been thought about, brought to the community, and then the board make a decision. They did it behind EVERYONE'S back, even their employees. I think they should have at least included the teachers in the decision that they made. But no!!
Ok, I am done putting in my two cents. I am very passionate about this subject. I loved teaching, I love my kids, and I want the best education that they can get. But I am here to tell you, I am seriously thinking of pullling my kids, too! I have the means to home school. Do I really want my kids to go to this, yes!! But sending my kids two different ways is not an easy option for me. I have to think about their well being and also what is best for me, too!!!
I hope to see everyone out there tomorrow night!!! Don't worry I won't yell to loud!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: (I am just joking!!!!)
Angie, when the district lost you as a teacher, I'm glad that the kids gained you as an advocate. Rob Wolfe is one of the finest people I know...he votes the way that he knows his constituents think...and his ability to stand on his own stands him head and shoulders above the rest. I've never seen him just go along with the crowd because it's easier than raising waves! I SO do not envy those of you who are faced with this change that is undeniably coming in your future.
Ahh, I wasn't directing my comment particularly at you, Teresa. ::) (See that's what happens when I get too emotional and post too quickly.) Just teasing Flo, anyway, about coming to my rescue too late! ;)
Thanks for the "hall pass", Angie. I really would have liked to go, but I'm actually enabling the parents of the volleyball girls to be able to attend, since I'll be the responsible adult in charge at the games. I really enjoy doing this volleyball in the summer for the girls; I think everyone will be amazed at the team this year! I'm getting excited for the season; as are the girls!
Another "devil's advocate" question here... has anyone talked to any of the school board members about their decision now? Do they feel betrayed/misled by the information they were given? Do they regret their quick decision? Or are they standing behind it?
Well here goes my 2 cents or 5 depending... I personally have only talked to Rob W about the decision and I appreciate him going against the grain... that is tough. I too feel like the decision was made too hasty...My question is why was a special meeting not called immediately after the 3-4 teachers resigned at Severy. Why was the public not informed that this was to be on the agenda? Why was a decision of this magnitude ever decided on in one session. I have talked with 2 other public office holders and both have made that point. Why was teachers' input not sought? What is also sad is that I don't feel like most teachers will stand up and discuss this at the public meeting b/c they fear losing their job - that is sad - b/c they are the ones in the day-to-day trenches. We the general public do not have a clue what goes on in those school building. I am not a big fan of Mr. Moore's either. (am probably risking my HS Vball job for that comment) I think he did and does a fantastic job as a special ed director, but not as supt. Through the last year, I have witnessed 1st hand, some of the decisions he has made, and have heard from reliable sources about some of the others. I don't feel he is community-minded or in touch with the students. BUT is he the whole problem - NO! We have a climate and attitude that needs changing - why do we still have 2 school dist, 5 alumni assn (not one of which is West Elk). My fear is that we are no longer fighting for our towns (Severy, Moline, Howard, Grenola, Elk Falls) We are fighting for West Elk. Why was a decision not made after the 2006 public meeting - we have had a declining enrollment since the mid 90's.
Okay - now what can we do - I definitely think EVERYONE (but Tobina - she needs to keep my Vball girls going) NEEDS TO BE AT THE MEETING - it is about the future of Elk County and surrounding areas. Some ideas floating around.... a) Keep both elem open, move 6th to Howard and move towards a consolidated campus.... b) move in portable classrooms at Howard, move both elem. schools there and move towards a permanent consolidated campus. c) Keep both elem. open and do combo classrooms and move towards a permanent consolidated campus.... these are just a few... I know these are not pleasant solutions, but we are going to nickle and dime ourselves to death otherwise. If you look at area schools our size, they do not have all the campuses we have, hence high dollar administrators and personnel. Elk Valley for example, 1A (we are currently 2A) has one man who does supt, HS prin, JR prin, and Elem prin. But he can walk from one buildling to the next in mere minutes. I do agree we need an adm in each building given the distance, but that is what is costing us money. I realize we have just spent a lot of money on those 2 elem school - but like you do when you are in business for yourself - if you have a piece of equipment or a vehicle that you have overalled and overalled, at some point, you just have to bite the bullet and start over.
I do appreciate those parents with kids in our system that have chosen to keep them here regardless of the decision. I do appreciate our school board members for taking on being a board member - it is not easy being an elected official. I do appreciate our teachers and staff for trying to give our kids the best education possible. But why not use all of these talented people and put our heads TOGETHER to find the best solution for the long term - not another band-aid that keeps falling off.
I too am afraid that this meeting could be emotionally filled. I hope that a plan of action has been developed and that everyone (myself included) can maintain an open mind to change - as it is coming. You are either changing or you are dead - YOUR CHOICE - I definitely want the first.
Liz, I loved reading your thoughtful approaches to this problem. What I found to be very interesting, was that back in the 70's when the discussions concering building the new high school were going on, your Mom was a powerful force in advocating for new building. (That is if I am remembering correctly who your Mom was) Sounds like you will be a powerful and knowledgable force as well. :-)
Dale - not sure if it was my mom or someone else - who do you think my mom is? I do know my dad was on the board in the 70s when they consolidated - and there are still some who "hate" him for that. So no - it is not an easy decision and will have life changing effects, but no decision is worse in my opinion.
These are some wonderful ideas Liz. As for the first one moving 6th to Jr. High, there are many districts in our area that have a "middle school" that includes 6th, 7th, and 8th grades. I know our community will come together to help make the best decisions for West Elk.
Liz - I haven't been back in Elk County in 20 years... so if I am totally off-base here, I apologize. I was "thinking" that you are the daughter of Barbara Perkins.
These are great ideas Liz. I am like you about the teachers. They always put them in a rock and hard place, though. I think that they should be able to go to the meeting and voice their opinions, besides the kids and the parents it also affects them!! Well, said Liz!!
Very good points Liz.. Now if they will just give you the floor time to voice them and I hope you "make them" answer to your questions because they are certainly valid enough.
Dale - Good memory. Thanks Angie - I think most of them will be there, but few will speak their mind and I don't know that I blame them if I was dependent on it for my job. Teresa - I am not going with a prepared speech - but will go with an open mind.
You go, girl! You always were a mover and a shaker in Elk County...as is evidenced by all of your admirers. :-)
Don't forget the woman that lived on the corner of Cherry and Washington --- I'm still a fan of yours, little girl.
Hang tough, everyone, the board must reckon with the tax paying public.
Jo
Ok, Everyone! Tonight is the big Night-FINALLY!!! I can't wait to here all the excuses just pouring out of their mouths up there on stage!!!!!
Having been on some committees dealing with such things, keep in mind that first meetings tend to degenerate into gripe sessions. (not that you don't have just cause.) Please have your concerns, questions and possible solutions written down right at hand and don't repeat yourselves. Good luck to you all!
Diane, I am really anxious to hear how that meeting goes. It will be tough for both sides. The School Board has a tough situation to deal with. Trying to keep the schools going for a declining enrollment. and keep the tax base with in reason as well. They are in kind of a loose-loose situation.
Frank
I too am extremely concerned. It's very sad.
It is tough for me when I go home and see the decline in the houses that are empty, the old grade school that I attened for 8 years in total ruin, the old Howard National Bank Building in such bad care. If the economy in this country continues to deteriorate, living in the Rural areas will be better than in the cities. People in the rural areas will have Gardens, Chickens for eggs, milk cow and less crime to deal with.
Frank
Oh I hope everything goes okay, but I know there will be some heated disscussions going on. I really hope someone posts some info on here tonight. Me being a teacher really wishes I could have been there, but I am in NY visiting family. So it has been killing me not knowing what is going on.
It is 9:30 and I am wondering if the meeting is still in progress. I really hope someone shares with us tonight and I hope some good comes out of the meeting.
Hi Laura, I did not go to the meeting tonight, Ron went so hopefully he will give me the full rundown before I have to leave for the Jim Fay workshop in the a.m.. I hope that it is a productive meeting. Nichelle
I got home about an hour ago, the meeting went well with the board members remaining united but willing to listen also. It must be disheartening to try to keep this thing going with a shrinking enrollment and tax base also. I do think however that the essential decision will remain with some modifications. For the most part, people remained respectful and to the point. It seemed as though it was the Severy folks who were the most upset IMO. Our Angie made a very good showing for herself, making some good points. It looks like Rudy will be having a write-up; I saw pictures being taken.
More people from the rest the world should be showing more interest in our school situation. We have been losing enrollment for 12 of 15 years. I am from Howard and have been in favor of eliminating the 4 campus system for about 21 years. The stupidest thing, besides why we had the National Guard build a football field, I can remember is graduating from West Elk High School and having to choose between Moline or Howard alumni. We have been West Elk since someone got half a clue in the early seventies and consolidated the Grenola, Severy, Moline, Elk Falls, and Howard Schools. They didn't do it because it would be better for the towns they did it to keep a viable school system functioning. I think that the selfish bickering about not losing my school has to be changed to how can we make our school system better. It has been long enough. All the kids in the district are within 25 miles of Howard. Who has ever taken there kids for a 25 mile trip to McDonalds or the dreaded "w" store. There should be one school. One building and one set of problems. Half the bus diesel would fund alot of teacher raises.
Yes, Severy will feel alienated and move to the path of the tornado. But look what happened to Greensburg when they brought in a tornado. Moline will threaten to go to Lion or Bluedevil land but they will come back.
West Elk schools has some of the best teachers in the state. I think that being in the top 5% of any thing is worth bragging about and Severy's school was last year.
PEP I agree with ya - I was a little discouraged that the auditorium was not packed. For the most part, people contained their emotion. Bert tried to smooth us over with a 30 min presentation on the whys and the numbers, which everyone got in a packet. However, I didn't see any numbers on transportation cost, building cost, additional adm staff. He gave what the cost savings would be to go to a 4 day week - 50K which is comprised of staff salary and transp. Marty kept hounding on energy costs and how that is hurting our enrollment - the question there that wasn't asked is how much would be saved in a one campus school instead of shuttling kids between all the schools. Gina W. made the suggestion about moving the 6th grade to Howard - the board was relatively favorable to that idea. My question - or one of them... was would or could this decision be reversed before Aug 20 2008 when school starts... Roxanne Walker was the only one who spoke up saying she would like to revisit it next Monday (next board meeting)- I really think we need people at the board meetings. The question was asked about why we waited til June to make a decision - did not get a good answer on that one. Nor why we don't have a long term plan - except that the board is trying very hard to keep the elem. schools open. What is always hard to guage at a public meeting - is how does the quiet majority think or vote. I didn't realize that a bond issue has to be approved by the state first before we can even vote on it.
The board and Bert really kept bragging on the quality of education our students are getting - however we can't afford to give them raises... another question that remains unasked is why did Bert get a 6.5% raise, Mike McLean and Deb Stange a 4% and other numerous other - some quite large in the district office building... but our teachers are still trying to get $1000 on the base....We used to be the middle of the pay scale - now we are near the bottom.
Another interesting question or comment - is that this pilot is being proposed that no kid will be picked up earlier....or that is what I thought I heard. Steve Walker questioned that thought process. They really don't know what the transportation cost will be with the pilot plan and probably won't know til it starts.
One comment was made about how much money we have spent on the elem schools and how nice they are now.... my own comment (kept silent) is move on... sometimes we remodel a house and remodel a house and by the end we would have been better off to build a new one.... Just move on... money already spent.
It is too bad our fathers when consolidating and building a school couldn't have picked a spot out in the middle of a pasture so no town would be associated with this issue...
Pep couldn't have said it better myself. I am not trying to step on any toes, but come on it's are school. You are so right about building the one building. I am from Severy. I went to school at Severy all my life and graduated from West Elk. I don't want to see either town lose it's school. But, being a rancher and farmers wife, you can't predict the future. You have to be flexible. If we want to save our school system, we must FIX the problem not BAND AID it. I just have this feeling that we are not going to get a great deal of inclining enrollment in the next five years. Not that our communities are terrible, it's because the fuel cost is costing each and every family around the world. Why would you want to spend $500.00 to $1000.00 on fuel if you didn't have to to get to your job. I personally would never leave this community. I love it, but I have ties to it. Something to keep me here. My job is in childcare. I am worried, too. When we have a declining enrollement it effects everyone.
Pep you made a good point about Emily's class. I have heard a couple of kids from that class that are excited about this. I would be too. Having 5 to 7 kids and going up to 16!!
There was lots of good suggestions out there last night. Some of them are: move 6th grade to West Elk making it a middle school with 6, 7, and 8. You would get rid of 2 of the positions and could keep both schools. This is a very good idea, much better then the one that the board has voted on. But that is only masking the problem.
I commend each and every person that attended the meeting last night. You made it know that you are there for this school, for the children, and the communities. There was a lot of good ideas put forth to the board, but the ball is now in there court. We now have to sit and wait to see what the decision will be.
It sounds like you all did very well last night with a very hot button topic. The bottom line is good education for all your children. I know you want to know more and the board heard some good ideas from you. When does the board have to make their final decision? I know school time isn't really that far off, if they have to move furniture and libraries etc. and make up new bus routes. There is a lot more to do than just move the kids. When our system was redone, some of our buildings even had to retrofit the bathrooms and water fountains because they were the wrong size for the age of the kids moving in! I thought the portable classroom idea was a good one also. I worked in one for a number of years and it was fine. At the time it was the only room that had air conditioning! :laugh: For a time we had a hub system for transportation. The buses picked up kids, went to a "hub" in a parking lot, some of the kids changed busses and went on to their intended schools. It sounded weird, but worked rather well and supposedly saved fuel. Hang in there friends!
That's the way the bus system is here. there are several grade schools but only one high school, the grade school in rocky which is mine goes to 8th grade and then they go to anderson for 9th on up. there are grade schools in white rock, anderson, pineville, southwest city, and jane i think. Then they have middle school and high school at Anderson. I think rocky is the only one that goes to 8 the others go to six and then go to the middle school. We are bout 18 miles east of Anderson tho and the school district goes another 15 miles or so east so it's a huge district.
West Elk parents voice opinions
at Thursday night public forum
Approximately 225 school patrons attended Thursday night's public forum hosted by the USD 282 school board and many expressed concerns over a plan to split the elementary schools when school starts in August.
The plan, called a "pilot project" by board members and Supt. Bert Moore, calls for grades 1-3 to attend classes at Moline and grades 4-6 would attend Severy Elementary School.
Moore spent the first 30 minutes giving facts and figures which led to the board's decision at its June 9 meeting, saying the resignation of three teachers on May 15 left the board with crucial decisions to make, considering that it is difficult to recruit new teachers to come to rural schools.
"There are more than 1,000 open teaching positions across the state right now," said Moore. "They can make $42,000 in their first year at Wichita and we're only able to pay a base salary of $28,500. It is a problem faced by all small schools, especially those located in areas far away from metropolitan areas."
Moore said the board had several options at their June 9 meeting:
• Go to a 4-day school day which could save around $55,000 per year. But this would be assuming that four new teachers would be quickly recruited for the fall semester.
• Completely close one of the elementary schools, making the remaining school the attendance center for grades K-6.
• Raising taxes (Local Option Budget) to accommodate costs incurred with higher fuel costs, etc., and keeping both Severy and Moline schools in full operation --- again, assuming that four new teachers could be recruited.
• Keeping both Moline and Severy campuses open but splitting them into the one-year pilot proposal --- three grades in Moline, three grades in Severy.
The board felt compelled to take action immediately because of the time issue, and the decision was made to adopt the split-elementary school proposal.
Board members listened and took notes Thursday night, interacting with audience members as everyone tried to reach some type of consensus. The demeanor was quite congenial even though many in the audience spoke with passion about keeping all three school campuses in full operation.
Several parents told about their children and the long bus rides which would result in splitting the schools.
Many also objected to a proposed change in names for the Severy and Moline schools. Moore said the board planned to rename the schools as follows: "West Elk Elementary School - Moline" and "West Elk Elementary School - Severy."
That proposed change seem almost as upsetting to some as the pilot program itself. Several board members indicated they would like to revisit the name change idea.
Patrons from Severy, Moline, Grenola, Howard and the rural areas in between asked questions and gave their opinions during the meeting which board president Marty Taliaferro announced (at the beginning of the meeting) would be concluded by 9:30 p.m. It appeared that everyone who wanted to speak got that opportunity.
There was applause several times after a member of the audience spoke, but opinions were varied and there was no specific recommendation to resolve the issue of declining enrollment, teacher vacancies and considerably less funding than was available in the the past and current budget years.
It appeared that board members and Moore were open to tweaking the pilot project after several in the audience, including two teachers, suggested that a combined sixth grade class could be moved to the Howard campus, thereby eliminating one teacher position, and hopefully, allowing both elementary schools to continue operating somewhat as they have in the past.
Other than that, the only suggestion that seemed to interest many audience members was going to a four-day school day and utilizing those savings to keep both Moline and Severy intact as they currently are operating,
A key point that Taliaferro emphasized was the continuing drop in enrollment, which he believes to be a direct result of the high price of fuel.
"People are having to move in order to drive shorter distances to work," he said. "I don't see that situation getting better in the next year or two."
Board members said they were shocked when informed about the nose dive in enrollment, especially since they had hoped that this might be a turn-around year for enrollment.
Moore said the enrollment last March was 370, then 340 in May. "We're now preparing a budget based upon an enrollment of 328 students," he said.
At meeting's end, Taliaferro said the board would hold a retreat and work session in August to discuss the outcome of the public forum, and consider any written comments that might be forthcoming to board members.
Action to redo any part of the pilot program could be taken at the Aug. 11 regular board meeting, but that would be only a few days before the beginning of classes.
At this point, the June 9 "pilot" decision remains the policy of the district.
Thanks Rudy! I wonder ...can there be any local incentives to lure some teachers to the area? Free housing? Relief from taxes? A free car? Gas card? Let the teachers ride the busses with the kids? I'd be worried about filling those positions! Lure a few teachers out of retirement for a year or so?? Pay them their retirement plus the base? I'm sure Wichita has a higher cost of living which is why they pay more too.
OK, thanks for all the information on here today, guys! The volleyball girls did EXCELLENT last night; winning 4 of the 5 games. Sr/Jr team played 3 and won 2, and the Soph/Fresh team played 2 and won both! We were coming back to town around 10 pm and saw all the traffic, so I didn't even bother going to the meeting, as I figured it was over. I had hoped that all the parents went to the meeting, as we had only 2 fans in the stands (a set of grandparents)!
After reading Rudy's article... my first response is... ??? What the ^&**? Why are people arguing about the NAME of the SCHOOL when there is such a bigger problem out there?!?! I can't believe it. That is totally irrelevant here; I could care less if the school was named the Bert Moore grade school-1 and the Bert Moore grade school-2 if it meant they actually solved the problem at hand!
After listening to last nights forum and the response and suggestions made by several people, I am all the more convinced that we as a district need to move to a one grade school district. It is only then that the district will survive and be able to get itself back to a desirable payscale for teachers. Yes, we have great teachers at our school, and they are doing an excellent job as indicated by the scores on state tests. But how long will they be able to stay here based on the salaries they are currently making at West Elk. I completely understand the feelings of those in Severy and Moline. I know how proud they are to have their grade school. But this pride may ultimately be the end of West Elk.
I truly think that all the issues that go with "pilot program" are not at all beneficial to our students nor our financial situation. Obviously, the weren't able to tell us how much more the bussing would cost, or the time students would spend on the bus. Yes, it would save 3 teaching positions; but if we sent the 6th grade to join the junior high and combined a 3rd/4th classroom that would also save 3 teaching positions. Plus there would not be the issue of bussing all around the county. This could be the "pilot program" and I do believe it would make much better sense. The combination of the 3rd/4th grade classes in Moline would be less than 20 students, quite manageable. And it could be done until next year when better prospects for teaching applicants would be available. I truly feel this could be a short term fix, until our district decides to pursue a unified one grade school district.
A third/fourth split with less than 20 kids? It's more work for the teacher, but it sure can be done. I did a third/fourth split for several years in that portable, 29 kids, with a teacher's aide. More work for me, but we did alright. The teacher's aide made a huge difference.
Was the 3rd/4th split something that was brought up? And are they really going to wait till the August board meeting to decide what to do? They have to move classrooms, etc. and that won't leave any time to do anythign.
I really hate to get involved with this, however here goes. Most of these ideas only put a band aid on the problem that is fixing to become a situation that requires major surgery. Enrollment is on the decline and not likely to get any better in the future, period! It's a fact folks. There is no work, or at least not any work that you can raise a family at todays' costs. No matter how friendly, congenial, or beautiful the area is, it doesn't change this fact. There is just no economic basis for keeping these schools open or for building another that is centrally located. A shrinking enrollment and exploding expenses marks the closure for even a centrally located campus like West Elk. I feel like that is why the board is not pushing for the building of a new grade school; the writing is on the wall and is sad but we must read it and understand what is going to happen whether we like it or not. :'( :'(
Ok, we don't want to lose are school district. I personally won't be moving my kids anywhere. I believe that they get a great education and won't get it anywhere else. That is my opinion. I just worry it was because of all the let's save our schools last time that put us in this spot. If we would have been truly working towards a solution at the last meeting we wouldn't be in this place so soon.
I don't know but I have to say, I had a hard time sleeping last night worry about the situation. I don't like the school change. I stated last night, I don't want to but I will consider home school if I have to. I like the public education system here right now. I believe that my children need the social skills that they get from school. But I just don't like the idea of having my children in 2 different places. WE all know that they will end up at Howard for Jr/Sr High school.
I think everyone needs to lift this situation up to the Lord and pray about it ALOT and ask him to help it!!!!
I understand where you are coming from Angie, but consider that in a few years your children will be in different schools anyway? You may even have a younger one by then, who knows? The loss of a grade school in either town is devastating to the community, and unless there is a tremendous turn around in this local economy, those schools are finished. Not many tax bases can support a ten or less student to teacher ratio; and this district offers very low salary. If you had a sought after commodity wouldn't you want to market it in a locale that wanted to pay for it? Of course you would, and I cannot blame the teachers for not wanting to stay in what looks to them to be a dead-end job. I hope the community as a whole can work with the board and come up with what is best for the community as a whole. By the way, I thought you conducted yourself very well last night, and made a lot of people think!
I am wondering why the three teachers left all at once. The district can do exit interviews and try to find out. There may be other factors than pay. If possible then the district can try to address those things.
:P I was at a local forum at the P Ranch/bar/lake/camp site over the 4th of July and one of the ideas thrown out was to build a new metal building to house the VoAg/Woods/Arts Departments apart from the High School. Then demo the ag shop and retool to accommodate class rooms. You would be adjacent to the high school cafeteria and could build a multipurpose room as part of the ag shop. No more busing to the grade schools for practice, no more busing to the fair barn for practice. Shoot while we are building lets put a dome over the swimming pool to have the only High School swim team East of the Flint Hills.
Longton, Sedan, Bluestem, Eureka, and Dexter don't even have a chance. They will be practicing in farm ponds.
I have never seen a farm shop without a horse tank or basketball goal attached to it so it would not have a problem with local zoning....
If you made it large enough and attached to the existing ag barn it could be used as a replacement for the aging fair barn that doesn't have air conditioning or 365 day usage.
Currently we are talking about needing class rooms for 162 grade school students. That is only 7 class rooms of 25. or one classroom for each of the K-6. Even building at current building standards it seems that you could build cheaper than we are spending to bus. It would take a bond issue or an influx of funding(ie wind farm). I would love to pay more taxes if it meant that WE was the one benefiting. That is WEST ELK. Not Howard. Not Moline, Not Severy... I want a new slogan let's get West Elk Connected...
;D I want to vent some more. I learned math in the 3rd grade lets process some data.
Gas is $4. Diesel is $4.87
Every dollar we spend to bus students gets them about 3/4 of a mile down the road.
Concrete is $100 dollars a yard...
If we spent the gas money that we are busing, routing, shuttling, and atheleticing on a more efficient school we could get our students alot farther down the road.
A new school is needed and can be financially justified by just increasing the amount of students in the district.
A remodel can be effective even if we lose more students. Efficiency is efficiency. A new structure could have higher efficient ground source heating & cooling, new plumbing fixtures use less water, more insulation means less money wasted, better communications less time wasted, better use of technology less staff wasted, closer communication with district office less red tape, less commuting, larger staff pool on site for emergency situations, and a feather in the cap of the board.
What is the down side? CHANGE.
Teresa, I need some applauding hands here.
Patrick, bravo, boy. You have just said what I have been thinking. CHANGE is what we need. I can't see any reason why the whole facility shouldn't be centralized. But it will take time and money. None of us should hold back because of the cost. If an old widow on a fixed income is willing to pay more in taxes to keep our school in Elk County, why shouldn't you people who are working and whose children would benefit be willing to do the same?
I survived on change. Three schools in the first two years of my schooling life and I wasn't changing schools with my friends. I was leaving them all behind. CHANGE isn't going to hurt the children. Children are adventurous. They like change. So it might be inconvenient for parents, but isn't that what being a parent is, inconvenient?
We lived through the change of consolidating the districts. When the school boards were forced to consolidate Severy and Howard you would have thought the world was going to come to an end. What I saw was more opportunity for our students. Actually when the new high school was built, they should have built a new grade school, too.
Well said Wilma and Patrick, I am a taxpayer in the district and certainly wouldn't object to a tax increase for the schools. I may soon own additional prioperty in the District and do not mind some additional taxes for the School District. I think the schools are imperative to the area and to the Families. I feel that I got a good Educational Foundation in the Howard Schools and have always been proud of being a Howard High Grad.
Frank
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/bravo.gif)
Hats off to you Patrick..
( I have heard several people in my family say somewhat the same thing.. )
And being in the "business" of construction...You DO know what you are talking about as building and construction work and costs goes.
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/congra.gif)
You're hired! ;D
I'll stay out of the issue itself since I live elsewhere, but I'm so proud of everyone for the way you are discussing this issue and using common sense to do so. I'm also impressed with folks like Frank and Wilma, both senior citizens, who are in support of change when it is for the good of the community.
I sat in the auditorium last Thursday night in total awe of the people who spoke. I didn't once hear an ignorant statement made. I heard no personal put-downs. And I sensed a common desire to keep moving forward even in the wake of discouragement.
You're all super friends of the school system, and I'm sure a resolution is in the making.
Keep Konnected!
That is the big idea that I have heard around town, too. My husband seems to think this is the way to go, too Patrick. You know I don't think any of the children mind the change, it's not that I am totally. I just don't think we are actually saving any money this way. ;)
Are they going to discuss the change, and even decide what is gong to happen at the board meeting tonight? I would think they would have to because the next board meeting is August 11th (if I am correct) and for teachers work starts the 15th. So I would think we would need to know what is going to happen to our schools.
I'll be at the board meeting tonight - anyone care to join me? ???
nothing really bother's me but it may bother a 21yr. old that lives in severy with a 1st grader(just a demonstration)
that might bother somebody but i mean can the board change thier mind like that ??? :o i know it upet's allot of people but can they just make that huge dicision and decide that they dont like it and change ??? and ps i like the "putting the dome over the pool" idea nobody would have a chance with our team :o hehehehehehehehehehe ;D
I would go to the meeting tonight if I was there. But I know of a few people that are going to try to get there. Yes the board can make that decision and then change their minds. They have heard some wonderful solutions and they can use one of those or not if they want to.
Patrick, you have the wisdom of your Grandfather, and apparently the same type of respect. Your Grandfather was one of the most honest and finest people I have ever known. I don't think I ever heard anyone say anything but good about him. He loved young people and I seem to recall that he was on the School Board as well. Maybe you should think about running for the School Board, it is a great way to give back to the community. Patrick, the first time I met you you brought your bucket truck to Cresco Cemetery, met my brother and I and put new rope on the Flag Pole so we could raise the flag for Memorial Day. Howard is fortunate to have so many good young people in the community. By the way, your Mother and Father are pretty neat people as well.
Frank Winn
Patrick, I second that motion for you to run for School Board member! You would bring a wealth of common sense to that venerable institution!
I do have to say, being on that board right now would be a tough call. They have a long haul ahead of them. I do think Patrick would be great. I do have to say my two sense. I think the board needed to be given the information and not asked to make such a hasty decision, (Pros and Cons). WE does need a board that votes on their own and has a mind of their own. Just because the super makes a recommendation, doesn't mean that everyone has to do what he or even what the principals want. They could at any time go out on their own, and make other recommendations if needed. In this case, I think they should have been brought the information with what Mr. Moore wanted to do, then have a special board meeting to discuss the options then voted. If they would have went this route, I think more parents would have been more understanding. We, I am speaking for alot of parents and teachers, were in the dark about all this. Yes, we knew we have a declining enrollement. But we also pay those salaries, too. Not trying to be to harsh, just so in the air with what is going on with the schools.
I am going to try to be there tonight. For a change, I will hire a babysitter so that I can go. I think we need to be watching more often to see what is going on at the board meetings. Am I wrong????
What time is the board meeting tonight?
Board meets at 7:30 pm
Good Morning!
Can anyone tell us what happened last night at the board meeting? What did the board members decide to do?
Monday night's school board meeting in brief:
• Supt. Bert Moore resigned as superintendent and special ed administrator.
• The board heard from several teachers and school patrons regarding the proposed pilot project which would split Moline and Severy schools. They then voted to do the following:
• Leave both elementary schools in operation as K-5.
• Sixth graders will attend the West Elk- Howard campus instead of Severy or Moline.
• The third and fourth grade classes will be combined at each elementary school.
• The board will explore allowing sixth graders to participate in junior high sports.
Voting for the proposal, which passed, were board members Walker, Wedman, Wolfe and Roebuck. Voting against it were Taliaferro, Smith and Russell.
We will have more information after I visit with the superintendent and board president today.
Preschool will also be at both Severy and Moline.
When does Bert's contract end?
Yeah our schools get to stay somewhat the same. :)
huhhhhhhhhhh nononononono i spent so many years trying to be alone away from the kids below us lol just kidding actouly im exited for our athletics nobody has a chace against us 6th 7th and 8th grader's in football or b-ball and that means we'll have more people on our chearleading squad !!!:) and
Is Mr. Moore resigning or retiring? I heard he has been planning on retiring, so I don't think this was a surprise at the meeting.
I hope that everyone still realizes that this is only a quick fix "band aid", and that the entire community should still be looking towards the future of our schools and start moving forward on a more permanent decision.
I would have to agree with Tobina.
This will give the board, citizens, and administration time to look at all the alternatives without being under such a strict time-table.
The resignation/retirement of the current superintendent will also undoubtedly bring in someone with fresh ideas and a new starting point. My hope is that the superintendent-to-be will be a community focused individual that is up to the challenges that face our district!
This is kinda out of left field but is Mr. Ireland still the principal at the high school?
no he retired this year and thier is a knew prin. starting sometime not sure of the name
Corey Reese is the name of the principal at the High School / Junior High.
Before the motion was made about the elementary school changes, Marty Taliaferro, board president said basically the same things Dan and Tobina did - that we have to look to the future and make some serious, long-range planning. Make some decisions and set some goals for the entire district.
I attended both the forum and the board meeting. It was a very rough and tough decision. I don't want to be on the board. I am just thinking practical for now!! You are right, it is a band-aid. We have a tough road ahead. I have also been thinking about this long and hard. If the board would get a the community facts and figures for the things that they propose, I have no problem supporting their decisions. This new pilot, just saves us the bus issue. Not really any more or less money. Dan, you are right, maybe just maybe the new super will bring new ideas to the table. But, and this is just my thinking, we need to maybe include the board and the teachers on the ideas. It was a very interesting meeting last night, I would say more interesting than the forum. Because the board seemed to have listened to some of the ideas that were put before them. But I hope that everyone understands that we, the communities need to think about the School as a whole. I worry about each town, too. But we need to save face, that is West Elk School Districts, not each town. I don't want to lose any of the schools, but it is time to face the facts. And the facts are that we can no longer financially support each of the schools.
I attended the board meeting last night, and I must say that it was a very emotional meeting in that there were some very tough issues that were faced and discusses. The board, as well as others, agonized over what was the best option to pursue at this time. I do believe the best option was chosen. However, the West Elk Communities need to come together and put our district first and foremost. The board has tried for a VERY long time to keep all schools going, and this little fix is only a very short term solution. The time has come that this can no longer be productive for our district and in fact has become a major disability to our district. All of the monies that must be used to operate these three facilities have been exhausted. There is nothing left and in fact money has to be found to keep the three campuses going. This directly effects all other aspects such as teacher salaries ( which in turn effects the ability to hire new teachers), resources needed in classrooms, programs that can be offered to our students, arts & music programs, as well as many other issues. I would love to see this district turn around and prosper and the only way is through all West Elk communities uniting to save the distrist not just a single building.
So, when does the current Supt. leave? Is he here for the rest of this year or did he resign effectively immediately?
I just talked with Bert Moore and his resignation was actually a "retirement" announcement, effect June 2009. So, he will be here for the coming school year.
Having said that, he made it clear that the decision to revisit the pilot project at last night's board meeting had a lot of do with his decision to make the announcement. I'll have some of his comments in tomorrow's Flint Hills Express.
Rudy
Thanks so much, Mr. Taylor...being out of the loop like I am, I really appreciate hearing the straight skinny from you! :-)
No! Don't say it Sally.
Ok, I am the first to say it. I am here for this district for the long haul. I had the chance around 3 years ago to run and put my children in different districts. I was really upset with the district for the way that I was treated. But I put my children first. I wanted what was best for them. I feel that they are getting a great education. Yes, this school is having some really hard times. But I don't honestly think that to many on this forum can say that they are doing just wonderful money wise. I don't think alot of their problems are the gas. But a majority are. They are lossing students because their parents must move closer to their jobs. And some because of the unsteadiness, yes. But I am not going to pull out my children at this point. Minnie is right, we need to band together and solve the problem. Don't run from it, or hide from it. Hit it head on and let's take control of it. I didn't run from this district when they weren't here for me, and honestly I can't believe that I didn't. Let's just be more understanding of all the communities that are involved. Not just are own personal gain. I believe the only solution is to build or some way, have one campus here in Howard!!!!
Gosh, I'm just really happy to be in the straight and skinny category. As you can tell from my picture --- I'm more like crooked and chubby.
Rudy, read my post yesterday in the Misc. thread, Age is a Gift - That will explain a lot . . . LOL LOL LOL
Yep, that's Rudy alright.... chubby and totally lovable. Rudy for President!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I agree with Angie. One campus here in Howard. I know it is going to be hard to see the school in Severy where all my children went, closed and maybe turned into something like a flea market. (I need a hurling happy face, Teresa). But my personal feelings have to take a back seat to keeping Elk County from drying up and blowing away. Just imagine what it would be like if the children had to go to another county to school.
I am proud of the patrons and teachers that spent a long evening at the school board meeting last night. I am glad that the board revisited their earlier decision and I do think it is the best "band-aid" solution. However, once again, some stakeholders weren't at the table - no one (as I understand it) was there representing the jr/sr high school... Also I don't know how I would feel about this decision if it was my 6th grader either. I am glad that Bert M. is retiring, but we still have a year with him at the head... I agree with Dan C. I hope that the board in searching for a new Supt, strives to find one that is more involved in the community. It could be tough b/c as I understand it - Bert's salary is 60% Spec Ed and 40% supt. And I doubt the board does another combo of that sort again. I do agree the West Elk community needs to search for a long term solution - I know what I think the answer is, but it may be in the best interest to have a 3rd party decipher the numbers to present to the West Elk Community the FACTS... and not assumption. I also think it would be in the best interest of all to keep all the stakeholders involved and to get as much feed back as possible. One idea that came to mind this pm was if 1 campus is the answer, a new grade school with a gym would make sense - maybe make the gym open to community as a wellness center too. Maybe Joanna can input here, but I know Humboldt has a great gym with a walking track above it and the citizens can access the building with a key card. That way not only do we provide a quality education to our students, but we can give back to the community and the senior citizens on fixed income who will have to foot part of the bill...
I also hope that the retreat the board is planning would incorporate more than a couple of hours for long term planning and goal setting... having been a part of several strategic planning meetings - a day seems to be a minimum. I am also hopeful that by bringing everyone into the planning of the future of West Elk, than most everyone can buy into that fact that it is our plan - not "theirs" (school bd) or "theirs" (those darn Howard folks that burnt our school down back in 19??)
There are some positive things that are coming from this and if everyone stays engaged with the future of Elk County or (Elk Konnected) in mind, I believe we can all win.
Another idea that many of the high school teachers I believe would buy into - is the need for an alternative school. I have heard many of them say this... don't ask me what it entails but maybe that would be a use for one of the elem schools if they should become vacated.
Wilma,
What is the name of that former high school, I think, on 99, I think, northeast of Eureka that is a flea market?
Waldo it was Tonovay
Yep! I went to 6th grade at Tonovay. And they quit sending 6th graders there before my brother got that age. I know it's not in good shape now, but it's been... well, over 3 decades and a fire or two that it has been privately owned.
The new Humboldt gym is great and I got to help with some of the groundwork for that project; however we moved to Howard before it was built so I'll have to check with some of our old friends to see how it's working, what they do and don't like, and what they would have done differently. I'll try to do that this week.
Yes, that is Tonovay. The flea market is in the old gymnasium. After the Tonovay school was closed, the buildings were used for, I think it was the 6th grade out of Eureka. Tonovay had consolidated with Eureka. The kids were bussed to the school every day. I don't remember how far, but at least as far as Moline is from here. Then the classrooms were torn down and the gymnasium eventually turned into a flea market. The last time I was there it was so packed that it was hard to get around in. Also dirty. I have been to other flea markets that are housed in old school buildings. They are neither heated nor cooled and generally dirty as no one in charge does any cleaning.
That big gorilla out front came from Burrton, Kansas.
Run for school board? Have you people ever really heard my views. Earl (my grandpa)was a man of little bs and a lot of hard work. If it too damn dry to raise crops you picked up rocks all day out of the pastures to stop the erosion that would eventually come when it rains. I hope to continue by picking up rocks with my skid loader. Work smarter not harder. The rains or winds will come.
If you beat your head against a wall for so long all you will have is a headache. If you use a big ass hammer you can knock in a new doorway in no time.
Sidenote: any one wanting to practice knocking down walls just stop by the drugstore and ask for the need a new doorway into the new building to the north area. byoh...
:police:When I rule the world we will have a different way of life. Mark my words before the end of this decade we will have one school. My uncle always said it is easier to get forgiveness than permission. We will all eat spicy chicken and call it tatanka that flies. The roads will all be graded to keep the rain around for all to enjoy for a while. The closed schools will be a memorial to those who have graduated before us. I will call these grand and far reaching accomplishments the "PEP RULZ"
- No More whining.
You can have no more school buildings than you have citizens to pay for them.
You must pay taxes to complain.
You must pay your taxes on time.
You must vow to never shop at Wal-mart again. Not even for underwear. I am sure that Bentonville has a wonderfull school.
All extra curricular activities will become secondary to hard core book crackin' stay up all night to figure out what Seaton was saying studing.
If you stay out late because of a game you must make that time up increasing your I.Q. by how many points the other team scored.
You must come daily to pay omage to the soda fountain and take from its ice cream freezer.
If you are late to class you have to mow the yard.
If you flunk a test you have to run for student office.
If you get caught cheating you will be quartered and fed to the FFA goats.
FFA will hay the school and lake property in square bales to give the students the rural experience.
Students with the lowest GPA will be asked to top out the barn to bring them up a level.
The school gym will be unlocked to the public.
The caffeteria will actually cook every meal from scratch.
Two words .... TRUCK FARM .....fresh is best.
New classes: at vo/ag Bus repair 101.
at renewed business Intro to creative block grant writing.
:police:If you accept my terms then I'm your guy.
PEP RULZ
PEP RULZ!!!! 8) 8) 8)
PEP - How many Mt Dews have you had at 5:30am? Frank was needing more male hormones on here - I don't think he was bargaining for this... I like the idea of lowest GPA gets to stack out the top of the barn...Can count on you to think outside the box...
Patrick, I have read that 3 times and I think the answer is "PATRICK FOR " let me read again before I finish that.
Think those RULZ are good, except the "stack the top of the barn" - that low GPA student may be studying harder and trying harder than the highest GPA, but things just by nature come harder to some people. Notwithstanding, think maybe PEP may just need to put this name in the next school board elections. (You may want to keep that "big ass hammer" handy, however, if you do ;D)
Quote from: pepelect on July 16, 2008, 04:36:56 AM
FFA will hay the school and lake property in square bales to give the students the rural experience.
Students with the lowest GPA will be asked to top out the barn to bring them up a level.
Patrick,
That single idea would increase the GPA of the school to about a 3.7 average overall....Hell, they would be putting us in the National newspapers.
Anyone who has ever had that task would agree, by the time grades came out again you would find a way to not be at the bottom :)
Quote from: frawin on July 16, 2008, 07:49:32 AM
Patrick, I have read that 3 times and I think the answer is "PATRICK FOR " let me read again before I finish that.
"PATRICK FOR ELK COUNTY PHILOSOPHER". In all seriousness Patrick, I think you would bring some fresh ideas and lots of knowledge regarding new construction and/or remodeling the facilities, and I think you and your wife have certainly proven that you are willing to invest in the future of Howard and the area, and that you care about saving the schools.
Frank
Quote from: DanCookson on July 16, 2008, 08:09:32 AM
Quote from: pepelect on July 16, 2008, 04:36:56 AM
FFA will hay the school and lake property in square bales to give the students the rural experience.
Students with the lowest GPA will be asked to top out the barn to bring them up a level.
Patrick,
That single idea would increase the GPA of the school to about a 3.7 average overall....Hell, they would be putting us in the National newspapers.
Anyone who has ever had that task would agree, by the time grades came out again you would find a way to not be at the bottom :)
I have topped out to many hay barns on a hot day, it would definitely help the GPA Average, it is not just the hot roof and no air it is the roofing nails bitting you.
Ok, I just read the article about the new up to date school changes. Mr. Moore states that it will cost $150,000 more than the other pilot. Why?? I don't understand. If it was going to cost more, why did he just sit there Monday night and not tell the board and us that were in the crowd that. He never said that. I don't understand how he could just sit there and not say anything. And then he reports it in the paper. This is what I hate about the situation. He can't be for the district if he is saying things . I am really upset!!!! >:( >:(
I think Mr. Moore is pissy cause HIS plan was rebuked, therefore he can throw numbers out that he doesn't have to prove or justify. I think he has gotten used to whatever he suggested or put out to the board they just went with. Now it appears the community and a few board members grew a set of balls (parden the expression, but it seems to fit), so it is just "I will take my ball and go home" time for Mr. Moore.
Fine with me, that position needs to be a position of leadership, communication, and most of all the ability to get many parts to work as one. Appears the search is on for that person.
I want to take a minute to thank the board members for using their judgment. By that, I mean their personal judgment and listening to people. It is not an easy thing to go against your fellow board members and the administration, but it was done and that is why people are elected. Hopefully the feathers that have been ruffled in this process can be put back in place and everyone can move on to tackling the bigger picture.
A few things I would LOVE to see:
1. A side by side financial statement of each school.
2. Estimated financial statement of each school if the other didn't exist.
3. Estimated costs to build and operate a new central school.
I know that modern efficiencies have came a long ways. I replaced my Central Heat and Air Unit last year and it was free!!!!! (Considering a 19 month reduction in my bills, it paid for itself!!!)
If the costs associated with running these schools are as such, it merits a look!!!
Or, as Madeline Albright would say, "cohonas."
Dan, at the meeting the other night they did talk about how much more it cost to run Severy then Moline. I think the big thing is the city of Severy's Gas is really high. It is independantly owed gas company, or a small company and the cost is outrages. They are concerned that this winter what the cost will be. I personally would like to see numbers, too. How is one to make a decision that is sound without seeing the numbers? Also, why were not bus schuedules available to see? I know that this stuff takes time. But the papers that they gave to us, were nothing that we as citizens couldn't get off of the school report card on the Kansas Department of Education web site. I think Mr. Moore needs to leave the district NOW!! He either needs to get on board with the communities or get off, don't KEEP pulling us done!!!
As you can tell, I am very passionate about our educational system here. I want my children to experience it, too. Ask my girls, especially Parker, I push very hard to get the best that I can out of them. This is no less than what any parents do for their children.
It is very disturbing that Mr. Moore just made the $150k increase in operations number available to the press and it was not mentioned to the public during the board meeting. I would have presumed after the meeting on Thurs that someone would look at the 6th grade move and see if it was going to change the finances and/or personel etc. I personally have a hard time understanding where this number is coming from. I agree with Dan - Mr. Moore - are you just mad b/c someone questioned you... I worry that this next year is going to be miserable - I also hope that no repercussion happens to the teachers who expressed their opinions at the last board meeting...I agree with Dan & Angie - SHOW US THE NUMBERS so that we can be informed and make educated decisions....
Uhm, Patrick...I think the 'Elk County Electoral College' has spoken...you need to run for school board in the next election. Sure wish I still lived there...I'd volunteer to inhabit all of the coffee spots and run your campaign for you! :laugh: :laugh:
Actually, people, the facts and figures pertaining to the running of the schools are supposed to be public domain material. All you have to do is go into the District Office and request those facts and figures. As for Bert's having thrown out the 150k figure...that is typical Bert...have a little something up your sleeve in reserve for when you need to make a point...although, I'm a little surprised that he accepted the ginormous raise that he received, knowing that the district had the type of financial difficulties that it obviously does. I am sure that he had his reasons...but I'm not sure those reasons were in sympathy with the district that he works for. Sounds to me like his resignation/retirement is going to benefit the district on a number of different levels.
Don't we just need a consultant rebel rouser more than a new board member. I don't think the current board has been totally utilized to it greatest potential. There is some talent there.
I get bored easily.
Have little patience for ignorance.
Question authority.
Read too fast for normal comprehension.
Don't play well with others.
I blame it all on the Special education coop, my IEP was not specific enough to challenge my ADD, ADHD, or what ever the new acronym is for lazy and don't pay attention.
I think we should not teach no child left behind but call it teach to the lowest common denominator.
I vote we bring back swats. A good whoopin' now and again and the world will be a better place. Spare the rod spoil the school.
:angel: :P
Whew..... that will get the liberals off my bandwagon.
To waaayyyy back in the '70's --- loved you then --- love you now, Patrick!
Jo
Is the new six grade teacher been picked yet? SALLY or GENA? Any one? Inquiring young impressionable minds want to know.
Hope they are up to the challenge.
Sixteen screaming, yelling, hard to get along with .................sets of parents instead of just 8. ;)
;D ;D You're on a roll tonight.. LOL
patrick do you mean sally or mary mericle or do you mean sally and mrs. wilson???? and anyway's i was told that it was mrs.mericle that will teach 6th and that sally quit
????anybody else????
Did Sally quit? I heard they told her that they didn't have a position for her. Is it that she didn't want the 3rd/4th grade split? Oh I will miss her at school, she was wonderful. I am taking it that Mary Mericle took the job. Unless like someone said Gina and Mary switched positions? Don't know
Can anyone verify that Sally Morgan quit? She is a wonderful teacher! She also was great to have in the next classroom beside me. (Mary you were wonderful also!) I hope that this is not true.
I have heard nothing but nice and good things about Mary, Sally and Gina.... They are awesome with the kids ..and the kids respect and just adore them.( which is half the battle ;) ) cause it sure makes teaching them easier when they are happy in the classrooms.
SOMEONE TOLD HER SHE DIDN'T HAVE A POSITION???
Somebody clue me in....Isn't that fact that we didn't have ENOUGH teacher start this whole fiasco??
Now I really am lost.
Here is what I know from a school board member. Sally quit, don't know her reasons. I do know that she was supposed to teach 6th. She told them when she was hired she would only teach 6th or Jr. High. It was offered to others down the line. Lynn, Mary ect... Mary took it. I personally feel that this is more of Bert Moore trying to undermine what the board did to get back at them for not doing what he wanted. Time will tell if he is constantly going to undermine and cause problems to make the board look bad and to make the plan fail.
The paper this morning hmm well lets just say that Bert is trying to justify hisself or at least make himself look good. More smoke and sugar coating. I know for a fact that he renewed his contract for only a year SEVERAL months ago!!! To me it just looks like he is throwing a tantrum because he didn't get his way. GOOD! I say. I do not believe that he is beneficial to our school or our communities. How many games, activities and graduation have you seen him at? Very few and not graduation. I would not believe a third of what was written in the story. I am sure that Rudy printed what he was given. Darlene Riggs said it right at the meeting. There's a whole lot of sugar coating on this stuff. I think that all of the board needs to remember that Bert Moore works for them and they work for us. Not the other way around. I for one would be writing up a reprimand to go in his file for continually withholding information or falsifying it as he sees fit. Misleading, the public with this article is a prime example. You cannot tell me that the pilot program was going to save that much versus what they finally decided to do. It should in all actuality be around the same cost with the exception of we won't loose at least 30+ kids had they stuck to the change. I believe this is more deceivement my Bert. ALL of the figures on ALL options should of been presented to the board for consideration. Not here is what I want and you vote for it. Wrong answer.
I commend the board members that made the change and especially Rob for voting NO in the first place. If I was from Severy I would be very worried and very angry at my board members. Be aware, very aware that one of those board members will make a motion in the near future to build a new school in Howard to house the grades schoolers. Maybe they should take a little look at Sedan before doing so. Yes they have their schools all together but when your enrollment is declining who is going to attend there? That is from a Sedan person. So building a new school won't solve the main problem. With the rising cost of fuel people will be moving to the Cities for closer work. The few left behind will be paying for it with unaffordable & unreasonably high taxes.
More and more stuff is coming out all the time. I was told last night that the teachers did suggest that the 6th grade be moved to the junior high. This happened months ago also. OOOHHH wait uh yep here it is more sugar and smoke screening. By you know who. And just so you know Bert Moore makes $103,000ish with his new raise. BUT don't be totally alarmed West Elk does not pay all of that. That being said if Bert is so worried about the teachers not making enough money (which they don't) then give up some of your salary to them.
I have to agree with Lisa....
I think it is hard to throw out a number when, and someone correct me if I am wrong, there was no available number to start with???
I don't think anyone ever put a number out that included the transportation or the loss of revenue for the kids that would be pulled out of the district. I agree it was deceptive to give Rudy that misinformation in an attempt to make himself look smart and everyone else to look bad.
Smells like a lot of sour grapes to me.
Worst thing is we get a lame duck for a superintendent for a whole year, instead of someone involved and leading.
You can not compare todays children with children of 20 to 30 years ago! First and second combination is the most difficult and needs to be avoided u8nless you have a large pool of children to select from. The Elk Co. schools have had a bad reputation with teachers looking for schools. if you wold like to discuss this with me, give me a call! MY typing is not so good. 316-722-5259 in Wichita
OKay - this $150k was getting to me and after my husband came home with another rumor, I called infamous PEP and he called the Dist Office and the Dist office told PEP that it was misquoted in the paper - the new option will NOT cost an additional dime however there is $150K left on the LOB if we were to choice that option. As far as the Sally Morgan rumor, I am trying to get that straight from the horse's mouth too. I think we all need to be very, very careful with the rumor mill right now and if it sounds outrageous - check it out.... Too bad we don't have a snope.com for Elk County....
Okey dokey well I'd like to just restate my earlier post of misleading, misrepresentation ect... by the administrator. He told them it would fail and I think he is going to do everything he can to make sure that it does. After the decision Monday night we were fine teacher wise with Sally as 6th grade teacher. But now we are one short. And who do we have to thank for that. Raise your hand if you know?
Quote from: L Hendricks on July 17, 2008, 01:56:03 PM
OKay - this $150k was getting to me and after my husband came home with another rumor, I called infamous PEP and he called the Dist Office and the Dist office told PEP that it was misquoted in the paper - the new option will NOT cost an additional dime however there is $150K left on the LOB if we were to choice that option. As far as the Sally Morgan rumor, I am trying to get that straight from the horse's mouth too. I think we all need to be very, very careful with the rumor mill right now and if it sounds outrageous - check it out.... Too bad we don't have a snope.com for Elk County....
But Liz, rumors are what the forum is for....that and PEP's enlightenment!! ;D
Lisa - don't take my comment as being directed at you - it was more to the general public... there was a comment made at the other coffee shop about an administrator had already been hired... come on folks...I wish... but the process doesn't work that fast. It would be nice if Rudy would chime in and give us his 2 cents but that might be unprofessional... Dan - totally agree - PEP was made for the forum... he definitely gives it a new spark!...
I have to ask a question....why is West Elk stuggling so bad and they seem to spend money like water at Elk Valley?? Do we get more money than WE ??
Hey...I thought that 'snope.com' was the function that Miinnie filled! (just kidding, Minnnie!)
When they told Sally they didn't have position for her. It probably went like this: They said they didn't have a sixth position for her because 6th was going to the highschool and mary was taken the job. They then probably offered her the 3rd/4th grade split class and because she prefers the older kiddos she turned it down. I will miss her so, she was a wonderful assest to the Severy school.
I so enjoy your comments on this forum. And, Patrick has turned into quite a common sense philosopher. I'm really impressed, Patrick!
I really don't have an opinion on whether the school board acted wisely in reversing its June 9 decision. I know it is popular with the people in Moline and Severy and that's important.
I do know about school finances and how the loss of students impacts the budget --- and USD 282 is being hit hard by these losses. In rough terms, you have lost 42 students and that will translate to over a quarter million dollars in funds you won't be receiving from the State of Kansas (around $6,000 per student including weighting).
That's inarguable. It makes no difference whether you like the teachers, the superintendent or the school mascot --- you're still looking at making up, or cutting back, by more than $250,000 for next year's budget. By the way, the board should be approving next year's budget for publication and I assume that will be in next week's Flint Hills Express, or perhaps the one after that. I urge everyone to read it carefully to see if the Local Option Budget goes up, because I really don't think the board will have any alternative than to raise it.
Even if the board raises the LOB, there's only between $300,000 and $400,000 that can be squeezed out of it, then you'll be at your maximum levy. After that, the superintendent and board will have only bad options at their disposal --- and bad options always start with reducing staff. (Ugh)
I truly hope the board's reversal and the plan they have adopted for next year works out fine. My gut feeling is that it's a band-aid solution to a long-term problem and the enrollment drops will probably continue as fuel prices continue to skyrocket. That's a huge factor in the continued operation of rural school districts.
But I've used lots of band-aids in my decision-making, and sometimes it stops the bleeding. Let's hope it does this time.
Anyway, I'm just proud of all of you for speaking your opinions. I urge you to visit your Board of Education office and get the complete copy of their proposed budget, once they approve it for publication. That's because only a summary will be printed in the newspaper. You all owe it to yourselves, and your children, to become students of the budgeting process. Once you start looking at the numbers, I think you'll quickly realize that the board has a difficult task ahead. Anytime I take a negative number and add it to another negative number, I really can't expect the result to be in the positive column. Passionate as we all like to get on these matters, it's simply not an emotional issue. It's a financial and managerial one.
One thing I need to point out: Bert Moore had no idea what was going to be in the paper this week. I interviewed him by telephone and wrote the story using some of his quotes. He probably didn't like the story at all.
I had to omit a large story about last Thursday night's meeting in order to get the updated story in this week's edition. I wish both accounts could have been printed but space is always a newspaperman's nemesis.
OK, you asked for my opinion --- it's worth exactly what I was paid for it. :-)
Sure am glad that PEP called and got the low down with Mr. Moore. Sorry that he probably lied through his teeth, but he is really trying to make the district look bad. I would have called when I saw the article yesterday, but to tell you the truth I couldn't I was so pissed off. I actually think the guy is whacked- sorry that is how I feel. I never really liked the guy, to many dealings with him. He tells you one thing and does the other. So glad that he is leaving. The sooner the better!!!
Rudy, you are so right about everyone going and getting a copy of the budget. I can't tell enough people that they really need to be watching what is going on. Not because the board or even the administrators are doing anything wrong, but the fall out of all of this effects each and everyone in this community and the surrounding towns also. I do have to say, I was at Monday nights meeting. I learned alot. I hope to attend other meetings in the future. No, you can't speak unless you call the board and get put on the meetings plan, but you can get information about what is happening in each school. It is important for us all to stay opened minded this next few years, too. I just know in my heart that we are in for changes. Changes aren't always that bad! I think that we will see changes to the two grade schools. I don't want to, but we can't keep nickle and diming the situation.
A clear solution, not one that I can see. Will people be upset?? YES!! But we have to be POSITIVE about this. I spent all day yesterday, totally upset and the article and what Mr. Moore said. But have had time to cool off, and decided to be more positive. But if anyone know of a teacher that would be willing to take on 3-4 combination class next year, please send them to West Elk to apply!!!
I have always liked Bert on a personal level...but on a professional level, he is the variety to throw you under the bus if it means that he will be professionally safe-guarded. I have personally witnessed him do it several times to some very talented professionals. As I said, I like him personally...but have always been wary of him professionally.
Ignoring everything else . . .
I ran a lot of kids through the West Elk and USD 282 school system. At one point I had kids in all four schools: Moline, Severy, Junior High and High school. For one reason or another, all my kids were/are special needs kids. Which means they all went through Bert Moore and the Special Ed department.
I'm incredibly pleased with the education my kids got.
I think Bert Moore did an excellent job with the very different special needs of my children. He was at most all of their IEP meetings, knew their abilities and disabilities and helped them get the best education possible.
Obviously, the teachers were also excellent - the special ed teachers and the regular ed teachers. I am still amazed at the creativity and dedication involved. My kids presented strong challenges to our system. Bert worked with his teachers and the different schools and provided my kids with a better education than I had thought possible.
I started with my kids in the Independence school system. That was disaster after disaster. Then we started getting kids from all over the state. I'm familiar with other special ed departments. West Elk has had an excellent one. That's due to the teachers, the paras (underpaid and underappreciated) and, at least in the case of my kids, Bert.
I became an underachiever because of my IEP! If things get hard now I am learning to just quit, er resign, or seek to fullfill other career goals at this juncture in my life. I already flunked out of college once.....by doing so shunting my dreams of a writting a doctorial thesis on why two lower economic rural Kansas communities can't have one fair. I can't keep help because of my lack of interpersonal skills and inability to play well with others.
Unwisely invested my entire life, not just the savings because I spent all of it already, in rural Kansas cause I have deep seeded fear of stoplights. I was caused by the red light green light game at P.E.
I was never taught political correctness.
Ya WEST ELK WAS GREAT to edigimacate me
PEP - you are silly, but atleast honest...you just like a good challenge and you got bored easily...but you can think. Mom70x7 - I don't think you will find many to disagree with Bert's capabilities as the special ed director... teachers, parents, etc speak very highly of him in that job....however the supt position is another story... but we do that a lot in this county - overpromote someone, because of lack of others to fill the position or trying to save money. It doesn't work. But again, Bert is not the only problem... we have a climate, attitude that needs changing.... so we need to look past the personnel issue and look at the greater problem and spend our time trying to find the best solution...
PEP, I think you were really meant to be a stand up comic, or at least a stand up in the bucket comic. ;D 8)
You go, Patrick!!!! :-) You always put a ;D on my face! :-)
I completely agree with you about 282's SPED department, Mom...my comments regarding Bert reflected a working relationship between boss and employee, not the relationship that Bert cultivates with his patrons. Believe me, Bert always did have a good ability with kids. And, before the screaming begins, let me remind the gallery that I stated that I liked Bert personally...it's just how he has treated some teachers in the past that made me a little wary of getting on 'that side' of him.
How many of you have gotten a call from the Winfield Courier? I just did. He was doing a story on our school situation and wanted to know what I knew. I told him I did not attend the meetings so have no "first hand" information, that all I knew was what I read on the forum, that I have my "personal" opinions but that was all. Guess he didn't want those, cause he said "thanks and you have a good evening". :o Glad that he wanted "first-hand facts". Maybe the people that do talk to him will get the information straight and leave out a lot of "I think they should" and "why didn't they" and things that are "personal opinions". Just wondered if he called anyone else.
No calls here - but I'd be interested in what the article says when it comes out.
Quote from: Mom70x7 on July 17, 2008, 11:59:54 PM
Ignoring everything else . . .
I ran a lot of kids through the West Elk and USD 282 school system
;D ;D didn't think they allowed running in the hallways
I would just like to know why the school dance team had a carwash in front of the church in their bikins. Not appropriate and very disrespectful. Just been listening to the ladies talk about it!
Hmmm...there have been more changes in the District than I knew! My, my, how time changes everything! (lol)
Today's kids probably wouldn't even give it a thought on a hot day. An adult should have changed their minds for them.
Ah, but then you'd be "damaging their psyche" by stifling their individualism and squashing their inherent 1st Amendment rights, since mode of dress has become, these days, a form of expression...in my day, I HAD NO RIGHTS. My family wasn't a democracy...my parents ruled absolutely (albeit lovingly). The kids these days would absolutely faint if they were faced with the same type of expectations that my parents had! You had better believe it that some adult should have changed their minds for them. But, in defense of those parents, 10 to 1 no parent knew what those ornery kids had on under their outer wear!
??? ???Shrinking enrollment, loosing quality teachers, raising the LOB, $5 gas, and all we want fixed is the dress code?
:police:
Patrick...you're going to have to get used to how these threads shift, from time to time, off of the central subject. I believe these were only side comments...no one is trying to take away from the main idea of the thread, believe me. Sometimes we just take a little break from all of the angst, anger and befuddlement. And, being the papa of three absolutely beautiful girls (who someday will undoubtedly have the figure, thanks to their mom, to wear bikinis), you'd better be taking some notes...you may just drive by some day to witness your ornery daughters (trait inherited from their father!) having a little more fun than you'd prefer! lol
Quote from: john61 on July 18, 2008, 04:45:13 PM
I would just like to know why the school dance team had a carwash in front of the church in their bikins. Not appropriate and very disrespectful. Just been listening to the ladies talk about it!
Had to give them something to talk about......
Most of the car washes I have been to involve swimsuits as there is water involved and from time to time people get wet.
I like banana's
I guess I need to write something as I have been asked several times about my resignation from teaching 6th grade. As of today, I have not resigned. Last June, with the board's first decision I was informed that I would teach 6th grade. I was the last teacher contacted about the change. It was my understanding that that was my job assignment and I was thrilled. I love teaching 6th grade and thoroughly enjoyed myself and was excited about the coming year. It came as quite a shock last week that since I had no seniority and someone else wanted 6th grade, I would not have the opportunity to teach 6th grade. I was told at the time that a 3/4th combination was left. I was not interested. I have not resigned and as far as I know have a continuing contract with the distrcit. I love these kids and am very sad that I will not have the opportunity to go with 6th grade to the high school. I would like to thank all of the people who have given me positive feedback and support.
You never know, it could happen!
Sally
Hi Sally, it's good to hear from you. I taught a 3/4 split and it wasn't too bad, but those were the kids I had the best feel for any way. I wouldn't have wanted 1st or 2nd. I know what you mean about having a 6th grade preference. If they are the kids you relate to best, then it's a real shame they took that option away. I have been following all this with great interest. I wish you good luck.
Hello, Sally...
I am sincerely hoping that you are a member in good standing of NEA...if so, and you are tenured, and are not in the process of being RIF'd (Reduction In Force, done when positions are reduced in number or eliminated completely), then make them find you a position...I am hoping that your refusal of the secondarily offered position doesn't constitute a resignation on the face of the wording in your teacher's contract with 282. Your NEA membership allows you access to free legal counsel...and since they offered you the 6th grade position first, without respect to the possibility of others' seniority, you might have legal grounds to fight the position being taken from you. Of course, the political fall-out from fighting this will be considerable...so consider carefully before you choose that option. As I seem to recall...the upper mucky-mucks (and their friends) take offense and remember it forever if you bring in the NEA.
By the way, Sally, you need to be wary of posting here on the site...there are those who are monitoring this site who have access to both the Board and Superintendent...posting could be very hazardous to your professional health...don't give them any ammo...make them have to deal with you fairly. Good luck...I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
My intent in writing the note was to let everyone what happened. After getting over the shock and disappointment, I am considering my options. We should not think of the board and superintendent as enemies. We have enough obstacles in our community to become divided. We are going to have to figure out a way to work together. I know everyone in the school district cares about the education of our students. I have observed it first hand. People care. We need to stay united and figure out what we have to do next.
Amen Sally! Working together doesn't seem to be a skill many of us have used in awhile. Too bad.
Dont' be scared to write here... You have the entire PEP ARMY backing you......Kiss doesn't have any thing on my girls.
Quote from: Catwoman on July 21, 2008, 02:53:59 PM
By the way, Sally, you need to be wary of posting here on the site...there are those who are monitoring this site who have access to both the Board and Superintendent...posting could be very hazardous to your professional health...don't give them any ammo...make them have to deal with you fairly. Good luck...I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
To bad those people don't have the balls (cojones) to post. Yes, if you are one of those people referenced, I am speaking about you.
Kind of like running home and tattling?
Been there done that, the big ones really don't like to know when they aren't doing their jobs right!!!! :laugh: It happened to me. But that is in the past and I am proud of myself for standing up to them. I might not be employed with them now, but it is sooooo much better with my current employer!!!! :D
You go, girl! :D :D
Just wanted to give my update. I have this T-shirt that reads "Put on your big girl panties and deal with it." I live by that motto. I realized that my choice was to teach or not to teach so I have committed myself to teaching the combined 3rd/4th grades at
Severy. I am excited about the challenge and am looking forward to great year. Thanks for the support of the forum.
That is great!! You will be wonderful. The children are lucky to have you!!! :angel:
Good Luck! Hope you have a wonderful school year.
Sally, I am glad you are going to be teaching this year. You have too much to offer not to teach! It is going to be a great year. ;D See you soon.
Yeah, we will have Sally again. I really enjoyed working with her this past year. :laugh:
What Teachers Make
The dinner guests were sitting around the table discussing life.
One man, a CEO, decided to explain the problem with education.
He argued, "What's a kid going to learn from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?"
He reminded the other dinner guests what they say about teachers: "Those who can... do. Those who can't.... teach."
To emphasize his point he said to another guest;"You're a teacher, Bonnie. Be honest. What do you make?"
Bonnie, who had a reputation for honesty and frankness replied, "You want to know what I make?
(She paused for a second, then began...)
"Well, I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could.
I make a C+ feel like the Congressional Medal of Honor.
I make kids sit through 40 minutes of class time when their parents can't make them sit for 5 without an
I Pod, Game Cube or movie rental.
You want to know what I make?" (She paused again and looked at each and every person at the table.)
''I make kids wonder.
I make them question.
I make them apologize and mean it.
I make them have respect and take responsibility for their actions.
I teach them to write and then I make them write. Keyboarding isn't everything.
I make them read, read, read.
I make them show all their work in math. They use their God-given brain, not the man-made calculator.
I make my students from other countries learn everything they need to know in English while preserving their unique
cultural identity.
I make my classroom a place where all my students feel safe.
I make my students stand, placing their hand over their heart to say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag,
One Nation Under God, because we live in the United States of America .
I make them understand that if they use the gifts they were
given, work hard, and follow their hearts, they can succeed in life."
Bonnie paused one last time and then continued........
"Then, when people try to judge me by what I make, with me knowing money isn't everything, I can hold my
head up high and pay no attention because they are ignorant...
You want to know what I make?
I MAKE A DIFFERENCE. What do YOU make Mr. CEO?"
His jaw dropped, he went silent.
My personal thanks to all the teachers ..everywhere.
Teresa
Good ONE Teresa!
Now listen here, that saying is "Those who can do. Those who can do MORE teach!" 8)
Sally, I'm proud of you. It took a lot of courage and intestinal fortitude to make that decision. Have a great 08-09 school year!
All my respect and admiration,
Catwoman
I am glad you have the heart to teach the kids that are in the most critical stage of learning. They have the unique opportunity to absorb all of your numerous talents. I hope you have more fun than contraversity. The kids won't care where they go to class especially if their teacher is awesome. If you have any unrulely parents send them in to chill out in the walkin. If you need to reward a super student give them an Ice Cream cone on me.
Good luck.
PEP
Teresa, that just brought tears to my eyes!! Because I know that many people don't always like that being a teacher is important, but where would we be without our teachers!! I wouldn't even know how to read this forum without teachers!! :laugh: That lady is right to, it is not the amount of money you make, but the love that you have in doing the job!! I love teaching!! It is in my heart and soul. I do miss having a classroom, persay, but I do teach now just different ages and all at the same time!! from 12 months to 4 years old!! :angel:
Angie, you have truly found your calling for all those little ones! The other place that you would be awesome is the classroom! I know that someday we may lose you as a provider of love for our little ones because I think teaching a classroom is also calling you. :angel:
I had one guy tell me one time,"You can lead a child to knowledge, but you can't make him drink." That led to a very interesting conversation with me. :(
That was great Teresa! I love teaching. The little ones bring so much joy to me when they learn or discover something new. The excitement and light in their eyes in the best. The stories they tell are wonderful too! We will be talking about something and all of a sudden a hand will go up and they will be telling a story about their dad or an animal that they have; nothing to do with what we are talking about but that is okay. Those kiddos are the future and it's great to know that I am helping to prepare them for their future. :)
Also, Angie, Chelle is correct. You are wonderful. We love having you take care of our really little ones. I feel wonderful each and every day knowing that I am leaving my son with you. :D
There are angels walking around on this earth, masquerading as people (anyone for some Fried Green Tomatoes?)...and good daycare providers are among the most important of these. So many parents rely on the goodness of these angels in disguise...and count the dc providers as members of their family. If you're doing your job as a babysitter, you're spending precious little time sitting!
What possible reason would someone have for taking their students out of district? I understand that some people live closer to the other districts and choose to go their but at what expense? The fact that West Elk has an excellent education experience and offers many college prep cources has got to be a big factor in your childs school. If there is a personality conflict then tell someone about and it will be fixed. Remember it might be your side of the conflict that may be is error. Your child doesn't have the wisdom of years of experience with teaching the finer things in life as do most of the teachers in the district.
We started a group of like minded individuals to bring the area together even though it is call Elk Konnected is encompasses Severy and all of Elk county including parts of Chautauqua county. In the spirit of bringing people together why when talking about trying to deal with the loss of teachers did we have comments like I will pull my kids out and go elsewhere? Aren't we trying to educate our kids to be smarter than us? What are we teaching them if we say that when things get tough we buckle down and quit. I don't have to put up with that.
We are living in a very small part of the world. We are isolated from many of the problems that larger more economicly stable communities have to deal with on a day to day basis. We need to remember that to keep our way of life that changes are going to be made. Some good and some bad. But we can't turn tail and run at the first sign of weakness.
As for my first point how do we get the outflow of students turned to an inflow of excitement. Whatabout getting one on one with the students and asking them what the problem is. If there is a common thread then that would maybe indicate an issue that need to be fixed. If it is administrative I think that it is changing, good or bad, it is changing. We have a new principal for Severy next year. I hope he brings new ideas that will help build a stronger community.
The school decision has to be made on what is best for the students in the long run. They attend West Elk for 13-14 years and I bet not one graduate's best or worst memory involves the building itself. If bringing together the entire county we would have over 3000 people as one voice. We could have one powerhouse, notice how I brought in the suttle reference to the wind farm, in the entire league. I would love to see how our test scores stack up against Sedan, Eureka, Central, and even Independence.
If we give up some our own personal identies and start thinking as a group we will be alot better in 10 years. A new school is just a building. Maybe in ten years someone will be making aircraft parts in the caffeteria. I can't think a bigger or better influence that Grenola has had in the last three decades. The nursing home loss in Moline was a serious blow but I bet now as many or more people are employed and not worrying about the viability of their position. More people visit the old folks there now then when they had medicare beds. There is a great need for that service in this area. Hospitality in the area has been overlooked. The cattlemens inn burned down years ago. No one stepped up and built another. I think we could have a small toursim business if we would want one. What about using the Moline school as a visitors center for all of Southeast Kansas. Where did Oakleaf go to grade school? The kid is going places. It would make a great museum. We could take people on jeep tours of the flinthills, tour the wind towers, have a bar b que.......oh wait that is in Sedan......Sorry Rudy, tell Bill didn't mean to still your thunder.
Students leaving the district -
I know of one who left because he was bullied and threatened here. It was definitely in his best interest to leave.
I know of one who left because she thought the school was too tough on her: they kept giving her detentions for being tardy every day. (In other words, she constantly overslept and didn't want to accept the consequences.)
Her sister followed her the next year, along with a friend, after being told the classes were easier. They were. C and D grades here became high B's. (In other words, our teachers expected more knowledge to be learned.)
Those are the ones I have personal knowledge about. Of the four, I think only one was valid, and that's because the school, at that time, was not taking the bullying problem seriously at the high school. They're doing much better now, but I think they're still reactive instead of proactive.
Ok if a student consistantly is late for class and I am assuming that the student lives closer to Howard that the Lionden wouldn't the student have to get up even earlier to make it to class on time. Or is that too ridgid of a structure that might stifle the creativity? May be Lionden doesn't require attendence? I know according to their test results the don't require much. I have re-hashed this in my tiny little mind and have made a new revolution. The more the b and c students leave the smarter our school gets. If we could weed out all the d and f students as well as the b- underachievers we might have something. The smartest class of what is left. We won't have any funding to have school but we will be really really smart.
Accountability.
That's what's missing these days. Accountability of students. Accountability of parents. Accountability of teachers. (I'm not saying that our community or school has these issues, but unfortunately, one bad apple...)
Accountability of Students: Students need to learn to be accountable for their actions. I threw my inhaler across the locker room after losing a volleyball game when I was a senior, and the coach made me sit the bench for the next game.
Accountability of Parents: My parents thought it was a little harsh of a punishment for me (as a younger girl was always cussing in the locker room and she was the "tattletale"), but they did not buck the coach and told me that I must learn to control my emotions and take responsibility for the things I did wrong. They also held me out of track in Jr High b/c I made a "C" in a class. I begged and pleaded and tried to make deal after deal with them. But they stuck to their guns and wouldn't let me run track. I was so mad at them, but I knew they meant business and I did NOT make a "C" the next year, that's for sure!
Accountability of Teachers: Why do you think we have all these assessment tests in schools these days? It's not to keep "no student left behind", but to make sure the teachers are actually TEACHING the courses. Like I said, one bad apple...
Ah, as far as the accountability of teachers goes...are you referring to the "No Teacher Left Behind" program? :D Scripted programs are the definite result of this trend toward making sure that lower-functioning teachers are brought up to the level, through scripting, of more proficient educators. The problem is, those scripted programs bring down (temporarily) the level of the higher-functioning educators...until they get accustomed to the program and then the high-functioning educator uses the program, rather than the program leading the educator. And, yes, this is a direct result of NCLB.
I really think this school need more hands on training. I have been trying to employ highschool kids as much as possible for the last ten years are I can tell you that the skills aren't there. I mean it is rare the find a person that can correctly count change in a reasonable amount of time. The problems I have ran into are not knowing how to get out of bed in the morning every morning. Stay till the end of the day every day. Work on weekends if needed. I can always tell who has had a voag course and who hasn't. But we need to expand this program. A high school student should know what crops their parents grow. How to change a tire. Which end of the hammer hurts the worst. What the difference between a 1/2" socket with a 3/8" rachet and a 3/8" socket with a 1/2" rachet. What are linemans anyway? Is a fish tape something that catches fish. Sweeping the floor should not take two people. One to do it and one to redo it. There are 16 little marks on each inch of a tape measure so stop counting them every time. A masonary drill and a wood drill are both bits that fit into the same drill. Screwdriver doesn't mean chisel.
new classes for the year:
Mold abatement 101.
- Why not to text at work
Lol Pep, you have touched on a subject close to my heart. I am always amazed at the number of people who come to work on a construction site that have no idea how to read a tape measure! You get to their house to pick them up and you've been out of bed for a couple hours at least cause you have kids and husbands to take care of before you go to work and this goober makes you wait cause they aren't even out of bed yet! And then get pissy if you tell em to hurry the hell up. Have no idea how to set up a ladder much less a walkboard, I realize everybody had to be shown once but you just wanna say hey it ain't rocket science bud, you been here a couple years now you oughta be pickin some of this up LOL
::) OH, MY, counting change, one of my pet peeves. The computerized cash register tells them the change is $6.39, so they hand you the money and say "your change is $6.39". No counting, so they have no idea if they gave you the correct amount. More than once what was put in my hand was not $6.39, sometimes in my favor sometimes in their favor and sometimes hard to convince them of their mistake. AND DON'T DARE TRY TO GIVE THEM THAT EXTRA PENNY, IT WILL SCREW WITH THEIR MIND BIG TIME. When I worked retail, I always counted the change back. This was for my own satisfaction that I wasn't making a mistake, which happens, and because that's the way it should be done. Something I learned in lower grades. My girls all learned counting change in second grade under Alberta Young. She had a "store" set up in the back of the room and this was part of math. Do they not teach this anymore? Guess not :-\
Got one more class for ya, PEP...
Applying for Scholarships 101
That's fine that we can teach them what we already know, but I think it's important for them to go out and realize that they can learn OTHER things, too. Besides, I'd rather the future Dr. Perkins count the measuring tape twice before he cuts into me.
Has anyone checked out the open letter to the Editor in today's online Flint Hills Express? Bert Moore has responded to everyone's concerns. Where was Sally planning on teaching? I hope it was Moline...because Bert has stated that the 3/4 class in Severy is open and they are vetting candidates for that position. I hope that's not her position that is being discussed.
I thought she did say Severy...uh oh, I'm worried! ???
Quote from: Yalls on July 24, 2008, 06:15:59 AM
Just wanted to give my update. I have this T-shirt that reads "Put on your big girl panties and deal with it." I live by that motto. I realized that my choice was to teach or not to teach so I have committed myself to teaching the combined 3rd/4th grades at
Severy. I am excited about the challenge and am looking forward to great year. Thanks for the support of the forum.
On July 24th, she did say that she was committed to teaching the combined 3rd/4th grades at Severy. I wonder what is up now? :( ???
I think this is the same letter that was in the paper last week, thus the confusion about Sally.
Good, I thought it was all settled.
I'm so glad to hear this...because the date on the entry was today. Must be a reprint...thank goodness!
Hey - we just heard the name of PEP's new course - MANUAL LABOR course... they actually had a manual labor building in the early 1900s.... and we wonder what went wrong....
Applied work etiquette for beginners....
I read in Rudy's rag that the school had a tornado readiness evaluation. I that assessment available and I wonder how a cinderblock building would last compared to a concrete and steel structure that was abandoned years ago. The tornado drill used to put us wee ones in the locker rooms under the gym. Is there a plan to remove the gym structure off the top of the concrete locker rooms to get the wee beasts back out? I think the doors will be full of roofing material and air conditioners if it ever comes down. Which it will it is the largest free standing structure in the county. The sky lights will blow out and then one wall will give way crashing the roof to the ground. Can we build a concrete tunnel from the locker rooms out to the football stadium. It could serve two purposes one for emergency egress after a catastrophic event and the other a shortcut through the crowds to get to the concession stand/football field.
I never cared before but if my daughter is going to be there it better be done right.
Wow, Patrick...I didn't realize that your eldest was already on her way to the Howard complex! Man, time flies. I am tempted to make an observation (or two) regarding relative age issues...but will abstain for the moment (lol). :laugh: :laugh:
12th to Six grade is at Howard this year......5th grade the year after that .....4th.....3rd....2nd....1..prek. The diehards will probably secede and start a charter school in the old buildings.
I am going to start the 24 hour 12 month PEP RULZ ACADEMY....
ALL Work.
All THE TIME>
With no whining. Capitol and corporal punishment will be used either on the students or parents which ever needs is the most. Usually its the latter.
Well, bend over and assume the position, Patrick...the board of education is about to be applied! :laugh:
Speaking of which . . .
The West Elk Board of Education is meeting tomorrow night, Aug. 11th, at 7:30 pm at the District office.
What did the flipper floppers re-/not deside to do this month?
We are going to combine with Sedan and Longton. Tomorrow.....
Close all the schools. Fire all the help. Sorry we need the money to...
Buy air conditioned busses with plasma TV screens and web-enabled computers for internet teaching on their way to their free and reduced lunches.....
No child left behind unless they get up late.
which we can't fix on site because we don't remember how to set the alarm clock to get up and...
to cook....just fire up the microwave popcorn and ramen noodles that is all they ate all summer anyway.
At least I am not bitter.
i agree withhim this time exept the popcorn i ate it once all summer and that was only time ,the bus i love the idea just teach us on thier :)
Heather! You mean you didn't eat any of that okra??? :P
Interesting how interest in the school board meeting quieted down. Only three persons from community at large at the meeting last night.
Not much new news. However, when one is at the meeting, you find out how complicated our educational system is and, quite frankly, how screwed up our state and federal government have it.
Unless things change at the state and federal level, things will not get easier for us smaller, more rural districts.
PEP - hope to see you at next months meeting. I'll bring the Dew. You bring the sarcasm. We'll have a great time.
September 8th @ 7:30.
DW
Quote from: Joanna on August 12, 2008, 11:15:12 AM
Heather! You mean you didn't eat any of that okra??? :P
??? heck no i didn't eat any of that okra make me puke gag myself :-[ no no no no no grossssssssss
Uhhhh... I want okra!!!! Why can't I have some??? I'll take Heather's!!! (insert whine here)
I am an absolute okra fanatic. Growing up in the midwest I had pickled okra, fried okra all the time and just thought that it was something everybody ate. Unfortunately where I live if you ask most people what is okra they would have no idea. If I ever see okra in the mainstream stores it is $4.99 a pound. Well for the quantity that I want to eat it in that is just not practical. Recently we just had an Indian Market open ( country of India) and they were mostly sold out. Just the long way of saying anyone that doesn't want to eat their okra I want it.
DNA
Tobina, did you and your Dad make any jalapeno jelly? I haven't yet -- I don't know where the times goes when it flies by, but I sure don't seem to get any of it back -- and I'm not getting everything done that I was SURE that I would.
I wish I could hand you some of our okra, it has been wonderful.
DNA - anybody tries to give me Okra, it's all yours
Thanks Flo I think shipping costs would kill me. I alway was a kid that loved vegetables. I always love egg plant and brussel sprouts too, but in the midwest it wasn't as popular. When I came to California the large Italian community made that something that I can get for cheap.
My Mom the Howard, KS girl tells a funny story. When she was little she hated peas. Being from Kansas though you were taught to eat everthing on your plate and be happy you had it. For years my parents had to force my little brother to eat any kind of vegetable. My little brother one time refused to eat peas and was gagging as kids do. Finally my Mom said he doesn't have to eat peas if he doesn't want to. To find out my Mom hated peas. One of the times an exception was made for her was by my Uncle Neil Winn when he put his foot down and said "Mary Myrna" doesn't have to eat peas. That story has held special meaning in my family for ever.
David
David, this is kinda off the path of this thread, but gotta tell you. When I was in second grade I had the true "wicked step-mother". She BOILED okra, put it on our plates and said eat. I could not get that slimy stuff down. I don't know how long I had to set at that table, but it seemed like hours and hours. Never did get it down. She finally gave up. Maybe okra fixed other ways is good, and I do like my vegetables, but I just can't bring myself to eat okra.
Quote from: dnalexander on August 12, 2008, 03:36:49 PM
I am an absolute okra fanatic. Growing up in the midwest I had pickled okra, fried okra all the time and just thought that it was something everybody ate. Unfortunately where I live if you ask most people what is okra they would have no idea. If I ever see okra in the mainstream stores it is $4.99 a pound. Well for the quantity that I want to eat it in that is just not practical. Recently we just had an Indian Market open ( country of India) and they were mostly sold out. Just the long way of saying anyone that doesn't want to eat their okra I want it.
DNA
Shoot if i thought it would survive shipping i would ship ya some. Its going 3.99 a pound in the stores around here IF you can find it. I have been selling it for 2.75 a pound. I have some more to pick tomorrow. Hope it keeps producing through til fall :)
Did we just start a horticulture thread in the middle of the school changes. And you though I didn't learn coefficients and tangents in math class.
I only go to the meetings that offer action, fighting, and the internal struggle to bring down the other guy. A regular meeting about regular school stuff is no fauder for ridicule......Unless I start in on the community service day.
Why don't we take this one step further. Don't we still teach government at the high school? Require all students to attend city council or county commissioner meetings. I know they are held on a school night and are during school. Have your mom call a fake sickness, its not like she hasn't done it before. Mondays are off most of the time anyway. Require 50 hours community service before you graduate. Start it in the 1st grade.
The civil disobedience that I have shown is caused by apathy. I want people to get off their butts and do something. If it is only to tell me how stupid my darn sewing is, just do something.....(Internet thread humor)
We have 800 people in Howard. I have never seen 800 people at one place at one time for any reason. We have 3000 people in the county. When have they ever been to a single solitary event. I bet even presidential elections only have 50% turnout. APATHY KILLS.
Dr Dave...the fair board meetings are usually on Sunday evenings. Chamber noon meetings on every forth Tuesday. Rotary is Wednesday night at 6:30 but there is food. Sunday afternoon Elk Konnected action team monthly. Sunday evenings weekly are CCD (Sunday school)for the Catholic youth. First Thursday of every month is Investment club but again there is food. Friday is free meeting wise but football starts soon. Freight trucks come Monday at 10:30am and again on Thursday11:45am. Surf the chat rooms from 10 till 3. 3-6 Plan the global domination of the west side of main street. Breakfast at 5:30-6. Toots rulz.
I'll find an old camping stove to brew you some French Roast... you will need the caffeine to keep up.
PEP
QuoteWhy don't we take this one step further. Don't we still teach government at the high school? Require all students to attend city council or county commissioner meetings. I know they are held on a school night and are during school. Have your mom call a fake sickness, its not like she hasn't done it before. Mondays are off most of the time anyway. Require 50 hours community service before you graduate. Start it in the 1st grade.
Government is still taught - and the students are required to attend a meeting of some kind. Most of them in the past have chosen school board meetings. The last school board meeting before the end of the semester is usually packed with kids. They have to stay at the meeting until executive session starts.
I know other districts have added community service as a graduation requirement. It would be great if we did as well.
Interesting statistic we heard last night... if a child doesn't volunteer before they're 14 years old, they do not become a volunteering adult.
MANY, MANY schools require a certain amount of community service hours from ALL kids before they can graduate. Not just recommended. And "volunteering" at home doesn't count. That's called being a child who has chores.
PEP,
So, it looks like your 2nd Monday of the month is free.
Dr. Dave
P.S. I thougt you rulzed not Toots.
I think it is very encouraging that USD 282 is going to allow a "service learning day" in the 08-09 year for 6th-12th. Thanks Elk Konnected Physical Image team for your hard work on this item. This team tried to implement it in 07-08, but it wasn't possible. Elk Valley has been very successful with their day and this is one of the assets that people felt we should duplicate. This team went ahead and had community appreciation days and so far have been in Grenola, Moline, Longton, Howard - soon to be in Severy, and Elk Falls this fall. This approach has been to do work on a Sat with youth volunteers and adult mentors. I helped with the Howard one and had several of the vball players. We washed windows... great experience. I look forward to more such days. Also congrats to the Leos and Lions - you guys are doing a great job involving youth. Somehow we have to connect (Konnect) the school and the community...
Dr Knifesharpener,
You obviously have not had one of Louise's breakfasts..... Chrisman Rulz.... Just go in and order PEP's red plate. bring a friend and plan a nap.....it is not for the meek or dieting. Don't try to eat all of it the first time you might perforate a diaphragm or something. Cholesterol is just a fancy way to sell more oatmeal.
We are also talking about dollars per student. What does it cost to teach a student calculus? How much money does it take to improve the track team to state champion status. What is the gpa of the state winners? Are we spending our money wisely?
Yes there are great scholarships to be won, that will probably put many people into a college, but there are also education grants, scholarships, and internships.
Is it justifiable for a struggling community to have a million dollar track? I think so. As long as the entire community has access to it and it is available. The same should go for the weight room and gym....
Last I remember the school was built out of taxpayer money, insured by taxpayer money, maintained by taxpayer money, and should but accessible by the tax payers.
We are throwing around ideas about creating a health and wellness center with the purpose of entertaining, educating, and improving community health through physical activity. What on earth would we have to build on for if you had access to the building already in each town. Liability is liability. Pay more premium. If it has more exposure it will cost more. Oh well. We spent more money busing kids to and from school that live close enough to walk than the insurance will cost.
We will probably have to increase security with either a staff member or community paid buck stops here employee... You can get a complete workout just walking the halls locking the doors at night. Let's leave them open and see what happens.
Uncle Bill always said it is easier to get forgiveness than permission.
I have to ask a question to all the forum friends out there. What is to early for kids to get on the bus?? Ok, when we were put with the option to change the schools, 1-3 to Moline and 4-6 at Severy, we were told that the kids wouldn't be put on the bus before 6:30. If I am wrong about that please tell me. Ok, we are now back to the regular routine, and you know what my kids are going to have to get on the bus at 6:25. We only live 1 mile or a little over from town. It kinda upsets me a little. I know that I a petty about things, but it sounds crazy!! They changed the routes anyways!! If the girls ride to town with me, in which I have to be to work at 6:30 to, they will still have to get up at the same time. I am not worried about the time they get on the bus, as much as the time they will be on the bus. They will be on the bus at least 1 hour and 15 minutes. I haven't had to worry much about the bus, what I mean is, Parker has always had Connie Nelson drive the bus since she started school. I am not against change, but I don't really like the idea of them being on the bus that long. I am being petty. But I was spoiled with Connie. I would call and tell her if she was going to ride the bus or not. We formed a bond, I know that is silly, but I trusted that my child was in good hands while on the bus. I know who her new bus driver is and I am sure that they will be fine, too. But it's the other kids that worry me too. The bus ride is the biggest part of public school that I don't like. You would be surprised the number of things that go on behind the bus drivers back now a days. Parker would come home telling me things and she would ask questions that I would have to try and explain, (which she didn't need to know yet about Life!!!!). I know that they will be exposed to certain things, but the amount of words that I had to try to tell her what they mean, or lie about has been alarming!! I know that is part of school, but I just had to get my gripe out there!!
I am being petty, I know that!! But just worried about my kids!! I guess we will have to sit down with my middle child tonight and really go over the bus rules with her. I did in the past, but she is only going to start Kindergarten and I am worried that she will have a hard time on the bus!!
You can add anything to help, or relieve the stress that I am feeling now ??? ???
Angie...This was one of my questions when we were at the public forum. Lane would be on the bus at 6:30 and have to ride allllll the way to Moline. He'd be on the bus almost 2 hours!
I was informed by board members that kids are versatile and it doesn't bother them. Please! I don't want to get a cranky kid off of the bus in the evenings...and then only get to spend 3 hours with him before he goes to bed.
However, I don't have this problem yet. I'm just tickled that they are finally going to pick him up at the house instead of me having to drive him into town everyday.
Billy tells me he always had to get on the bus at 6:30 or sometimes before that time. I can't even imagine that. I was always on the bus at 7:30, until I was able to drive. But then again, I lived in town. In my opinion, that is a little early, especially for Rebecca...but I suppose it's the price we pay for living in the country.
I rode the school bus for over an hour since pretty much the beginning of school... until I was able to drive.
AND I did learn a lot about "life" on the school bus, too.
I think it's lucky that the bus still runs and enables kids to be picked up at their house.
AND I feel sorry for them that it's such a long ride; their day ends later and begins earlier that everyone else.
YES, Angie, talk to your daughters about activities, friends, bullies, etc that happens on the bus. When talking to your kids at the end of the day, ask them about the bus ride, too. And get to know the new bus driver, too! In such a small community, you're lucky that you don't have a new/different driver each day. And you're lucky to have the option to take them to school, too, if the situation calls for it (which there may be instances that it does).
Golly that is a long time for a little one to set on a bus................ :-\
I know I spoiled my kids but if they had to get on the bus at 6:25..and I had to be at my "other home"(aka daycare) and I could have them with me until school time.. I would do that.. but that is just me.
Angie.. can't they pick the girls up later in town at the day care?
I am well aware of what we all did to get to school. Some of it is unavoidable just to to the way life works. Most of the current science say that kids need more sleep than we give them and school should start later. I don't have the perfect solution to when they should start and how long they should go to school. I am glad we think of it and do our best to fit it into the reality of real life. I hope we can improve. The average commute time for my urban are of California and the average commute time in Elk county are about the same. 40 minutes. Something is wrong when the kids are up at 6:30 and spend 90 minutes commuting to school just about twice as long as we spend going to work. Again, no solution just reality.
David
I haven't talked to Debbie Stange about the bus routes - but it might be worth a call if someone is concerned about the pickup time. I am guessing it has to do with so few bus drivers, few kids, but many miles to drive between pickups - especially in the country.
When I was in grade school, I was about the third stop on the route in the morning and the third to last off in the evening. I don't remember exactly when I got on the bus, but I do remember having to ride it all the way to Elk Falls via 160, then clear to Huntington's and Peter's halfway to Longton on old 160, then back to Moline via the Garvin Road. And the farm is only two miles from the Moline Grade School. Then in the afternoon, the route ran exactly backwards of the morning route. First on, last off. >:( :(
What I never understood is why the first on in the morning couldn't be the first off in the afternoon. Why can't they run the route the same direction both times, so that it would average out a little, instead of some kids being on the bus 2 hours each way? ??? :(
They can pick up the girls here at 7:30 or so. The oldest wants to ride the bus from the house. Rebecca don't really care. They would still have to get up around 6 or a little earlier since I open at 6:30, too. We thought we would give it a try to see how they do. The good thing is that they will get off the bus here. So, it shouldn't be to late. We really haven't changed their sleep time throughout the summer, but the closer it is getting to school the harder it is to get them to go to sleep. We have always put them to bed around 8:30 and 9:00. Last night, they were in bed at that time, but didn't go to sleep until after 10. We will just have to see how it goes!! I am being positive about it!!!! ;)
I agree with Liz and have to restate - it would be best to call Debbie Stange and discuss with her. If there is a different solution, she can't fix unless she knows what are the concerns. If there is no better solution, she would be able to explain why it is so.
Well, I kinda was upset yesterday, but feel that it is best to try it and see how things go. You never know until you try. I know that her teacher will tell me if she feels that this is to much time on the bus. But it won't matter about the getting up time, if she came with me it would be the same.
I will what till I see how she reacts first, and if it works out great!! If not then I will discuss it with Debbie. She did tell me that they had to rearrange the bus routes!!
My daughters came home from the first day of school and I began the usually drill of who sat by who on the bus. What was the new kids names? Was it PE or Music? What was for lunch?
Then the weirdest answer: Did you say the pledge of allegiance? two No's and a yes.
The sixth grade and combined 3/4 didn't say the Pledge? When did we turn communist. Did the bleeding heart liberals and the ACLU come to town and set up camp? I think they would get the same response as the Phelps gang from Topeka. We have trees, we have rope........RED NECK TECH.
Francis Bellamy would roll over in his grave: "I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the Republic for which its stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
I believe that in times of war we should have everyone in any school say the pledge of allegiance every morning. Your fellow Americans are putting their life on the line for you to have the right to say:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
exit stage left..............
I'm with ya on that one! If they don't say it, does that mean they don't have to learn it either? :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
For your information PEP, I am not a communist. I am a teacher that had over a million different things going on the first hour of school and believe it or not the Pledge (as well as lunch count) slipped my mind. I did however, manage to get your daughter fed.
There have been many times in my classroom when I have lectured my students on the importance of the meaning of each word in the Pledge. I do believe your daughter was in my classroom last year and we discussed how it was important to think of those who fight for our freedoms while we recite the Pledge. This was during the time that the Mackey children had lost their father in Iraq.
When it comes to religion, birth control, patriotism, morals, etc. if you teach it at home then the school shouldn't have to do it for you. If we let the schools concentrate on reading, riting, and 'rithmatic we will be better off. Once we do that then we can add all the other important topics.
Quote from: dnalexander on August 20, 2008, 09:49:31 PM
When it comes to religion, birth control, patriotism, morals, etc. if you teach it at home then the school shouldn't have to do it for you. If we let the schools concentrate on reading, riting, and 'rithmatic we will be better off. Once we do that then we can add all the other important topics.
It takes less than 1 minute out of each morning to say the pledge. No excuse really to not say it :) Its all a matter of prioritiees.
I have three sons in the military, they get up at 5 am every morning stand at attention and salute the flag when the flag is raised every morning. :) I figure if they can take time in their busy day to do this, we can too :)
And yes I do say the pledge as i put up my flag on my front porch :D
I agree with you 100% Steve; we should never be too busy to forget this. God bless you and your sons, and God bless America!
It is important, I have posted as much information on the flag, patriotism, and U.S history as anyone on here. Just not the job of a school to teach Flag, pledge, religion, patriotism, birth control, morals that is your job as a parent. Again if you do it yourself and let the school teach reading , writing, and arithmetic we will be better off.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on August 20, 2008, 10:24:22 PM
I agree with you 100% Steve; we should never be too busy to forget this. God bless you and your sons, and God bless America!
God has, he has kept my sons alive so far, and i live in the best country on earth one where he gives me freedom to say what i want to say, to live how i wish to live, and the guarantee that no one can take it from me. :)
Im as poor as a church mouse but i'm the richest man on earth :)
No guarantees. Just your boys and the rest of the men and women of the US armed services which has served us well..
Gina, Backup, slow down, this is not a personal slam on your show........I am not complaining one bit about your class room or what you teach or how you teach it.
What I really am asking for is the entire school to, in mass say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before you do anything else.
I think that some things need not be forgotten. A daily reminder if you will that you have the luxury to teach two classes at the same time and the God given ability to do it so well only because someone else is there keeping us safe.
If it means that my children go hungry, then so be it, it is more important to say the flag salute every morning than eat a meal. And at home, yes, then pray before every meal....can't even sneek a bite or Christina will come unkorked on you...
Keep up the good work.
Don't take me so seriously.........
PEP, I have never in my life taken you seriously. lol
I know this is going to probably irk some, but in my humble opinion, saying the Pledge is akin to remembering to do something else...say THANK YOU. Yes, it is the duty of parents to teach the social morays that exist in our time. However, teachers also try to inject some of that into their teaching because, contrary to those 'teachers' who just show up and draw their pay, real 'educators' are not only teachers but mentors...people who teach the WHOLE child, not just the academic one. And, one of the things that must be taught to children is how to exhibit gratitude...to not always just be a taker but also give something back...like a simple 'thank you'. I have noticed that exhibiting gratitude seems to be a dying art form within about the last five years...instead, there's a real air of entitlement that seems to be pervasive...no thanks required on the part of the receiver. This word would be an easier place to live in if we had more givers and a few less 'entitled' people.
I agree whole heartedly, Catwoman, and I definitely believe that the Pledge of Allegiance should be said EVERY MORNING before classes begin. I also believe that all parents would want this to take place, as all children need to know and remember how we must show respect for our flag and our country.
May God always Bless America !! and those that are defending our freedom each and every day.
I have a cute story on the Pledge. My kindergartener came home yesterday from school. I asked all the normal questions and stuff. When all the kids have left the daycare, we were in the garden checking it out, and I noticed she was holding up a piece of grass, telling her little sister, "This is how the Pledge goes," she started it out. I asked her if she did that at school and she told me that someone in her class got to hold the flag and they all got to say the Pledge. It was really neat!!! :laugh:
:o What did you guys do today that makes the paper?
What would a new grade school in the old grade school look like?
Why can't we build a grade school where there used to be a grade school?
We could call it the Moline/Severy North/South Middle/Elementary School. All the teachers would be required to live in Moline or Severy. The bus drivers would all have to live in Grenola. Janitors will have to have some residence in Elk Falls. Students would be called MSNSES's.
Now let's all just try to get along.
Angie, I did remember the pledge but forgot the attendance. ???(First day was hectic) But I hope your little one had fun!
Quote from: gina on August 21, 2008, 05:28:48 AM
PEP, I have never in my life taken you seriously. lol
Ginababe,
If you are expecting any love from brother dear then I have failed you!!! Maybe if you were a CAT skid loader you'd have a chance.
Good Lord.. There is 2 of them thar' Perkins boys...
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/114.gif)
:D
There are actually three but we keep the third one beat down and flinging tacos till dark, and downing tall ones till dawn. He has a life.
I am just here untill the banker and taco flinger get tired of their real lives and deside to come back and take over the entire county
I am just the loudest. Not the biggest, or the smartest...............Just an A.D.P.
I know that there are 3... but I was referring to the 2 that are on here... :D
Taco Philip is still being smart and staying away for awhile.. Downing cool ones after hours seems much better than setting in an office and posting on the forum.. LOL
Don't know about the third Perky boy but know that the second one has a great daughter...something about those Perky men...they seem to have the ability to have great kids...of course, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that they chose fabulous women to marry, would it???
That's exactly it!! You said it ;D ;D
Is there a hip wader requirement for this area?
Nah...just a requirement that the Perky men remember to smile gratefully at those angels who put up with them! lol :laugh: :laugh:
I think one angel has horns also... they put up with them until they need something fixed, picked up, or let's see totally remodel the store three times while staying open the entire time cause we need to money to finance the remodel.........
Please send home some helpers that will work more than 8 hours a day. We could also use a new class at the high school. FACS needs to have an applied consumer food service lab. It will meet at Toot's every Monday from 4-8. Tardiness will be an assumed application to PEP ELECTRIC. Skipping class will be a community service requirement of 1 hour hauling out pigeon fertilizer for your new school building.
Shovels will be provided.
Any one need 12000 square feet of slightly used wood flooring. One price buys the entire lot.
Well it's been a week that the 6th graders have been attending class at the high school. I've been wondering how it's working out so far. Does anyone know?
My daughter likes the fact that there are no little kids running around all the time. The food is better at the high school than at Moline last year. There are more kids that have the same wants and needs together at one place. Doesn't want to go back to smaller class.
Good!
Now, let's check back at semester and see what Dad's opinion is... :o
You think Emily will have to carry her quarter jar around school with her (being around those HS kids)? :-X
Or are they separated enough from the older kids that they won't be prematurely influenced? :-\
The 6th graders are kept separate right now, to the point of almost being silly.
They don't even go into the building using the doors the junior high and high school students use. The sixth graders walk, with their teacher most of the time, around to the north door of the building and enter there. They eat breakfast after the other students are back in class.
Oh, good. I can imagine that quarter jar is getting awfully heavy for poor Emily to haul around everywhere. PEP lives in poverty while his kids are living in the lap of luxury off of his cuss-word quarters. ;D
I think they are doing a pretty good job keeping them separated. She hasn't asked what any new words mean yet and hasn't needed any quarters :). They have PE everyday and have a combined 6,7,8th grade band. Like Patrick said, she is really enjoying having more kids in her class. One year they only had 6! So far, so good.
It sounds like the 6th grade scheduling at WE is working out well. I'll bet the kids really aren't concerned whether they live in Moline or Severy or Grenola or Howard either. This may be a very positive step toward educating their parents and the communities about cooperation and compassion throughout the district.
They are using that same type of concept here in Edmond at the high schools this year with all the 9th graders being directed into separate facilities called Freshman Centers. We have a middle school concept (6th, 7th, and 8th), so the 9th graders are "thrown to the wolves" in these big high schools. They are on the same campus but with their own facilities and separate lunch schedules. The concept sounds great--hope it eliminates some of the problems the younger students usually have to deal with.
It sounds like the kids are enjoying it. I overheard one mom say that her 6th grades son's only comment after the first day of school was that the girls in his class were "hot"! (sorry pepelect, that might be scary to you) I'm glad that the kids are together in a bigger class, and that they get to have band together. Can 6th graders play in the pep band at football games? It would be fantastic to see a marching band, especially at a football game. Of course, they would probably have to get in line behind the dance team.
I do think that walking around to the north door is ridiculous. Wait until it rains or snows. Maybe they'll change their minds about that.
Let's change gears for a second. What if we don't build an assisted living in the old Howard grade school building after all.
What if we turn it back into a grade school?
Then create two assisted living campus in both Severy and Moline. They would need minimal work and there would be lots more money for both communities. There are more elderly than elementary age patrons in all three communities. It could go on the tax rolls instead of being part of the debit side of the ledger. Both populations have elderly living at home that should not be by themselves but do not need skilled nursing home care yet. The buildings already have communications, internet, tv, gym facility, lunchrooms, library and are both ada accessible.
That leaves the remodel of the grade school back into a grade school. You wouldn't have to build a new building. You could spend the money normally spent on steel and concrete on interior finishes. You would not have to give up a practice field. You would gain a gym, practice gym or both. It is in a quiet neighborhood.
You have good water, power, sewer, and highest priced gas in the area all available.
The is plenty of green space. It would take the same amount of work as an assisted living as far as the remodeling but you have a smaller need list. It is easiler to recreate 9 classrooms from 9 classrooms than to create 27 homes from 9 classrooms.
Not a bad idea Pep...........now lets see the masses run!
You'd never make it in government, PEP.
Only one new idea is allowed per year
:-)
.
I do like that idea, makes more sense to me than the reverse... Moline would still need an elevator if it were Assisted Living, but maybe everyone could work together and get a "deal" getting them for Moline, the old/new grade school building and the old bank building.
There goes my top floor, northwest corner apartment. Wah....................................... or as Teresa would put it, W-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-h. :'( :'( :'( :'(
Moline grade school already has an elevator.
We had a similar set up in Midland, TX as Karen described that Edmond, OK is doing. The only difference was that the 2 freshman campuses were completely away from the other schools. Our kids always said is was okay, but they didn't feel they belonged to any school. Late in the school year, they would bus the freshmen students to the "senior campuses" which contained 10, 11th and 12th grades, so they could meet the coaches, music and speech instructors that they would be studying under the following year. Sometimes, they also got to participate in concerts and sporting events with the "older" kids.
Myrna
Wilma why can't there still be penthouse lofts available in the top of the gradeschool?
I have an awesome set of tools.
Kinda takes Tobina's idea about grandparents as greaters to the ultimate. Grandparents as residents! ;)
The Moline elevator was part of the fix up the forty year old building before it falls completely down million dollar bandaid that we did to both MEG and SGS a few years ago.
The only bad part of construction on a remodel is the part that you don't remodel. You still have old school building problems with new building amenities. Uninsulated glass, no central ac, and no solar panels could all be dealth with.
Like parking, wheel chair access from the front door off the bus, of course we don't have an ADA bus in district, food service not reheat rehydrate service, and the trailerhouses north west of the front door can't all be fixed with a little grey matter.
The more I think about this the better is sounds. If you send your kids to school you want them to hang out with the smartest and the ones that will stay out of trouble. But what if there was some built in role models that were hanging around for little johnnie to bond with? What better group than a mildly used up mob of retiries to spice up the hallways. Who would run in the hall if you risked knocking down someone with a walker? I bet one of two things would happen. The kids would shape up and fly right or the geezers would have their baggie pants at half mast and a new tat to text about to the grandkids. I can just see back tatoos half price after coffee at parking lot beside toots for the "seniors."
Senior trip might take on an entire new focus.
Funny Pep...........very funny,
Didn't I read somewhere in the local paper that a school (or class) was using a nursing home at Coffeyville as a classroom.
May have been a pre-school.
but, I don't see the problem as LONG as there is a "time out" place for both ages.
Then screening would need to be done to protect each age group.
keep the ideas coming..........just wonder how much 'Pipe Dreaming' this is?
Judy
There's a school down here that IS putting their preschoolers and k'gartners in rooms at a nursing home. They say it is good for the kids and the residents both, the old folks like havin the kids around and the kids can learn from the residents. Sounds like it might be a good idea
Sounds good to me. Especially if it is the kid's own grandparents that are in the halls. We are a tough old bunch.
PEP, I was reserving the roof for a roof garden. Of course the elevator would have to go to the roof, too. BUT, penthouses sound good to me. One of my doors could open directly to the garden. Of course, that woud mean one more employee to maintain the garden and keep the old people from going over the edge.
Pep, you are right on the money about the walkers in school. One of the older teachers at Stanton Middle here uses a rolling walker. She has been mowed down a time or two, but generally the kids are very protective of her and won't put up with any nonsense when she is out in the hall.
Hey Judy, I knew I had seen that story on the news down here, I found the story on KOAMs website:
Nina Criscuolo
Laughter is Combating Depression in Coffeyville
Updated: Aug 30, 2008 09:51 PM CDT
Doctors often say the best medicine is laughter and in Coffeyville, Kansas -- that laughter comes in a child size dose.
They have decided to combine their retirement home and kindergarten class to fight the loneliness and depression that sometimes occurs when an elder goes to nursing home.
The Coffeyville superintendent says he was skeptical at first, but seeing is believing.
He now believes the children revitalize the residents with their energy and the elderly are giving their gift as well.
"Sometimes we don't look at the value that they can bring to kids," said Superintendent Robert Morton. "And so they've lived through a lifetime of things so they have a lifetime of knowledge and we probably can learn something from that knowledge."
The teacher for the program says grandma and grandpa reading is the student's favorite part of the day.
One year in Wichita a nursing home there had a North Pole program at Christmas time. During several hours a day, the children could call and talk to Santa, Mrs. Claus or one of the elves. The kids loved it as did the Nursing home residents. The AD who thought that one up should have received a raise at the very least. A reading program between residents and students would be great. Maybe Twilight Manor should be the bus stop waiting depot, where the kids wait to change buses.
We have to do something to entertain you old coots other wise you will continue to drive slow and keep asking me about the weather. How about taking the Twlight manor residents to all the schools in the area. Starting with Longton and ending up in Severy. Have them tutor, teach, watch or just be involved with the energy that those little demons put out there.
The chinese have one thing over on us they keep there eldery within the household. Granted it isn't a very big house but they all live in there together. Most asian cultures honor the eldery much more than we do. Warehousing and isolating them is what we are famous for. I think the more program we start the more help we can do.....
I don't pipe dream........Build it and they will come.
Maybe this old coot likes to be isolated. Those energetic little angels wear me out.
You reap what you sew. I bet they take a nap as soon as they get home probably elder influence.
Why is the Moline grade school being locked down every day? Why isn't Severy or Howard so secure?
Have we had an incident? Are we scared? Under attack?
Need to explain this to me like I have small children.....How is locking the door in a town of less than 500 in a county of less than 3000 going to make my kids smarter? Maybe we need armed security to walk the halls looking for evildoers.
How do I explain to my children that prison is way different than gradeschool? They have TV's that work in prison. Paranoia is just the beginning, soon we will have a sighting. Then we can start building the bunkers. After the airport is converted to militia control we can be more prepared because they came by air the last time.
HUH?
Since I am all locked on this subject anyway. Why is the school always locked up? Why can't taxpayers use the gym and hallways anytime we want. We have the title, we paid for it, why can't we use it? Don't the state, federal, and local taxes that I paid pay the salaries and the insurance policy of the building? Even if I jump through the hoops of renting the building for an event should I have to pay again to use something that I already bought and paid for? I think the lease holder should not also be the
Isn't that called double taxation without representation? Didn't we have a revolutionary war over the same type of issue a couple of years ago?
A good example of 2 opposite sides of the coin exist within 30 miles of our booming metropolis. For example...
Longton has an "open gym" on Sunday nights, open to anyone to come and play sports or walk around the gym. To my knowledge, they have had no one sue them for a twisted ankle or heavy breathing, nor has any damages been done to the school. In fact, I think the community is more involved in the school and the kids.
On the other side... Sedan has had some serious issues lately with vandalism, break-ins, and theft at their school. I think they are getting heavier security measures in place, and I doubt they are very trusting of letting anyone into the school outside of school hours.
So, I think WE should be somewhere in between. (Notice how the initials for West Elk, also spell "We"? As in "all of us"? As in unity?) I respect that the school has a process to go through to rent the school, and that you need to have a sponsor from the school to be there, but I don't like the fact that they charge so much (we pay $30 for 2 hours every Sunday night of volleyball/basketball)... or charge at all. Why not bridge the gap between school and community and eliminate this cost for community members? As long as there is no extra work for the school to set up or clean up, why the cost? I guarantee that the school sponsor isn't the one getting paid for being there.
I do know a little bit about the charging thing. The FlintHills Assembly of God Church in Howard and the Ministrial Alliance brought the Power Team to town a few years ago. The did charge the church to use the school. But was told that Longton does not charge. Does anyone know anything about this?? I also think that Longton lets the 4-H use the building, not sure if they charge, free??? It cost around $100.00 if you are going to use the kitchen area, or something like that. I think that it probably has something to do with insurance, but not sure.
I believe the rational for locking all doors except the front door is so that there is a forced flow to the public as they enter the building, thus enabling the office to better monitor those entering the physical plant. Believe me...when you stop to consider the nuts who travel 99 and 160, there'll probably be a copycat who tries to pull the same crap as was pulled in Wichita recently...someone trying to make off with a kid. Be glad that at least Moline takes proactive measures, instead of having to explain how a child was abducted due to lax security measures.
I will tell you that Severy is locked also, not just Moline. I am not positive if the highschool is but I think it is. One reason is to have a visitors enter one way so that we know who is entering. Also thinking about school bombings, invasions, etc, they don't always happen in big communities. Actually most of the time they don't happen in a big community. That is one reason why we lock the doors for safety reasons.
So answer my question how is my child getting smarter by locking the doors?
We don't have seat belts in the buses so safety is only as safe as you want to be. It is a state law that anyone under 14 must have a booster/car seat but they can run wild on a school bus. We don't have metal detectors. We don't even do background checks on staff.
No one tried to make off with a kid in Wichita. A father tried to pickup his son and was confused with another with the same name. Locks don't keep dangerous people out of any where. They are like locking you car...It makes you feel better but it actually does no good. The doors are locked even on the front doors.
Law enforcement didn't even have a key before the doors were locked. Are we scared of the po po also?
I think we need to worry about school stuff, reading, writing, quadradic equations, and the like leaving the law enforcement to those who are better qualified.
Where can we post the quiz scores?
Test results would make better headlines in my opinion than how the football or volleyball team did this week.
Why not post a weekly honor roll?
Give students a chance to shine where it really matters in the grey area.
Flunk a test post it on the forum... I am sure there are plenty of tutors available if you only asked.....Having trouble with biology? Need to diagram a protein? Who says that double bonding is not an electrical term?
We have a proven track record. Just look at how much the spelling has improved with just three anal judges and a entire electronic community (jury).
Pep, I for one am glad that the school doors are locked during school hours. You are correct that a locked door probably would not keep someone out if they really wanted in, but you have to wonder if a locked door might have changed the outcome of the shootings in that college last year or the slayings of the Amish children in the one room schoolhouse awhile back. As long as disturbed people are about and have free access to weapons we need to protect the least among us to the best of our ability. I would not want the children exposed to an armed camp on a daily basis though, but it doesn't hurt to be cautious.
I really like your idea of publishing successful students; but would think twice about publishing failures. Publish the improvers however; it is easier for some to achieve in the academic world than it is for others. Use puzzles freely if you think the young ones will profit from them. They will be the problem solvers of the future, and if they can sort through a make believe problem(puzzles), then they will be able to resolve real problems. Demonstrate the use of mathematics in real life; what percentage of inflation do we now have? How does it affect us? Calculate wages lost/gained, etc. You seem to be someone the kids look up to and like to challenge. Throw it back at them. Later----- PS How much have we lost in the stock market the past two days?
You learn more from flunking a test then you ever do from passing one.....If you have been taught how to deal with both.
Saying that some people achieve in the academic world more than others is what is wrong with our society. If you can't do something then you need to get better at that thing. If you are just told that it is alright to suck at math then how are you ever going to be good at math. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it is not doable. Work harder. We are still talking about the acedemics.
Why would the good grades get more press than the bad? I have a puzzle for you how does an underachieving student become a overproductive adult? If work ethic or drive are not layed as a foundation then what do you have to build on?
Explain it to me as if I have never flunked a test........
So what happens when you post a kids name for failing a test and he/she gets picked on and made fun of until he/she drops out of school? Then the kid comes back a few months later through the doors you just unlucked and goes on a shooting rampage?
These are our children, high school can be a very difficult time for some of them. Not all kids are created equal. They don't see things the same way as adults do. As a parent in today's world, I think we need to do everything possible to keep our kids safe. Life isn't the same as it was 20 years ago or even 10 years age.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on September 17, 2008, 10:10:51 PM
Pep, I for one am glad that the school doors are locked during school hours. You are correct that a locked door probably would not keep someone out if they really wanted in, but you have to wonder if a locked door might have changed the outcome of the shootings in that college last year or the slayings of the Amish children in the one room schoolhouse awhile back. As long as disturbed people are about and have free access to weapons we need to protect the least among us to the best of our ability. I would not want the children exposed to an armed camp on a daily basis though, but it doesn't hurt to be cautious.
No a locked door wouldn't have prevented shootings on the virginia campus, nor would it have stopped the amish slaughter.
What would have stopped them or minimized the possibility of the slaughters is if the 21 year old COLLEGE kids, adults
were to have had their handguns and could have shot the hell out of that guy before he made it to where he slaughtered everyone
He was seen walking through the campus with the gun in hand.
The amish kids, would have been saved if they would have had a good ole fashioned shotgun you know.
When i went to school i brought my .22 to school every mon, wed, and friday with a box of ammo. left it up at the principals office and went and retrieved it when we went out back target practicing.
Quote from: pepelect on September 17, 2008, 10:23:07 PM
Why would the good grades get more press than the bad? I have a puzzle for you how does an underachieving student become a overproductive adult? If work ethic or drive are not layed as a foundation then what do you have to build on?
I would have to agree with ya somewhat. We should expect good grades. It shouldn't be a major celebration when it
happens. I believe in some recognition as a atta boy is always a good thing for folks, helps them try harder.
What should be pressed is when students don't try. There are more that don't try than there are that don't have the ability
to achieve. Set the goal high and expect them to meet that goal or exceed that goal. If you set the bar low, you get low results.
Personal opinion - I don't think anything needs published. I have never believed in the "honor roll" being published and this being said by a mother of three daughters who were always on the honor roll. Yes, these students have done an excellent job. Half of them never even cracked a book to get that A while the student that slipped by with a low C crammed every night. ALL students need to be praised for the work they do and that praise should be from THEIR PARENTS AND THEIR TEACHERS and let it go at that. The public is not raising that child or teaching that child so why does all this need to be published in the paper? At the end of school there are awards for those students who deserve an achievement award be it All A's, best citizen, most books read, most improved, perfect attendance, best speller, etc. That should be enough. I don't think public ridicule (ie publishing low grades) will make that student achieve higher grades. Maybe, just maybe, he's doing the best he can. ALL PERSONS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL. There, I've stated my personal opinion. Aren't you suprised that I would do that? :D
Security at the schools cannot ever be taken too lightly. Having one unlocked entrance during the day where visitors check in is only making sense in today's world. Whether you're dealing with big city schools or small town schools, there is always the potential for disaster if that "one unbalanced/angry/spiteful" person decides to create havoc in a school. No parent or citizen should begrudge having to take the time to check in and follow the safe procedures for the security of all students, faculty, staff members, and administrators.
Quote from: patyrn on September 18, 2008, 10:21:44 AM
"one unbalanced/angry/spiteful" person
Or a divorced parent who doesn't have custody and takes the kid from school. I think you see more of that than the gun-wielding crazies.
I don't remember there having been an honor roll while I was in school, so when was the honor roll created? Isn't it supposed to be something for the students to strive for, to show that they are a cut above? And when did it become popular to not show your intelligence, to pretend that you are something that you are not? "Dumb" students are maybe ridiculed, but it seems that if a student is smart it is something to ridicule, too. Maybe that is why our schools are turning out mediocre students while foreign students are far ahead of ours. OK, I will stop now before I start preaching.
What I intended to say is that grades should be as important as being the star football player, or the head cheerleader, or the homecoming queen. But when do we ever hear about the grades that our students are getting if it isn't through who made the honor roll? Better stop again.
I totally agree with you on that one Wilma!! We put to much importants on what sports are child plays, how good they are, if they are a cheerleader, and the list goes on and on. WE at our house, put lots of pride in our children's grades. They have a new system at the school that allows the parents to go on the internet and check their childrens grades. My oldest one hates that. I can go on anytime that I wish, to see how she is performing in school on her subjects. She knows this, too. Because I can also print out the grades and show her what she has. She HAS to at least get A's and B's. I would rather them be all A's, but I know that she has always struggled with math. That is usually the one that gets her down. Last summer, I requested that she go to summer school to help her with her Math. She seems to be getting more confidence in the subject. This is why she has a hard time with Math.
Ok, I am on the soap again. But Honor Rolls are a good thing. I have always tried to tell my children that getting good grades are a good thing. They do have honor rolls at the Elementary levels. Don't know why they are not put in the paper every 9 weeks???
I think it's
very important for kids to get praise besides from their teachers and their parents. Maybe I'm just young enough that I remember the thrill of some older woman or man coming up to me in the grocery store or at the gas station and complimenting me on my grades or performance on the court or asking me what Model UN was. Publishing sporting events and grades and other school activities alike help keep the community involved in the school and the kids. Starting with a compliment over something they read in the paper about the kid just opens up the communication line between adults and kids. Heck, the bank in my town goes through the paper EVERY WEEK and cuts out articles on every single person who does business at their bank and sends them a hand-signed card with the article in it. I even got one from them for my wedding announcement (and I hadn't lived in town for over 8 years)!
Quote from: flo on September 18, 2008, 09:34:47 AM
The public is not raising that child or teaching that child so why does all this need to be published in the paper?
And I highly disagree with this statement. You've heard of the saying "it takes a village"? That's the best draw of a small town! The fact that if your kids do well, everyone can find out about it. And if they do something bad, it will get back to the parents. Whether you know it or not, everyone is raising every child in town. Our actions, our responses, the way we treat the kids, the way we participate in activities... it all sends a message to our kids! And you wonder why kids aren't coming back to the community when they get out of college or have a job? Why would they come back a community that didn't care about them all through school?
I disagree with PEP's idea of posting the bad grades for sure, but I really think it's important to make public the excellences of the children in our community! It's not putting someone down; the kids that don't make Honor Roll may be in the paper the next week for some other activity they're involved in. I think the paper should cover (and Rudy et al does a good job of this) ALL activities of the schools; sporting and non-sporting. Bad bahavior will also get appropriate coverage; in the police section.
PEP is a troll. He instigates cuz he loves the fallout.
Tobina: What police section?
You have a point there. There used to be a section but for some reason it was discontinued. All we get now is who got tickets and for what. Nothing about emergency calls, accidents, etc. The sheriff that used to be saw to it that major incidents were covered.
I miss that too! (The police section)
Yeah, I guess it does only show tickets and deeds. My hometown where I grew up has started putting all Police, Sheriff, and EMS responses in the paper, along with the total 911 calls for each day (no names, just type of response... cattle out, domestic disturbance, etc). It's about 2 months later, but it's published. Maybe they just needed "filler" in the paper.
Point is... good kids should get good publicity. Honor roll, awards, sports, activities, community service, etc. The Cuffer Clan does a fine job of doing that, I think.
You REALLY want to go there?
I just want the same energy put in to education that is being wasted on security. How much does it cost to re-key a lock?
How much is an A worth?
We have teachers that are living with no pay increases, teaching more students, and still teaching better than 95% of the schools in the state but we have to spend time to worry about security?
One campus would be ten times easier to secure than three. 2/3 as many doors means one third as many potential entrance points.
How about giving the little vandals something to do rather than beat the crap out of property. Why can't we unlock the doors and give them something to do when school is not in session. If Longton can keep their brand new remodeled school from burning down by letting the public use it than that is a good model for WE.
Why are you against public access to bad grades? Have you ever seen a traffic citation for good driving published in the coveted police section?
Good news is boring and not worthy of reporting it doesn't put ink to paper.
Quote from: Tobina on September 18, 2008, 11:39:23 AM
Quote from: patyrn on September 18, 2008, 10:21:44 AM
"one unbalanced/angry/spiteful" person
I take offense to the statement that all of us unbalanced/angry people are spiteful. I may be hateful, rude, and sarcastic but never spiteful.
We have 24hour news about death, destruction, and a good homicide all sell more papers than one math quiz or a PT test result.....if a child is so emotionally unstable that a published math score sends him/her over the edge than the entire system is very, very flawed. You are not reaching the kid if the peer pressure is greater than the parental or teachers influence. We are failures as a society if we can not show both the positive and the negative and grow from both.
Peer pressure is the weakest excuse I have ever heard. I have been told about this so called weakness that everyone else has since I was 10 years old. I don't believe in it. Just like sheep being lead to slaughter. We don't have a brain so we just go with the flow. If someone thinks that we are stupid then we must be. If peers think I am fat than I must be. If you think I am a victim than I must be.
Peer pressure can also be used in a positive way. ;)
It sounds like there may be some confusing of the terms "peer pressure" and "bullying" here...the one can lead to the other but the two are not the same entity. Patrick...adults use peer pressure all the time in order to either keep things the same as they've always been, force change, or make sure that their's is the main voice speaking even though there's a whole room needing to be heard...it's no different in a school. And, yes, peer pressure can be utilized in an effective fashion when the educator is astute enough to know how to be the one doing the manipulating, instead of being the one who is being manipulated by the students. Egregious/over-the-top events (like Columbine HS) happen when bullying has been so pervasive that the students didn't see any other way out...rather like a collective suicide combined with mass revenge. And, yes indeed, it is the job of both the school and society at large to make sure that the students have been educated in the coping strategies required for these events...because peer pressure and bullying don't end when the person exceeds 21 years of age...it's just that the bullies get more sophisticated in their methods...more covert, rather than honestly open about their tendencies.
I haven't said anything on this thread.. I feel way too many emotions to talk without pissing half the town off..
but I will say this..
To publicly degrade a child for his bad grades does not and will do anything but make that child more sad, embarrassed and frustrated. It will tear down any self confidence he had or is trying to internally have.
If school work and learning comes easy to you.. then by all means..stand up and shout to the world that EVERYONE should be able to do the work..and advertise and point the fingers at those who can't.
Bad grades are not necessarily a product of a lazy or rebellious person. Sometimes it is the TEACHING METHOD involved.
Example.. ( and I will use my family publicly as an example)
Danny was easily an A-B student. Classwork came easy to him.. ( He could have been a straight A student if he had totally put his mind to it. He carried this grade point and still played every sport.. and all other extra curricular activity.
He rarely had homework and I never ever had to ask him or tell him to do his homework. He was like me in the area of writing. It came so easy to him and to set down and write a 1,000 word paper was a snap. So to compliment him on his good work in school was a proud thing. I had no problem with that. He did the work.. he deserved the credit.
On the other hand..Derek had a very very high IQ at a very early age. But in a different way than his brother. And he was an excellent reader..with a huge % retainment in what he read. But he had a problem with getting it from his brain to the paper. If they ask him a question he could give them a correct and in-detail answer. But to have him write it all down, he struggled and finally said " to hell with it".. and eventually had a "who cares .. I know it.. and I don't care if they think I do or not" attitude. End result.... a smart child.. bad grades. But to publicly humiliate and frustrate him more by posting those grades in the newspapers would have done no good. He was so over the top in the mechanical gifts that he put everyone to shame.. ( still is) But of course, those things you couldn't test on or post in the paper.
Kate Perkins was the 'angel' who finally figured it out. She told me that he was very intelligent and you could have a conversation about anything with him and he knew something about it. She did a private testing of him first ..the standard way that they had to use in the public school system... and then orally. The same test... different methods.
He flunked the written way and Aced the oral..
I went around and around fighting with the school on this.. They refused to deviate from " the way subjects are taught and the way that students are tested. " So consequently..Derek struggled and had bad grades. and a horrible rebellious attitude to boot.
He finally was so frustrated in his senior year that Roger Rankin suggested he just take a GED. He did and he did so good that he was ranked the 2nd to the top of his testing scores in the whole state of Kansas..
*Just for the record.. I was one of those who ..when I was in nursing school.. could read about it.. and not comprehend anything.. ( D-F on written tests) Not that I couldn't write.. I just couldn't read it and get anything out of it. But on the hours and days on the floor watching surgeries etc ...to see it done.. I could write in detail exactly how the procedure was done..complete with all the surgical instruments used. ( A on the test) I am a total hands on person.
So there is many reasons why each person is different. I do not think that you should stifle those accomplishments of the kids who make the good grades. Post them on the honor roll by all means.. They should be proud of their accomplishments..
But maybe also have other kinds of accomplished posted too. Shop projects.. personal projects done at school.. etc.. ANYTHING that a child does well in whatever area.... to help boost and encourage kids to be the best they can be. And to maybe push themselves a bit harder in areas that they are not strong in. And if they are excellent farmers.. praise that.. If they can rebuild motors.. praise that. If you have a girl who is an awesome seamstress or who can cook.. praise that.. same goes for being very very strong in math and really really bad in history... PRAISE the good and encourage them to try in the other things. ( you get my drift)
Today.. anyone who knows Derek and Danny knows that both boys/men are equally successful in their jobs and lives.
Danny is a business financial whiz and can work numbers and stats til your head spins. He also is very strong in other areas that has suited him in his business ventures.
Derek is a successful business partner with his dad in the hardware store .. and also has created ,owns, runs and operates D&M Guns. ( And both are phenomenal fathers and husbands. )
So to "label a child because they are not what someone thinks is " the norm" is..... (http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/bsflag.gif)
I'm finished and I will go in now and make my yeast rolls for Derek's birthday supper tonight.. Thanks for listening. :)
You are so right, Teresa. And there is a name for the disability that makes a person unable to put on paper what they know in their brain. I can't think of it now, but if I go back a few years in my e-mails from a nephew, I might be able to find it. It doesn't make them a dumb person. I know one of these people and she knows so much (mostly trivia) but is unable to put it down. Tests just paralyze her because she knows she won't do good on them.
I don't see a solution for this unless the school does something about it. But I would like more acknowledgment of accomplishment than just the honor role.
The term might be disgraphia.
There are many children growing up today that have horrid home lives; either drug, alcohol, physical, sexual or psychological abuses from their parents. The parents are the ones that are supposed to care the most about them. If they can't get the nurturing that they need at home, it is just about impossible for them to care about what's going on at school. If their parents don't show they care about them then why should they try. It's is sad to think about what some kids have to live like, but it is a reality even in little Elk County. To publish these childrens' bad grades would do so much more harm than good!
Quote from: Catwoman on September 19, 2008, 07:14:12 PM
The term might be disgraphia.
Uhm disgraphia is where you reverse the letters like a s is backwards or a R is backwards.
Dyslexia is where the words are jumbled. i don't know what kind of disorder it would be other than
testophobia.
I went to school with a gal who convinced the instructor of a particularly difficult course that she had a hard time testing with other people present in the room. He actually allowed her to test finals in a room by herself with no monitors. Of course she bragged later how easy it was to use her crib notes and ace the test. It takes all kinds doesn't it? :laugh: :laugh:
I have fired many people that probably cheated on a test. They show up to work late, always on the phone, and don't give a crap expept for when the paychecks will be written.
It takes all kinds.
They were looking for a job when they found this one.
It is very frustrating to very bright kids who know they know, but can't organize their thoughts to get it on paper. I had several students who had it and they did better on multiple choice tests or true/false tests. I would sometimes give them an oral test and then help them translate their answer to written form.
Who cares about the exceptions I am talking about the regular old kid who would do better something pushed them over the achievement hump. We have bright kids and dumb kids. If you don't challenge the bright kids they burn out, if you don't reach the dumb kid then the bring a gun to school and kill 27 people? I don't follow your psychotic logic. So why do we publish the losers score of a football game. Why are there world records? Why do some people make more money than others? You can't say anything negative and stress the positive then where in society is this pampered brat going to find gainful employment. We are not communist or socialists are we? The collective has to prosper to keep the brightest beat down and the dimmest pumped up.
Explain it to me as if I really was listening.
I see in the paper today that the Bluestem football team did make the news when they done good same as when they were not good at all. YEA! they won after 69 losses. ;) Go Lions!
Quote from: pepelect on September 19, 2008, 10:20:36 PM
I have fired many people that probably cheated on a test. They show up to work late, always on the phone, and don't give a crap expept for when the paychecks will be written.
It takes all kinds.
They were looking for a job when they found this one.
I was taking my final exam for graduation in electronics school. Friend of mine and I were sitting next to each other and
we both observed this guy from poland flipping his notebook open and then closing it and answering the test. I got infuriated
with it. When I got up to turn my test in, i told the instructor that he was cheating on the test and i wasn't going to tolerate it
when i worked my arse off to maintain my 4.0 GPA in that school.
Instructor watched him for about 10 min, walked over grabbed his test his notebook and told him to exit the room and don't
come back.
Ok, what Julia said about the environment has alot to do with how well children do in school. There are really smart out there who don't try and don't get good grades and there are kids out there who try hard and can't get the grades. But I still feel that putting out a list that says who flunked a test is very wrong. The kids that are trying hard and still flunk the test will probably just shut down completely. What are you accomplishing then??? You are just making that already frustrated student more frustrated. I feel, as a former teacher, you should teach to the highest student in the class. This will help to bring up the lower students and in turn help the higher students also. You can also do peer teaching, that is a great thing to help the lower students bring their grades up. I also feel that you can't just teach the same way to all students. Teachers need to modify their teaching to touch every student. Many of the teachers here do do that. I do know that some classes as a whole have less high achievers than others. I know in Parker class, they are very competative. They strive to beat other students on test scores, reading, and also all other academic areas. This is a good thing!! They won't settle for being average. They want to go for it all. But you have other classes that just don't have much academic abilities.
Pep, I see where you are coming from. But to tell you the truth, just because a person flunks a test it doesn't mean that they won't be successful in their life. I feel that many students feel that just because they didn't get all A's or B's that they aren't college material. That is so very untrue. College is such a different ball game than high school. They do have the requirements that they must take, but when they are done with those, they then can take the classes that go towards their degree. I think that parents need to stress this to students.
Ok, I got off and forgot to touch base with what Julie said. I don't think that people in this community realize the number of students that come from really bad homes. They struggle every moment at home and school is the only place that they can get away from the pain and torment that is happening to them at their home. This is such a task for teachers today. You have students that are passes around from place to place, people to people, and they just don't know where they belong. Schools are becoming more of a place to feel safe and secure than a place for learning. That makes it tough on the teachers, because the teachers know what they are going through at home, but they know that they must learn at school, too. Do you know that teachers, these days, are teaching students much more than they had to know when I was a kid. Teachers have to be the role models, mothers, fathers, caregivers, friends, and also teach their students. Not that teachers didn't do this when I was a kid, but the world is so much different then it used to be.
Enough of my going on and on, but you can tell that I am very passionate about learning and education.
I think that when you get down to the nuts and bolts of this, the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 (FERPA) would prevent this from happening anyway.
I don't know how the schools are setup here, but being one of those who flunked tests all the time, it was not because
i was dumb as a rock, it was because i couldn't do the test the way the establishment wanted it. For example,
in math, the teacher used to write an equation on the board, algebra, trig, geometry and i could answer it by the
time she finished writing. But when i was asked to show the work, i couldn't do it, it just totally confused me.
That ment i got all the answers right on tests but failed the tests.
I took 2 semesters in college and flunked out on business law, accounting, and a couple other classes but when i went
to electronics school i graduated with a 4.0 gpa.
What my question is, is do the schools here have curriculum for students geared towards their natural abilities.
For example, i have 6 kids. 1 was a natural electronics wiz, 1 a photobug, 1 of my sons anything he wanted but joined marines,
another one of my sons is mechanically inclined and a wiz at anything mechanical. He joined marines and recieved a medical discharge. My 5th son excelled in agriculture class, and my last son joined the army.
Not everyone is college material, not everyone can pass tests or do work but know the information and can get the answers. The key is to educate towards the aptitude of each individual and then if they wish to go elsewhere obtain it in higher education instead of popping them into a one size fits all mold.
Perfectly said! :)
ya, ya, ya, and I was bullied at school.....not.
Public school should not have to be set up like a magnet. If you want to learn ballet go to a ballet school. If you want to get in touch with your inter child go to KU or some other waste of good granite.
Good job Bluestem football you are out of the gutter. WE held that distinction in the past. WE has a better athletic program now but I haven't seen a Rhode Scholar yet.
But I think that WE should and does cater to the regular old stupid kid. We have a special education budget that is 60% of the entire school. Still we have made improvement and NCLB benchmarks. But what happens next year. If you have good students, good scores, and good teachers, then what do you do to improve? It is call Annual Yearly Progress. If you are not meeting AYP you can lose your funding. Less stupid than last year gets funding. Good but not better gets the shaft.
The system is not set up to reward teaching the most inovative or out side the box type of structure. If you could get more funding more programs would be created. But this is the real world, I am constantly reminded on other channels, if you send 1/4 of you students out of district than 1/4 of your funding goes with them.
Why are we not stealing students from other districts? What is so wrong with our system that is driving away our Patriots?
Couldn't we grab a couple of cubs before they become Lions?
If we took a couple of small devils they would not become so sad.
I don't know why we can't get more kids from other districts. One reason that I can think of is that we don't have an open door policy like other schools around. We did get the Young family into the district. They are pretty good kids, too. But in the same sense we have students that leave our schools and go to others, too. Do you know I addressed this issue to the school board before about loosing students to Longton, do you know they didn't even know it was happening. How could they not? They have to O.K. in district students attending out of district schools and vice versa.
We can't get kids from other districts because we don't market our selves very well. I am the biggest portrayer of negativity that ever graduated from the WEHS but I still have never seen a positive image sent out across district lines. What are we providing that you can't get at Longton, Burden, Eureka, Cedar Vale, Dexter, or Fredonia? Why wouldn't you want to be in a smaller classroom? Who cares if the teachers are exceptional? We offer every sport imaginable aside from tennis. The swim team needs more funding. Golf could use a local venue.
There are some great assets that never make the paper.
Why do we only hear about the windows being broken out, stores being vandalized, mail boxes smashed, and score of the ballgames?
How many students go to college from WE? How many stay? How prepared to go to the next level of the real world do students feel after five years, ten years, longer? What kind and how many dollars worth of scholarships are available every year to the graduates?
Is the vocational program doing enough to prepare those who choose not to pursue post-secondary education? Can we balance a check book? Do we realize that credit has to be paid back? Is the industial arts giving enough creativity not structure to ensure the artistic vision of the youth is used thoughout their lives? Can we read a tape measure?
Is a color pallet a pallet with cans of paint stacked on it?
The primary reasons for WE not being able to attract students: (1) Lack of industry that would entice the adults with children to move; and (2) Lack of amenities for the people once they get there. It's the same problem that faces WE every time they try to attract qualified professionals to the educational system in Elk County.
Good questions, Patrick. All of them. No, a color palette is not a palette with cans of paint stacked on it. I looked it up.
Quote from: pepelect on September 23, 2008, 07:36:51 PM
Good job Bluestem football you are out of the gutter. WE held that distinction in the past. WE has a better athletic program now but I haven't seen a Rhode Scholar yet.
But I think that WE should and does cater to the regular old stupid kid. We have a special education budget that is 60% of the entire school. Still we have made improvement and NCLB benchmarks. But what happens next year. If you have good students, good scores, and good teachers, then what do you do to improve? It is call Annual Yearly Progress. If you are not meeting AYP you can lose your funding. Less stupid than last year gets funding. Good but not better gets the shaft.
The system is not set up to reward teaching the most inovative or out side the box type of structure. If you could get more funding more programs would be created. But this is the real world, I am constantly reminded on other channels, if you send 1/4 of you students out of district than 1/4 of your funding goes with them.
Why are we not stealing students from other districts? What is so wrong with our system that is driving away our Patriots?
Couldn't we grab a couple of cubs before they become Lions?
If we took a couple of small devils they would not become so sad.
This system has many flaws, its run like your typical run of the mill government.
Lets go back....
School district Superintendent and higherarchy got raises, Special teachers get $15,000 raises
WE cant settle teachers contract because of lack of funds, and hey they dont want to raise taxes.
City wants to raise taxes $200,000 to tear down someones
Now lets think about this, City wants to raise taxes to tear down wealthy citizens property so they dont have to, but WE cant raise taxes to increase the standard of living for teacher. GEE why would anyone want to move here to be a teacher
4 Teachers quit, cant find new ones to late in the year and pay sucks, 1000 jobs in kansas teaching system. anyone know the website.
Rearrange school idea,
Does anyone know what the school higherarchy is getting paid? We know what public officials make, what senators make, what people working minimum wage jobs make, what teachers make, why dont we know was they make?????
Bussing system is horrible. Kids have to get on 2 hours before school because they live 10 minutes away. (scratching head) this doesnt make sense.
"Why do we only hear about the windows being broken out, stores being vandalized, mail boxes smashed, and score of the ballgames? "
Because WEST ELK & ELK COUNTY REVOLVE AROUND SPORTS. TO ANYONE NEW HERE WE DO NOT PUNISH ATHLETES. THEY CAN BREAK OUT WINDOWS, VANDALIZE STORES, PLAY MAILBOX BASEBALL, LEAVE THEIR ALCOHOL BOTTLES WHERE EVER THEY LIKE, PARTY AT THE BRIDGES OUTSIDE OF TOWN, PLAY THEIR LOUD THUMPING MUSIC, NOT WORK BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS PAY FOR ANYTHING THEY NEED, NOT TAKE TESTS, DONT DO HOMEWORK, SKIP SCHOOL WHENEVER THEY WANT, HAVE KIDS OF THEIR OWN IN HIGH SCHOOL, DROP OUT AND STILL PLAY SPORTS OR JUST SAY THE KIDS ARENT THEIRS, THE GIRL IS A LIAR,
If we want to promote the area for adults to move here all we need do is make a commercial, kind of like the one on tv for that other city with the really good schools, drawing a blank
Alright, Commercial.
We Can show the kids doing all the activities above, and then a football game, and say "Elk county has the best school system in the state of KS because we pass the kids as long as they bring home championships, then show the track team.
and for funding if we take 1/4 of student out of the system and send them to, lets say longton, then that funding goes with them. Hey heres an Idea, knew my name meant something, This isnt wichita you dont have a choice where you go to school, You live in howard you go to West elk, You live in Severy you go to west elk, you live in moline you go to west elk, There shouldnt be a choice, if you live in the northern half of howard and north you go to severy e, the southern half and south go to moline e. This would solve a huge problem with the busing i Mentioned before, because kids have to be bussed from near severy all the way to moline e. because their babysiitter is in moline.
Another Idea, hang on hear me out. Im not a rocket scientist, I probably couldve work on the atomic bomb, with Ideas like this.
Cut The School day week to 4 days, Think about how much money this would save.
One less day heating or cooling school to compfortable level, One less day filling buses up, One less day paying busdrivers, para's, secretaries, cooks, cleaners, janitors. All the money saved, you could pay teachers more which in turn would draw more teachers here for jobs, better teachers, better schools, New residents moving here paying more taxes, new business better road surfaces, tourists.
But then again, Why would we want to do it someone might have to work....
Idea you got it right on the nose!!!
They don't have 4 day a week school, but they do have at least 1-2 days a month of "lights out" in all the schools to help cut costs. Even the teachers can't go in and work on planning. Lights out.
I think the sports rant was a little harsh. Did you see the kids standing on the sideline the first game because they didn't make it to practice on Labor Day (or call the coach to tell them they'd be gone, at least)? Sports teaches teamwork. Sports teaches kids they have a job every day after school and they have to be on time or 5 laps around the track. Sports teaches sportsmanship. Sports teaches curfew. How many school shooters were star sports players? Or even played in sports at all?
PARENTS teach drinking. PARENTS teach irresponsible behavior. PARENTS teach lack of respect to others' property. Underage kids drinking out in the country? Call the sherrif, and then call the parents, and then call the coaches. I'm betting at least 1 of the 3 will care. If the kids aren't in sports, that's only 2 to care. If the kids are in sports AND on the debate team, that's 4 people to care. FFA? One more adult to care. Getting it yet?
I played sports, was the Vice-President of FCCLA (formerly known as FHA), on the Flag Team, in FFA and always had excellent grades.
My mother was an excellent parent. Worked her ass off to raise my sisters and I. Did I drink while in high school? Yes. I never destroyed anyone's property. I knew better than that. It was MY choice to do the things I did.
My teachers were EXCELLENT. I am PROUD to say I graduated from West Elk. I never had anything below A's and B's.
Oh, and...My 2-month old son was sitting WITH his father at MY graduation. MY CHOICE.
You chose wisely, grasshopper. ;)
Quote from: Ideas on September 28, 2008, 11:26:18 PM
One less day paying busdrivers, para's, secretaries, cooks, cleaners, janitors.
I'm sure these fine folks love your plan.
STUPID IDEAS missing the forest for the trees. I am not against sports, athletics, or the track team. Preferential treatment is not just for the boardroom anymore. Stupid ideas like to not think that algebra, accounting, and vo-ag are much more important than sprints, fellowship, and networking. Special stupid ideas ed teachers got special stupid ideas ed raises out of special stupid ideas ed budget. I would pay more taxes for increased stupid ideas teachers salaries if the stupid ideas teachers would work my hours. City is only raising your taxes a little, the county is after the rest. Who cares what stupid ideas hierarchy makes per year? Two hours on the bus is far better than one of your stupid ideas. Go ahead and try to mother the entire world you never played stupid ideas sports did you? Are you volunteering to baby sit for every Severy kid going to Moline and every Moline kid going to Severy? How wonderful that you care so much.
What other stupid ideas can I punch a size ten hole through?
Quote from: pepelect on October 02, 2008, 10:29:03 PM
What other stupid ideas can I punch a size ten hole through?
Well, there was the whole bit about the tv commercial??? :-X
What would you have them show during the commercial?
Pregnate teen?
A prison uniform, parole record, wrecked vehicle, and a loosing football record?
I didn't want to touch this subject because it in itself is the most disrespectful of Stupid Ideas entire rant.
I bet a track shoe up your Stupid Idea would make a great commercial.
Actually, the answer to a great number of the woes facing Elk County is economic development. Yes, the fresh air and stunning views are quaint...but fresh air doesn't put money in pockets, unless you're running an agri-tourism spot...which, again, falls under the heading of economic development. The longer Elk County sits idle, the more people will leave in order to find gainful employment combined with larger-city amenities...which leads to a continued loss of students...which leads to fiscal woes in the educational community...which leads to decisions being made that no one wants to see happen. Yes, all of the grass-roots efforts are good...but you've got to get some large-scale development going or your towns will continue to suffer. I say all this because I truly loved the time I spent in Elk County...I still have very, very close friends there. It hurts to see my former students, many of whom have children of their own now, leaving Elk County in order to be able to be gainfully employed. Find a headhunter who will go out and find you an economic developer who has dealt with counties also under the 'frontier' heading (less than 6 people per square mile, I believe is the designation). Listen to that developer...get the 10 million pound ball rolling...attract industry...which will, in turn, attract new citizens...which will fill your classrooms and raise your tax base.
QuoteWhere is the planning for the future?
The school board is holding a special meeting Monday, Oct. 27th, at 7:30 pm to plan for the future. They had talked about having an architect present (but it might be by telephone) and discuss the cost of an elementary building in Howard. I have no idea if they're even going to consider using the old grade school.
The board wants to get some specific figures so they have something to work with - to accept or reject.
Mom, why don't they publish this stuff in the paper? I mean, if they are going to change things and you have to be on the agenda before you can speak, I don't understand this. I personally, don't like to have to call Bert everytime I want to know what is going on. I thought that they were to publish things in the paper. Your input, please MOM!!!
I hestitate to post this... but a reliable source that was at the last school board meeting said that the board asked Mr. Moore to reconsider his resignation.... plus there was discussion about an architect... I would encourage people to call their school board members to discuss both of these topics... I really would like the board to gather more public opinion or atleast ask the school personel ie teachers, staff members, what they would like see done for the future...The board is having a special meeting this next Monday Oct 27....
Yep, it's posted on the BOE minutes on the West Elk website. Interesting. Very interesting. Sounds like y'all might be getting a new elementary school...wonder how many mills this will add to your existing taxes? New buildings are tremendously expensive, when you start adding in all of the ADA, etc., specs. This also raises the spector of RIF'ing of teachers (Reduction In Force), something that will have to happen in some capacity, given the educators vs. students ratio at the present time. However, having one elementary school is a necessary step if Elk County is going to continue to be a viable entity on its own. The trip to that stage will be a somewhat painful one, I'm afraid...but the end result should be worth it. Hang on tight, in the meantime! :laugh:
Quote from: L Hendricks on October 23, 2008, 01:55:29 PM
I hestitate to post this... but a reliable source that was at the last school board meeting said that the board asked Mr. Moore to reconsider his resignation.... plus there was discussion about an architect... I would encourage people to call their school board members to discuss both of these topics... I really would like the board to gather more public opinion or atleast ask the school personel ie teachers, staff members, what they would like see done for the future...The board is having a special meeting this next Monday Oct 27....
You have got to be kidding me!! We need new blood in the big chair!! What are we thinking!! We have a new school board, new principals, we also need new super!!! I hope to be there!!!!
Well, don't be too surprised if the Sup stays around. I doubt that anything the public will say will make much of a difference, now that the Board has officially asked him to reconsider his resignation. I mean, how much more of an ego stroke do you need...you quit and then the organization that you've left begs you to come back? I don't think he'll pass up the opportunity...he's very comfortable in Elk County. He doesn't have much reason to want to have to go establish himself, at his advanced age, in a new venue.
We have needed to address the three campus' issue for the last 20 years. I think it is very smart of the board to involve an architect before we do anything. The problem is that politics are getting in the way of what is best for the students. Why aren't we looking more than two feet in front of our faces?
In a county with only 3000 people on a good day...you shouldn't have to split every dollar on redundant services. We have two districts with 4 principals, two superintendants, and declining enrollment.
If you don't cut staff when you cut students then where is the logic? Why do we still have so many underutilized structures? If we are broke then lets fix it. If we are overextended then lets fix that.
As far as the "tremendously expensive" building when is it going to get cheaper? In the future? Why don't we look ahead instead of behind? If you remodel your house you still have an old house with new parts. At some point it is time to bite the bullet and start over. We could do it better this time.
I would hope we could design a school for the future instead of being politically correct and not stepping on anyone's toes.
Pep, with all due respect, I think the problem will go away on its' own. It is obvious that this county will probably never have a larger tax base or student population. The large school we currently have will soon fit the county's needs and soon after that will be obsolete also. We certainly do need to plan for the future just as a senior citizen needs to plan. But we need to plan for the certainty. As for a different superintendent; it is too bad that one man cannot please everyone. It isn't likely to happen with this super and probably would not happen with another. The current man has to his credit a successful student body built with a tightly crunched budget. I would not want his job; too many people pulling in too many directions. I do not want to take away from the teachers involved; but all should be recognized as doing a great job for small monetary rewards. And I would most certainly not want the job of the school board members; they do not receive monetary reward at all.
Amen, pepelect! Certainly your opinion is not going to be the most popular one, everyone wants to have a say and not everyone is going to be happy. We need to get our egos out of the way and think about what is best for the children and our community.
In regard to asking Mr. Moore to stay, I think Mr. Moore does a good job with what he has. However, I don't care for the wearing of two hats. If Mr. Moore is going to stay I would like to see him in one position--either that of superintendent or director of special ed. Personally, I think the board should hire a superintendant even if Mr. Moore decides to remain.
QuoteMom, why don't they publish this stuff in the paper?
It's buried in the school minutes. As for what goes on - we could really use a reporter at the school board meetings
(Rudy, do you hear me?) to get the news out.
I don't like the current way for the public to comment - having to ask Thursday before a Monday meeting. I think it stifles contributions from the populace. That came about, however, from previous boards, not this one. It's simply not been raised as a MAJOR issue and so isn't changed.
This is one of the reasons I go to the board meetings. I really think they don't mean to hide - they just don't think of how to get out the information.
My understanding of the architect coming is some members of the board want specific costs before they can make informed decisions about the future.
QuoteSounds like y'all might be getting a new elementary school
The decision to build a new school now hasn't been made. The school board wants some specific numbers before making any kind of decision this time around. I think they're learning to get information. Instead of just talking about maybe in the future, they're finding out costs to have viable options.
If a firm decision to build has been made, I didn't pick up those vibes at the last meeting.
I certainly hope once they have possible costs, they talk it over with teachers, parents and the community. Listen to everyone instead of just their individual circle of friends.
What really sucks about this is that they planned this special meeting on a night that they have something else going on. Severy has an open house going on at this time. Don't they look at the calendar?? Oh well, they will do what Mr. Moore wants them to anyways!!!! But I would hope that they would look into the old school building. I mean, if it will work to fix it up, why not?? It is certainly big enough for the classes that they have. As for cuts in staff, I am not sure that any teacher would be cut, just switched around. But yes, they would loose some of the other staff members.
My thing is that they needed to be addressing this issue a long time ago!! Just as Pep stated!! We had a public meeting, what 5 or more years ago. Now we have 6th at the high school, but that was a short term fix. What about next year??? The 5th grade in Severy has 21 kids now and not sure but think that Moline has around 15 to 19 or so. Are the rooms big enough for a class that size?? We need to get on the ball instead of waiting till the last minute to decide. If we need to hire a new teacher now is the time to look!! I know when I graduated in December I was looking in September before I graduated. There were districts that already knew that they would be needing new staff members.
I am glad that they decided to do this. It makes perfect sense to have the information to look over before they make this decision. But I think that sometimes they do hide this information. I think they don't really like for the community to be involved. I am not talking about the board. Don't you see how mad Mr. Moore got when the community put their oppion in about the spliting the schools. He turned in his resignation. I think the board wants the community to be involved, but Mr. Moore wants them to listen to only him. That is not how things work in life. I don't always do what I want, just because I want to even when it comes to my business. You have to have the input of others to help!! Don't you pray to God, and ask for him to guide you!! That is not thinking for yourself and doing for yourself, that is being a responsible human being!! Asking others for guidance doesn't make you an idiot, it makes you better. I know that Julie at the grocery store tries really hard to please her customers, I think that we, as citizens should be considered customers to the decision that the board makes. Will they make each and everyone of us happy, no, but that is part of life.
Ok, I am off of my rant!!!
So... aren't there some positions open for school board seats? Who's running? (HINT, HINT)
Quote from: Tobina on October 24, 2008, 10:12:26 AM
So... aren't there some positions open for school board seats? Who's running? (HINT, HINT)
You're on the right track.
They would never vote me in! They fired me and I just don't think they like that I have an opinion. I like to look at all the options and weigh things before I decide. Plus to tell you the truth, I think this system is in such a mess that I wouldn't want to be on it. You can go ahead Tobina!!! Or Pep!!!!
I don't qualify; I don't have kids... remember? :P ::) :-X
Seriously, I did get asked to consider, but I'm not sure I'm ready to be involved in that hornet's nest. I've got enough stress in my life already. Plus, I know there really aren't "qualifications" to being on the board, but I really don't know enough about the school system to feel like I would be an informed contributor. I sure don't want to be perceived as being "spoon-fed" information from the current administration.
Although, maybe that makes me the perfect candidate... no previous bias, don't have the history of knowing "what used to be", not originally from this area, and very opinionated. Ha! ;D
Quote from: Tobina on October 24, 2008, 03:11:15 PM
I don't qualify; I don't have kids... remember? :P ::) :-X
Seriously, I did get asked to consider, but I'm not sure I'm ready to be involved in that hornet's nest. I've got enough stress in my life already. Plus, I know there really aren't "qualifications" to being on the board, but I really don't know enough about the school system to feel like I would be an informed contributor. I sure don't want to be perceived as being "spoon-fed" information from the current administration.
Although, maybe that makes me the perfect candidate... no previous bias, don't have the history of knowing "what used to be", not originally from this area, and very opinionated. Ha! ;D
Believe me...compared to a few on that Board, you are abundantly qualified. And, it is obvious that prior knowledge of the educational system is absolutely not a prerequisite to becoming elected. Actually, the Board needs someone like you...perhaps you need to sit down and really think about doing this. I would say that another Perk-fect person would be Patrick...but I think he'd turn my suggestion down, outright. lol :laugh: :laugh:
"They" don't have anything to do with who is voted into office. That is like blaming the current administration for the election results.
Quote from: Catwoman on October 24, 2008, 03:24:11 PM
Quote from: Tobina on October 24, 2008, 03:11:15 PM
I don't qualify; I don't have kids... remember? :P ::) :-X
Although, maybe that makes me the perfect candidate... no previous bias, don't have the history of knowing "what used to be", not originally from this area, and very opinionated. Ha! ;D
I would say that another Perk-fect person would be Patrick...but I think he'd turn my suggestion down, outright. lol :laugh: :laugh:
Tobina you don't have to have kids to be on the board. You would have a better prospective with out the personal distraction.
People are not ready to hear what I have to say. They are still living in the past. They is still too much us and them...
As for me turning it down......
You would be wrong.
Go for it, Patrick...I really mean it. You have the vision that the Board needs. As for their not being ready to hear it...that's a personal problem on their part. I know the content of the Board...and it's time for someone like you! Get out, get running...and I'm sure you'll find that the citizens will back you. Shoot...if I were still there, I'd be your campaign manager! lol Let's see..."Vote out the turkeys that you have representing you...Vote in the biggest turkey of them all!"...hmmmmmm...needs work...maybe someone else better handle this. lol :laugh:
Quote from: Tobina on October 24, 2008, 03:11:15 PM
I don't qualify; I don't have kids... remember? :P ::) :-X
I'd really like to knee jerk on that snippy comment ..but I am on a time schedule here and will be leaving soon... and my frame of mind is not very much on the "nice side" today.. I am sure when I get out and about I will cheer up immensely..
( for the love of the lord ...lets hope so) ;)
Sometimes.. the young ones without kids ( who don't owe any one section or person anything ) make the best ones to see both sides of the situation.
So there, Tobino..(even though I publicly apologized to you) ..*didn't help cause it still sticks in your craw*.. I would campaign and be in your corner ..I think you would be an excellent one to set on the board.
Patrick.. I think since you DO have kids in the school system and you are a cage rattler.. then you are just what they need in there. They won't like you very much of course..:D. but that might be for the better.. LOL ..
(((It would tear down their little "everyone is bundled together in a nice little agreeing pen of bleating sheep" group..
New blood with new ideas and you 2 wouldn't be afraid to not only talk the talk.. but maybe make them walk the walk. I will more than be glad to campaign for you both.. knocking on doors .. handing out fliers.. etc.
Quote from: angtown3 on October 24, 2008, 06:55:26 AM
I am glad that they decided to do this. It makes perfect sense to have the information to look over before they make this decision. But I think that sometimes they do hide this information. I think they don't really like for the community to be involved. I am not talking about the board. Don't you see how mad Mr. Moore got when the community put their oppion in about the spliting the schools. He turned in his resignation. I think the board wants the community to be involved, but Mr. Moore wants them to listen to only him. That is not how things work in life. I don't always do what I want, just because I want to even when it comes to my business. You have to have the input of others to help!! Don't you pray to God, and ask for him to guide you!! That is not thinking for yourself and doing for yourself, that is being a responsible human being!! Asking others for guidance doesn't make you an idiot, it makes you better. I know that Julie at the grocery store tries really hard to please her customers, I think that we, as citizens should be considered customers to the decision that the board makes. Will they make each and everyone of us happy, no, but that is part of life.
Ok, I am off of my rant!!!
Truth is always good, no matter where you choose to post it. And, you've just hit on one of the problems that West Elk has always had...there has always been an effort to control how information is given out and when it is given out. And, yes...the man at the helm appears to get a little bent out of shape when his control is questioned. He stated openly in his letter to the newspaper (and I'm paraphrasing here) that he is accustomed to being headed in the same direction as his Board and that when that isn't occuring, then it's time for him to take his ball and go home. But, let's be honest here...the public and the Board have accepted his role in their lives...even given him more complete control, when they made him Sup. in addition to being the Dir. of SPED. So, if he's accustomed to having control, it's a result of many years of shaping the events surrounding that control. And, I can tell you that the man honestly believes he's doing the best job that he can for the district. He's been tremendously active outside of the county, involved in various educationally-based activities. So, you take the bad with the good...and try to make sure that the good outweighs whatever collateral damage is left in his wake.
Quote from: Teresa on October 25, 2008, 10:23:55 AM
Patrick.. I think since you DO have kids in the school system and you are a cage rattler.. then you are just what they need in there. They won't like you very much of course..:D. but that might be for the better.. LOL ..
(((It would tear down their little "everyone is bundled together in a nice little agreeing pen of bleating sheep" group..
New blood with new ideas and you 2 wouldn't be afraid to not only talk the talk.. but maybe make them walk the walk. I will more than be glad to campaign for you both.. knocking on doors .. handing out fliers.. etc.
That would be like buying your own rope for the hanging...........Can I get a good deal on just one 50 caliber round?
Quote from: Teresa on October 25, 2008, 10:23:55 AM
Quote from: Tobina on October 24, 2008, 03:11:15 PM
I don't qualify; I don't have kids... remember? :P ::) :-X
I'd really like to knee jerk on that snippy comment ..but I am on a time schedule here and will be leaving soon... and my frame of mind is not very much on the "nice side" today.. I am sure when I get out and about I will cheer up immensely..
( for the love of the lord ...lets hope so) ;)
Sometimes.. the young ones without kids ( who don't owe any one section or person anything ) make the best ones to see both sides of the situation.
So there, Tobino..(even though I publicly apologized to you) ..*didn't help cause it still sticks in your craw*.. I would campaign and be in your corner ..I think you would be an excellent one to set on the board.
I'm apologizing back to you, Teresa. I didn't even remember it was you who said that about the kids; I was trying to jokingly give myself an excuse for not running. Thanks for your vote of support, though.
It wasn't Teresa who made the comment about not having kids...the perpetrator of that rudeness will go unnamed for the moment. ::)
No.. it was me, Catwoman.. Sometimes my mouth overloads my brain.. :-X
Hmmmm. The post I read wasn't you...so as far I know, you're absolved! lol As far as mouths overloading brains...try to be a teacher in front of a class of 24, trying to mediate a situation while monitoring for behavior on the part of the other students! It can get hairy sometimes!
>:(
The community came out in droves to listen to the board members discuss the new school proposal. less than 1% of even Howard citizens. >:(
If you have a problem with the school then get your 99% of the couch. If you want to know what is going on then get involved.
The good news is that the architects hated the old grade school idea. Just one more intelligent voice for the construction of a giant parking lot within a residential area.
I'm so sorry I missed the meeting - first one in months I missed.
Just had too much work to do. Lost 6 hours today going to VA in Wichita. :P
QuoteIf you want to know what is going on then get involved
What, if any, involvement ideas were presented tonight?
The administration and staff were going to meet to get their list of wants and want nots for the possibility of a new school. Cost of construction and the availability of labor were discussed. It is a good time to build as far as labor goes but stuff is still high. The attached vs detached school plans were hashed about. The board wants to stress that this is just a fact and dollar finding mission. The needs of the students were discussed as far as new curriculum and services. Foreign languange, physics, and expanded techinical skills. The need for more technology in all parts of every job dictates the need for more technology in all education.
If the administration and staff get together and come up with wants and want nots - and do not include teachers, parents and community - then they're going to repeat earlier mistakes.
I still think the elementary, middle school and high school concept of June was a viable one for the time - but was presented ALL wrong.
Without the input and buy-in of teachers, parents and community into wants of a new facility, there will still be communication problems.
I would not anticipate that the Board will involve the public or the certified staff in this decision. Past precedent would indicate that any decisions will be driven through the aspects of availability of labor, the availability of differing types of monies (grants, increasing mills, etc.) and the wants of the Board/Sup. They might make a show of appearing to listen but any real decision making ability will remain theirs. This is one of the reasons why I have been pushing for Patrick to run for the BOE...he has the tenacity to withstand the herd mentality and represent the public's interests.
No ..... The board stated that they did not want to make any decisions with out the input of the staff(teachers), community(tax payers), and the students......
They did not leave any one out from what I heard at the meeting. They were an a fact finding goal....What are we doing right and what needs to change.....Would a central campus be more cost effective to keeping and more importantly attracting good qualified teachers for the future.....If you didn't have to worry about nickel and dime expenses on 50 year old facilities then you could do more with less in the future if we have low enrollment....It is all about efficiency....The more efficient we become the smarter per dollar our kids are.......
Computers are cheap...Busses are expensive.....Quit buying fuel and buy a terrabytes or two.......
If we built in some flexibility when we have a smaller class we shift the building to meet the class size. If we have bumper crop enrollment then we shift the building to accomidate that. It is cheaper to think out the worst and best case on a computer screen than to run into the problem we have now.....
Were portable classrooms discussed at all? After all portables can be expanded or collapsed at need without a great deal of expense. A covered walkway should not be too expensive either. I truly think that may be the way to go.
They discussed putting the classrooms in a cloverleaf configuration with shared center room for combined or groups.
The only thing I see with wrong portables is the same thing I have against trailer houses and mobile homes. They are a short term fix for a longterm problem. The other thing that comes to mind is .....Greensburg......Chapman....
The state is stressing a safer room for all students and most schools open that up to the community at large....I think that a permanent structure with flexibility has more of an up side than a portable.
The problem of low enrollment is going to be around for a while. The problem is that the redundant expenses with three campuses could finance quite a bit of staff to actually teach. Three lunchrooms.....Endless transportation......Logistics of getting to and from......
There is no point in the district that is more than 25 miles from the highschool. It is as close to the center as you can get without GPS. If you did bus route even like the spokes of a wheel you could cut time on the bus signifacantly. That is not even looking a map of where the students live. Greenwood, Chautauqua, and Elk students would benefit from one great asset.
I am not convinced the Board really wants significant input from the community. Patrick, you are right in that it was stated at the meeting that the community would get their opportunity for input somewhere down the road. Bert advised that he would have the administrators meet with their teachers to get their input. I hope this is not just one meeting. I would like for the teachers to meet directly with the Board.
I strongly believe we will be far ahead to involve the community, teachers, and students from day one. Yes, the Board stated that this was a fact finding mission. And they did gather facts from the architects. But they need to gather input from elsewhere. Make our future schools one "built" by the community.
Chanute, as I undertand it, has built some incredible schools. Not less than 100 meetings were conducted involving all stakeholders. Do we intend to meet that much? To put that much effort into such an important and critical issue?
DW
As I stated before, past precedent would indicate that the ultimate decisions made will not involve the public's views. The Board will make a show of 'listening', then do exactly as they please. Actions speak louder than words...and their past actions indicate a healthy disregard for any opinion other than theirs. The only reason that the Board listened to the public regarding the school issues over the summer was that they recognized that there was liable to be a mass exit to other school systems if they carried through on their original plans...i.e. loss of precious funding if the kids are gone previous to the Sept. 20th count date. Money (or the lack thereof) is a great motivater. And, the general public staying away from the BOE meetings gives them ample room to be able to do as they please. If you want the public's views to be heard and respected, then the general public has to show up IN DROVES...get every person who is able to hobble through the door to be there and pack the room. You can't just let someone else show up and do the dirty work, then sit back and smile about how it all turned out. This is one occasion where you're all going to have to get in there and be ready to mix it up with the best of them...unless you don't really care about the outcomes...then, by all means, stay away. If you're serious, then show up...and show up...and show up...and show up. Don't just make it to one meeting...make it to them all. Make your presence felt and impossible to be ignored!
Catwoman, you said it. We must get involved. The community has allowed the current culture to exist. If the community wants it to be different, than the community must get involved.
DW
I couldn't agree more David, I firmly believed that despite what was said at the meeting, the school board isn't encouragin community involvement. We (meaning us but also the school board) should go to great lengths to ensure that the community is actively involved in all the discussions not only on our "campus" but the curriculum as well. This presents the perfect opportunity to coordinate the curriculum and the facilities and attempt to provide a facility that can be flexible enough to adapt to the educational needs of our students for the next 25 years.
On my rant, if the school board were truly interested in receiving the opinions of the community, they could have sent home letters informing parents of the meaning. Was it on channel 2?(sorry, I never watch it) Did we post flyers or other notices of a special meeting? I read the Prairie Star, I don't recall a notice of a special meeting (not saying that it is necessary), but rather that it would be intelligent to have done so.
I don't blieve that the board understands to get a bond passed that will geniunely improve the educational environment of this area, you need to actively court the community. This needs to be resolved. This board and its administrators have a communication disability. Certainly you will never have the attendance that you will hope for at any school board meeting, but no effort was made. They need to seek the buy-in of the community from the beginning, that way we aren't redoing this several times to get community support.
Sorry for the rant, was upsetting me. I will get off my soap box now! ::)
Slow down.....The meeting was for information only....If we would have had 500 people you still would have not been able to respond during the meeting as it was a special meeting with a approved adjenda. If you are not on the adjenda you don't speak....The community is involved. We elected the board members.
Ever been to a senate hearing and been given the mike? When was the last time the board of directors called on you at a stockholders meeting to discuss the direction of the company?
Breathe...............All we are doing is raising your taxes for about 25 years......chill. ......gas is cheap.
I realize that the meeting was for information only and am not getting hyper over it. Rather, I was expressing a concern over the likelihood and the general process of discovering what is needed in any potential new structure. I fully realize that we can't have 500 people at each meeting expressing opinions, and I DIDN'T suggest that we should, my suggestion was on a planning or steering committee only. Further to that, we did elect board members, however, this doesn't preclude the public being very involved in any planning sessions. I have been to a Senate hearing both in Topeka and in Washington as well as the Canadian Senate in Ottawa, and understand fully well how the process works. I also understand that steering committees with respresents of many different sub-groups of the populace are very beneficial when planning any potential school construction and the bond issues that would result.
Now that I'm done breathing :P , I'll move on.
Well said, Jerry.
Quote from: jerry wagner on October 30, 2008, 06:53:59 PM
I have been to a Senate hearing both in Topeka and in Washington as well as the Canadian Senate in Ottawa, and understand fully well how the process works.
You missed the forest....I said have you been given the mike. Were you asked to speak on a subject?
Input is very beneficial but at the first meeting between the architect and board what input was necessary? The just of the meeting was all about the planning and community involvement. How to get a bond writer with a emphasis on getting the word out on what was needed to better the school. When to put the bond up for vote...What time of the year would be the best..How long it would take if we proceed...How much money is to be involved. What are the inflationary factors that have to be planned for. Where on the site is the best placement for that size of building. How many kids do we have. How many do we expect to have in the future.
Since when does a board of anything need to court the people it represents to be involved in a public entity? Does someone from your job come by every morning and ask you to please get up and come to work? Do we need to send out emails every day at noon and tell you that is time to eat lunch.
How about a letter saying that the current school system we have is very expensive to operate with the limited number of students that live in the area. That one letter would cost more than the electric bill for an entire day of class at all three schools.
Which brings me to my next point. We live in a Mecca of energy. We have oil, natural gas, and now wind energy. What is the school system doing to prepare students to work in those shop at home fields of study? What does it mean to frack a well? Where is the optimum pipe line placement? When do we eat lunch? You want me to climb up where to change what? Is a gun barrel a firearm? Where does the bs come from? Who ever thought that rotten eggs is the smell to use?
Quote from: jerry wagner on October 30, 2008, 06:53:59 PM
Now that I'm done breathing :P , I'll move on.
Need help packing?
The question was raised whether a two story or one story was cheaper to build. One of the state recommendations/laws is that the younger students be on the ground floor of the building. Which led to the next question what does it cost to build a high school. Our current high school is pushing thirty. Things are starting to break...Expensive things. Floors, HVAC, or lack there of, carpet, plumbing, and the lighting could be updated.
Why couldn't you build a building directly north of the football stadium. It would force the rerouting of the access road to Elk Street but this site has many advantages. You could build a two story structure with one floor opening out to the east and the lower floor opening out to the west.. This would take advantage of the natural slope of the terrain. You could build the building large enough to block the entire end zone and part of the naughty goat pasture would suffer. The advantage would be box seating in the end-zone for football games....Air conditioning and heat could take advantage of a rebuilt school pond for a little geothermal effect. By opening the entire south side of the building it would allow every floor to have abundant natural light to come in. If you staggered the roof line you could even get classrooms on the north side with a southern exposure. Studies have shown that the more natural light you have the smarter the student.
You would have good access to existing roads and would not affect school during construction. Close to the sports Mecca. Close to the district office. You won't need the bus barn anymore. You could tunnel under the road with a safe room/corridor to get from the existing buildings to the new one. Half of the school would be underground so it would be safer by design. It would be built with ample materials to withstand damaging winds and flash flooding.
We have abundant limestone in the area. I think stone walls would add more to the area than another metal barn with a flag pole. Interior walls could be moveable. If you have a small class shrink...If you have a large one expand.
You can't throw a stick in Elk county with out hitting a drilling rig passing by. Flag one down and drill some holes for the efficiency of a ground source heat pump for the entire structure. Design opening windows and roof structure for good natural cross flow ventilation. Heat rises and schools tend to produce more than they can get rid of. Incorporate some old school solar panels on the roof, harness it and use it to heat water or a community health and wellness swimming pool...
Vo Ag: Why do we buy milk from Highland with transportation costs that far exceed the cost of raw milk? Math question how many cows would it take to produce enough milk for the entire school every day? Teach the darlings some work ethic by milking three times a day. Yes I would help. Staggered through out the upper classes different cows would be picked by lottery. Bonuses for improved production or excellent cleanliness inspection results. We sell sausage to the general public to raise money for FFA activities buy why not buy it for use in the school. Inspected meat is inspected meat. What better quality than home grown? Greenbush could buy from us if we were a dairy. How much land lease could we come up with for a beef production class as well?
The billboard would say the newest state of the are school in Kansas...Where the students grow their own breakfast, lunch and dinner. If you get an A on a test you eat steak for lunch. Ya we could might grow some soybeans for the bovine impaired....or if you are tardy or truant.
....not bad for no caffeine.
Much of what you just described Patrick is found at the College of the Ozarks just outside of Branson MO. When the wife and I took the tour there we were floored with the ingenuity of the programs there. They have a cattle program, milking program, crop program, and many others. The idea behind this endeavor is that the kids pay no tuition to go to college. They must work in the designated areas and that is how the funds are raised.
Just some hard work and sweat and your school is paid for. Kinda puts to rest the idea that college isn't affordable doesn't it.
I think that is where you were going at the end of your thread Patrick, correct me if I am mistaken.
PEP,
I will always respect your opinion. You are one intelligent person. But, I have to debate with you here.
The Board is not required to court the public. They have no obligation. But, simply put, my opinion is that the product and the outcome will be better and the process less painful if all stakeholders (public, teachers, administrators) are involved from day one. I for one, if I sat in their seat, would be arguing for public debate or conversation about what our schools of the future will look like.
DW
p.s. I have had much caffeine this morning. I can't muster near as many "bytes" as you did last night without.
I promise not to pull you off the subject ... just wanted to encourage Dan Cookson's line of thinking about the College of the Ozarks. That place is so very impressive. Of course it's a private school, not a tax-supported USD, but many of their attitudes and concepts could certainly be followed.
Students pay no tuition. Every student works on campus. Those kids do everything from milk cows to work in greenhouses to mopping floors to working in electronics to learning to fly airplanes and making jellies and jams to running a first-class restaurant.
Again, I'm not even suggesting that can be done here, but something creative should be considered, especially since the district's finances are minimal.
OK, back to your subject. Thanks for letting me interject a couple of thoughts.
What skills and knowledge are on the resumes of our board members? Architect? Construction science? Electric engineer? Elementary Education? Nutritional science? Geophysicist?
Umm, no. The fact is, the board is elected from people of our own community... your neighbor who was willing to stick their neck out for the good of the school. Education and skills from many different levels. Not hardly ones who should be making decisions about how/where to build a school.
My point is a couple of things...
First, the members of the board need to recognize that "they" aren't going to build the school themselves, and they need to open their minds (and BOE mike's) to those in or out of the community who DO have that knowledge and experience. Yes, they brought in an architect to do some fact-finding. Have they taken a field trip to any other schools to find out what works and what doesn't? Or invited other school's BOE to discuss with them? Why do we think we can do it better alone, rather than learn from the mistakes and successes of others?
Second, the members of the board were ELECTED to do the job. Just like any senator or representative, they are supposed to represent the people in their area... their friends and neighbors. Like PEP said, you don't just get the microphone to talk at a meeting; you talk to your elected board member... who then represents your opinions to the rest of the board. Again, something that the BOE members need to remember; you're not just there to give your OWN opinion... you're there to represent your constituents' opinions (and it might very well differ from your own). How many of you can say you've taking a board member out to lunch to discuss your opinion and thoughts with them? How many board members have taken the time to call up some neighbors and ask their opinions?
Bottom line is... BOE are elected positions. ELECT someone who will represent you well. And then TRUST that those people will make decisions based on what's good for the district.
I personally have talked to many BOE members past and present conserning problems and things. Yes they listen, but they are like a pack, they stick together. Well, not all of them. There are some that just go with the other members and some that think for themselves. If you are going to talk to one, talk to them all. They are on that board because we elected them, but they don't always think what is best for our school as a whole. You have to remember this. If they want to change the mindset of some of the community members it would be best if they did start with the community and get there input. We can't afford to lose students. Many members in the out lying towns, don't want the schools to close. I understand that, but they are stuck in the past and don't understand the money crunch that the school is going through. I also don't really think that they are thinking when they threatin to move their students to another district. We don't realize how great a district we have here!! We have students that are really well rounded kids. They are bright, athletic, and very talented. Parents don't realize that what great teachers we have, too. We have some of the best in the state, ( my opinion but true look at our test scores)!!
So, we do need the input of the community at the beginning process. It is best to try to get all the community on board with whatever the BOE decides to do.
Quote from: Rudy Taylor on October 31, 2008, 11:37:53 AM
Again, I'm not even suggesting that can be done here, but something creative should be considered, especially since the district's finances are minimal.
This is what I am talking about Rudy and all. And I think creativity is best if given a clean slate and all interested parties are allowed to dream from the beginning. Once a plan starts to take shape, it is hard to modify. Logic says it can be; reality is very different (in my opinion).
And, again, if all stakeholders are able to be creative, offer input, and everyone feels like they have had a say in the plans design, it will have a great chance to succeed.
DW
Why can't we do it here? Why should the school district be a financial burden? Since when did turning a profit or gitting off the welfare mentality of someone else providing the funding for our lives become something that will not work here? It is our money that is being spent so why can't we use it to the best of our abilities.
To debate me on a subject I would have to be on the opposite side of the debated subject. I am not against any community involvement. The more the better. The problem is if you have ever built a church you have the same problem. Everybody wants to help. But now one is a construction worker, one is a banker, one is a lawyer, and the doctor is still on call..... We don't have any outside influence because we don't have the same problems as other more progressive communities. The community needs to stand up and give input at the beginning of the process which is now.
The initial meeting was to get the ball rolling. The first pitch so to speak. I think we can hit it out of the park.
......see I am not totally against sports.
And I keep thinking of the six blind men being asked to describe the elephant.
Everybody's got a different idea of the same animal.
Patience.
A Community Conversation concerning "Our Communities and Our Schools" will be held in the commons area of the West Elk USD 282 High School on Monday, December 1, 2008, from 7:00 to 9:00 PM..
The meeting is being organized by the Elk Konnected Steering Committee and will be moderated by The Kansas Communities LLC President, Mr Terry Woodbury.
The purpose of the conversation is to engage all interested citizens of the community in a unified group effort to plan the most effective educational future for our young people. As every citizen of the community will be impacted by the decisions to be made in the near future, we are encouraging interested citizens, parents, grandparents, business owners, school administrators, staff and youth to attend and present your positive ideas and to relay the questions that will need answered before decisions are made.
We hope you will plan to join us as a show of involvement and support for the huge task at hand.
I am glad to see this occuring...and am sure that there will be a good turn-out. ;)
Quote from: jerry wagner on October 29, 2008, 10:07:53 PM
I couldn't agree more David, I firmly believed that despite what was said at the meeting, the school board isn't encouragin community involvement. We (meaning us but also the school board) should go to great lengths to ensure that the community is actively involved in all the discussions not only on our "campus" but the curriculum as well. This presents the perfect opportunity to coordinate the curriculum and the facilities and attempt to provide a facility that can be flexible enough to adapt to the educational needs of our students for the next 25 years.
On my rant, if the school board were truly interested in receiving the opinions of the community, they could have sent home letters informing parents of the meaning. Was it on channel 2?(sorry, I never watch it) Did we post flyers or other notices of a special meeting? I read the Prairie Star, I don't recall a notice of a special meeting (not saying that it is necessary), but rather that it would be intelligent to have done so.
I don't blieve that the board understands to get a bond passed that will geniunely improve the educational environment of this area, you need to actively court the community. This needs to be resolved. This board and its administrators have a communication disability. Certainly you will never have the attendance that you will hope for at any school board meeting, but no effort was made. They need to seek the buy-in of the community from the beginning, that way we aren't redoing this several times to get community support.
Sorry for the rant, was upsetting me. I will get off my soap box now! ::)
I'm just saying obiously if it was mean't to be announced...It would have been It wasn't like it was the end of the world that they didn't put it out there I mean yah It would have been nice but...It didn't really say much just PROPOSALLS just ideas not an actual deal an IDEA IDEA IDEa lol ...just throwing this out into the obviously ever ending world.
Update and School Board action.....
Mr. Moore will be employed as the Director of Special Education at a 1/2 time position beginning Aug 1, 2009.
The Superintendent position opening will be advertised. The board voted to advertise this internally first for a two week period.
The Board did hear from Elk Konnected Steering Committee about the Dec 1st Community Conversation. Richard Fish made the presentation. Other Steering Committee members present were myself, Liz Hendricks, and Nancy Barker. The Board did not as a group make any formal commitment to be at the meeting. Five of the members said they could be there. Two were not sure. If 4 or more are present, and I greatly hope this is so, it will have to be a special meeting of the board. So, if you see a special board meeting advertised for Dec 1st, this is why. To comply with Kansas Open Meetins Act, this must be done. The meeting will be opened by the board. The single agenda item will be a Community Conversation moderated by Elk Konnected. After the conversation, the Board will close the meeting.
Any questions?
DW
I don't mean to be a smartass here, but does that mean when the board members attend the HS play this weekend, if there are 4 or more members present at the same showing, it's considered a special meeting?
Why does it have to be considered a special meeting and not just a group of community members getting together for a discussion? I guess it doesn't matter either way if the board is willing to call it a special meeting, but I hope they're not going to discourage BOE to attend so they don't have to call it one.
Tobina,
Several of us were wandering the same. Sporting events, etc. where board members are gathered.
The difference is, however, that the discussion will be about the schools. And, the Boards interpretation of the KOMA is such.
Shouldn't make a difference. Just a technicality.
DW
Hmmmm. So...Bert is sticking with his resignation and moving down to a half-time position as Dir. of SPED. It will be interesting to see who they get in as Sup't. this time...I sure hope the BOE makes a concerted effort to find someone qualified, instead of someone who will just simply do as the Board wishes. It would be good if they could find someone who has been a Sup't. previously, for longer than 10 years. There is no substitute for experience...and not just experience gained through a short stint at some small town...the kind of experience that will enable West Elk to go forward with fiscally sound decisions that come from a basis of proven experience. Maybe someone from a larger district who is now retired and looking for a smaller venue in which to spend the rest of their career before going onto Social Security?
I want to encourage each and every one to involve themselves with this process. Make a concerted effort to attend, speak, and be heard. Every board member should be there if they want to hear what the community has to say.
There wasn't mention of food at this meeting.......There is going to be food isn't there?
I could put a couple hundred pork chops on sale?>>>##@!!!!!
Christmas... ( er..Holiday I forgot we were taking about the nondenominational public school) cookies baked by the FCCLA, FFA, or what ever abreviated student group that can cook would be appropriate for the season.
On the super position.....Why do we need a super for every district. Why can't we share one? They all have the same job in every district. Some have many schools and some have only one. This one currently has three. Why can't we borrow one from the other districts in our area. Ideally one of the Longton, Sedan which we already share special education with.........
Why do we have to have an adverserial relationship with the administration and the public? I have never seen in the 13 years since I moved back a honest request from the administration to the public except for the constant increase in mills. If all you ask for is money than all you will get is money. We all have the same problems here. We need more people to provide more goods and services but we need more goods and services to provide people to come use our goods and services. Declining enrollment, tightning budgets, and high input costs are straining the local as well as national economy.
Let's cut the costs from the top down. Call it trickle up economics. Raise the lowest wages and lower the highest. It will cost less to raise the teacher wages to a decent wage now that we have no top end. We have a board that is perfectly capable of making the major decisions and leave the day to day to the staff. I think the principles of all three schools can handle their jobs with board oversight. If they can't we can find others.
Just an off the subject rant:/ Who was the idiot that drove through the yard in front of the school this time? Didn't we spend a bizillion dollars on cameras for the doors but can't point one at the parking lot to catch the idiots in real time? In times of economic downturn we don't need to spend useless hours cleaning up after uneducated citizens when we need to be concentrating on bigger things. Find them.......Fine them.......make them eat cake.
If we decide to build a new school. It would be cool if we could include a lot of efficiency into the design.
The biggest thing I would like to eliminate is the electric bill. We should put in energy saving lighting control through out the entire building(s). It is a school. That has class times. Every bell you get activity in the halls changing class rooms. Why not put in motion sensors on the hall ways, commons areas, well pretty much every where. Between classes classroom lights could dim to a energy saving level, hall lighting could be increased as traffic increases and empty rooms would shut down automatically. HVAC and Electronics in each room could be addressed the same way. Replace the big 400watt high bay light fixtures in the gym and other areas with new high output T5 fluorescents. They put out better light, burn less power, are instant on/off, and are dimmable. Do we really need every light in the entire building on all day? Why? The exterior lighting is another example of energy pork. Turn down the exterior lighting when no one is present. Then if we have visitors good or bad up the light level.
The current configuration of classrooms opens the north, west, and east sides of the building with small vertical windows two per room. The VoAg, industrial arts, library, and other land locked rooms have no sunlight at all. Why can't we move the VoAg area to a stand alone remote location closer to the Agriculture it represents? Is a separate office for the district really needed. This would give a new bank of class rooms complete southern exposure.
We have class 9 months of the year and heat the majority of that time. If we could use a method of heating water, air, even the floor for less than the half the current usage we could double the size of the building and not spend any more money than we do now on utility.
Ground source heating would pay for itself in the life of the building. There are two ways to do it. Drill vertical holes for every ton of heat needed or trench footage of pipe for the same effect. The principle is the same you heat from the ground temperature of 56 that is a differential of 20 degrees. You cool from 56 degrees. The only thing moving is a pump to circulate the fluid. You would need air handlers to keep fresh air moving but you could pay for a A300 engine size fans for what it takes to heat with gas/electric conventionally.
Why do we have to start learning at the building door? With remote distance learning why can't we teach in the bus? Why does distance have to mean from one town to the next why can't it mean from the home to the school. We live in a digital age. We can send text messages at age 5 so why not teach what they already know. Interpersonal relationships integrated with technology. We ban cell phones for the distraction why not require them? If every kid had a device of some kind you could communicate with every one at once. I.T. would have to be reassessed. Can you imagine the research papers our third graders could write from the seat of the bus?
I want a corporate partner.
If there was a service, product, manfacturing entity that would team up with the school we could greatly benifit both. If you had an enterprise that provided jobs and the need of a perticular skill set you could fill that job and skill set with the students that you teach that skill to.
An overgrown magnet school for the 21st century. Team up for a money making for profit exchange of dollars for skills and services. Go to school get a good job and live a long healthy life. This would build a sense of community unmung the students who would stay with us after graduation.
We do a pretty good job of graduating potential. Some go off to college get a degree and have fulfilling careers elsewhere. We don't do such a good job of providing a good job for them to return here.
All of these are really good ideas, Patrick. Sure hope someone with clout is listening. So, when do you start your campaign for school board member?
Is it broken? Can we improve on it? Are all teachers unionized or collective bargining? Do we have local representatives? Are they not active or do they just represent the teachers to the teachers and administration? I have talked to a lot of teachers either on here or in person and I can't read them......I need hooked-on-educator. Are they happy or sad. They took a pay cut to save our school system. Then we hired more middle management. Maybe we needed more non teaching educational personel but what is the goal.... The big public meetings talked about cutting staff, combining class rooms, eliminating programs, and chopping days off the calendar.
Maybe part of the problem is that the schools are isolated physically from the district office. What if we moved the "office" to the central core of the district instead of the district office. Maybe the school is isolated physically from the public. Why don't we build a housing developement east and south of the school. It would be small family homes with great neighbors. The construction could be done in conjunction with the industrial arts, art, and VoAg classes. Why not teach a trade while building a dream home. If Jimmy Carter can rebuild slums with nothing surely we can find some left over clock money to start a development.
Where did we conservation about becoming more efficient with what we already have take place??.....
Save a tree, pass out a couple dozen PDA's, laptops, palm pilots have come a long way baby!
Where is it written in stone that class has to have a white board with pretty little desks facing the same way towards the big desk with the teacher talking from behind it. We have thousands of square feet of space lets utilize it all.....Why can't you have english class on the bleachers overlooking the football field? Is there a law about where to have class outside? Do we have 7 classes of lunch? Is there a commons area ghost? Why can't we partition the lunch room, commons, and part of the hall ways......The auditorium could be fitted with a drop down screen and remote learning program beamed down from geo syncronized satelite.
Fire code smire code. Didn't we fire walk the halls in the grade school for years we can adjust..... We have keep entrances and exits clear but it could be done.
I am still not convinced that if you drop the enrollment 200 students you need more building for resourceful teachers to have class. If we taught 520 students with the buildings we have, why can't we stuff 148 grade school lockers in the back of the building. Bleachers with tape that say algebra, trig, and pre-calc with a cool wireless big screen would produce more engineering students than the current method.
The beauty of living where there is no established building codes is that we can build a structure any way we want to.
We have to be more aggressive in the fact that a new school teaching system makes a lot of sense. We have mastered the current requirements why not strive to set our own goals.
If we became more energy efficient we spend more money on education.
If so many people care so much about the current system then why is no one saying anything?
Hmmmm. Maybe that'd be because you've already said it all so eloquently...hard to improve on Perkfection! lol
pepelect and perfection?
oxymoron.
:-)
Hey...who youes call'n a moron????????????
Received notice today that there will be a Special Meeting of the West Elk School Board on Monday, November 24th to interview Superintendent candidates.
Just to reiterate facts from November 10 regular meeting:
It was stated that the notice for the opening of West Elk Superintendent would be done internally for the first two weeks. We are still within that two-week period.
DW
Doesn't that mean we are interviewing internal canidates?
If it is not open up to outsiders yet then the already heres are still in play...
Is the meeting at 7:30 pm - normal School Board time?
Yes. 7:30. District Office.
The meeting was at 7..........It was a 2 1/2 hour executive session after executive session. We will need a new high school principal next year.......But we have a superintendent......
Please explain.
I would guess that they hired the principal from the high school for the super job. I also guess that they have in mind a candidate for the principal job, too. I do have an idea for a candidate, but we will see if that idea pans out. I really don't know to much about Mr. Reese. Does anyone that could give me an insight on him???
Why does the Prin and Super have to be 2 different people?
Tobina,
I think that is a good question. One that should be asked. We have combined two positions before (Super and Special Ed). I am not saying this is best but should be considered.
As far as Mr Reese, I have had some interaction with him. The Physical Image Action Team of Elk Konnected is working with the school on a Service Learning Day. Mr. Reese is very supportive of this effort. He has other ideas (I think good) for getting the schools and community working together. He brings experiences from other schools. Remember, he has only been here a few months so he is in effect bringing outside experience to the job.
My overall impression with limited interaction is positive. I see him as even tempered, smart, and progressive.
I hope the community will be supportive of him and his efforts to better our childrens education.
Now, how can you (West Elk patron) help you ask? Ok, maybe you didn't come right out and ask it but I know you are wandering. Start by coming to the Community Conversation on Monday, December 1st at the West Elk High School. Be ready to contribute positive converstation.
Positive conversation changes the world.
David
I am anxiously awaiting the conversation next Monday night! I think it will be positive and healthy!
I do have some questions before then; sort of research...
How many administrators does the USD office have?
How many admin does each school have (non-teachers)?
How many teachers does each school have?
How many kids in each class?
How many buses do we have, and how many miles per day do they run?
How many classes do the high school teachers teach? Classes of the same subject, classes of different subjects?
How many non-teacher coaches are there (Jr High and HS)?
How many extracurricular activities are school sponsored?
TN,
You need to call the District Office. That is the only source that could get you close on those numbers. If you get the info, please share.
DW
I have to tell you that I am going to try to attend. I am very concerned for the school situation. It is so up in the air. I guess it doesn't help that I am a planner. I have to have an idea about what the next day brings, weeks, or even months. And the situation that the school is in worries me. I have a 5th grader this year. As of right now, I don't think they have any idea where they will be going to school. I know that kids don't worry like their parents. I need to concentrate on the positive things that the school has to offer. I really try to do that. I think that this meeting will help settle a little nerves that I have about the situation that our school is in. I hope that it does.
EVERYONE needs to attend the Community conversation on Dec 1 - This will not be like any school meeting you have attended previously at WEHS. Everyone is affected by the decisions going on out in the district office - whether or not you have children in school or not. If a centralized campus is the focus - how can we utilize the 2 existing bldgs to further our communities. If continuing with 2 grade schools is the desire - how can we make them more efficient. What are our long term needs, what are our short term needs... People need to come with positive attitudes and with the goal of giving our children the best education we can afford! Remember this coming Mon Dec 1 - West Elk Commons Area at 7pm. Your input will be heard. A lot of roundtable discussion... Positive conversation changes the world!
How many square feet does each classroom have?
How many rooms are in Severy and Moline grade school?
How many square feet are used for every hour of every day?
Are the rooms full at 24 students or less?
What does it take to get a West Elk \ Moline\Howard alumni since there have not been any Howard/Moline/Severy/Grenola graduates since 1974?
Lets lay out our school in a circle so the no one has to sit in the corner.
How do you get more than 50 people from each of the communities involved in the future of the school district?
Your tax dollars are being spent with out you giving your input as to how to go about doing it.
I would like to invite each and every taxpayer in the entire county to ask one question.
Would you like to send your children out of the county to school?
That is what is going to happen if we can't get together and start thinking for the good of the entire county not just one section of the populus.
If we can't become more efficient and produce a better product the every other school in the area we will be absorbed by the larger schools. If we could show that we can do more with less then they(state school board) have to look at little old Elk County as a community that will take care of its self. We are educating children to such a high level with such minimal funding. What would happen if the same system had a decent budget?
What is wrong with one school for the entire county? One district for the entire county? One goal of giving our kids the best education available in the state. We are very good at teaching at west elk. We have gotten caught up in the NCLB crap and forgot about the students that are not in danger of being left behind.....
We need a business program at WE.
We need a foreign language from K-12. With emphasis on Chinese....They are going to be our employers.
We need to expand the Vo Ag to include agribusiness.....How about some accounting? Marketing of ag products.
Spend some of the special education budget on the gifted program....They are the brightest they should get the biggest piece of the pie. If you can challenge them they will bring up the entire student body.
Our goal should be at least 10 Rhodes scholars by 2020.
You go Pep! You Rock!! 8) 8) 8)
Just a question, West Elk has 3 schools - Grade schools in Severy and Moline and the High School. I was online looking to see if there were any teaching jobs open there and only found one in Longton??. Is this because it is a resource teacher position and is considered Special Ed (with USD 282 in charge)?
Effie - Call the district office 374-2113 - they would have all special ed jobs and regular ed jobs available... sometimes we aren't in the 21st century!...
So this job is not part of USD 282?
My understanding is:
Three districts - Longton, Sedan and West Elk - are in a Special Ed Co-op.
West Elk is the lead school for the co-op, so hiring is done through our District office and monies are run through our budget.
Special ed people (resource room teachers and paras) are hired for one of the three specific districts and typically do NOT switch from one district to another unless there are special circumstances and then it still goes through the respective boards.
Thank you for the explanation, I was trying to figure out when Longton joined USD 282!
I hope everyone who attended the EK Community Conversation on Monday night enjoyed the discussions and felt like their voice was heard. The Conversation was very good, in my opinion, and very well designed and managed. To those who didn't attend; you missed a great opportunity for your concerns to be heard in a positive, open-minded, and organized manner. This wasn't the type of meeting where people just stood up and took the mic and complained. This was positive conversation and positive ideas from "we the people". Thanks to the 4 school board members who attended. Although they, too, were there only as citizens and able to voice their own concerns and give their own ideas. I also hope that the feeling of "anti-school board" was banished Monday night, too, as no one complained about the board, but only gave positive ideas for the future of our schools... and the future of all the communities that depend on the schools.
I also hope that this is not the LAST of these types of conversations regarding the schools. Yes, there were probably 60-70 people who attended, but that is only a drop in the bucket of the people in this county who have an opinion, concerns, and kids (or future kids, or past kids) who attend the schools.
Thanks to EK Steering Committee for the great cookies and refreshments and for getting Terry to drive 360 miles one-way to guide this discussion.
There were 90 people (minimum) confirmed in attendance at the Community Conversation. If we want to have more conversations and I would agree that more are needed, citizens must encourage the School Board to do so. Elk Konnected can only organize so many. Ultimately, the Board will have to do this as it is ultimately their decisions to make. So, be encouraging to School Board members to continue the conversation.
Thanks for all who attended. It was a very positive first step.
Stay with us as we grow,
David
Some 80 to 90 residents of Elk County held a "community conversation" Monday night in the West Elk High School commons --- and there wasn't an unkind word spoken during the two-hour session.
Moderated by Terry Woodbury of Kansas Communities, LLC, it was the second such combined conversation of people living in Howard, Moline, Grenola, Longton and Elk Falls plus Severy since it is included within the USD 282 school district.
Since Monday night's meeting included several members of the USD 282 Board of Education, it was necessary for it to be opened and closed as a special meeting of the board.
The meeting was planned by the Elk Konnected organization which tries to pull together the various communities in Elk County and come up with positive solutions to the challenges facing these towns and rural areas. At the apex of their concern are the young people of Elk County and the two school systems which serve the area --- West Elk and Elk Valley.
The evening was spent by split-out groups which at first were divided into the towns where participants reside. The eight groups brainstormed about any and all concerns they have about Elk County then tried to focus upon one positive recommendation to deliver to the larger group.
They then were reshuffled with members of each community included in each group, and they continued their discussions to positive strategies for Elk County's future.
If there was one issue to dominate the discussions, it was the school situation both in West Elk and Elk Valley districts. All expressed concern over decreasing enrollment therefore less state funding for schools.
West Elk patrons were more vocal about their current structure of schools which includes three campuses: West Elk High School at Howard, Moline Grade School and Severy Elementary School. Even though certain streamlining efforts are currently being worked into the district, there remains disagreement over how the future school system should be structured.
Several of the focus groups found consensus that USD 282 should work toward a general idea of one centralized campus, but all expressed concerns over the impact it would have on the towns that would lose their campuses.
At least two of the groups expressed strong feelings that before any centralizing is done, there should be an improvement in communications among the communities in the district. Also, they believed any such plan should include specific proposals about the future use of the school facilities that might be vacated.
But the West Elk school situation was not the total focus of the evening.
"Better communication" remained the biggest concern of the group. While the group was large in number it was a small fraction of the total number of Elk Countians. It will require many such meetings, perhaps one in each town, to gain input of residents and put together ideas for Elk County's future.
"We're trying to rebuild the public square one community at a time," said Woodbury who currently is working with 15 Kansas communities. "That can happen only if we build consensus within every town, every neighborhood and within both school districts."
Among comments from Elk County participants:
"We've got to more than hang on and survive in Elk County. We want to thrive and improve our lifestyles."
"We've got to ratchet up our communications between our towns." "The people in our school districts need to have more access to our school facilities, especially evenings and weekends."
"We should share some curriculum between Elk Valley and West Elk schools, which would expand our class offerings."
"We need a Grow Your Own concept for bringing back teachers, store owners, farmers, ranchers and other vocations. Let's train them to stay here and help us make a future for ourselves and our children."
"Aggressively work in economic development as a countywide project."
"Develop the best possible virtual classes using modern technology. Link with other schools not only here in Elk County but throughout the state and nation."
"Work on a dynamic public relations program to make sure our own residents are saying the same thing, seeking the same goals."
"Look into green concepts as we make facilities improvements. This may lead to successful grant applications."
"Focus on quality in everything we do."
"Keep moral standards high on our priority list. Our children, parents, teachers and administrators must strive to be good citizens."
"Above all, work together to put our children first. They are our future."
The Elk Konnected steering committee which is composed of Andrea Arbuckle, Nancy Barker, Richard Fish, Liz Hendricks, Sally Morgan, Dave Sanchez and Dave Whetstone will compile findings of Monday night's meeting (as they relate to the school district) and report them to the next meeting of the USD 282 Board of Education, next Monday night, Dec. 8.
Woodbury commented, "We did not come here tonight to make decisions. We came to talk among ourselves and try to understand the views and concerns of our neighbors."
Rudy, Thanks so much for your very well worded account of the Community Conversation. I truly hope people stop, read, reread, and read as many times as it takes to hear what went on in those two hours. Then I hope they positively discuss it and add their own hopes and concerns for our Elk Konnected area. Yes, we can find solutions by pulling together and truly listening to positive ways to make progress. Barbara
Before we build a thing we have to get the school more efficient. We have to eliminate as much waste as possible. I am talking about physical stuff.
- Recycle every thing
- Compost what will not recycle
- Use every square foot of space available
Install airlock set of double doors on the south wall of the commons/cafeteria
- Do we have compact fluorescents where we could use them
Move the band/vocal to the stage/auditorium use the music room for sixth grade
- Could we replace the Metal Halide fixtures in the Gym with T5 Fluorescents
Speak Spanish on Thursdays
- Replace common area lighting switches with motion/occupancy sensors
Sell corporate sponsors on the school
- Install individual thermostats on all the steam heated classrooms in Moline grade school
Turn out more tomatoes from the greenhouse
- Teach to the level of the student not the age of the student
Communicate to your boss....Us the taxpayer
- Change the name of the grade schools to west elk
Combine/Disolve the current alumni system
- Find viable uses that employ many people at the Moline and Severy buildings ie...Regional recycling center, distribution for east and west coast production companies, Wind energy education center, Hospice center, Community health and wellness center, shopping mall, Cheese Factory
- Switch Severy from gas to solar heat with electric backup
Buy a propane generator set up outside of the city limits and provice electricity
- Make the computer system available and all programs accessible from all points of the district
More life skills. Balancing you check book, accounting, balance sheets, credit card management, get a job keep a job
WE RULZQuit using the executive session
We have a possible budget shortfall of about $330,000 next year.
That is about 8(eight) full time tenured staff.
Gone.......
We still have every bus we have ever owned. We are talking about building a new facility ...with a practice gym....maybe fixing up the old high school(WE)..........not a snowballs chance in hell the new grade school will be built on the site of the old grade school.
We didn't get a timely responce from the neighbors so we won't knock on their door again any time soon?
We still have three practice times on separate days. We utilize three schools.....Where is the efficiency that we were supposed to be looking for three years ago when we only had a $150,000 short fall. We were talking about closing one day a week, eliminating programs, shorting business and Spanish is all I have seen.
How big is our existing facilities? When does the roof need to be replaced on the rest of the schools not just the current problem. If you build a flat roof you will always have a flat roof.....Pitch it and it will run water.......This was not invented after the current school was designed.
How can we go forward if we don't know where we are. How much does it cost to keep the lights on every day at each of the three facilities.....Gas.....Sewer.....Water...Water that is not palatable drinkable or unsafe should not be purchased and consumed by an elementary school student. We better not be paying for water that we have to treat again... If we can afford to provide a water filter for water than I assume that we can afford an emergency generator for all the schools, reserve gas supply for when the line breaks or the price is going to go up, enough water storage to put a fire out in the building should it ever need to be.
$161 per square foot.... That is what a new building costs.
That is $96,600 per classroom. Plus hallways that is $161,000. Plus bathrooms $193,200 plus caffeteria $515,200 plus kitchen $386,400
....I get 2 million dollars.
OK..then there is..Books $200,000.....12 Teachers $510,000 copier $5600 one laptop $1500 ........annual VPL invoice $3000.......
....I can only come up with .....$2,941,900
How do the big guns get $14 million?
Is a 86,956.521square foot print really needed for a school building in Howard, Kansas?
Why can't we have school in churches until the building gets built? They sit empty all week. A better teacher never walked this earth. We could bus the town in about 12 minutes. Miss your bus walk to class........Just like a real job with commuting...only you don't get paid.
How can we use the classrooms when they are not being used for class? How can we utilize the area of the commons and hallways for civic or multipurpose. Why does there have to be a hall way between classrooms why can't there be another class room or better yet a multipurpose room. Walk through English to get to Spanish. Walk through Chemistry to get to Trig.
Put the ag shop in the west barn in a Info Link sponsored barn with state of the are student id cards. If microsoft can build an entire town surely some one would sponsor a class room.
The information from the Community Conversation of Dec 1 conducted by the Elk Konnected Steering committee was presented to the West Elk School Board last night. I have listed that information here. This information is taken directly from the written material produced by the participants. It has been organized by themes but otherwise not changed and no conclusions drawn by us. If you would like a hard copy of this information, please contact one of the Steering Committee members.
David Whetstone
Elk Konnected Steering Committee
Community Conversation
Our Schools and Our Communities
December 1, 2008
Round tables of eight persons were formed by community. They were to find consensus on their three top issues/concerns/problems.Severy/Piedmont
Money/$
> Federal, state, local funding used in an efficient way
> Tax issue on our city if we lose population
> Concern for health and safety for our kids. Concern for the financial issue for the district (i.e. busing, class size).
Save School
> We do not want to lose our school!
> We don't want the Severy School shut down
Planning
> Have a vision/plan for our district.
Employment
> Concerns for the employees losing their jobs.
Quality of Education
> Take the steps to provide the highest quality education we can provide.
Share Leadership
> Can we share superintendent with our counties.
Moline/Grenola/Elk Falls
Community Health
> Health of our community without a school in town.
> School issues may/will cause continued division of communities/county.
Family Involvement
> Families not a part of education.
Population Loss
> Rural population loss affecting the student's education and preparation of the future.
Quality of Education
> Maintaining quality education and teachers living within the town they teach in
Money/$
> Concern about increase in costs and taxes of building new or maintaining present buildings.
Howard
Quality of Education
> Quality of education more well rounded; courses offered physics, accounting, journalism, advertising, etc
> Teachers need to be evaluated for moral standards so that students receive the best education, discipline and mentoring needed with strong administration to enforce it.
> Electives are needed to prepare kids for the technology age.
> Curriculum expanded – more emphasis on academics and vocational and less emphasis on extra curricular.
> Advertise the strengths of our schools (test scores, success of post secondary and military, quality of teachers).
Growth
> Growth community/school
> Maintain and increase enrollment
> Promote housing for families
> Industry to area and this will have to involve community as well as school
Planning
> Continue community input conversations.
> Vision for District. Both short and long term planning.
> Long term sustainability whether one school district or two (USD 282/283).
Centralize
> Centralize school system
> One grade school, centrally located.
> One school on consolidated campus with emergency facilities.
The second session of round tables of no more than eight persons were formed with each having representation from each of the communities listed on page one. They were charged with finding consensus on solutions, ideas, plans.
Promote/Advertise
> Advertise our schools excellence! Help bring in more students, families.
> "Sell our school" ? Promote
> Advertise our strengths on our schools and our communities to strengthen businesses and communities.
> Promote our community (test scores, community support of youth, natural beauty).
> Advertise school and communities (TV/compute) (test scores, scholastic achievements, scholarships, 4-H, churches, restaurants, small town feel
Quality of Education
> Work together as an Elk Konnected community to put the educational needs of our children first.
> Maintain current quality of education and high teaching standards.
> Make an informed decision in a timely manner by doing thorough research to get the highest quality of education with financial resources available and research alternative uses for facilities. This means prioritize, develop a vision and a plan. We suspect that means one campus and a dynamic PR program.
Communicate
> Continue efforts for better communications among different communities – post the school board agenda on Elk County Forum and in the newspaper so that everyone is informed.
> Communication is the key. Communicate about bond issue and current situation (financial).
> Communication – School Board to communicate with the public and reach out to other schools for ideas – KASB
Community Friendly
> Encourage district to use facilities in a more "Community" manor (without fees) –example: after "school hours" use of gym; community gym time; youth activities
> Industry brought into existing buildings if school centralized into one campus.
> Making school more community friendly – open gym, community wellness center
Closing/Options
> Closing of a schools to build one centralized campus brings opportunity for grow through use of elementary school buildings in Severy and Moline.
> Win-Win ("Our School") If we lose our elementary school, what plan do we have for the lost schools
> Centralized school: add on to central building; build green school to get grants; develop plan for unused buildings in communities (rec centers, storm shelters); create storm shelter for school
Combine w/ other district
> Encourage explorations of combining strengths of both school districts. i.e. one county school board, superintendent, teleclasses for foreign languages and physics
> "Grow your own..." teacher, nurse/doctor, welder, auto mechanic; community support ($) for post-secondary education; internship, apprenticeship in the community; "Community Investment"
Financial
> Structure our school system financially so that we can bring back much needed technical/elective programs/classes.
After attending the West Elk School Board meeting last night, I wanted to update any and all on what I would charactarize as some very positive steps for our community. Mr. Moore suggested to the board that they form a Facilities Advisory Committee. This had been recommended by PBA (architects). They recommend a committee of 20-30 and that their be community representation. They voted to form this committee immediately and attend the January board meeting where PBA will be making some initial presentations. The makeup of that committee will be as follows:
West Elk School Board members - 3: Marty Taliaferro, Jim Roebuck, Roxane Walker
Faculty - two from each building - 6
Mr. Moore - 1
Administrators - 3
Site Councils - two from each - 6
Elk Konnected - 8
Total of 27.
Two other notes about Board Actions last night. Both of which are direct investments in our youth and their education.
1) Purchase of A+LS Softward for Virtual Prescriptive Learning - this will cost $30,500 initially and then a $3,000 annual update/maintenance fee. This will allow a great amount of flexability and opportunity in the high school. It will give alternatives for students having problems in the traditional class room, opportunity for students who fall behind to catch up and graduate with their peirs, and eventually give opportunity for classes not offerred at this time (Spanish, Physics).
2) SCOOT (Students Can Overcome Obstacles Together) - a program initiated by Pam Leiker. It will offer an enrichment program based on Problem Solving. This will offer some additional education opportunities to students that meet certain criteria (have done all of their regular classroom work, making good grades, no behavior issues) to be involved in some educational experience that there is not time for during the regular school day. Will be after school. Will run for four sessions in the second half of the year. If successful and if funding is available, will be expanded to Moline Elementary. Funding was approved.
David Whetstone
Positive conversation changes the world! It appears that we are taking steps in the right direction - very enouraging.... thanks for the update Dave. Let's keep the communication lines open between the school and the community...
Thanks so much, Dr. Whetstone, Liz and others who are working to keep Elk County moving in a forward direction.
Yes, thank you for posting this information. I was unable to make it to the meeting due to being ill. These are all wonderful ideas. Thanks again!
:-X I guess there is no new information on the school. The is a meeting Monday for the board to get a glimpse of what the architect's vision of the school is and where it should be in the future.
The entire community needs to be a part of that meeting. It is your child and your school. If you have no kids in school you still pay taxes and need to have input on how it is spent. ???
The financial situation is very dire for our district. :-\ It needs to become more efficient. There should be a general overhaul on how money is spent from the top down. The most expensive item to the most economical. Every gallon of fuel should be weighed against every computer purchased.
If you have a job and get a 50% cut in salary you must reduce your expenses by 50%. We obviously haven't been doing that. We have this mentality that more will come we will save next year.
It is next year.
I can't see into the future but the state money is down to a trickle. I would expect 10-20% cuts for the next 4 years.
New buildings are more efficient to maintain, clean, heat, and cool. Old buildings are cheaper to sit and rot. Spend more money on maintenance, upkeep, and safety upgrades or spend money on efficiency, building designed to teach better, and become more efficient to spend more money on teachers. If we are not paying outlandish gas bills we could have raises. If we didn't have safer bleachers we could have another para.
An update, from my perspective, on the latest School Board Meeting and action -
At last nights (Jan 12) Board Meeting, architects from PBA presented some preliminary information regarding a centralized school (K-12). At the December Board meeting, the Board formed a Facilities Advisory Committee with representation from administrators, faculty, SB members, and parents/public. They were advised to attend the January meeting as PBA would be presenting this information.
I believe that all FAC members were probably present. But, how would you know? I am very dissapointed in that the Board failed to recognize those present as part of the FAC and, more importantly, let them know what their "purpose" or "charge" would be. Yes, the public was allowed to ask questions and make comment. And, yes, there was a meeting of the FAC planned for January 26th at 7 pm at the Severy Multi Purpose room. Additionally, at the request of Tim Moore (good idea Tim), the FAC will be touring all facilities on the 20th starting at 6 pm in Severy. Tours at Howard will follow at 7 pm and Moline at 8 pm. But, I reiterate, this committee does not know what its purpose will be.
The Board needs to show some/more leadership and recognize the members for their service and, again, let them know what is their purpose.
Lastly, to follow up on the formatin of the FAC - this was a decision of the Board. I think a good one. One that I hope will engage citizens of our school district in the decision making. The Board asked Elk Konnected Steering Committee to bring eight citizens to the FAC. Our goal being to get equal representation from across the School District. Our (Elk Konnected) intent is to simply employ the process of citizen engagement and to have an ongoing community conversation. And it is our belief that through this conversation, the best results will be obtained. Whatever they might be.
Get involved and Stay with us as we grow,
David
I wasn't able to attend all of the meeting but I would guess that most of the newly formed FAC group was there... so the public knows who this group is I will list them here and put what group they represent (I think). I for one appreciate these people for taking on this task and would like to say thanks!
ELK Konnected
Beth Jones,Tim Moore,Dan Cookson,Matt Hilton,Dana Mills,Mary Mericle,Lynn Thompson,Byrdee Miller
Moline Site Council
Josh Kessinger, Pat Perkins
Moline Staff
Shelia Huntington, Lynne Miller
Moline Administrator
Shirley Hugill
WEHS Site Council
Debbie Zellner,Kathy Price
WEHS Staff
Boyd Koehn,Dana Taliaferro
WEHS Administrator
Corey Reece
Severy Site Council
Nancy Barker,Robin Jackson
Severy Staff
Kate Perkins,Susan Galvan
Severy Administrator
Pam Leiker
USD 282 School Board
Jim Roebuck,Roxanne Walker,Marty Taliaferro
Administrator
Bert Moore
Yes, Liz, I think they probably were. My sarcasm was intentional.
I, too, would like to thank all who have stepped forward to hopefully be part of a positive conversation and process to bring the best education for our kids forward.
David
David, I believe all eight members of the EK-FAC group were at Monday's board meeting (not sure about Beth, but I was seated on the edge of the room and couldn't see very well). I admit I left the meeting with more questions than answers. It's good that we'll be touring the three schools next week so we'll have a better idea of the current arrangements. I agree that we need more direction from the school board as to what they consider to be our purpose.
Yes - Dr Dave - I heard the tone... Indygal - you are right - I think most people have a lot more questions. I encourage those on the committee and the citizens of the community to voice the questions - for short term solutions and for long term solution so that maybe some of these questions can start to be answered. This FAC group could prove very valuable in obtaining answers to long awaited questions... ie distribution of students - where do they live, where do they go to school.... How much do the current buildings cost us to run... can we utilize more than one architect... Is there a way to use space for more than one purpose... would visiting other newly built schools be a valuable tool also... what do we Have to have... what would we like to have and then in the perfect world, what would our dream school look like... Maybe the forum could help other questions surface and someone from the FAC could help get some answers....
Stay with us as we grow!
Are there any 4 day a week schools with our excellent academic record? Do we put dollars before grades? I know that the financial times are very trying but to lower the quality in a depressed economy would not be a service to the graduates for the next 20 years.
How ever miss guided or unique our three campus system is. Expensive....Inefficient....yes.....
But one thing for sure, it does work.
We don't need a second language........
Who cares if you can't debit or credit..... We can always get other people to do our heavy lifting and accounting and interpersonal relationships with people from another country.
I am gather that the future of both buildings Moline and Severy schools are shaky at best.
I would love to see some other side of the square from the communities grab this structure and profit from it. We have a church in town that is just chomping at the bit to build a new building. Why build? Remodel.
Marketing can help you get the building filled with something more economicly positive than a elementary school......Severy is on one of the best highways in the midwest. Why not court some company working to downsize to save money and move closer to their market. East and west coasts are constantly looking for midwestern locations to cut their distribution expense.......Moline is the only city with a rail spur......Where can you build for cheaper than Elk County.
The fact we have no zoning and no crime should be on every tag issued by the treasurer's office.
back to school...... We are not financially prepared to build a school right away.....Why can't we just put in some temporary classrooms for the two to three years that it will take to get to the next step. The centralized campus would save more than the temperal emotional distress that it will cause. Besides uniting a county it would pull all the sides in to be a tighter more efficient machine. If you knew for sure that your child would be going to the same school for thriteen+ years it adds stability to the planning and cost associated with life.
Efficiency right away is more important than stalling for the right time to act. If there is better gym lights, for instance, than why haven't we got bids on relighting the gym. If there is a better water pipe than pvc for the main than why does it take a bond issue to address. I think there is more efficiency in the current building than we are utilizing.
Why does the board react to an insurance companies recommendation,correct me if I am wrong, who is only trying to save its self exposure, faster and more effectively than the body of patrons that pay the entire bill?
What would happen if we get the underwriter to send on company letter head that there needs to be one campus for the efficient teaching of the children in the 282 district?
Last nights school board meeting was long. But only because the board engaged in a lengthy discussion about the financial issues that face our district and the possible solutions to satisfy the budget. The discussion was good. All board members were engaged and spoke. They spoke of their constituents concerns and desires. I commend the board for having this discussion. They need to continue to discuss this to find the best solution.
Everyone knows now that all options are on the table. That includes closing one of the elementary schools. Many other options exist. If you have an opinion, you should call or write to your respective board member. If you don't feel comfortable calling a board member, call a Facilities Advisory Committee member and voice your concerns/desires to them. I think it likely the board will and must take some action at the March meeting.
This might be a good time to discuss all options on this forum, so that they will surface and can be passed along to the board.
D Whetstone
I worry that if we close a school now we will lose even more students. Can we afford to do this? I know that it will have to be done, but if we do, could we get an outside member of neither community, to look at the situation and maybe give us their opinion. We need someone that doesn't have interest in either schools to decide which would be better to close. Another parent brought that up to me. Some of the ones making this decision, to close either school, are emotionally involved in either Moline or Severy. And I know we all let our emotions get the best of us.
I also worry that we need to take a step back and look how this school situation is effecting us all. All the communities involved are going to be effected. But the main people that this will effect are our kids. I am concerned that some of the desisions are not at the best interest of our students.
I am also very against hiring Bert back in any position. Because I feel that he doesn't have our, communities and students, best interest at heart. He was really upset when the board voted against his split in July or August. Is he using anger to fuel his fire? That's just my opinion. I know that he does a wonderful job some of the time, but sometimes I think anyone could do the job that he does. Ok, I know that upsets some of you, but I can't help feeling that way.
Whatever we end up doing, someone is going to be upset. That is a fact! I didn't attend the meeting last night, forgot about it, and I hope that I remember to attend the future meetings. I feel, as a parent and tax payer in the district, I need to be more involved in what is going on at those meeting.
I think that I have said before someplace that my two youngest were involved in the big move from Severy High School to North Elk High School. There was a lot of controversy, hard feelings between friends and hurt feelings of people that were trying to do the best for our children. This was because of some people that couldn't stand to lose the high school that they, their children and their grandchildren had attended. But what is a building when it becomes too unsuitable for the new situation.
I had already compared Howard High School and Severy High School and found Severy wanting. Our kids were not getting all the benefits that the Howard kids were getting. (Benefits isn't the best word, but the best word eludes me right now.) This was because the Severy district just simply couldn't afford the extras that Howard provided. What I am seeing now is similar, even though all schools are under the same management. The district just simply can't afford to support 3 learning centers.
What we need to do is support and encourage our people that have to make the decisions so that they can work without having to duck the uninformed, etc., and I think you all can think of some of the etc.s. As long as they are keeping us informed as to what can be done and what cannot be done, we should keep our negative comments to ourselves, ask intelligent questions and respectfully pass on any ideas or information that might be helpful. The board members that I personally know are willing to listen to reasonable people but why should they have to listen to the raving and ranting that is based on not wanting to lose the local school. Actually, nobody is losing a school, it is just being moved to a new location. I think that you all know that I am all for progress and what is best for the children. While I hate the idea of the Severy Schoolhouse being closed (all my children went there), if it is in the best interest of the children, then it needs to be closed.
My oldest was in the third grade when the Severy schoolhouse was built. That was 50 years ago. And isn't the Moline school building even older?
Thank you, Dr. Dave, for the school board meeting recap. I was obligated to attend a different meeting last night and by the time it ended around 8, I was too tired to try taking on another one. I do hope there were several from the community in attendance; I also hope everyone understands that, as a school district, decisions are going to be made that will please some and infuriate others. It's important for parents, especially, to put their own interests aside and think of what's truly best for their children if they want them to have the best possible education they can in Elk County. If that means closing one or both elementaries and consolidating, then we need to decide the best way to pay for that plan. What is clear, or should be, is leaving things as they are isn't going to work much longer. Change is hard (and as Pam recently posted in Daily Enlightenment, is a guaranteed way to make enemies), but change we must if our school district is to survive.
I agree with you and Wilma that we can't go one like this. I know that change is going to happen. I just feel that the district might lose to many students right now if we close one or the other. But if that is the only way that we can survive, than that is what is best. I just feel that the board is doing a bad job of reporting the information to us. But we haven't gotten the paper for this week yet there may be news in it about what happened at the meeting. I have heard that there were positions cut already. It is sad to lose the teachers that they cut. I am very sad for one of them, she is an amazing teacher and will be greatly missed by all. I think she is doing a wonderful job teaching our students.
But at least they have given the teachers time to look for other jobs else where. I just knew what the board had in store when they cut those positions. I mean, are we closing a school and combinding them, are we going to 4 day weeks with the split, or what. Do we need those teachers to fill teaching positions?
There are so many questions and right now no true real answers for us. I understand it is a hard decision and it takes time. I am just a concerned parent. I have young children that will be affected by the change and it just worries me. I do have the education to teach my children if needed at home, but I feel that our schools are so great that they would benefit so much from them. I guess I just worry most that there will not be a school in a couple of years if something isn't done soon.
I do commend the people that are on working so hard to come up with a plan. They are putting lots of time and effort into making the best and right decision for all.
I heard a really good quote recently...
"People like change. It's the transition that scares them."
If there suddenly appeared a brand new grade school in Howard that was equipped with all the teaches, staff, and equipment the students need, I doubt you'd hear 1 person complain about closing the old schools.
Also, I was out in Dighton last week (I believe they are a 2A school, too), and starting Feb 1, their kids have a 1 hour longer school day. They will dismiss school for the summer on April 30. It also sounds like they won't start back to school until after Labor Day in Sep (instead of the normal mid-August starting day).
Tobina, You are right about transition! People just don't think things will work out for what they consider the best, so it causes them great anxiety. Whatever happens, school will go on, and it will go on very well with a good education. It could be so much worse for the students of West Elk. We are very lucky in this district to have good teachers and staff that do care about the children.
Mayflower
The State of New York is also thinking about shortening all the activity seasons - by 2 or 3 games each - to save on money.
In one school district, each teacher donated one day instead of laying any teachers or staff off
To my knowledge, I think they are to decide something on Monday at the school board meeting. Does anyone know????
They decided quite a bit at the last meeting. They RIF'ed five positions (Rader, Miller, Jarred, Foster, and Rodgers) for the 2009/2010 school year.
Teachers can and maybe should teach two grades in each class. My mother plus all country school teachers taught all eight grades. This would mean cutting back on teachers, and I know that is a problem. We would hate to lose teachers but something needs to be done.
Update following the School Board meeting on Monday, March 9th.
The Board voted (4-3) to keep both Elementary buildings open for the 09-10 school year. Both will have Pre-K and Kindergarten. 1st-3rd grade will attend Severy and 4th-6th will attend Moline (Yes, 6th grade is being moved back to the Elementary program for now).
Take a deep breath. Exhale. Try that again. Now, consider the following before passing judgment on the above decision.
The long-term financial feasibility of keeping both buildings open is non-existent. The consensus (as I perceive it) is to build a central Elementary school at the West Elk Jr/Sr High site in Howard. This will be the long-term solution that will give our kids the best education.
To close one building, whether it is Severy or Moline, risks losing some students (could be a large number; may be a few) to other neighboring districts. Once a central school is built, those students are likely not to return.
Five independent "consultants" evaluated both the Severy and Moline buildings/campuses. The consensus of all five? Both buildings are in poor condition. Neither is a good long-term solution. Both could be continued to be used for the short term. Two of the consultants favored Moline. Two favored Severy. The fifth said that either building would be fine for 1-2 years but favored Severy if for 5-10. Some of the consultants put numbers (scoring) to the test. The final scores may have favored one building or the other but only by slight margins. Statistically, I don't think the differences were significant. It would be splitting hairs to say one building is superior to the other. I would suggest that those making arguments for either building (utility costs at Severy, elevator costs at Moline, mold growing in the Severy gym, roof repairs at Moline, plumbing repairs at Severy, etc, etc, etc) don't have much to argue. The bottom line is, again, we have two poor facilities.
The Board did form a Facilities Advisory Committee. The FAC did meet once. They had by all accounts a good and productive meeting. The largest number of members favored closing one building and consolidating into the other (I think some favored this as long as it was the "right" building). But that number was not a majority. There was not a majority or clear consensus for any option.
I believe, in the end, the Board made the right decision. They have their eye clearly on the long-term solution and that is to send a bond issue to the voters with the intent of building a central Elementary school. This current plan, in my opinion, preserves the most students/families until that plan becomes reality.
No solution in the short term is good for all. I believe any short term option will make it difficult on everyone in some form or another. But I think this is the best of the options currently available. We will all have to sacrifice and work to make the best of a difficult situation. But we can do it. It is evidenced by many events in our "community" that when times are tough we can pull together and help each other. I think it is time for us to apply that same attitude and spirit to our kid's education.
Stay with us as we grow,
David Whetstone
Thank-you David, for that great overview of the meeting. I agree, breath in, breath out. Repeat.
I've stated before, "everyone likes change... it's the transition period that they hate." Just keep the long-term goals in mind and don't let your past prejuduces and pre-formed opinions get in the way.
Dr. Dave - you did a great job recapping the meeting last night. I counted over 45 citizens, staff, & teachers there. The board has spent a lot of time on this issue, had a lot of discussion last night. I too felt the independent studies were very helpful (probably ought to have one done for the high school too). I wasn't in favor of the split last year, however, I still feel it is a better solution than closing one grade school for the short term and moving all the kids to the other. At the Feb meeting, they eliminated two elem teachers, so it would appear all the rest of the elem teachers are "safe" although several will probably have to move buildings and change grade levels. It too appeared to me that the board had reached a consensus that the long term solution was one campus. If they can design a modest building, I truly feel the savings of moving to one campus will be about the same as the cost to build a new one - that is just an uneducated guess. I think it is important that we keep encouraging our board members that they must pursue the long term, that the short term will not be a long term solution. Again, the board really wrestled with the issues last night... probably several didn't sleep well last night. Remember these are elected officials and do not get paid a dime to serve our community... let's keep supporting them through this tough time!... Stay with us as we grow
I just came across the following today, a 32 page report entitled:
Renovate or Replace - The case for restoring and reusing older school buildingsIt deals with what to do or has been done with old school buildings in Pennsylvannia. I'm not advocating any specific course of action, but will interate that whatever the structure of Elk County Schools in the short and long-term, any current buildings, and some from the past, need to be utilized in a manner that is contributory to the overall vitality of the area, and not allowed to become unproductive drains on society.
I provide a link to this report so that it may provide some insight to those of you working through this issue in Elk County.
http://www.activelivingresources.org/assets/restoring_older_schools.pdf (http://www.activelivingresources.org/assets/restoring_older_schools.pdf)
Please scroll through the entire report as it doesn't have a table of contents, but contains many sections, among them:
Many Older Schools Can be Renovated to 21st Century Standards
Renovating Older Schools Can Help Conserve Resources, Revitalize Older Communities
Well-Constructed Buildings Can Last Indefinitely With Systematic Renovations
Public Schools Form an Essential Part of Architectural Heritage
Neighborhood Schools Can Help Keep Older Communities Vibrant
Old Buildings Can Be 'Green' Buildings
I hope I have been of service,
Charles
Yes, Dave thanks so much for the information. I couldn't attend the meeting and prayed that night that they would reach a discussion that is best for the communities and the school, not for any certain outcome. I feel that we have to do what we have to do to keep on track for the long run. And if it means that I have one in Moline and two in Severy that is o.k. I feel that the education that our children receive is to good to pass up and it is what is important in the all of it. Not that they are all together in one building, or whatever. My main goal as a parent, when it comes to education, is that they get the best education. I feel that is being acheived at our schools. I also commend the board members, some of them will also have to deal with children at different schools. But they made this discussion for our schools, not for themselves or for any certain person. I wasn't for the split at first, but taking time to really look at the situation and hear different things, I to feel that this is best. I also have been praying that I could overcome my personal feelings and think what is best for the kids. And I believe they will be fine. Actually, my oldest who will be at Moline is excited! She thinks it is great that she will have a locker.
Thanks also to all the community members that attended the meeting. This shows lots of support for our school system!! And also the individuals that were on the committes that put all the work into finding solutions. Your work is greatly appreciated!!!
It only took a year but we have a plan for what we will do next year with our grade school kids. Exactly what was board suggested to do last summer but didn't.
We have a plan for the long term......One campus, with an emphasis on the one. It might take 30 or 40 years but we here in the Elk county area will get it right. And on our terms. Nobody is going to quench our funding to try to make us more efficient. We still have no reason to change but we are going to just because we want to. We have buried the hatchet, gave up on the four day week, fired half the staff, and still have not saved a dime for the future. We still are travelling over 100 miles to go to ball games, math relays, and transporting every student to and from their front door.
We have great reason to start working together.
The MEG/LSO is finally combining. It is like we are finally realizing that we have the same interests in the same students and the same school. The infighting and out fighting is settling out and the I will never's will come to terms with the it will be a cold day when's.
Sixth graders and Kindergartner's ;D alike are getting the recognition that they deserve. Planning for the great day is in the works.
Except on the PE night program. :'(, student teacher conferences, staff meetings and computer access...........
I think we need to scrap all the computers that we have at the high school and buy every student a laptop. Every student needs to be tested by computer program so every student should have access to a computer at all times. Computers should be replaced every two generations. Why not get displays planted in the backs of the seats and teach the students while going to and from school, games, and trips? Why can't you catch up on your homework while the driver brings you home? Start assigning bus work. Extra credit for not driving and riding the bus. Every new vehicle on the market has a heads up display for movies and games, why not one for smarter kids?
Since we have decided to baby all students all the time picking them up in the yard next to the ten speed and dropping them off between the garage and the front porch why not provide some insentive to make all students have the same experience as the pre-schoolers.
Most of the high school still drives to school every day. The parking lot is packed. Even when fuel went to $4 a gallon the lot was still full. The money is there to spend on gasoline so why not hardware.
The state won't let us keep busses over twenty years old because they are unsafe. We need two in the next few years. I think we need to look at different models for each application and more efficient fuels....ie propane, hydrogen.... The pre-K students need to be picked up in a stable vehicle that stresses safety over anything else. Like a H2 Hummer. With GM trying to sell of the division we could get a fleet discount. They get 9-12 mpg just like a thirty passenger bus. The Severy and Moline students with parental concerns for the amount of time spent in transit from home to school could be picked up in 140mph vehicle such as a Corvette or Ferrari.
There would be a small up charge for getting your student to school before they leave home but this has been you concern, the time it takes to get to school not what they learn or how well they learn it.
Car pooling:
If every single driver only vehicle in the school parking lot grabbed a grade school kid and took them to school we would not need buses.
When we go to far away events like the math contests, why don't we buss pool with other schools? You can't tell me that the other teams volleyball team fills their 40passenger trip bus any more that ours does. It would take some logistics or cooperation but so what. If you are scared of the other schools than don't get out of your house because people are people. Where they live is usually based on what they do not who they are.
I know it sounds crazy but I am just going with the flow.
Is it for sure they are having a special board meeting on monday to change what they decided last meeting?
Thanks
Venessa
You know, they make their minds up and change! Most of the students know about the change and are excited. Why change? Personally, I don't want my 1st grader up stairs, but whatever they decide I am sure that will be fine. My biggest grip is that they can't make up their minds. They voted it pasted why not stick to it. But who know, maybe we can't still run both grade schools. We will just have to find out!
Are we sure they're discussing/changing their decision? Is it possible that they have other details in regard to the matter that have to be worked out? I would think someone might have more information................ ? One thing is for sure.... :-\ it could be a very long time until August!
I don't think that any kids will be on the upper level of the school. Especially 2nd and below because it's against state law, at least that's what they said at the last meeting. We just want it to be over so we know where we stand.
I don't think that anything will be over until August. Until that time no one will know what is going on. They can change and change and change until their hearts are content. And they will probably do that. >:(
This is on the school website today...
USD 282 will hold a special school board meeting on Monday, March 23, at 7:30 pm in the WEHS cafeteria.
On the agenda: Facilities Discussion and Facilities Action.
strictly third hand.... but heard late tonight that no change (from the original change) had been made. Not sure what all went on....maybe someone with more reliable details can fill us in.
The West Elk School Board in fact made no changes to their previous decision regarding the Elementary program.
Roxanne Walker made a motion to switch the attendance centers, which would have had the 4th through 6th grades at Severy and the 1st – 3rd grades at Moline. That motion died for lack of a second.
The board did have a lengthy discussion (prior to the motion) and allowed patrons to voice opinion and suggestions. I think all that wanted to be heard were allowed to do so. My tongue wanted to wag but I bit it instead.
The board also approved, at the request of Casey Smith, the formation of a sub committee consisting of three board members (Wolfe, Smith, Roebuck), three administrators (Leiker, Hugill, Reese) and two persons knowledgeable about construction (Patrick Perkins, Matt Hilton). This sub committee will look at the West Elk site in Howard and help determine where to place an elementary school and what other changes might be made to the site. This would be given to an architect to start their process.
Disclaimer: much of what I might say from this point on in this post is editorial.
I think the board did a good job tonight in discussing and allowing for input and discussion from the community members who attended. Although the meeting, in retrospect, may have appeared unnecessary (no changes made), I think it was wise to allow the discussion to proceed. They gave everyone their due.
I suspect, based on the tone of the discussion, that the meeting was called due to pressure/complaints from school patrons/parents. It appears that "threats" have been made that if the plan that was passed at the regular March board meeting is left in place, students will be moved to other districts (Central Burden, Sedan, Elk Valley). I think it is clear that if the plan were switched, students would be moved to other districts (Eureka, Fredonia). There was much discussion about losing more students from the South than from the North. Given our low enrollment already, this difference cannot be great.
I congratulate the board on sticking to their decision. No matter which way they went here, someone, some parent(s) were not going to be happy. I believe it impossible to predict what decisions parents will make for their family or understand why some make the decisions they do. I know many of my clients in Andover have no clue why I would move my kids out of the Andover district to a school district of lesser means. And commute an hour to work to boot. My point - do what is absolutely best for the kids and their education. Continue to look at the long term. People will make their decisions for their own reasons and those reasons will all be different.
Lastly, I think the board would do well to attend School Board workshops conducted by the KASB and/or other organizations. Much is to be learned about parliamentary procedure and parliamentary techniques that can be used. There was much consternation tonight about decisions that were made, decisions that could have been made, decisions that might be made in the future, whether or not enough time for discussion was allowed, etc. Understanding how decisions can be delayed (time outs) to allow for more discussion, reflection, etc would serve many of the board members well. When the last KASB meeting was held in Wichita, the board members were advised of the meeting, told to contact the district office if interested, and that the meetings were good/excellent. I don't believe one board member attended a single session. This type of development is important, dare I say critical, to our boards and school districts success. I hope they will take advantage of these opportunities in the future.
D Whetstone
I didn't attend either meeting. I am sorry that I didn't. I do care about my kids education alot!! Sometimes, my husband says to much. My only concern about the situation is that, like I stated yesterday, changing and changing the decision. But I am very glad that the board stuck to their original vote, just because we can't please everyone. I know some people will have to bus their children alot further and are mad about this. But this year, if my children ride the bus from our house, they already have to get up and be on the bus at 6:20, when in previous years it was 7:10. They did this for awhile, and then I started taking them in to work with me. Sometimes we as parents have to give a little for our children. Is it really best to pull your children out of this district into another one? Have they checked on the time that the other school will, if at all pick them up? Would it be just as long of bus ride or not? And this is just a short term thing. Maybe at the most 5 years, right? So, we as parents need to think about the education that they will receive from the other schools that they will send them to. I feel that West Elk does have a great Education system in place, and a great set of teachers. Do we have as much to offer as other districts, maybe not right now, but we could in the future. Every school around is being hit with low enrollment, and less money per child. So most of the schools around us are not in the best boats either. They might not say that, but they are covering it up. Just last week iin the paper, I read that Sedan was lossing students and money like we are and I am sure that Elk Valley is to.
Is it going to be easy on me to have 2 kids in Severy and one at Moline? No, the one that is at Moline has dentist appointments every 4 to 6 weeks for her braces. Her appointments are in Wichita, too. But I, as her parent must be willing to do what is best for her, not always myself. I am sure that before we get a new school built I will have her here in Howard, possibly one at Moline and one at Severy, too. But it has to be done. They have to get the best Education possible, and I feel that they will receive that in this district. I attended school here and feel that I have done alright with my life.
I guess what I am trying to say is think about your child first before you decide to pull them out of this district. Are they going to be getting the same great education that they are getting now? Is the school better? Do they have the experienced teachers that we have? Don't just pull them because you are mad at the decision, make sure you think about them while you are making this decision.
Does your area ever use mobile classrooms that can be set up and moved as the school population changes?
I think that is a feasible possibility to consider, also, at least for a temporary fix. I taught for several years in a portable mobile classroom complete with restrooms, air conditioning, and water, and it worked out very well for elementary students. With so much fluctuation in student populations, the ability to add or shut down units based on current enrollment might be cost-effective. If these units are maintained as any other building would be, they can last for quite a long period of time and even be an attractive alternative. I feel the quicker this district can get everyone on one campus, the stronger the school system will be.
A follow up on my previous editorial comments:
I made comment about how no matter what decision was made some people/parents would be unhappy. I had thought, that given the current climate of school funding/economy, that parents would realize there are limited options. Last year, this same decision was made. Parents were not happy with the arrangement and felt that the system could be left alone for another year. Both Elementary schools were kept open in full capacity (PreK – 5th). I was one of those. I feared losing students from both ends of the school district.
I thought enough time had passed. Parents had been given enough time to analyze this situation; to realize now the limited options; to realize that this is hopefully short term. That ultimately a centralized campus would be more convenient/efficient/cost effective for all.
But I was, evidently, wrong. There has been, as I said, opposition to the plan and threats to move to neighboring districts. I will state, simply, that I don't understand this position. Please enlighten me.
I agree Karen, that portables are the answer. The long term projection is for a shrinking school population. Consolidation is the answer with a community of portables in one location. Building a new school is not the answer in my opinion, we already have schools that we cannot afford to operate and do not need another one. I would however like to see some viable suggestions for the buildings that already exist in Moline and Severy. Would the state assist in demolition or conversion to another use? I think that anything being done should be tied into a solution for the old buildings so that these towns are not left with the same problem as Howard and many other towns in the state. Last year Ted and I made a side trip to Cottonwood Falls as we were traveling to K.C. The town is like many others in rural Kansas, time has passed it by and the current populace is small. The old school is about the same vintage as the Howard grade school, with the roof gone and the second floor caved into the first. You see this in town after town, this sign of civilization going back to the wild. I really suspect that is the fate for this area also, in spite of our best efforts. Unless there are ways to make a living, people will not be moving into the area, no matter how pretty it is, how wonderful the people, or how good the educational system is. The bottom line is economic just as it is with everything else.
Patyrn and Diane,
This option, of portable classrooms, has been discussed. I know there is fear that if these were to be used, that it would be more difficult to pass a bond for a more permanent structure (i.e. if these are good enough now, then they are good enough forever).
Sixdogsmom,
I would not say that portables are not the answer. But a new building would be more efficient to operate. A newere building would actually decrease the financial burden and further free up monies to enhance our educational programs. I think the district (board, administration, and patrons) are looking at the most feasible options as it pertains to costs.
Lastly, I whole heartedly agree that we need to have a plan to utilize the buildings in Moline and Severy. I think this is critical.
I left the school board meeting last night feeling very discouraged and disappointed. I felt that these meetings should have been held before a final decision was ever made. The Board should have been collecting information about the bus routes, utility costs and everything else for the last several years.
Debbie Stange said that she went through the bus routes to see how many kids would be bused from one end to the other and the way it stands now there will be 23 kids bused on both ends. Had they done it the other way with the 1st-3rd at Moline and the 4th-6th at Severy there would only be 16 kids being bused. This did not seem to be taken into consideration by the majority of the Board.
Bob Black brought up that he knew USD 282 stands to lose 12-15 students from the split on the south end and he wanted to know if that was expected or if we could stand to lose that many and be ok. Our expected enrollment for next year is 356 and Burt said that if enrollment falls to 320 or less he would recommend that the board close a school because it would cost too much to run both schools with that low of enrollment. That means if we lose 36 students before August they could very well close a school this summer.
There are a lot of "what ifs" on the table and I feel that a year from now we will be in the same boat, facing a decision of which school to close. If a bond issue does not pass they will have to close a school next year. I personally don't think that we need a new school. I would like to see the annex renovated into the grade school and build a new building to house the Vo-Ag, art room and woods classes. Does everyone want to do that? No. Will it be easy? No probably not. But with our declining enrollment why would we build a new grade school? If our enrollment keeps declining and it will, we will probably be able to do what Longton does and have pre-K thru 12th at the high school anyway.
I thought that Gina Wilson made an excellent point last night about the facts, that if this is a money issue then why aren't we looking at that. Bert had put together what it cost last year to run both grade schools and Moline was the cheaper one to run with a difference of a little more than $10,000.00. That should have a lot to do with the decision and it saddens me that it doesn't. I feel that the decisions that have been made have been based on emotion and politics when they should be based on facts. What I feel needs to be done is take Severy & Moline out of the equation and go by numbers.
We have thought long and hard about what to do for our children in the way of their education and what is best for them. That is why we are probably going to go to Sedan next year and we will most likely not come back to USD 282. Was this an easy decision to make? No. Michael & I both graduated from West Elk and we are glad that we did. But, this is not about us it is about what is best for our children.
Quote from: HoganRanch on March 24, 2009, 01:47:30 PM
Our expected enrollment for next year is 356 and Burt said that if enrollment falls to 320 or less he would recommend that the board close a school because it would cost too much to run both schools with that low of enrollment. That means if we lose 36 students before August they could very well close a school this summer.
That's not entirely accurate, as the state allows you to average your enrollment numbers for the past 3 years. Enrollment declines every year, but funding declines slower than the drop in student population.
Even if the enrollment dropped to 300 next year, we'd still get to use a higher number for calculating FTE.
This is no reason to celebrate, as it just buys you a little extra time.
New school or annex? I really don't know that anyone is looking at the big picture. Everyone is very emotionally involved, that is the problem. It's hard not to let your emotions get in the way. I could have pulled my children about 6 years ago, but decided against it. I was so emotionally involved and mad at the school board and their decision, but decided that the best would be to leave them in the district. Not for me, because if it would have been up to me, they would have been pulled. But emotions aside, all districts in this area are looking at the money crunch. It was in the newspaper last week that Sedan was, and I am sure that Central, and also Elk Valley are too. There is a decline enrollement all around. I don't know a person around this county that isn't feeling some sort of money strain. It's hard times. I do hate to see students leave the district. But if the parents feel that this is what is best for their kids then they are going to do it. Even if their emotions are what is pulling them to do this. I am not trying to rag on anyone, but I think we all need to just wait this out a few months, too. They might get those bus things and other numbers in order and see that they would be better off to either close a school or change which way students are sent. It's so frustrating.
I think that we need to all pray, alot, about this issue!! Pray for the board members, the parents, the facility, and most of all the students. God has a plan for this school system. Pray is mighty!!
Hogan, I hate to lose your children to Sedan. Not that Sedan is a bad school, but hate that it might come down to it. But can I ask, how long will they be on the bus to Sedan? And you are so right about taking Severy and Moline out of it and go by numbers. But doesn't both schools need repairs? Doesn't Moline need a roof that would cost $10,000, and doesn't Severy need somethiing done? I am not trying to be a downer, it's just that neither school is really cost effiecent. The annex thing sounds good to me, but I am not a contruction person.
Keep USD 282 in your PRAYERS!!! That's all that will help this situation!!
I contacted sedan and they said the bus ride would be no more than 25 min. We have family that works at sedan and most likely they will ride with them so busing is not an issue right now. Sedan is also considering going to a four day school week not this year but next year. They sent home letters with each student asking what they thought of a four day school week so that they would have actual numbers before they make a decision. We are for a four day school week anyway.
The other issue is I don't want my kids seperated and at sedan that won't happen.
On the repairs for both schools the board said at last meeting they were not going to do any repairs they were going to put everything on the back burner if you will and if this is a short term fix it really doens't matter.
We hate to leave the district too but every family does what they think is best for their family and that is what we are doing.
I agree everyone needs to pray and pray a lot!!!!
Question: Is the 356 projected student number for grade school K through six? Or is this a number for the entire district including jr and high school? Anybody know, or is this a shuffle number, one that is pushed about to back a particular argument?
Moline and Severy are in need of repairs. Howard is in need of building a new building with a teachers lounge and skylights, and I'm sure we'll need landscaping also.
I am so sad that we could be losing students due to this situation. But I understand your reasons for pulling your children out. I also understand the economic situation we are in and alternatives are few.
I would just like to say this however, those buildings (Severy and Moline facilities) are just that "buildings". It is the people that work there and love and take care of your children that are the heart of the school. It is the teachers, secretaries, principals, cooks, aides, and janitors that the students smile at and hug when they arrive at that "building". The people who spend all day with your children that make them feel safe, secure, and loved not the "building".
I hear you!!!
Quote from: sixdogsmom on March 24, 2009, 04:16:10 PM
Question: Is the 356 projected student number for grade school K through six? Or is this a number for the entire district including jr and high school? Anybody know, or is this a shuffle number, one that is pushed about to back a particular argument?
Current enrollment is around 350, I believe. These numbers are K-12.
2004-2005 was 420
2005-2006 was 404
2006-2007 was 356
2007-2008 was 352
Not sure about current year. Most of this data is on the ksde.org website if you google "USD 282 FTE", you'll find it.
I'm assuming the 356 number is the average of the last 3 years. Gina please correct me if my numbers are off.
Quote from: gina on March 24, 2009, 04:30:52 PM
I would just like to say this however, those buildings (Severy and Moline facilities) are just that "buildings". It is the people that work there and love and take care of your children that are the heart of the school. It is the teachers, secretaries, principals, cooks, aides, and janitors that the students smile at and hug when they arrive at that "building". The people who spend all day with your children that make them feel safe, secure, and loved not the "building".
That could not have been said any better or been more accurate!!!
If your sole reason for leaving the district that you will still be paying taxes in and sending your child to another is distance from the school than what is the logic? Is it the length of time on the bus? Is it just because it is different?
Quote from: gina on March 24, 2009, 04:30:52 PM
I am so sad that we could be losing students due to this situation. But I understand your reasons for pulling your children out. I also understand the economic situation we are in and alternatives are few.
I don't understand your reasons for pulling children out...
Will you allow your children to go on bus trips more than 25 minutes of ride time? I don't think that you can honestly say to your kids sorry you can't go on the field trip because it is too far away? You can't go to the game because it is away not home? I am sure that the statistics will show that is 100 times safer to ride 45 minutes on a two ton school bus twice a day than 5 hours unbuckled in a feed truck. Safety and convenience are not interchangeable.
This is why we all live in this area because we don't like asphalt and invasive lighting. We give up convenience for quality of living. Starry nights are worth at least $2.00 a gallon. These small things like buying more gas are trivial compared to the murder rate, rape, and abducted children of urban centers. We live in Kansas and this is not a metropolitan area with a crack house and middle school on every corner. This is also not a bad thing. We have to appreciate the fact that it is 25 miles to the closest stop light.
How can we ask a community (all of Elk Konnected area) to come together if you are willing to gamble with your kids education at another district and tear apart our Konnection? I do not mean to belittle the neighboring districts but they just don't seem to have produced the quality of graduates that post secondary institutions are looking for. I know not every one goes on to college but shouldn't every one have the educational tools to be able to handle it if they want to?
We are changing the school system not for the current problems of financial instability but for the long term benefits of becoming a more cohesive unit. One school unifies the area. We have had one school for 40 years. We need to have one campus to focus on improving student body by not wasting money on repairs and retrofits in ancient buildings that have served out their useful life. The one campus magnifies the goal of bettering our students.
If we do not have to install roofing, replace tiles and re plumb water fountains we could actually teach. Retaining staff that have gone unrewarded for the quality of service that they have done is easier if you can actually keep up the median earnings.
Yes, I agree, well said, Gina!
OK, here's an idea... let's do RESEARCH! KSHSAA website shows there are 64 high schools in Kansas that are classified as 2A schools. (http://www.kshsaa.org/class.html). I'm betting that every one of those other 63 schools are facing the same budget crisis, decline in enrollment, and teacher issues as we are. So, let's do some research to see what these other 63 schools are doing to fight these trends and if they've come up with some creative ideas that we can borrow...
These are the things I'd like to know from each school...
Size of county (sq miles)
Size of school district (sq miles)
How many towns in your school district. (Distance between towns)
How many school districts in your county. (Size of other districts in county)
How many buildings does your school have (K-12).
How many miles (one-way) are your bus routes. (Average time spent on bus)
How many teachers/staff.
Has your enrollment increased or decreased over the last 3 years; by how much.
What cost-cutting measures have you done over the last year, or will do next year.
OK, found a very useful and interesting website...
http://www.ksde.org/Default.aspx?tabid=223
Click on any county and find out ALL you want about the schools. I only had time to research 1 other school over my lunch break... here's the comparison to EK...
Size of County (sq miles) EK=650, RA=1069
Size of School District (sq miles) EK=541, RA= 740
Population of county (2000) EK=3261, RA=2966
Towns in District (miles between) WE= 3, 7 miles, 12 miles RCHS= 2, 21 miles
Districts in County EK = 2, RA = 1 (although there is a 1A school that serves 1 small town in RA, but school is in CN county)
How many buildings WE= 4 registered w/ state, in 3 towns RCHS= 2 registered w/ state, all in same town
How many children are bused WE= 357.5 students (105 live less than 2.5 miles from school), RCHS= 140 students
(I couldn't find mileage; I'll have to call the district offices)
How many teachers/staff WE= 145.4 RCHS= 57.4
Certified WE= 57 RCHS= 34.5
Of those certified staff, how many in Central office WE= 5 RCHS= 0.5
Non-Certified WE=88.4 RCHS= 22.9
Enrollment numbers over 3 years WE= 360 - 350 - 345 (2006, 2007, 2008) RCHS= 328 - 312 - 323 (2006, 2007, 2008)
I did not yet call these offices to find out what cost-cutting measures they have done. What I find interesting is a few things...
-Size of county and district, with only about 20 students difference (WE has about 20 more, and RA is larger county.)
-Number of miles between the towns that the district serves. Something to keep in mind as you think about how much your own kids in EK have to ride the bus.
- How many students are bused in each of the districts, and why WE is busing so many that live so close to school?
- Number of staff/teachers difference between the school districts is HUGE! WE has over double the amount of staff, for only 20 more kids!
I did not analyze positions of the staff compared between the schools. I do know that RCHS Superintendent is also the Grade school principal.
No, this is not to point fingers at one school or another. This is just simply a RESEARCH project to compare schools and maybe see if it brings to light other cost-saving options. I really want to know what the schools have planned to cut costs; maybe tomorrow...
I think you have found quite a lot. I didn't realize that so many kids were being bussed. I say realized because I do know that a bus goes through this part of town, supposedly to pick up kids or drop them off. Do the buses do this in Severy and Moline, too? Whatever happened to the kids having to get themselves to school? Don't answer that. I know that one, too. Part of the times. Besides this only affects my pocketbook, not my lifestyle.
Question: When West Elk Jr/Sr Highschool was first built, how many students were there? Now this is just for that school, not the grade schools at Moline and Severy.
Ok... nobody quote me on this... but I think the high-water mark for enrollment at WEHS was in the early 90's and somewhere around 450, maybe even close to 500 K-12. Someone with some old yearbooks could probably figure it out if the data isn't on the KSDE site somewhere. Weren't we a 3A school for a while in the 90's?
The busing issue has come up before, and if memory serves me correct, the busing is reimbursed by the state, so you don't really save any money by reducing the number of busses or routes that you run. Again, please don't hold me to that.
But we do have to buy and maintain the buses. Wouldn't that money be better spent on something other than diesel? Just because the state picks up the tab doesn't mean it is a practice that we need to continue. If it is wrong, inefficient, redundant, or just to appease a noisy constituency is not a justifiable reason to continue. I want to know if we could down size the bus fleet to smaller more efficient bus that would be 90%full instead of driving around in 50%capacity larger buses? How would it affect the education of the student if you have to walk a block and a half to the bus stop instead of your front lawn? Maybe we could make up for the fact that we only have P.E. every other day. I have not heard of a single car student accident in the past even during shift changes..... Unless that student is behind the wheel.
If 105 students are with in the 2.5 mile circle of the school I think that 210 shoes might get a workout. It would be good for the health of the student, good for the environment, and good for the bottom line.
It only took the kdot 29 years to put a school zone light on the highway for the protection and safety of our high school children. I am willing to bet the city would paint a crosswalk in at least half that time.
I think, but not sure, that kids that are younger than K or K and under have to be picked up at there house? Not sure, or is this just a safety thing that they have in place? I know that I have preschoolers dropped off at the daycare and they are in the biggest oldest bus that the school has. And there is no way enough of them to fill up the bus. But not just busing is the issue, its also finding drivers that we have a problem with, or at least we have in the past. The daycare is maybe a couple of blocks from the high school, and there are three stops right around here everyday. I would be willing to take my kids to the high school, or let them walk, now that my middle one is half way through kindergarten. But I do have to say that the kids do drive like mad around and up and down Elk street. I have called the sheriff many times regarding this issue. There is a sign that says school zone, or something to that effect on Elk street, but not sure why nothing is done. So that is an issue to me as a parent.
And that should be an issue for the parents of the kids that are driving to school. If the parents don't take a stand, what good does complaining about it do? Perhaps some tickets should be written, costly tickets.
On the busing issue; here's another reason I thought of why WE has to bus so many kids... Yes, kids may live 2.5 miles from SOME school, but maybe not the one they have to go to. i.e. Howard K-5 kids may live 2.5 miles from the high school, but they have to still be bused to either Moline or Severy.
The other thing that I'm surprised hasn't brought more discussion is the difference in the number of staff... over twice as many for only 20 more kids. Yes, I realize that having 3 buildings means 3 sets of janitors, 3 sets of cooks, etc, but our comparison school has 2 separate buildings, too. No, I'm not suggesting going in and slashing jobs, BUT analyzing those jobs and determining what is really needed would be a good start. (Also, keep in mind that these staff numbers were full-time equivalents, not just people.)
On that note; here are some differences...
Assistant Principals: WE=1.0 RCHS= 0.1
All other teachers (does not include special ed, vocational, pre-K, or K): WE= 24.6 RCHS= 27 (Now does that seem odd?)
I think where the biggest difference is (and maybe someone can explain this to me?)... under Non-Certified Personnel, Special Education Paraprofessionals... WE= 53 RCHS= 6.7
Wilma; I know it only affects your pocketbook, but if you're asked to pay more taxes to support this continued types of inefficiencies, will you really be willing to do it? That's why EVERYONE in these communities are affected and need to know the facts. As a wise man once said... "Someone paid taxes for me to get an education, so now it's my turn to pay taxes to give some other kids an education." (Thanks, DD!)
Thanks Mark for your response. Now this is where I am going with this; if 450 children were attending school at the current building at West Elk, why couldn't the building be revamped to accomodate 350 children? Even if an additional gym needed to be built, that and a few portables should serve for the shrinking student body. A classroom designed for 30 students should not need to be heated/ cooled for 10 students. Why not teach more students per square foot than we are currently doing? We would have a central campus that would reduce busing, and I for one would like to see a very close look at student drivers. Is there really a need, or is this just a right of passage?
Tobina: I am never willing to pay more taxes but I can't see any other way I can do it. At my age it is up to the younger and more energetic to do what is best for the children, community and me. When it was my turn to support or not support a change in the school district, I supported it. I don't know if it were better or not, but I thought it would be better for my high school age kids. I had already seen the difference in what Howard offered their students and what the Severy students were being offered. I don't think I was wrong.
At one point in the early/mid 90's there were 530 students in all three schools at West Elk. There was a influx of Grenola students at that time. A gradual decline started after that. The reason there are so many non certified paras at West Elk, is the fact that number includes the paras at Longton and Sedan as West Elk is the Special Ed Coop for those districts too.
The more time I have had to think about the new school year and the changes it will bring, I have become rather excited for all of the new opportunities it will bring. I am so looking forward to bridging the gap between the three communities, and work positively to make USD and even better, more cohesive educational system. I think it is wonderful that the children from each community will have the chance to meet new friends and develop new relationships that will last longer than just their junior/senior high years. I think that in the long run this is truly a positive move, and I hope that we as a community can move forward and do what is best for our children at West Elk America.
Well said, Gina! USD 282 and the children you teach are fortunate to have you as a teacher. I wish parents who
threaten to take their children out of this district next year would reconsider, especially after reading what you have said here.
I want teachers like you interacting with my children. Let my children see a positive attitude, teamwork in action, a community that cares about what is best for our chilldren's future, overcoming obstacles, accepting change, working together for the greater good, compassion, integrity, and leadership.
I don't want my children seeing adults complaining, threatening, taking sides, creating enemies, forging bitter alliances, losing life-long friendships, and minimizing the importance of a clean, safe, updated school building.
Our children are watching. Actions speak loudly. Thank you, Gina, for your integrity.
Every school district has it's positive and negative factors, and those factors are different for everyone because perceptions,opinions, and expectations vary. My children have good grades, excellent teachers, a wonderful community, tons of friendships. This far outweighs ten extra minutes on the bus. We will be standing by 282 and working toward positive changes.
Gina! What a wonderful statement to make on behalf of the children and school patrons in Elk County.
Your example is typical of the teachers I've met in both Elk Valley and West Elk schools.
You are going to pay more taxes with or with out a new school. The choice you have is do you want to spend your hard earned tax dollars on repair and maintenance or books and learning. The school buildings are old and inefficient. The three campus model is old and inefficient. We are looking for efficiencies in all areas. But don't forget to do the math for the long term. A $2 patch is a $2 fix every year. If you could fix it right for $10 once look how much money you save after 5 years. Things don't get cheaper. Opportunity cost is always the best cost not the cheapest option.
We spent $1.2 million on the grade schools for what....If we would have spent $12 million we would not be still having this conservation seven years later.
If we don't become more efficient now it does not matter what we do in the future because it will be someone else's problem. I have seen the expenses for all three schools and the ones that stands out the most to me is the cost of utilities at the high school.
The newest and best building we have is very very expensive to operate. Simple things that were designed 35 years ago have had their time to play out. For instance the south doors. We have two sets of single swing doors facing south. Every industrial arts, art, voag, or plain old student going to or from school uses it every day to get to class. Every volleyball/wrestling/basketball spectator from home or the visitor section opens and shuts the door to get in. On the east and west sides of the building are double sets of doors with an air lock between the outside and the heated and cooled interior. How hard would it be to install a new set of doors?
We have 36 lights in the gym that can be turned on to illuminate the area. They use 400watts a piece. 400watt fixtures put out a lot of heat and the reflectors installed only allow down light. It takes about 15 minutes to get to full brightness. If the electricity blinks it takes time for the the lights to cool down then 15 minutes to fire back up(restrike). If we would replace the existing fixtures with new high efficiency electronic ballast fixtures you get a light closer to daylight in color, produces minimal heat, start up takes about 3 seconds, restrike takes 3 seconds, also dimmable ballasts can be set to dim on available sunlight and use less watts per fixture. Clean the sky lights and the more sunlight in the building the less electricity is used for illumination.
We can apply this dimmable light process to every room in the building. If there is ample light from windows or sky lights the interior lights dim. If there is no one in the area the light turns off. There is a reason the coolers in Wal-Marts have lights that turn and off when you walk down the aisle. I also want to know why all the HVAC units are not tied to a central processor. If there is two people in the building then the ac should not be running 24/7. If someone turns up or down the thermostat it should not stay at the elevated/lowered state all night. If the outside temperature is cooler/warmer than the inside the processor could exhaust or bring in make-up air.
We spent thousands of dollars to replace the totally electric heating units with gas fired units for the roof units. Then as we replace all the heat exchangers in the gas units. The commericial units are only 80% efficient. Electric is closer to 100%. Did we trade electric rate for gas rate? Do we buy wholesale gas or units from the city? Westar just got a rate increase is it still cheaper to heat with gas than electric? Could we look at placing 75,000sq ft of solar on the roof? It would be expensive to install but would it pay out if we used it for 30 years?
We have a plan for a civil storm shelter for 500. We have no back up gas storage on site. We don't have back generation capability. We have a storm and we will have hungry scared people for the duration of the event. Shouldn't we plan for something more.
Patrick, I wish more people were listening to you. You seem to have a realistic, pragmatic grasp of what it could possibly take to help West Elk. I read awhile back that some BOE positions were coming open...Are you running? I hope so. You've got the ability to look at all facets of this problem facing West Elk. You'd be an invaluable resource...Not to mention having the ability to play devil's advocate.
Maybe you should build three new buildings. Grade school, middle school, and a new high school, then you wouldn't need any repair or maintenance. Of course they must be in Howard so the children can get a much better education. I'm so impressed that there isn't any repair or maintenance done at the High School.
If, and this is a very big if, because I can't see it happening, 3 new buildings were to be built, I would vote to build them at the junction of 99 and 160. Away from city limits, closed campus with no access from the highways. See why it is a big if?
(Crap, I'm going to hate myself for opening this can of worms...)
So I'd heard that the high school was originally supposed to be built at that intersetction, Wilma, but because of the blasting at the rock quarry, the engineers refused to build there? Is that location safe enough now?
Besides, our communities don't take enough interest in our schools when the school is located just outside of Howard... do we think that they'd take any more interest when they're out in the middle of nowhere (or the school take interest in the communities)? Also, what about water, sewer, etc? At least if you're associated with a city, you can use the city to regulate these issues (and fix them). If you're out in the country, then YOU have to be responsible for making sure the water supply is safe and the sewage is properly disposed of. (Just speculating here... not sure if that location is actually within city limits or not...)
Patrick; what is the size comparison between the high school and the grade schools? I understand there are inefficiencies, but could part of the operating expenses be because of size?
Also, YES Patrick is running for school board. Voting is TUESDAY. I think advance voting is open now, though.
See why it is such a big IF, Tobina? Rural water is available in that area, city sewer would not be as the Moline sewer treatment is on the other side of a small creek. Gas could probably be run to the location, don't know anything about it. I don't THINK it is in city limits. Maybe the small creek wouldn't preclude the sewer option.
And my ballot is in the mail box to be picked up today.
Can I get an absentee ballot please? I can use my old family's address on Limestone road.Ya think I could get away with it? :D
ACORN will help you through the entire process.
;D ;D ;D
Probably too late to apply now since it has to be in by end of voting Tuesday. But you could try.
It has never been suggested that three new schools be built. The discussion for the future has been that the district can no longer support the two grade schools that are of poor quality, and very costly to maintain. Because of the cost that must go into constantly repairing these buildings, there has been little left over to upgrade the high school building. Patrick is correct in that taxes will rise just to do yearly repairs to either of the grade school buildings. Issues are constantly popping up with regards to cost of utilities, problems with the roof, water pipes, mold, etc.
The school board is looking for options of a new grade school, set in a central location, that is cost effective for the community. More of the community needs to attend these board meetings so that they can see first hand the issues that this district is facing and how it will pay off in the long run. The are not looking to spend an excessive amount of money to build a grade school, they believe it could be done without maxing out LOB and could bring the LOB down faster than if we continue on the path we are currently pursuing.
I think that the sarcasm in a post was overlooked. You'll need to add smiley faces or something greatguns, or maybe it's more fun for you this way! ;D
The existing high school has about 68,324sq ft. The grade school addition we are talking about will add less than 30,000sq ft. of classrooms. 15000 more if a new gym/safer room is built with FEMA grant moneys.
If we don't even change the way the grade schools are right now we are going to have many projects in the near future at the high school. There is a need for more class rooms for the addition of physics, foreign language, and the new programs added. More access to computers/media lab is needed. The roof has to be inspected every year for damage and minimal repairs. The gym needs to be air conditioned to be a year round venue especially during hot graduations. There is very inefficient heating in the voag and wood shops. The Radiant tube heaters need updating. The pvc main water lines need replaced. More ventilation for the voag welding area is needed. More electrical outlets are need though out the entire school. WE needs a CCTV security system for the safety and monitoring of the school both inside and out. Gym lighting with daylight compensation would save many dollars. The computer network is very antiquated. The outside fascia of the building is in need of repair rust and 30 years of wear.
What do the tax paying citizens of the district get for their 25 year commitment? Happier more well rounded superior educated students. Fewer but happier teachers. A school to be proud of. Programs that challenge students to do more than just get their GED. More college prep courses. More vo tech focused education. More post secondary classes offered. More efficiency through out the entire district. Less money wasted.
We'll come build it for ya for $100.00 per square foot. ;)
Quote from: greatguns on April 03, 2009, 05:19:30 AM
Maybe you should build three new buildings. Grade school, middle school, and a new high school, then you wouldn't need any repair or maintenance. Of course they must be in Howard so the children can get a much better education. I'm so impressed that there isn't any repair or maintenance done at the High School.
LOL...Yes, I've always been impressed by that, too! :o :o But, seriously, I'm glad that Patrick is indeed running for BOE...I'm sure he'll get elected. Then, he can raise a few waves, play devil's advocate and get West Elk America pointed in the right direction. Sure wish I still lived there...You'd have my vote, PEP! ;D
Mike Bellar will be the new board member for Howard's district. Shelly Hare will be the Severy position. Congratulations to both.
45 total votes for district 5. Wow.......Very impressive.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
I had high hopes for a better turn-out.
I was voter #30, at 9 in the morning.
Sad, isn't it.
I don't know what number I was, but I took advantage of the early voting on Monday before I left town for 2 days.
I wonder why the paper didn't cover more about these elections and do interviews of the candidates? I'm sure with all the towns they have to cover, it's hard to do interviews with all the candidates for every position, but this instance would have maybe helped with voting numbers.
Let me clarify. The smiley's are for Joanna.
Tobina: I agree completely. How were people to determine who to vote for? We didn't even know what these people stood for or what they hoped to do for our schools. Without interviews etc. it seems like the voting was a personality contest or something like that. Based on what were we to make our decisions and vote? I voted, but I'm not sure what issues I voted for.
Quote from: greatguns on April 08, 2009, 05:37:14 AMÂ :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Thanks! I needed that... or at least someone did ;)
On another note,
I thought I was #125 in mid afternoon, but maybe I was mistaken, or maybe that was total and not just Dist.5
I didn't feel like I had much info about the candidates either, but I feel like it's mostly my own fault for not checking into it ahead of time... not like I couldn't have found any of them on the street and asked a couple questions if I'd wanted to. It would be easier with a newspaper interview or two, but like Tobina noted, the paper can't be everywhere all the time ~ and maybe we should have asked for it before the election. Live & learn.
I agree, I would have thought that there would have been at the very least letters to the editor from the candidates stating their positions and ideas concerning the positions they sought. Maybe next time, ----Hmmm???
I have to say, that either Mike or Patrick would have worked hard for our schools. I think Micky would have also. I think you are right about not knowing what they stand for, but right now if the person that wants out let them out of the school board. Mike, Patrick, or Micky wanted to be in that position. I think that is what is important. They knew the mess that they were going into and were willing to try and help us all out, no matter what. Same is for the ones that ran in Severy. Erin or Shelley would have been good.
How come I didn't get a number???
Wellll...(http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/comfort.gif) Don't you fret little feller... Maybe next time you will get a number.. :)
School board meeting was tonight. It was so good to see that so many tax paying citizens care so much about how we are spending their hard earned tax money. With turn outs like this we could have them in the janitors closet.
Just a word to anyone thinking about bitching about not wanting to pass a bond issue next November because you can't afford the tax increase.
GET OFF YOUR ASS AND COME TO THE BOARD MEETINGS.
We are down to two different firms for the design of the new elementary school. Both plans have a new gym/multipurpose room and classrooms north of the high school. Both are with their +and -. Both come in under $6 million total. The cost to build will be about 12 -15 mills. Even though this sounds like a lot of money it is very well thought out. If you spread the new expenditures across multiple years you are actually going to save money.
The bean counter figured it was only about pennies a day more. Really we are that stupid that if you convert every thing to days instead of years the numbers get smaller and we won't get as upset. Tell me how much we are currently spending on upkeep, maintenance, and inefficiency by the day. How much will the new school cost to maintain daily compared to what we are spending on the dinosaurs now.
Depending on how long of terms and the state's share which can change anytime it could be a net gain and a decrease in taxes for us at the local level. If we conserve as much as the efficiencies saw we can then we could actually lower the total amount we currently pay. We have currently maxed out our LOB at 31%. With every percentage about $30k, that means we have $900k to play with to service a $350k debt load and keep paying for teachers.
Someone show me an option of keep maintaining both grade schools, paying teachers, and then lowering the tax burden...
Remember the school is ran by the district we just pay for every thing. Some one brought up the fact that the Athletics's were not sharing in the financial pinch. We can't talk about that until we have new administration.
Just see how much they whine if we don't build the new gym big enough for the coveted extra court.
I guess if we do all the financial impact on the elementary schools then we can leave the sacred cows alone. Two or three buses to every sporting event, schedule the farthest away games all the same week, and half full busing will continue. All the lights will be on all the time. No one will have access to the buildings unless you pay to play. I think it will only cost you $50 to use the new FEMA funded multipurpose room but only if there is a staff member present to let you in the locked down school.
We are for the second year trying to get a $90k+ security system grant to provide video surveillance for the school that can be accessed by the local law enforcement. We have come to locking our kids in school(Moline) and watching them like convicts(Lansing). I know Columbine happened but come on.....I have a camera security system and with it I could see the criminals coming in, record their image, but from that point on it is pretty worthless. It would keep the extra curricular vandalism curtailed unless you think that they won't go after the cameras first. I think our money would be better served providing ground source heating and cooling. I think you might be better served to higher a janitor with a concealed carry license for $90k. Better education through fire power.
The new 09-10 bus handbook was approved. You might have to walk to school bus stops so make sure you have your shoes tied in the morning. No more curb service unless you are special, prek, or have special circumstances. Because of the millions of miles or roads our buses drive each day and the billions of semi trucks filled with rock and such tailgating them all the time I think we need to buy new buses with those huge bumpers like the state paint striping trucks have so we can actually use all the seats in the bus. They can hinge down during occupancy and up when parked.
School policy is that the last 2 seats of any bus has never been allowed to be used for students seating. We currently fill those seats with equipment and such. Why? Because if the back of the bus is rear ended they would be injured. Why would you buy such a poorly designed bus that could not take a rear impact from a collision with a 80k truck? We do not have air bags for the front of the seats for passengers but by eliminating the rear passengers you make the entire bus safer. Wouldn't the stuff in the back seats push them forward in to the next to the last seats on a rear impact?
Does that mean if you ordered 70 passenger buses and only allowed 25 students to sit in the middle of the bus they would be safer? I am really confused.
I goofed, then.
I had thought about attending but did not,
I figured the meetings would be packed until the building issue was decided.
I've attended most of the board meetings for several years, often the only public in attendance.
I haven't gone the last couple of months because people were attending, and that was great.
It seemed not necessary any more, for me to go. People were listening and paying attention.
Patrick, you speak as though a new school is a done deal? Surely the tax burden on already stressed citizens of this county should be considered? Last year our property tax went up over $350.00, homestead allowed me approximately $246.00 which leaves a hundred dollar a year rise in property tax. How can the school board justify a steep rise in an already topped out tax base to build a new school for a declining student body? We live in an aging community, many of us live on fixed income with few choices left. This house was one of those in the county that was 'resurrected' from near demolision to an asset to the community. How many folks will continue to improve their homes with such a tax burden imposed? In another thread, it has been mentioned that there will be a tax protest on Wednesday designed after the Boston Tea Party. Perhaps we should as citizens of Elk County hold our tea party on the courthouse lawn or in front of the school administration building. ::)
Pep, about the bus back seat policy....are you serious? I've never heard of such a thing! That's why buses are 3 steps up off the ground, so any impact is low, beneath the kids. We have rear enders here and the kids aren't hurt any more than any other seat on the bus. Where did that policy come from?
Not to be a sour apple, but before you get all upset about building a new building and taxes rising, you really need to talk to some one at the district office, or even someone that goes to the school board meetings and such. The way that I was told, and again I could be wrong, but our taxes might actually not go up or not much. I really don't understand the whole levy thing to tell you the truth. But the way that I was told, is that it will hold them steady, not increase them or something to that nature. I don't really know. I do know that the place we have in town here in Howard went up a bunch, too. We use one house as a rental and the other for my daycare and it was over $600.00.
But on the other hand, if taxes were to not go up, wouldn't you rather pay for a new effiecient building? I would, and also to help raise the base pay of teachers. I think that some of our veteran teachers don't make that much money and we can't attract new teachers to our area because of the base pay. I understand that these communities that this will effect has more retired people, but we also could attract more people and families to this area if we had a better school building housed in one location. It's so confusing to parents new to this area, especially in Howard. My youngest is soon to be 4, then I have a 6 year old, and a 11 year old. We are not moving from this area. My kids will probably go to college later in life, and we need different programs at the high school level to help our children stay on track for their future.
I am not trying to step on anyones toes, or upset anyone. But our kids are our future, and if I have the choice of my taxes paying for up keep on buildings, or a new building and better salaries for our teachers, I choose a new building and better salaries. This will help us all better in the long run!
SixDogsMom,
Go back and read Patrick's post. The reality is, that if a school is built for $6M or less, and the LOB is able to be reduced (to $0), then the net effect is 0. Your taxes and my taxes will not increase. May even be less. And, we would have a new school building, more efficient to operate, to boot.
Please, all, keep an open mind and be willing to listen as this unfolds. Do not assume that a new building means higher taxes.
DW
Diane, you are right in that the rear of a school bus sets above the hood of most cars, but here in the midwest wide open spaces, we have a LOT of semi's. In my experience, though, having a semi behind a school bus is much safer than most cars. Also, do you have the jacked up pickups that you need a step ladder to reach the door handle? I don't see many of those out here, but in Sedgwick County, I did.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on April 14, 2009, 11:35:50 AM
Patrick, you speak as though a new school is a done deal? Surely the tax burden on already stressed citizens of this county should be considered? Last year our property tax went up over $350.00, homestead allowed me approximately $246.00 which leaves a hundred dollar a year rise in property tax. How can the school board justify a steep rise in an already topped out tax base to build a new school for a declining student body? We live in an aging community, many of us live on fixed income with few choices left. This house was one of those in the county that was 'resurrected' from near demolition to an asset to the community. How many folks will continue to improve their homes with such a tax burden imposed? In another thread, it has been mentioned that there will be a tax protest on Wednesday designed after the Boston Tea Party. Perhaps we should as citizens of Elk County hold our tea party on the courthouse lawn or in front of the school administration building. ::)
There are only two things that are certain death and taxes.
Welcome to Elk County. When there is no growth but you still need money to make government function the taxes go up.
I am sure glad my taxes didn't go up. I will trade taxes with just about anyone. What kind of taxes to do you want to barter? Corporate, income, real estate, property, sales, use or just want to complain.
I
am speaking as if the new building is a done deal. Because I think it is the best way to spend our money. We are not making ends meet with the split campus system. It is losing money so to speak. We are spending money on salaries and maintenance that could be better served at different levels. Like foreign language, physics, and staff that doesn't spend their off time worring about their job every year. If we consolidate the grade schools we offer one campus without three principals, with out three kitchens, without three of every thing. If we don't build a new building this year when would be a good time? How old is old enough to be so expensive that you are willing to trade electric bill for mortgage? We buy natural gas, diesel, and trifecta of every thing instead of updating the education part of our school. Let the money be spent on building character and work ethic not water lines and roofing materials.
The LOB is currently maxed out because we as a district can't afford to pay our salaries, utilities, and every thing else with the state and federal dollars that we are currently getting. We have lost 25% of the student body in the last 10 years and with that 25% of the dollars that keep the doors open. If we don't lower the LOB we will not have any room for growth, emergency, or contingencies such as a broken water pipe. To survive another round of state and federal budget cuts we have maxed it out.
The tax base is shrinking as is the population.
This should have been addressed ten years ago but no one was paying attention. We wait until there is a bottom before we move. Like picking a good stock investment.
Just because we are trying to build a new school building doesn't mean that you will pay more tax. If you would look longer term you will be paying less taxes for a longer period of time. A $50,000 house would not pay $350 dollars more a year than they are already paying.
It would be more like $60.
The reason your taxes went up last year was not because we need a new building.
It might go up next year because we want better educated students.
A $50,000 house? What is that? ;D
Average value of residentual home in Elk County. $42,658.
Yes, so the number of students has been shrinking. So let's just give up on the rest of the kids in the school system now, and who will be in the school system within 6-7 years. Who cares about their education? Just as long as we're meeting our immediate needs/wants, then who cares if our future generations will have to drive to Independence to go to school. Our county is shrinking, and your kids are already out of school and have moved away... so who cares about drawing new people to the community, or keeping the ones who are already here?
It's that line of thinking that has got us into the situation we are in now.
Have some PRIDE in your community and county. Have some POSITIVE ATTITUDES that we can make this downfall turn around... heck, we already have shown proof in a very short amount of time! Don't DRIVE AWAY potential residents of the county by negativity. Have FAITH that those of us who want to change the path CAN and WILL... and just sit quietly if you don't want to be a part of it!
I quote again a very wise man from our community... "Someone paid taxes so I could go to school and get an education, so now it's time for me to pay taxes so someone else can do the same."
Believe it, Diane. Houses in Elk County are not worth an awful lot. Part of the reason tax collections aren't much. Sure we have some homes, new ones or restored ones that have a lot of money tied up in them. I have no idea how the taxes run on these, but most of the houses are older ones that haven't had the money to keep them up. We have some older houses that have been restored that are beautiful examples of by-gone times. But for the most part the houses can't be sold for as much as $50,000. If I could get $50,000 for mine, I might be tempted to sell and move in with a daughter. Nah, wouldn't be able to live with any of them.
Tobina, I totally agree with you about the negativity that I have heard from some people (no one on the forum) regarding the changes that occurred. Negative attitudes have never resulted in anything positive. I totally applaud those parents that although they weren't happy with the changes, are still keeping their children in the West Elk School District. I have even heard of some parents that live close to Grenola and still plan on staying in the system and weathering through the tough times. I feel if we stick together and work through these tough financial times, in the long run the students of W.E. will benefit far beyond our expectations.
Those with such negative and spiteful attitudes need to accept the situation for what it is and try to find a positive manner with which to work through it no matter their decision. I am sick of comments such as being so angry about the situation that they plan to send their child somewhere else and do all they can to keep a bond from passing. Such spiteful, hateful comments are only hurting the children of this district. How is it that adults can act so childish? If you want to go somewhere else, by all means go, but don't go verbally "slamming" the district, that has provided your child with a great education, to everyone you see in public.
As far as the bond issue. The citizens of Elk County need to get the correct information regarding the cost and how it would effect their taxes compared to the current tax situation. I think if everyone is presented with the complete facts that they will then be prepared to make the best decision for U.S.D 282.
Quote from: gina on April 15, 2009, 04:52:00 PM
Negative attitudes have never resulted in anything positive.
As an electrician that statement is Wrong. Negative attracts the positive. It is the positive that get off its lazy atom and attracts its self to the negative. With out the - you have no +. Cohesion will occur when all mass of equal and opposite charge combine to form a new and stable form. You can't have one with out the other.
If you are thinking about pulling your students out of WE and go somewhere else what are you teaching your kid. Mileage is more important than quality of education. That divorce is justified. That if you can't get along with someone else then it is better to go away then to save face and bit you tongue. I didn't get to go to grade school in my hometown I am extremely bitter about that......NOT......I could care less. From 5-12years old all I cared about was when the clock said 3:15 so we could ride the bus home.
The total bill for keeping the two grade schools open today might not be less than a new building. But in twenty years the new building will still only be 20 years old. Your grand kids will be attending in it.... The current buildings would be 60+ years old is that old enough to start thinking about a new plan? But the plan keeps the district financially viable for the next 20 years.
With the downsizing of the salaried staff, loss of administration, qualified staff, and the extremely positive step of having all the educational buildings within walking distance, the security and safety of our children way out way the short term problem of change. I think we are still scared of change.
I don't want to send my kids to Eureka, Sedan, Fredonia, or Burden to school. Their programs are not that great and it is too far away. If we don't make our infastructure more efficient we are going to be forced to consolidate with one of those schools. We are not the center of any of them. We would lose all three campus buildings if that happens.
So the way I look at the Bond issue is if you vote yes you are for keeping all the kids one stable family unit that gets kick ass test scores every year. If you vote no, one or the other of the grade schools is going to be closed. I think that would be the worst situation we could do. No one want that.
There is an article in todays' Parade magazine about Greensburg Kansas and the 'green' school that is being built there. The 210 students (K-12) are currently being educated in portables but the school to be built is the very latest in 'green' technology; geothermal heating/cooling, etc etc. The cost to build this school is estimated to be 49.4M (million) with the Feds picking up 29M (million), the remainder to be paid for by the local taxpayers. That is just under 20 million to be paid for by the local citizenry--- doggies, I am happy I do not live in Greensburg Kansas for more than one reason. :'( :'(
Do you think they'll get a better education because the Fed's are being so helpful
with all that $$$ money?
There's a private school about 6 or 8 miles South of GB.
Private schools don't get any GOVT money$$$....It is all private money.....Hence the name private. You don't have to teach to a standard, you don't have to have special ed, you don't have to be forthcoming with the financials.......
math grades Science History
3 4 5 6 7 8 10 4 7 10 6 8 11
WEST ELK SCORES 2008 90 100 94.1 96.8 87.5 89.7 61.5 97 87.5 88 93.1 82.8 72
Our test scores for 2008 as well as the last few years were better than Greensburg, Chapman, and way better than USD259.
259 spends more on electricity than we budget for the entire county....
What could happen if we could budget our electric bill for education? Less expenses more education. Lower taxes....With a higher result.
Perhaps Elk County ought to have a private school. Going it alone without the Fed's & state
would be better - don't you think?
Homeschooling sure has gained too. Wonder if some folks home school their kids in Elk Co?
Explain how cutting 1/3 of the budget is going to help?
That would be great. Bring in a private school. While you are at it let us bring in a manufacturing plant, a distribution center, a retail hub, and a technology center. Great idea but this is Elk county.
We can't support the tax based education as is structured right now because of lowered enrollment. How is providing another choice to pull kids out of school going to help any one? Private schools need two things. A Lot of money backing them and a lot of money for the parents of the students attending. We are not a white collared workforce. Who is going to send their economically privileged kid from some economically vibrant area to educate them in a economically depressed community? I am not seeing the draw.
I will still put our numbers up against any school. Grades are grades. Education is happening here better with less than else where with more.
Homeschooling....Really We have kids that come to school with no coats in the winter, dirty, can't name their immediate family members as they have never met, then we send food home with them for the weekend so we are sure that they eat when they are not at school and you want them to be educated at home?
Home schooling works really well if the home is smarter than the school. If you have a good teacher at either place you can create a well rounded adult. But I really think the socially repressed elk county home school-er is going to be at a disadvantage later in life. Networking, teasing, bullying, group study, differing opinions, different race.... why would you not want students exposed to as much as possible when they are six not 18. I see a long road if you don't use every step available to climb to adulthood.
I know of a family that do a great job of homeschooling. But it is not for everyone. You are so right about the ecomony factoring in on things. I don't understand why they send the food home to those kids. Most of them don't like it, and many of those families get more money a month in food stamps, then I can afford to spend on groceries.
I really think that people need to have a open mind about the possiblity of a new school. We can't work things the way they are going. And if we, the community don't do something about it then the Government WILL step in and we might not like what they tell us to do. What if we don't, let's say for example, and the government steps in, they say we have to close WE all together and send our kids other places. They could because the surrounding communites have everything all on one campus one location. We don't. That would be terrible.
People just be patience and opened minded for change. Change is always good.
Quote from: angtown3 on April 21, 2009, 06:51:26 AM
I don't understand why they send the food home to those kids. Most of them don't like it, and many of those families get more money a month in food stamps, then I can afford to spend on groceries.
Food is sent home with kids so that they get to eat. How do you know most of them don't like it? Just because a family has food stamps doesn't mean that the food stamps purchase food that the kids eat. There is a lot of research that shows that a program that sends food home with kids for the weekend makes a big difference in that child's life.
The school does not purchase the food. This food is donated and obtained through grants.
DW
How about a Charter School? Does Kansas have those? All the state provides are the teachers salaries. You raise you own money for the buildings.
Well, I shouldn't say that all the kids don't like it, but have had some given to me for daycare from some parents. I put my foot in my mouth about the food stamps, didn't think about that. You are so right about the food not going to some of the kids. Sorry.
My children are all grown and gone but here is my thought. If I had a choice to have my children in a new school verses a school that should be torn down. I would jump at the chance for them to go to a new school, not only would that increase them being proud of their school. I think it would make it a lot more comfortable to be in.
I pay taxes in Howard with having a farm and house but I knowing about LOB's and bonds it will not raise my taxes a whole lot.
Maude and Maxine.
I've never seen anyone homeschooled who was socially repressed later in life.
But, over the years, I've heard supporters of the public school system say it's so.
Of course, I never agree with them and I give them something to think about.
The homeschoolers I know are doing great and their social skills are much better
than most. Matter of fact, I'll see several tonite that are top-notch kids.
I have to agree with alot of the bloggers here, my taxes went up $350 last year for the school. For what to have 5 teachers cut and others given hefty raises? Why did we have to let go so many teachers, when we have so many more doing multiple jobs? Principles for example, that job alone is a full time job, then hes going to be responsible for superintendant duties. Mr Moore did a similar task the last several years, no wonder the school district is falling apart.
Cry Cry Cry about low enrollement, Not one person says a damn thing about Howard kids going to longton because "I dont like the teachers at west elk" or the parents saying "My kid isnt smart enough to pass west elk". Hey i know do as obama does, raise taxes on the already cash strapped people. Does anyone know how many kids that go to longton should go to west elk? I would like to know.
As for lowering the tax burden on the here is a far fetched idea no one wants to talk about, i never see this brought up.
LAND, because so few people own so much of it. Total Taxes on 160 acres is about $220.
How many acres in elk county....... 414,000 acres (647 sq mi)
Taxes on that using the estimate $569,250
Why dont we put a $1 school tax on every acre, it would give the school district $414,000 more dollars.
What about windmill money, How much is the school district going to see for that. It should lower the tax burden.
Another way we could lower our tax burden is get rid of the law enforcement, pay the state to have a couple troopers patrol the area. They arent afraid to write tickets. Whens the last time Portinier wrote a ticket for someone running a stop sign, for failure to use a child safety seat, or for my god should i say it SPEEDING. And whats the deal with him driving around on duty with his girlfriend in the car? Are we really paying him to be affectionate with his girlfriend?
A $90,000 camera system linked to local law enforcement, for what? It wouldnt even deter extracurricular vandalism, because the vandals are usually on the sports teams and can do WHATEVER THEY LIKE. The law just shrugs, oh well kids will be kids.
Lets all not forget what our King Obama says "People dont mind paying higher taxes"
Unfortunately, it sounds like since the state had to cut so much of the budget, that all this discussion may be obsolete if we have to merge with 3 other schools...
Bottom line is, that if we don't move quickly to turn the money-grubbing school issues around, then we won't have a school to bitch about. ANY schools. Forget about griping because your kid has to ride the bus 25 minutes to get to school in Severy or Moline... it will be more like an HOUR and 25 minutes to get to a school outside the county!
My opinion is, let's start from scratch and really take a hard look at every single one of the programs, activities, bus routes, teachers, paras, electricity, etc. Will paying someone a couple thousand bucks to replace lights in the gym save that much or more? Are we getting enough money from the other districts in the Special Ed coop to pay for the extra teachers we have to put on our payroll? (Hypothetical questions here... not aiming to point fingers.) Will having a centralized bus stop save buses, drivers, tires, and money enough? Do we really need a baseball team AND a track team? Is there a way to meet with other schools in the district and plan sporting events on the SAME night (high school and junior high at the same school on the same night?)
Forget "how it used to be" and let's focus on "how we can survive". This has gone from a situation that we're trying to save money and make things better, to a situation that we may not even HAVE a school in less than 5 years! Doesn't matter how much taxes you pay then, because it will go to an out-of-county school.
Also, why do those people who own land have to pay extra taxes? People who work jobs in town don't have to pay taxes on their desks, chairs, and how many pens they use in a year. And if taxes rise on land, it will get passed back to food prices, you can guarantee that. Now, a different idea would be a land tax break for those who own land and actually LIVE in Elk County.
At least you are going to help increase the population. :-*
LOL Diane.
It sounds like the problems here are almost the same kind of problems
as the rest of the government schools across the country.
I was at a church in rural Ks a few weeks ago that was meeting to
begin its private school. A gov't teacher was there and offerred a few
opinions. It looks doable for sure.
It's worth a lot to keep the gov't people out of the local school business.
Unfortunately, many do not see the value in that.
Feeling feisty today, Tobina? LOL As they say Down Under, good onya! You make an excellent argument and one that I hope will be taken into serious consideration by everyone this will affect. We either want our children to be educated in Elk County or we don't, and that's what it will come down to. And as you said, our tax dollars will go to other counties instead of staying here at home. I do wish people could put aside geographical biases and look at the cold, hard facts. Change is rarely easy, but it's often necessary if anything is going to survive.
Wait a minute, am I hearing that land owers should pay more. The people that should pay more are the people that have children in the district. As far as teacher,s, how many of you work 9 months and get payed for 12? Plus they also have all the Federal holidays off. So you can bet the first people laid off will the people at the bottom. Not that everybody does not need money, but the thought is, why keep someone that keeps the buildings clean or drives the bus. Or the Para that helps the teachers do
their work?
Now Maxine and I are really not complaining as we have children that are teachers, but the district needs to take a look at everyone. We still think the one school is the best bet. If people can not see that a new school is better the the two old run down ones. I bet they do not have children in the district or they are teachers that are worried about losing their jobs.
Maude and Maxine.
Hey Maude,
That might hit home to some people. We pay taxes on a farm and a house in town, I do not think it will hurt our taxes to much.
As I sure there are a lot of people worried about lossing their job, as the district is declining every year.
I hear a long time a go when I worked for a school district here in Topeka. That a Federal rule was that Children could only right the bus for just an hour. Any one know about that ?
Jane
How about the people who own land but don't live here? Should they have to pay for the schools? You're darned right they should. If they want to own a nice piece of Elk County, they should be willing to pay for it. Then they should make an effort to live on it and to know what is happening. I can't see that paying more taxes to help keep our schools is going to hurt me much. I qualify for homestead refund and this year I got 65% of last year's taxes back. Of course that is only on the property that you live on. It doesn't cover income property.
Quote from: Maude on April 22, 2009, 04:34:21 PM
As far as teacher,s, how many of you work 9 months and get payed for 12?
Uh...Educators are only paid for 9 months of work...They can elect to take it spread out over a 12 month period. Imagine the quality of teacher that you could attract if you did indeed pay the teacher for a full 12 months...!! Their income would finally be commensurate with their levels of education.
I think that the people who have children, and send their children to those schools should pay for those schools. I have 3 children and all 3 go to burden. That is where I want my education dollars going.
Where do you pay your taxes? If your children are going to school in a district that you don't live in, your tax money is being used to pay their tuition to that school.
I had a "school year" contract too. I had money taken out each month and put in my credit union and they automatically sent me checks during the summer.
I believe that part of Elk county is in USD205 school district unless they have changed it in the last few years.
If it is and I think that it is, then the school tax for part of Elk County would be the same as Cowley County and the taxes would go to Cowley County. Headaches for the county treasurers. I think that is the way it is. I don't know.
Why dont we take a hard look at the schools? One person said do we really need a baseball team and a track team? Do we really need 5, Yes Five Basketball teams, and thats just the boys, How about 3 football teams, Coaches are being paid for each team individually. Why cant we have just 1 or 2, several players play on several squads, because their isnt enough players, but if there wasnt enough teams, then there would have to be cuts. My god, thats not fair. what other school does that, uh, everyone.
Why do buses need to pick every kid up at their front door, whats wrong with them walking to the corner or a centralized bus stop, like bigger communities.
"Also, why do those people who own land have to pay extra taxes? People who work jobs in town don't have to pay taxes on their desks, chairs, and how many pens they use in a year. And if taxes rise on land, it will get passed back to food prices, you can guarantee that. Now, a different idea would be a land tax break for those who own land and actually LIVE in Elk County."
Can you really say $257 on 160 acres is fair, when people in the towns pay 3 or 4 times more than that for a few lots. The people that work jobs in town dont have to pay taxes on their office equipment but the business do, they have to pay property tax on everything they have. Im sure the market and restaurants have to pay personal property taxes on their coolers and such. and if taxes rise on land, it will get passed back to prices you are right, but how much of that food really stays in elk county?
Quote from: PrehistoricRez on April 23, 2009, 12:18:54 AM
Can you really say $257 on 160 acres is fair, when people in the towns pay 3 or 4 times more than that for a few lots. The people that work jobs in town dont have to pay taxes on their office equipment but the business do, they have to pay property tax on everything they have. Im sure the market and restaurants have to pay personal property taxes on their coolers and such. and if taxes rise on land, it will get passed back to prices you are right, but how much of that food really stays in elk county?
You choose to live in town and pay taxes to the town and county and state and fed. If you don't like it move. If you feel you are paying too much then quit paying. I am sure no where else in the entire nation will tax you in this way. It is only here.
Taxes are taxes....WE all must pay them. I wish we could go to a total sales tax and eliminate the property tax altogether. Then all the people that shop out of town would feel even better about their purchases knowing that they are doing their part helping other city keep their schools open.
Quote from: PrehistoricRez on April 23, 2009, 12:18:54 AM
Why dont we take a hard look at the schools?
I think the last 60+ pages of this post have addressed every posible angle of approach with school changes.
Jane; yes, you're right about the bus, but it's that they have to be allowed to stop, have a 10-15 minute break if they ride for more than an hour. Too bad that wasn't the law when I was riding the bus! The bus came between 7 and 7:15, and we got to school (usually the very last bus) right as the 8:30 bell was ringing for class to start.
Remember; taxes don't just go to schools, but to all the other things in the county; road work, maintenance, etc.
The school system like it or not is going to change in the next few years. One of two things will happen:
The bond issue will pass and we will build a central campus to eliminate the inefficiency and redundancy of three campus system.
The bond issue will fail and we will slowly lose our school system. At first the lesser important programs will stop, little things like baseball, softball, and wrestling. Then the VoAg,music, and other secondary activities will be curtailed. We won't add things like Spanish, Physics, or smart boards because we won't be able to afford them.
[/list]
The preliminary design, planning, and schedule will be done and you can compare apples to apples. Is it going to cost more to build new than to keep up three buildings? Is it going to provide more assets to actually teach kids not just house them close to home?
We have a architect with a plan for a plan. The plan is to involve the community in as much of the pre planning and design of the new building. The first stage is to decide if we want to bid the entire project to general contractors or bid the job to a construction manager. The advantages of each are subtle.
The general contractor plan: The entire project is drawn up by the architect and approved by the board then after a bond passes the bid packages are sent to general contractors for bid. The upside to this is the lowest cost is the winning bidder. The downside is that the lowest cost is the winning bidder reguardless of quality. With more and more contractors looking for work it is likely that we will get several less than desirable contractors submitting bids. To reject a low bid you have to determine without a doubt that the contractor is not qualified. The general contractor would have to build to the specs but there are 20 ways to do that.
The construction manager plan: The board interviews then hires a construction manager. The construction manager would work, with the board appointed FAC, through the workshop process of designing the building. The advantage of this is any construction questions and processes including accurate costs and availability of materials could be addressed and design changed accordingly. It could possible speed up the design process and keep construction delays to a minimum. The biggest advantage is that you get a detailed look at exactly what we are getting before it is voted on.
Wouldn't a metal builing cost less and serve just as well?
You all using any Federal money for the school?
Quote from: redcliffsw on May 02, 2009, 04:17:15 PM
Wouldn't a metal building cost less and serve just as well?
You all using any Federal money for the school?
Metal buildings, prefab, conventional brick and mortar, and precast concrete are all being looked at.
With metal buildings you have to spend more on the interior of the exterior wall than if you had a block and mortar wall. The brick exterior could still be utilized to match the existing building with a metal building.
Metal building has many advantages such as the sloping roof, although subject to hail damage, is a great roofing system. It is more expansive needing to insulate the ceilings/roof and there would be more wasted space in the attic. The problem with a sloped roof is it doesn't provide a good accessible place to install rooftop air/heat units. The ceiling and roof are one and the same so the interior walls are all non structural. The other disadvantage of metal is that the other trades have to wait for the entire building to be built before they can start.
It might be the perfect choice for the multipurpose room. It won't work for the safer room.
Brick and mortar construction allows you to install wiring, hvac, and plumbing as you build the wall.
The only Federal money available that we are aware of at this time is 75/25% matching grant for FEMA funding for the reinforcing of a Safer Room.
Please vote.
The WE school board has issued a resolution to put the bond issue on the ballot this November 3 to build a new grade school adjacent to the existing highschool.
YES!
How can you be come worldly sequestered in rural Kansas?
RE: Pep. "How can you be come worldly sequestered in rural Kansas?"
By hiding behind time worn traditions. It has never been done. We have never done it that way. It was good enough for my father, it is good enough for my children. And I have heard a lot more that don't come to mind right now.
THINK FORWARD!!!
No USDA rural development money available? Not even to underwrite the loan? Are you going to go all wireless for your computers? Just me being nosey.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on September 29, 2009, 12:19:54 PM
No USDA rural development money available? Not even to underwrite the loan? Are you going to go all wireless for your computers? Just me being nosey.
The federal dollars that we have found available have many strings attached. Such as a stimulus bill provided loan at 0% interest has a labor clause that you have to pay union prevailing wage. The bond interest is right now going to be 4.25% the increase in labor from a right to work state like Kansas to union scale is between 10-15%. So you will increase your obligation just to say that you got a 0% loan. It doesn't make sense.
The wireless thing is very promising. We have figured out that we can buy every child in the entire district a laptop computer and keep them in a base unit cart cheaper than utilizing the existing wired networks that we currently do not have enough of. Instead of building a computer lab so to speak it is cheaper in the long run to buy the computers and wire the building. There is a lot of bluetooth, broadband based tech that we don't even use yet.
As far as USDA money, we have been pursuing a water system in the county for about 5 years. Our school can't have that kind time frame.
Gotcha, thanks.
One of the things Providence Creek Charter did here to save money, and it does look kinda cool,i s they have open ceiling in a lot of areas with visible ducts and all, and all the floors are simple poured concrete with a sort of mottled pattern to the concrete. Saved about $150,000. We don't get the vicious hail storms here that you do, so I don't think you could use "drive it" walls like we did with Newark Charter.The bad economy here did help too. Providence Creek came in at about $115.00/sq.ft. The builders were hungry. Charters here don't need to use union labor either. Are you considering Geothermal? I did see the building drawings....looks good.
I think that the people that are working towards getting this bond to pass should be commended. They are putting countless hours into it. I am proud to say that I am a VOTE YES person!! I am for the new school. I think that there are way more positives than negatives to having the new grade school in Howard. Do I care if my taxes are raised? Yes I do. But the cost of the taxes are little compared to the education of my girls. I want what is best for my children and if it means a few dollars more in taxes so be it!! :laugh:
At both open house, the committee for the "VOTE YES" were there to answer questions, give out information, and even had a wonderful movie to show people. I think that all these members are doing a great job!!
So in November when it's time to vote, I hope that you go to the polls with an open mind and think about the future of our children in this community, not just the worry of the money it might cost. What's a few dollars when are childrens future are at stake!!!
Quote from: pepelect on September 29, 2009, 04:45:36 PM
Quote from: Diane Amberg on September 29, 2009, 12:19:54 PM
No USDA rural development money available? Not even to underwrite the loan? Are you going to go all wireless for your computers? Just me being nosey.
The federal dollars that we have found available have many strings attached. Such as a stimulus bill provided loan at 0% interest has a labor clause that you have to pay union prevailing wage. The bond interest is right now going to be 4.25% the increase in labor from a right to work state like Kansas to union scale is between 10-15%. So you will increase your obligation just to say that you got a 0% loan. It doesn't make sense.
The wireless thing is very promising. We have figured out that we can buy every child in the entire district a laptop computer and keep them in a base unit cart cheaper than utilizing the existing wired networks that we currently do not have enough of. Instead of building a computer lab so to speak it is cheaper in the long run to buy the computers and wire the building. There is a lot of bluetooth, broadband based tech that we don't even use yet.
As far as USDA money, we have been pursuing a water system in the county for about 5 years. Our school can't have that kind time frame.
I sure hope yall don't make the mistake of using apple computers for your laptops that your talking about. The business world uses Intel based computers not apples. Also if your going wirelesss, you are going to need NIS servers stationed around to balance the load. YOu can't just throw everyone on one computer server or nothing will work as it will bottleneck especially when you end up with lots of video intensive apps. The other thing your going to have to address is the limitations of wireless speedwise vs wired. Currently with wired you can get 1gb bandwidth, wireless comes nowhere near that speed. You'll need at least 368kbs for video to run across the network and thats slow.
Are yall going to allow the students to carry the laptops home? If so, buying a insurance plan to cover all the laptops is going to be necessary and then you can go with laptops that are designed to withstand kids. Their a bit more expensive but worth it for the investment.
The lapper can also go with the kid from grade to grade.
You can eliminate books by utilizing software disks that are downloaded onto the laptops. That will produce a massive savings every year and make it healthier for the kids to not have to carry a ton of books everywhere.
I know some of these answers! :D
QuoteI sure hope yall don't make the mistake of using apple computers for your laptops that your talking about. The business world uses Intel based computers not apples. Also if your going wirelesss, you are going to need NIS servers stationed around to balance the load. YOu can't just throw everyone on one computer server or nothing will work as it will bottleneck especially when you end up with lots of video intensive apps. The other thing your going to have to address is the limitations of wireless speedwise vs wired. Currently with wired you can get 1gb bandwidth, wireless comes nowhere near that speed. You'll need at least 368kbs for video to run across the network and thats slow.
Are yall going to allow the students to carry the laptops home? If so, buying a insurance plan to cover all the laptops is going to be necessary and then you can go with laptops that are designed to withstand kids. Their a bit more expensive but worth it for the investment.
The lapper can also go with the kid from grade to grade.
You can eliminate books by utilizing software disks that are downloaded onto the laptops. That will produce a massive savings every year and make it healthier for the kids to not have to carry a ton of books everywhere.
The computers bought so far have NOT been Apples.
The students will NOT take the laptops home - at least not under the current plan. The laptops are for classroom access and use.
Software textbooks are being looked into. No decision has been made yet.
Quote from: srkruzich on September 30, 2009, 01:33:57 PM
I sure hope yall don't make the mistake of using apple computers for your laptops that your talking about. The business world uses Intel based computers not apples. Also if your going wirelesss, you are going to need NIS servers stationed around to balance the load. YOu can't just throw everyone on one computer server or nothing will work as it will bottleneck especially when you end up with lots of video intensive apps. The other thing your going to have to address is the limitations of wireless speedwise vs wired. Currently with wired you can get 1gb bandwidth, wireless comes nowhere near that speed. You'll need at least 368kbs for video to run across the network and thats slow.
Are yall going to allow the students to carry the laptops home? If so, buying a insurance plan to cover all the laptops is going to be necessary and then you can go with laptops that are designed to withstand kids. Their a bit more expensive but worth it for the investment.
The lapper can also go with the kid from grade to grade.
You can eliminate books by utilizing software disks that are downloaded onto the laptops. That will produce a massive savings every year and make it healthier for the kids to not have to carry a ton of books everywhere.
The only apples currently outside the lunchroom are in the art department. They are much better than pc's in that area. The current plan would have laptop carts in the classrooms. None of this is board policy just speculation and outside assessments.
Quote from: pepelect on September 30, 2009, 03:24:37 PM
The only apples currently outside the lunchroom are in the art department. They are much better than pc's in that area. The current plan would have laptop carts in the classrooms. None of this is board policy just speculation and outside assessments.
YEs that is true apples are a graphic computer. So art would be better off with a apple. I've done this before and it is a excellent way to go but you have to make sure that you have the right equipment to serve the laptops. IF you don't, your system will crash and burn. One major thing that you don't want someone to do is come in and sell you a total microsoft solution either. Windows can't handle the loads put on it and you'll be spending more time fighting virus's and hackers than you will anything else. Set up a rock solid server solution and you won't spend a fortune in maintaining the servers.
I agree completely.
I really think this needs to be done with a new building or not.
It seems that the technology would be more cost effective in the long run than to buy the books. I know even when we attended there was not enough English books for both classes of students to take one home so the book had to stay in the room. The only problem I would have with that is lit is very hard to teach on a computer. There is something about the tactile feel of a book while you are reading that you don't get reading on a screen. But most curriculum would work just peachy.
Quote from: pepelect on September 30, 2009, 04:06:12 PM
I agree completely.
I really think this needs to be done with a new building or not.
It seems that the technology would be more cost effective in the long run than to buy the books. I know even when we attended there was not enough English books for both classes of students to take one home so the book had to stay in the room. The only problem I would have with that is lit is very hard to teach on a computer. There is something about the tactile feel of a book while you are reading that you don't get reading on a screen. But most curriculum would work just peachy.
That makes sense. I myself read more on computer than i do any books, partly because of my eyesight. The plan i submitted to several schools when i did a proposal to go digital was that every student from 1st grade to 12th grade got a laptop. Each student carried it with them and 1st graders used the same lapper til they went to middle school, middle school til high school and highschool all the way to graduation.
The highschoolers got the laptop upon graduation to take to college with them as a reward for sticking with it and graduating. The justification for the cost was that the laptop was beyond its useful years for a school but still good enough to start a college kid off.
The software was stored on central computers operating in the school, and the kids would download the image onto their hard drives and mounted as a disk on their computer to access. Its a VM technology that takes a disk image and turns it into a virtual drive.
Anway i projected the costs for the school system and found that by doing this, plus the cost of the software and licenses, they bought it all lock stock n barrel plus a maintenance contract for the first year in the initial purchase for 1/4 less than what it would have cost them to buy books, provide lockers, and all that stuff. They could eliminate lockers in all of the school and reclaim wasted space too in the school without all the lockers and bookshelves needed to store books. It was also one less thing to worry about for security.
Then there was a maint contract for the servers and i even submitted a administration contract to run the things for them so that no one at the school had to fool with it or hire a perm admin.
It also provided a redundent system to back up the servers in case of failure so that the school lessons were not interrupted.
I'll tell ya what you need to have if you do this is someone who is a expert at enterprise solutions to get that off the ground and keep it maintained. There is a whole world of possibilities with a system like that.
Steve; sounds like if they don't have someone already in the schools who can take care of this stuff, they now know who to go to! :)
If you home schooled and feel that you need an IEP, do you write it your self just to spend more time with your self concentrating on the issues that you have or do you just write it to get more funding for yourself?
I would state in mine that long first class plane rides to tropical places would help achieve greater insight on the world and how the different ecosystems affect both plants and animals which would help me to relate to the other humans that I coexist with but can't stand in the central states fauna.
Quote from: pepelect on October 01, 2009, 07:26:33 PM
If you home schooled and feel that you need an IEP, do you write it your self just to spend more time with your self concentrating on the issues that you have or do you just write it to get more funding for yourself?
I have done that. I wrote it myself and no i didn't get funding. The funding was out of my pocket.
But you know, homeschooling IMO is much more effective than the Government education out there. But thats just my opinion. I learned and am still learning that every single day everything in that day is a lesson. For a good example, when i work with the beehives, i can stop and show a youngster things about that hive. One thing is carpentry. in building the hive you can involve math, even physics to some degree explaining how things work, then in the hive you can explain biology and entemology, things like that. Walking through a field you can show herbs, weeds, things like that.
The whole world is a classroom.
If we spent half the time that we have been hashing out the details of the school situation on something productive like actually teaching our kids we would have 347 Einsteins loose in the area. I would not call it unproductive but at times it seems that if you had a million dollars and were going to give in to 100 charities you would get 1million reasons not to do it and 1million requests for more money.
If you are driving along a get a flat tire you would stop and for about ten bucks you would fix it right? You would not keep airing it up for two or three more years thinking that as long as it holds air while I am driving it will be fine. You stop taking long trips because you don't trust that the tire will make the trip. You start carrying a can of fix a flat just in case. You can drive on a tire that in not property inflated but it is not safe. You take that chance and keep filling the tire with air knowing full well that the tire is shot and needs replaced. You get a couple more miles out of it and wham. You are hit by a truck broadside and total the vehicle. Thank goodness you didn't spend the ten bucks to get the tire fixed.
We need to fix our school issue. It has a slow leak. It has been draining us for thirty years. It is time to change the tire. Before something comes along and destroys the entire institution.
Great analogy. Or the one I like is "pay me now or pay me later." The Powers That Be from yesteryear chose not to pay, and now it's later. And a lot more expensive.
If you can't come up with a viable alternative then the only recourse is to go negative.
I love how the debate has turned from denying the facts, ignoring the history, and inability to grasp common mathematics to straight up raw emotion and sentiment. If this was a national election we would next pull the race card. I will not do that because I am not sure which race would be the minority. The human race would lose...not loose...hands down.
We are not talking about putting a man on the moon. It is very simple. We are broke. We do not have enough money to keep three buildings open. Our current bond and interest mill levy is 0.00 mills. Which means as a district we have no debt. We have maxed out the LOB just to maintain our current financial position. Our budget is shrinking every year. There is a decrease in enrollment from about 1998 to current. With every year with less enrollment means a smaller budget to work with. We need to become more efficient with our very valuable current dollars and assume that they will be less of them in the future.
We need to down size. We need to save more money by spending less every year for the foreseeable future. We can do this a number of ways. One is to cut programs. Teach less things to a smaller number of students for less money. Eliminate extracurricular activities expenses to the point where they are self supporting. Just teach the basics. No frills. No college prep. No fluff. Bare bones meat and potatoes kind of school that will last about six months.
What we have currently chosen to do is to eliminate duplicate teaching positions, reconfigure our elementary model, and plan for a consolidated campus.
The advantages are few other than the building are already paid for, remodeled, paid for again, remodeled, paid for again, and still need major improvements. Neither building is big enough for our current 200+ student load. Neither have adequate physical fitness, auditorium, or music rooms that won't need many dollars worth of remodeling.
We have teachers bouncing from one elementary school to the other to teach. We still have three buildings, three lunch rooms, and three sets of utilities. The maintenance issues are on the back burner. There are no program expansion plans in place and no viable funding for the long term. The current model will not work. It has too much waste and redundancy.
What is wrong with looking to the future with an open mind? With one campus you have gained centralized schooling. With centralized campus you have centralized busing. The buses only go to school in the morning and home in the afternoon. Unlike current cramped conditions elementary students will be taught in large open well lit classrooms. They will utilize high efficient HVAC units for their comfort and protection from natures wrath with improved hardened security. No mold, no asbestos, low VOC paints are just the beginning. Better lighting has been proven to produce better academic achievement. Money that is spent currently on high utilities, maintenance, and dueling identical buildings could be better utilized. Lower test scores are achieved by not challenging students. Not all students are scholars. Some need the discipline of athletics, the camaraderie of FFA, FCCLA, Scoot, or other yet to be dreamed up programs to challenge them to be better citizens. The more opportunity that is available to the student the more broad the horizon becomes after high school. A lot of student athletes get their foot in the door at college on athletic scholarships. We can have more college prep courses designed in line with the future college. We can offer more vo-tech courses in cooperation with area vocational technical schools to challenge the technically oriented. Accounting and business courses backed up by the decade long proud history of WE mathematics could produce the next Rhodes Scholar.
How can you deny our kids the opportunity that they deserve? If we consolidate the elementary program into one building we can use the academic windfall to improve the entire district. It is critical that they are getting the best education possible.
It is my understanding that Longton elementary school is at risk of being closed by the state even though they have a 'new' elementary school building. It is also my understanding that the same fate may fall to WE no matter if they have a new building or not. If student population drops, the district may very well lose their schools. In my estimation it is foolish to incur eight million dollars plus of debt to build a building. It only makes sense to bite the bullet and close one or the other elementary, and combine the two. I do believe that fifth and sixth grade classes were conducted in the highschool building last year. If neither of the elementary buildings will hold all the students, then part of them should be housed in the highschool building. It doesn't make any difference to school attendance which building is closed; some will be lost from either community no matter what is done. Even if a new building is built, there will be some backlash as far as attendance is concerned.
It makes no sense to me to use every bit of the reserve funds for portables at the Howard site either. According to the most recently hired superintendant, there are 360,000 dollars in the fund that is in reserve for repairs and building expense. And the highschool has to have buckets under the leaks when it rains? Hello? I have to wonder just how far the cute t-shirts might have gone to improve that roof. Where did the money come from to buy those? And why isn't there an 'action' group to protect what the taxpayer has already bitten the 'bullet' to provide education to the youngsters of this district.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 22, 2009, 07:41:20 PM
It is my understanding that Longton elementary school is at risk of being closed by the state even though they have a 'new' elementary school building. It is also my understanding that the same fate may fall to WE no matter if they have a new building or not. If student population drops, the district may very well lose their schools. In my estimation it is foolish to incur eight million dollars plus of debt to build a building. It only makes sense to bite the bullet and close one or the other elementary, and combine the two. I do believe that fifth and sixth grade classes were conducted in the highschool building last year. If neither of the elementary buildings will hold all the students, then part of them should be housed in the highschool building. It doesn't make any difference to school attendance which building is closed; some will be lost from either community no matter what is done. Even if a new building is built, there will be some backlash as far as attendance is concerned.
It makes no sense to me to use every bit of the reserve funds for portables at the Howard site either. According to the most recently hired superintendant, there are 360,000 dollars in the fund that is in reserve for repairs and building expense. And the highschool has to have buckets under the leaks when it rains? Hello? I have to wonder just how far the cute t-shirts might have gone to improve that roof. Where did the money come from to buy those? And why isn't there an 'action' group to protect what the taxpayer has already bitten the 'bullet' to provide education to the youngsters of this district.
The highschool roof is leaking? Then why is anyone considering building any new buildings when the "ONLY HIGHSCHOOL" is not being maintained?
Where did all the money go for maintainance?
Regarding the cute t-shirt remark:
In accordance to state law, the public information committee supporting the USD 282 bond election does not use district funds (i.e. tax payer dollars) in its efforts. Promotional materials, handouts, flyers, advertising, etc. have all been paid for by donations from patrons and groups of our community.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 22, 2009, 07:41:20 PMI do believe that fifth and sixth grade classes were conducted in the highschool building last year.
Edie,
Last school years arrangement had only the sixth grade at the high school. The number of students allowed for one sixth grade class at the HS/Jr HS. There were two fifth grade classes, one at Moline Elementary and one at Severy Elementary.
David
Last I looked we don't live in Longton, have no control over what they do with their school, don't get or have to pay taxes on their bond, and have no plans otherwise. It is my understanding that the same fate to one district doesn't not predict the fate of ours. I agree with you on one point. It only makes sense to bite the bullet and close one and then the other elementary building later that same day. I also agree that students will be lost from either community no matter what is done. But we will lose the entire district if nothing is done. That is what you want. You want to lose the entire district. Then you will be paying taxes on Sedan, Burden, Eureka, or Fredonia's new school bond issue. None of theses schools are big enough to handle all of our kids. So they will have to build a new bigger building to teach them. Do you think 5.5 mill will cover the added diesel to deliver the kids the hour and a half to school each way?
The most recently hired superintendant has a name. I have met him one time and he is a pretty decent guy. Mr Reece did not create this problem, we did. Would you trade places with him and deal with the issues that come from such a momumental task?
There have been no temporary housing units purchased. The only way they would be an option is if the voting citizens choose not to fix the school permanently. The roof leak is a constant problem with this age of building and is a problem that is being addressed. All three buildings roofs are showing their age but currently the high school has the worse problems. But if the entire roof needs replaced how will we pay for that? How much double staff and two salaries equal one roof? For how many years are you willing to make that trade? For the past ten years we have not been able to put enough money into repairs. THe money was spent on dueling gradeschools. The time to address this issue is now and the list is mounting up of dollars bandaiding the grade schools that could have paid for over half the cost of a new one.
If we use the reserve funds now we then have no reserve funds.
I am still open for a plan that leaves the buildings open and saves enough money to do so. Closing one does nothing but close one building. Closing one doesn't save enough money in the long term. The amount of repair and age of the buildings will still come back to cost us more money in the future. You have to look more than two years into the future. A new building will be an asset to the area. In fifteen years a new building will cost nothing except maintenance. Fifteen years of manitenance on the Moline and Severy buildings will cost two million dollars more than the price of the new building and the children will gain nothing.
A band aid is just a band aid. Why would we want to just cover up a problem? Why not fix the issue?
Ok, so you mentioned portables. I heard, and just asking, if the bond doesn't pass is option b to purchase portables to move all the classes to Howard? Ok, if that is the case, why not just build a building with some of that money? I am with you PEP. To me its just a band aid. Why not fix the problem. I understand some of your points, but to me the biggest problem that people are having is understanding that we don't have the money. Our district is broke. Am I right?
I am also understanding that many people are having a hard time with the tax part of the deal. Ok, will are taxes have to be raised if we go with option b? If this is the case why would you want to purchase portable buildings versus a new building that is safer and will with stand more weather?
I understand to that many are having a problem with the dropping enrollement, right? Believe it or not, many of us choice to stay here in Howard or surrounding communities. I will not bus my children anywhere else, even if state does step in. Which I don't think that they will they might, but we are just to far to bus are children anywhere. I can't imagine they would think that parents would put their children on a bus to ride for over an hour to go to school. I won't that is the bottom line. But if we don't fix the problems that the district has now, they will. They want to see that the state money is going to a good school, that understands that they can't keep running like we have been doing.
To me the bottom line is, like PEP stated, we can't just put a band aid over the problem anymore. If we do what the state wants and build a new school, I don't think they will close the district down. That is my opinion.
VOTE YES!!!!
Citizens are suggesting repairs to existing elementary schools as an option. The only money we have for repairs is what the district has been able to set aside over the years and it equals $650,000. Currently that money is on hold waiting to see what happens with the election - if the bond passes then that money will be used to make the roof and metal sheeting repairs to the high school. IF THE BOND fails then the board has looked at using that money to make the existing high school campus the CENTRALIZED campus - through some sort of temporary classrooms. With school finance, if we need 1.5 million dollars to do repairs on one of the elementary school, the only way we can get that money is through the Local Option Budget (LOB). Our current financial situation doesn't allow for us to raise that extra money because we have maxed out the LOB - we cannot raise it anymore. The money we currently raise with taxpayer money pays for the operating cost of the district. The only way for taxes EVER to go down is with a yes vote. Both Longton and Sedan are post bond years, and have decreased their LOB. With a no vote, you are guaranteed to keep the school taxes high and most likely see decrease in programs - like Vo Ag, Arts, Music, Woods, Home Ec (Facs), Spanish, Business - all important aspects of a well rounded education - especially for students that may choose to go straight from high school into a career.
Doesn't the roof need to be repaired regardless? A fund drive for roof repair?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on October 23, 2009, 11:29:24 AM
Doesn't the roof need to be repaired regardless? A fund drive for roof repair?
LOL you would think so. I'm still not comprehending anyone allowing the schools to go to hell to begin with.
I agree with you, Steve.
One more thing, we were told that if Longton district is closed, we will be assuming their tax debt for their bond issue. Should we pass our own bond issue, and the state closes Longton, we will be paying for both bonds. Also, if the state then closes our district, we will be paying both issues, and paying into a third district as well.
you know the other thing that hasn't been mentioned is how their going to fix the mismanagement of money. If they get a new building, whats to stop them from saying ohh we can't afford to fix the roof cause football or band or any of the NON essential programs for a education might be cut.
I don't see building a new building when we're not keeping up the ones we've got. Can't keep raising taxes to build a new building every time the other one falls apart because it wasn't kept up.
You are not seeing the point. They are not "mismanaging" the money. The extra money for this maintanance is not there because it is being split between 3 facilities which is why this bond issue needs to pass so we can afford to keep the maintenance up. This is why the bond has been brought before the public. The school district needs our help!
QuoteIf they get a new building, whats to stop them from saying ohh we can't afford to fix the roof cause football or band or any of the NON essential programs for a education might be cut.
If you want to raise a student's intellect, study skills and grades, one of the easiest ways to do so is to involve them in music.
http://www.amc-music.com/musicmaking/play@school/grades.htm which says "
Music and Grades - Music won't rot your mind. In fact, it's good for you. And studying music may help you to learn other subjects better and get better grades in all your courses."
http://www.winknews.com/features/education/36198994.html which says "New research links music to increased brain power."
http://www.howcast.com/videos/115266-How-To-Raise-Your-Kids-Grades which says "
Step 5: Play classical music - Turn on some classical music while they do homework. In one study, people who took tests in rooms with Mozart playing scored higher than those who took their exams in silence."
Now, back to the topic:
I think there has been no major mismanagement of money. I don't remember the report, but sometime within the last couple of years, our district was lauded for how well they
managed money.
Quote from: srkruzich on October 23, 2009, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: Diane Amberg on October 23, 2009, 11:29:24 AM
Doesn't the roof need to be repaired regardless? A fund drive for roof repair?
LOL you would think so. I'm still not comprehending anyone allowing the schools to go to hell to begin with.
The school buildings have not gone to hell. The high school is now 30+ years old. What building of that age does not need some maintenance? The elementary buildings have had large amounts of money spent on them for upkeep and maintenance.
Angie, don't you think saying you will not bus your children at all is a little cold considering you are asking everyone else in the district to do just that.
I think there is a difference in busing the entire district as we have done for the last thirty years and busing the entire district to another district because of a closed system.
And where may I ask is the guarantee that this district will not be combined with another? There is none and you know it. We are very subject to being absorbed into another district when enrollment drops. That is the truth and you know it.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 23, 2009, 06:53:27 PM
And where may I ask is the guarantee that this district will not be combined with another? There is none and you know it. We are very subject to being absorbed into another district when enrollment drops. That is the truth and you know it.
If that happens you still get stuck with multimillion dollar loan to pay.
Quote from: perkinscreekranch on October 23, 2009, 02:49:27 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on October 23, 2009, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: Diane Amberg on October 23, 2009, 11:29:24 AM
Doesn't the roof need to be repaired regardless? A fund drive for roof repair?
LOL you would think so. I'm still not comprehending anyone allowing the schools to go to hell to begin with.
The school buildings have not gone to hell. The high school is now 30+ years old. What building of that age does not need some maintenance? The elementary buildings have had large amounts of money spent on them for upkeep and maintenance.
I think someone said that maintenance went out the door because they had to choose between programs or maintenance.
Quote from: Mom70x7 on October 23, 2009, 02:34:40 PM
QuoteIf they get a new building, whats to stop them from saying ohh we can't afford to fix the roof cause football or band or any of the NON essential programs for a education might be cut.
If you want to raise a student's intellect, study skills and grades, one of the easiest ways to do so is to involve them in music.
http://www.amc-music.com/musicmaking/play@school/grades.htm which says "Music and Grades - Music won't rot your mind. In fact, it's good for you. And studying music may help you to learn other subjects better and get better grades in all your courses."
http://www.winknews.com/features/education/36198994.html which says "New research links music to increased brain power."
http://www.howcast.com/videos/115266-How-To-Raise-Your-Kids-Grades which says "Step 5: Play classical music - Turn on some classical music while they do homework. In one study, people who took tests in rooms with Mozart playing scored higher than those who took their exams in silence."
Now, back to the topic:
I think there has been no major mismanagement of money. I don't remember the report, but sometime within the last couple of years, our district was lauded for how well they managed money.
But you don't sacrifice the maintenance of a school to pay for it.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 23, 2009, 06:53:27 PM
And where may I ask is the guarantee that this district will not be combined with another? There is none and you know it. We are very subject to being absorbed into another district when enrollment drops. That is the truth and you know it.
zzzzz If you want a guarantee then buy a toaster. Life only gives us two guarantees death and taxes. That is the truth and I know it. We are no more subject to being absorbed today than we were yesterday. We will not be a better candidate tomorrow with a new building.
Where may I ask is the guarantee that the state won't bypass Moline with highway 160? Where is the guarantee that the rail service through the county won't stop tomorrow? Where is the guarantee that fuel won't go to $6 a gallon.
We can not save enough money by keeping things the same. I know it would be easier but that is what cards we are dealt. WE will come out of this process a much stronger school system with the full backing of the community. You just have to choose if you are part of the solution or not.
Quote from: Sarah on October 23, 2009, 12:18:54 PM
you know the other thing that hasn't been mentioned is how their going to fix the mismanagement of money. If they get a new building, whats to stop them from saying ohh we can't afford to fix the roof cause football or band or any of the NON essential programs for a education might be cut.
There is no they... There is a WE. We have the ability to fix problems that come up. We have the knowledge to inform and the wisdom to listen while being informed. We are not locked into one ridge plan that has no flexibility. We will get it done. because WE BELIEVE>
OK, something I want to know, just how much are they thinking this is going to raise property tax per year?
The way I understand it the only people that will be taxed are the ranchers, business owners, land owners and anyone else that owns something. So if you rent or are retired you will pay nothing, am I right in thinking this way?????
Jane
Quote from: Jane on October 24, 2009, 08:09:43 AM
The way I understand it the only people that will be taxed are the ranchers, business owners, land owners and anyone else that owns something. So if you rent or are retired you will pay nothing, am I right in thinking this way?????
Jane
Uhmm most folks that are retired own land, homes, cars, ect
Your property tax will increase 17.5mills. It doesn't matter how many times you ask the same questions the answers will always be the same. If the tax isn't already paying towards usd282 on the bottom of the tax statement then it won't in the future tax statement. The bond doesn't affect your car sales taxes. As there has never been a school district tax on personal property tax on rented property there still isn't one for the bond issue.
In other words the same people that have been paying for the school for the last thirty years are still going to finance the school for the next thirty.
Option c is to have a big bake sale. I say option c but c is for cookies and you get more money from pies so it should be option P. If you price pies at $10 a piece you would only have to sell 555,000 of them the first year. Then you are done. But if that didn't fullfill the goal then you would have to sell 37,000 a year plus an additional interest of 23,587.5 each of the next 15 years.(this is a linear compounding of interest in the real world the amortization schedule would dictate the annual principal and interest payment amounts )
MOLINE ELEM - WEST ELK USD 282
Elk County
416 N Plumb
PO Box 306
Moline, KS 67353-0306
CURRENT STATUS: Open
BUILDING #: 2444
BUILDING TYPE: Elementary
YEAR BUILT: 1952 DATE OPENED: 08/01/1952
SEVERY ELEM - WEST ELK USD 282
Elk County
203 S Severy
PO Box 187
Severy, KS 67137-0187
CURRENT STATUS: Open
BUILDING #: 2448
BUILDING TYPE: Elementary
YEAR BUILT: 1956 DATE OPENED: 08/01/1956
Jane, I am retired, I own property (real estate) and I fully expect to pay my share of whatever it takes to keep our school in Elk County. My brother owns property in Elk County and he might complain about the taxes, but it is his choice to own this property and along with ownership comes responsibilities. Besides I will remind him of the choice we made a long time ago in going to a smaller school that is no longer there because the community couldn't afford to keep it.
And what is the mil levy tax in Elk county? Like $23 a mil? Is that right? So, it would raise it about $390 some odd dollars? Is that right?
Again, I will stay out of whether you should vote yes or no.
But ad valorem taxes are composed of both Real Estate Taxes and Personal Property Taxes.
When you buy a car tag in Elk County, you certainly do pay property taxes on it, and a portion of it is distributed to the specific school district where you live.
I would like to add this about renting. If you rent, you have a landlord who pays taxes on the property that you rent. When the landlords' taxes go up, then your rent will likely do the same.
Property tax, millage tax, or ad valorem tax relies upon the fair market value of the property being taxed. The property tax rate is often given as a percentage. It may also be expressed as per mill, which is also known as a millage rate or mill levy.
Property taxes are imposed by the state, counties, cities, and all other taxing entities that levy ad valorem tax and/or special assessments. The millage rate is usually determined by county commissioners, city council members, and school board members, respectively. The taxes fund budgets for schools, police, fire stations, hospitals, trash or waste collection, sewers, roads and sidewalk maintenance, parks, libraries, and miscellaneous expenditures.
Property tax applies to both real and personal property. Real and Personal property are subject to the same levy rate. The characteristic that distinguishes real property and personal property is mobility. Some real property examples include; land, structures, improvements to land, and certain equipment affixed to land or structures. Some personal property examples include; automobiles, aircraft, watercraft, mobile homes, trailers, heavy trucks, commercial machinery and office equipment.
Non-ad valorem, non-mill levy or special assessments may often be confused with ad valorem property tax. Special assessment relies upon a special enhancement called a "benefit" for its justification.
By state law, the County Treasurer is responsible for the billing, collection and distribution of taxes based on the tax roll received.
The mill levy is applied to the appraised value of your property. The appraised value of your home is multiplied by an assessment percentage of 11.5% to find the assessed value. This assessed value is again multiplied by your mill levy and the product is divided by 1000 to get the amount of property tax you owe in Kansas.
Excellent, MakeMeTurn!
I have just left the West Elk website, and am a little astounded to find there is a complete section designed for promotion of this bond issue that used West Elk students and school equipment. This is disturbing to me, as I feel students are being taught the wrong thing; that is, where the money and influence lies, there goes public funds. I am currently searching for a
figure on the number of households in USD 282, as that figure times the 44 cents mailing expense required per household adds up to a hefty sum in my estimation. I am speaking of the glossy mailing campaign for the bond issue that is labled as coming from USD 282. At 1000 (My guess) households, that means half a thousand of my tax dollars used and does not include the production, or the printing on professional glossy paper. It also does not include the employee time spent producing address labels, the cost of labels, ink, and employee time to mail all these. This is beginning to stink IMHO!
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 25, 2009, 07:10:46 PM
I have just left the West Elk website, and am a little astounded to find there is a complete section designed for promotion of this bond issue that used West Elk students and school equipment. This is disturbing to me, as I feel students are being taught the wrong thing; that is, where the money and influence lies, there goes public funds. I am currently searching for a Subject:
Message icon: Standard Thumb Up Thumb Down Exclamation point Question mark Lamp Smiley Angry Cheesy Grin Sad Wink
Change Color Black Red Yellow Pink Green Orange Purple Blue Beige Brown Teal Navy Maroon Lime Green
figure on the number of households in USD 282, as that figure times the 44 cents mailing expense required per household adds up to a hefty sum in my estimation. I am speaking of the glossy mailing campaign for the bond issue that is labled as coming from USD 282. At 1000 (My guess) households, that means half a thousand of my tax dollars used and does not include the production, or the printing on professional glossy paper. It also does not include the employee time spent producing address labels, the cost of labels, ink, and employee time to mail all these. This is beginning to stink IMHO!
Did you notice the postmark? It was mailed 4 days AFTER the deadline to register to vote.
There's a place on that site (West Elk) for leaving a comment. Did you?
There's a Pros and Cons along with a What If It Fails.
The school and school board can provide information about the bond, and have a duty to do so. I think that's what this is.
I was happy that they sent out a flyer, but was a bit miffed that they sent it out only 4 days before voting and yet put at the top, "The last day to register to vote in the election is October 19, 2009" and it was postmarked 3 days after that. That's not right. Plus not giving people enough time to research the facts. Plus on the West Elk website, "they're unbiased pros and cons" needed some work as there were paragraphs after the pros but only two small lines after the cons that doesn't give people enough information to make informed decisions. A lot of people in this county are not on the board and don't know about all this except through hearsay or the flyer. It would have been better to send out ALL the information, the good, the bad, the ugly, either at the end of Sept, or the first of Oct. but I guess that's neither here nor there now.
I did visit all sections of the site, Mom, I did not leave a comment, but may do so later. There were two cons listed on that section, and endless 'pros'. It was obviously a preconcieved project, and perhaps not in the best interest of ALL of the constituents of the West Elk school district. There were many dollars spent on this effort without the approval of All or even a majority of West Elk constituents. West Elk property has been used in the promotion of this project, not just the computer labs, but the football fields and the West Elk Highschool for a promotional film by the architectural firm. There have been West Elk employees used, and even though they too have a stake in this project, it is less than savory to use employees for this promotion. There is always the implication of less than fair play in hiring when employees are used in this manner. I must say I not only resent that but must question that it may be borderline illegal. My tax money should not be used to promote more taxation!
IMHO it is the duty of the school board to inform us, the public, of the particulars of the upcoming election and who better to do it than the people who work for us and are paid with our tax dollars. And how should it be paid for if not by the district that is asking for a yes vote? If anyone worked on it and wasn't paid for it, isn't that volunteer work? I will bet if any students worked on it, that they enjoyed doing it. Besides, isn't it their future that is at stake? What they are learning from this is something that they can use in their futures.
IMHO there is nothing stinky about this. IMHO every effort to inform the public of the problem and the proposed solution is being done. IMHO everyone who is interested has had plenty of time to register and that this mailing has been sent only to registered voters.
If you have not voted before this date thing could be an issue. The letters were sent out to every person who the district has an address for weeks ago. I received mine one with a postmark of October 1. I know for a fact that they ordered a thousand, sent out over 750 with current school contacts, sent out more to the voters from the last election and had to order even more from the printer.
I know I have only been registered here for 22 years so I wouldn't have any need to know when the date to do so was passed.
It is a statement of what the bond issue is about. The school put out the mailed flyer. They can tell you to go vote but not lead you one way or the other.ut, where the building will be constructed and what it will cost.
Quote from: srkruzich on October 25, 2009, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 25, 2009, 07:10:46 PM
I have just left the West Elk website, and am a little astounded to find there is a complete section designed for promotion of this bond issue that used West Elk students and school equipment. This is disturbing to me, as I feel students are being taught the wrong thing; that is, where the money and influence lies, there goes public funds. I am currently searching for a Subject:
Message icon: Standard Thumb Up Thumb Down Exclamation point Question mark Lamp Smiley Angry Cheesy Grin Sad Wink
Change Color Black Red Yellow Pink Green Orange Purple Blue Beige Brown Teal Navy Maroon Lime Green
figure on the number of households in USD 282, as that figure times the 44 cents mailing expense required per household adds up to a hefty sum in my estimation. I am speaking of the glossy mailing campaign for the bond issue that is labled as coming from USD 282. At 1000 (My guess) households, that means half a thousand of my tax dollars used and does not include the production, or the printing on professional glossy paper. It also does not include the employee time spent producing address labels, the cost of labels, ink, and employee time to mail all these. This is beginning to stink IMHO!
Would you rather have one sent by me with my bias on the issue or the school with no bias?Did you notice the postmark? It was mailed 4 days AFTER the deadline to register to vote.
The students designed the website themselves. It is a class. It by no way is a campaign. I had no idea that you wanted to shield our children from the opportunities that web design and associated media would teach them. I guess we should get the slates back out.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 25, 2009, 08:12:14 PM
I did visit all sections of the site, Mom, I did not leave a comment, but may do so later. There were two cons listed on that section, and endless 'pros'. It was obviously a preconcieved project, and perhaps not in the best interest of ALL of the constituents of the West Elk school district. There were many dollars spent on this effort without the approval of All or even a majority of West Elk constituents. West Elk property has been used in the promotion of this project, not just the computer labs, but the football fields and the West Elk Highschool for a promotional film by the architectural firm. There have been West Elk employees used, and even though they too have a stake in this project, it is less than savory to use employees for this promotion. There is always the implication of less than fair play in hiring when employees are used in this manner. I must say I not only resent that but must question that it may be borderline illegal. My tax money should not be used to promote more taxation!
So in the future at the book burning that we will have down at the local library because I don't approve of what books are on the shelf can I quote you as to the legality of the activity? The architectural firm is hired by the district to design the building. They asked members of the community at one of several community wide events held to voice opinions about the building and its design and construction. I am sure if you were in attendance you could have voiced your concerns on camera for the video. But you weren't there were you. You showed no interest. The employees are taxpayers and some with kids in the school system. The fact that they actually live in the distict and have gainful employment should be commended not riduculed.
What did the football field ever do to you?
I've had enough! I can't sit back and listen to the negativity anymore. Do you have a child or grandchild in the WE schools system? Did you go through our local school system? Do you even care about the education of the children in this community? Or are you so selfish that all you can think about how this is going to effect you personally. Someone paid for the school you went to.
If you don't like the website and mailings then complain to your school board member. Don't come on here and complain to the vote yes people you have volunteered their time and used donated money to get the information out to everyone. They have had meetings in every town, if you have unanswered questions it nobody's fault but your own.
1000 (your guess) mailings @ .44 cents = $440 not a "hefty sum". If it cost the district $440 to get the proper information out to the public then it was money well spent. Other wise they might be listening to you spew negativity all over and not know the facts so they can make a decision of their own.
I hate it that this decision has to be made, it would be nice to have a growing enrollment and 3 campus' well maintained and paid for, all the while supplying a great education to the local youth. But it is not the case. We have 2 old inefficient buildings and not enough money coming in to keep operating like we are. We have choices, one choice we don't have is to do nothing. Take all emotion out of the decision and look @ it as a business and its a no brainer. Our school needs to be ran like a business. Things aren't going well then cut cost and overhead, re-organize, become more efficient and do everything in your power to make it work. If you can honestly look @ the situation and think the bond is bad then vote no, it's your right. But don't complain when the schools are closed in favor of something else. Something the public don't have a vote on.
If you want our towns to stay alive then support our school. Most of all the business in our community is run by people that went through our school systems. The school building don't make the community the people who come from the school does. Think about it. Moline: Murphys Oil, Mills Feed, Double-C, Swinging Bridge Cafe, Q-Mart. Howard: Batson's, Cookson's, Lanning's, Harrods. All of these are examples business that are owned/run by people that went our schools system. Very rarely does someone with no ties come to our community start or run a business here. You don't want your town to die? Then take care of the students, take care of our own, prepare them for their future. OUR FUTURE.
Quote from: patriotdad on October 26, 2009, 12:34:50 PM
I've had enough! I can't sit back and listen to the negativity anymore. Do you have a child or grandchild in the WE schools system? Did you go through our local school system? Do you even care about the education of the children in this community? Or are you so selfish that all you can think about how this is going to effect you personally. Someone paid for the school you went to.
Isn't it wonderful that we have freedom of speech? :)
My parents paid for all the schools I went to as I went to private schools my whole life, and selfish? My responsibility to the community is second to my responsibility to my family. Family and our survival always comes first. Well actually, God first, family second, friends and neighbors third, community last. When one of those lower on the list comes into conflict with one of the ones higher on the list, then it ceases to be a concern.
But, just FYI, I am glad they took the time to send out the flyers.
Very well said, PatriotDad!
And this isn't the first time a community was divided over a bond issue. There's been many in many communities and there will be many more. Everyone will vote their conscience and move on. And then what will we have to talk about on here? :P
QuoteVery rarely does someone with no ties come to our community start or run a business here. You don't want your town to die? Then take care of the students, take care of our own, prepare them for their future. OUR FUTURE.
I been stayin out of this since we no longer live, (have lots of relatives, some with kids in school there) but Patriotdad has a point...specially the part I quoted.
Quote from: pamsback on October 26, 2009, 01:06:18 PM
QuoteVery rarely does someone with no ties come to our community start or run a business here. You don't want your town to die? Then take care of the students, take care of our own, prepare them for their future. OUR FUTURE.
I been stayin out of this since we no longer live, (have lots of relatives, some with kids in school there) but Patriotdad has a point...specially the part I quoted.
But what happens to Moline and Severy when the school closes down? Then will those towns die? I have not seen the school in Moline, but the one in Severy is very nice and probably brings something to the families that live there.
A big major problem about businesses and jobs in the county is that there are no resources to support businesses. First of all is water. Second is if you suck everyones disposable income up in taxes, then they won't have the disposable income to support cooksons, toots, poplars, batsons and other companies.
Last of all if you do get industry here, where are you going to get the labor force on down the road if the schools keep declining in numbers. All of those things are what a industry or business takes into acccount before they locate in a area.
What happens to these local businesses when their owners get up in years and retires or dies. And the reality of it is, most of the kids here will move off to wichita or other cities where opportunity lies. They only start looking back to where they come from when they get older and miss the simpler life they lived in their hectic stress filled lives.
Personally i love the isolation. I was thinking last night, theres nothing open for 50 miles around here. Not even a 7/11. But to kids that's anathema.
If you look at the businesses here in Howard, you will find that they are owned by kids that went to school here, went away for awhile, then returned here to make their living and raise their families. And not all of them moved into their father's business. As for the courthouse, the Unified District, how many of those employees left Elk County, then returned? There is a reason that Elk Countians return to Elk County. There is something here that you can't find anywhere else, that makes you want to raise your children here, that makes them want to come back. Maybe it isn't the school, but I think the school has a lot to do with it. We can't be sure that we can keep the school here, but we can give it a try and give our children a school home that they can be proud of.
When you approach a town and see new construction, especially schools or churches, what impression do you have of that town? Do you see it as a place to pass on by or do you see it as a place that is looking to the future? A new school house may not bring new citizens, but it does present the town as a progressive place in which to raise your children. New schools, new churches, progressive citizens.
And what 'town' might that be Wilma?
Howard. The Flinthills Assembly of God is working to build a new church right beside the high school.
We have thriving business along 99 highway and a nice business district and two banks on Wabash Avenue plus - the Elk County courthouse.
AND the business are owned by "young people". The majority is owned by the ones that grew up in Elk County -
I firmly believe Howard-Elk County is up and running!! Pessimism never won the battle -- Optimism and fortitude is
what wins.
So, true Jo!!!
I forgot to mention the effect on the surrounding towns. Many people are used to their kids being bussed to school. They are not going to by-pass the rest of the county to settle in Howard. They need only to look at Moline, Elk Falls, Grenola, Severy, to realize that this area is a good place and if their children can be bussed to a top notch school, they are not going to turn down these small towns as potential homes.
As to employment, my husband worked at Beech Aircraft in Wichita all the years that we lived in Severy. We felt it was better for him to travel to work than to raise our kids where he was working.
Quote from: patriotdad on October 26, 2009, 12:34:50 PM
I've had enough! I can't sit back and listen to the negativity anymore. Do you have a child or grandchild in the WE schools system? Did you go through our local school system? Do you even care about the education of the children in this community? Or are you so selfish that all you can think about how this is going to effect you personally. Someone paid for the school you went to.
Mr PD, I wasn't going to respond to this, however I want to remind you that this is still the United States, and the constitution guarantees me the right of free speech. This is a public forum, and this thread was started two years ago, not dedicated to the new gradeschool supporters, as you are thinking. It was in fact started as a response to the changes made by Mr. Moore. If I seem to be negative, perhaps I am on this subject. I can see no sense in spending 8 million dollars on a building when we already have two brick and mortar buildings, especially with a shrinking population and a shrinking student body. These are not the conditions under which MY parents built a new school building; a new building got built when the student population outgrew the current facility. And usually not even then, but was added onto as an expansion. (The key word here is expansion). This is not personal, but an expression of common sense. We have no guarantees that the state will not close our district even with a 'new ' gradeschool, we have no guarantees that the state will pay the 29%, or that Fema will pick up the saferoom cost as projected. Think about it! This is pie in the sky!
Edie, at what point does the enrollment become low enough for it to make sense (to you) to combine the two grade schools into one?
Using your logic, there wouldn't be a school building in Elk County newer than one hundred years old; that's how long the population, and thusly enrollment, has been decreasing.
If I own two cars that are 15 years old that each have 300,000 miles on them, I'm not going to put $3000 cash into each of them to get me through the next year or two. I'm going to borrow $18,000 at low interest and get a new car!
Quote from: flintauqua on October 27, 2009, 07:45:16 PM
Edie, at what point does the enrollment become low enough for it to make sense (to you) to combine the two grade schools into one?
Using your logic, there wouldn't be a school building in Elk County newer than one hundred years old; that's how long the population, and thusly enrollment, has been decreasing.
If I own two cars that are 15 years old that each have 300,000 miles on them, I'm not going to put $3000 cash into each of them to get me through the next year or two. I'm going to borrow $18,000 at low interest and get a new car!
Uhmm comparing cars to buildings is like apples to oranges. I went to school in a 120 year old building in 2006. Ga Military college building is 170 years old, and survived the burning of atlanta by sherman.
Were the buildings you refer to redundant?
You know exactly the point I was making and it holds water:
At what point does the cost of repairs, renovations, extra utilities, extra staff, etc to maintain two redundant buildings become high enough to warrant construction on one new building?
In my opinion, that time occurred at least 20 years ago in this situation.
Quote from: flintauqua on October 27, 2009, 07:57:31 PM
Were the buildings you refer to redundant?
What do you mean? no they weren't redundant. They are very necessary. They don't have enough room as it is for classes and are constantly building because of Enrollment increase.
QuoteYou know exactly the point I was making and it holds water:
Not really flint. 300k mile car, i have one. STill drive it, will drive it another 10 -15 maybe even 20 years. But cars are not buildings. I remember the big push lately about refurbishing the elementary school in Howard. Remember that? Oh the great things that could be done with it. What happened? Why the change in thought process. Heck why not refurbish the building in howard. I think ole pep had it figured out a while back and wouldn't it cost less to do that?
Quote from: srkruzich on October 27, 2009, 07:49:34 PM
Uhmm comparing cars to buildings is like apples to oranges. I went to school in a 120 year old building in 2006. Ga Military college building is 170 years old, and survived the burning of atlanta by sherman.
Established in 1879 in Milledgeville, Georgia Military College (abbreviated as GMC) now includes a liberal arts junior college, a high school, and a middle school. GMC's focus is on a junior college military science program that culminates at the end of two years of study and training with contracted cadets being commissioned as officers in the U.S. Army. GMC is one of five military junior colleges that participates in the Army's Early Commissioning Program.
It (GMC)had a $34.8 million fiscal year in 2008.
Maybe the building was abandoned by the previous owners and became a college in 1879.
So not only is your math a little sketchy but the simple fact that a tax funded institution like GMC that spends 10 times as much tax money as West Elk is funny. You talk the talk about self-sufficiency and getting off the government tit and the junior college you reference is this huge tax entity... I bet they spend more on maintenance than we do for the entire year of public funded education. It uses Georgia state funds to educate out of state students. Only 5% of the attendees are even from GA. I guess if we trained the U.S. Army we could spend local tax dollars for out of state education. To educate 100% KS students we can't use any tax money because of what? Your prepencity to complain about the tax burden.
We don't and have not owned the old grade school building in Howard for twenty years. For the school board to use it would be illegal. Can we build a school on your property? It would cost way more than $5.55million and would not accomplish the one campus goal. The site is too small and it is multiple story. The fire marshall hates two story schools for elementary. A school a mile a way is just as wasteful as two eighteen miles apart.
Topic Summary
Posted on: Today at 09:26:09 PM Posted by: srkruzich
Insert Quote
Quote from: flintauqua on Today at 08:57:31 PM
Were the buildings you refer to redundant?
What do you mean? no they weren't redundant. They are very necessary. They don't have enough room as it is for classes and are constantly building because of Enrollment increase.
You know redundant. Two buildings doing the exact same thing. Twins..
Good luck to all in your school district whatever the outcome of your election. As for those of us in Piedmont that seem to be so worried about it, why? It isn't our school district or our tax dollars. I believe that West Elk will be getting 4 students added to your enrollment next week.
Quote from: ADP on October 27, 2009, 09:03:15 PM
Maybe the building was abandoned by the previous owners and became a college in 1879.
Not abandoned, at all. It was the Dahlonega Mint, where they minted gold coins for the US and the Confederacy.
But the point is its around 170 years old. Buildings do last a long long time and can be used far longer than 30 or 40 years and can be used quite effectively. Maint costs on the buildings there are low. They keep up their buildings.
I still haven't figured out why any school district would put off maintenance of their existing buildings. You take care of your assets otherwise you dont' have them and can't preform the jobs that their designed to do.
Sixdogsmom, I think there are regulations regarding adding to the high school. They have looked at that option and if I am right, it won't work, or cost more or something. I could be wrong, but to have the school up to code, it won't work. I think they have looked at all the options, and this is the only one that will work and make true sense. Yes, our student body is shrinking, but there will always be children here to attend. We are rural communities in this area. I for one have three young ones, and know I will be here in Howard for the rest of my life, or at least to see them get through grade school, and high school. I won't move unless, well, unless the hubby kicks me out. And I am pretty sure that isn't going to happen.
My thing is that people are so stuck in there own ways, or what it used to be like that they don't get it. I for one have attended grade school through high school in the West Elk district and so has my husband. I went away for college, years ago, and made my own decision to settle here in Howard. I own a daycare, which services the surrounding communities. I have children that I care for from Severy, Moline, and Howard. I have watched kids that are from other communities in Elk county and Greenwood county, too. Times are tough on me, too. I have to sets of bills, as I don't run the daycare out of my house. I have a morage payment, a van payment, plus regular month to month bills to pay, which includes to sets. My husband is also self employed. So we don't have health care, at this moment. But I have other types of insurances that I pay, which is a big chunk of change. I am currently looking into selling Avon to help over come the losses that I am occuring. So, if I can add a few bucks to for taxes to help my community, I for one am going to do it. I know that you on the other hand are living on Social Secruity. I understand that is not much, but I do know that some people living on it make more money than I or my husband do.
I just wish more people would have an open mind.
I got caught up in the addition and forgot to add this post.
Quote from: srkruzich on October 27, 2009, 10:47:20 PM
Not abandoned, at all. It was the Dahlonega Mint, where they minted gold coins for the US and the Confederacy.
But the point is its around 170 years old. Buildings do last a long long time and can be used far longer than 30 or 40 years and can be used quite effectively. Maint costs on the buildings there are low. They keep up their buildings.
I still haven't figured out why any school district would put off maintenance of their existing buildings. You take care of your assets otherwise you dont' have them and can't preform the jobs that their designed to do.
try again.
Dahlonega Mint: When the American Civil War broke out in 1861, the Dahlonega Mint was seized by the Confederates. It is believed that after the Confederates took over the mint in 1861, that some gold dollars and half eagles were minted under the authority of the Confederate States Government. The exact number of 1861 D Gold dollars produced is unknown, while approximately 1597 1861 D half eagles were struck. Because of their relatively low mintage, all Dahlonega-minted gold coins are rare. It is generally accepted that Gold coins estimated to exceed $6 million were minted here.
The building that housed the Dahlonega Mint was destroyed by fire in 1878. It was never rebuilt and the mint ceased production permanently.
Your point is noted, but I can only assume that you aren't wrong just talk about the wrong building... maybe you forgot. The other point I would like to make is that this building was something built by tax dollars, closed by war, retooled for another purpose, closed by fire, retooled for a purpose of ashes. But lets assume you are right. The education that goes on in the existing building didn't start out to be its primary purpose. Times change. There used to be a school house every six miles. The population density is different now.
Instead of using our limited resources for maintenance we have been keeping two parallel programs going. We didn't forgo the repairs because it was a better choice, we did it to appease the community. They thought it was more important to educate the students.
I can lone you these Encyclopedia Britanicas since I read them once I don't use them any more.
Quote from: ADP on October 28, 2009, 10:22:27 AM
try again.
Dahlonega Mint: When the American Civil War broke out in 1861, the Dahlonega Mint was seized by the Confederates. It is believed that after the Confederates took over the mint in 1861, that some gold dollars and half eagles were minted under the authority of the Confederate States Government. The exact number of 1861 D Gold dollars produced is unknown, while approximately 1597 1861 D half eagles were struck. Because of their relatively low mintage, all Dahlonega-minted gold coins are rare. It is generally accepted that Gold coins estimated to exceed $6 million were minted here. The building that housed the Dahlonega Mint was destroyed by fire in 1878. It was never rebuilt and the mint ceased production permanently.
Try again, the building is standing right on south main street. Wasn't destroyed. I have worked in the building as well as taken my classes in the building. The original oak wood planks for the flooring is still being used in bottom level.
This is the Dahlonega Mint.
(http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/media_content/m-4318.jpg)
Your point is noted, but I can only assume that you aren't wrong just talk about the wrong building... maybe you forgot. The other point I would like to make is that this building was something built by tax dollars, closed by war, retooled for another purpose, closed by fire, retooled for a purpose of ashes. But lets assume you are right. The education that goes on in the existing building didn't start out to be its primary purpose. Times change. There used to be a school house every six miles. The population density is different now.
Instead of using our limited resources for maintenance we have been keeping two parallel programs going. We didn't forgo the repairs because it was a better choice, we did it to appease the community. They thought it was more important to educate the students.
I can lone you these Encyclopedia Britanicas since I read them once I don't use them any more.
[/quote]
It has changed then. Probably after it burned down.
Quote from: ADP on October 28, 2009, 10:22:27 AM
I can lone you these Encyclopedia Britanicas since I read them once I don't use them any more.
Lone Me?? I don't think i need any help in being alone you know.
But as far as your assertation that the Dahlonega Mint is no longer in existance, that is not the case as I have walked in its halls myself :)
Also found a 1938 two half eagle and a 1854 3 dollar coin from beneath the basement floorboards of the Dahlonega mint/Price building.
Their sitting in the Gold museum on the square in the old courthouse.
Quote from: ADP on October 28, 2009, 10:54:39 AM
It has changed then. Probably after it burned down.
the roof design changed and it has gone through additions. They just got through uhmm restoring the brick. The bottom floor wasn't burned, the top floor was and was rebuilt and they added the dome on top when it was rebuilt in 187?
Based solely on the picture you produced the roofing alone is more than $5.5million dollars. It has been replaced since 1837. I really like the old structures. But that is not this thread.
The point was that we need to change the priorities of the district. Build a sound building with a sound fluid system of education. If our needs change our facilities must change to meet the need. Just as this fine building has had many modifications over the years so should our school buildings.
Quote from: ADP on October 28, 2009, 11:06:12 AM
Based solely on the picture you produced the roofing alone is more than $5.5million dollars. It has been replaced since 1837. I really like the old structures. But that is not this thread.
ROTFL it ought to be worth more than 5.5. Its gold
So is the capitol dome of Georgia. All the gold comes from the mines there.
QuoteThe point was that we need to change the priorities of the district. Build a sound building with a sound fluid system of education. If our needs change our facilities must change to meet the need. Just as this fine building has had many modifications over the years so should our school buildings.
True. First priority if you do get the building, is to keep the Maintenance money off limits period. Keep up the asset first. Otherwise, education won't matter cause you won't have the resources to provide it.
Pep, tell me again exactly what is wrong with the Moline school? I understand that it 'might' need a third of a roof, (that was declared okay by the adjuster a few years back when we had the big hailstorm). We need some electrical outlets? You want an auditorium when we already have a multi-purpose room., (and it does have a stage).Oh yeah, it's not in Howard. Combine lunchrooms? Lay off employees? Will one lunchroom serve all district students at one time without having to increase personnel? Besides fixing breakfast? You are going to have the kindergarteners eat with the highschoolers, right?
Using the over forty years old guideline for a building, we should probably demolish the entire town of Howard, Moline, Severy, Elk Falls, and Grenola as most buildings in those towns are over forty years old. Probably inefficient, every one of them. Of course most of us have updated like this old house that is well over 100 years old. Most of us installed new wiring, efficient heating/cooling, storm windows and insulation. We paint, sweep and replace broken things as needed. I would consider a bond issue to repair both gradeschools, but I have a feeling that this was never a consideration.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 28, 2009, 12:58:04 PM
Pep, tell me again exactly what is wrong with the Moline school? I understand that it 'might' need a third of a roof, (that was declared okay by the adjuster a few years back when we had the big hailstorm). We need some electrical outlets? You want an auditorium when we already have a multi-purpose room., (and it does have a stage).Oh yeah, it's not in Howard. Combine lunchrooms? Lay off employees? Will one lunchroom serve all district students at one time without having to increase personnel? Besides fixing breakfast? You are going to have the kindergarteners eat with the highschoolers, right?
Using the over forty years old guideline for a building, we should probably demolish the entire town of Howard, Moline, Severy, Elk Falls, and Grenola as most buildings in those towns are over forty years old. Probably inefficient, every one of them. Of course most of us have updated like this old house that is well over 100 years old. Most of us installed new wiring, efficient heating/cooling, storm windows and insulation. We paint, sweep and replace broken things as needed. I would consider a bond issue to repair both gradeschools, but I have a feeling that this was never a consideration.
I'm staying out of the school debate, but I did want to comment that sometimes older buildings are actually more efficient than newer. My mom and dads house which is over 100 years old is far more energy efficient with it's plaster walls than ours is which is newer.
PEP, please tell me this, are there guidelines when you update a school? I think that I heard that from one of the meetings. Didn't they look at that? Am I wrong?
No there are no guidelines you have to meet. You can meet in a tent along side a river. The safety of the students is never a concern when designing a school. Come on....What do you think?
Why is one campus such a foreign concept. If it is such a bad concept then why did almost every surrounding district start doing it years ago. Every other surrounding district that has a lower LOB than us started by centralizing their campus. Elk Valley, Chautauqua county, Central, Cedar Vale, Eureka. All the students would be at the same location. It creates opportunities that we can't not accomplish cheaply when our students are so many miles apart. It cuts expenses.
There is nothing wrong with Moline Grade School or Severy Grade School that can not be fixed. There is something wrong with the entire district. We have too many buildings and not enough students. We have two choices. Bring in more students or downsize the building number. I am all for shutting down the high school and moving every thing to one of the two other campus. It would cost ten times more than what is proposed. Are you willing to foot the bill for that?
Lay off of employees would be the same as what we did last year. We could not afford to pay them.
One lunchroom will serve all district students. The students will eat just like they eat at any other school. Breakfast and lunch are currently served at all three lunchrooms. Seniors don't necessarily eat with the seventh graders now do they?
Yes the multipurpose room has a stage but you can not seat enough people in the multipurpose part of the room to view the stage at one time. It physically is not big enough for 200+ students, 200+ sets of parents, and chairs for them to view. Lets say they all crammed in there. The problem would be if there ever was a fire. You could not egress that many people from the current configuration. Solution don't have all school assemblies. Have two or more programs for every event.
We have over two hundred grade school kids now. The current buildings are not big enough for all elementary students to be in the same building.
Sarah you are right about older homes being more efficient than new ones but you have to qualify that by saying if you build the new house as cheap as you can. There are many more ways now to build more efficient than any other time in history. We have all the experience of the past to improve the new. We are proposing building a new building not to increase square footage of the district but to decrease it. If you would put the emotional attachment to the building aside you would see that it is better for the district with a centralized campus than the current arrangement. We are not building just to be building. The space needed is bigger than what is available at Severy and bigger than the space available at Moline but smaller than the two combined.
We did look at expanding either of the grade schools. But we are trying to improve the entire district not just two buildings.
If we keep the grade schools split and don't build a central campus our LOB will remain maxed out for the foreseeable future. I am not talking about 15 years like with building a central school. I am talking until we quit using the existing buildings. Every year they are going to need thousands of dollars of repair because of their age and type of construction. The roof is just part of MGS buildings ills. The SGS issues are just as numerous water line, gym ceiling and heating, gas rate,...
The LOB was raised 4 mil. No matter if the bond issue passes or fails the LOB will stay maxed out as long as we keep our current configuration. Only with a decrease in expenses can you lower the tax burden.
I would agree to leaving both campus as they stand if someone can show me enough savings to lower or eliminate the LOB with out a bond issue. I have looked for years and I can't find it.
Let me clarify myself, if we add on to the high school in Howard are there guidelines that make it these fesible then building the new building. That's what I meant to say. I am on board for the new school!! I am a vote YES!! Just trying to justify why it makes the most sense!!!
Yes. If we build on an addition attached to the rest of the building such as building a grade school on the south side of the gym where the existing voag/woods/art is currently we would be increasing the total square footage of the the entire building. If we have over a certain number of students in this public space we have to install fire suppression equipment. If we get over a certain square footage then the state fire code requires sprinklers in the entire building. This is why you notice on the plan for the elementary school it is not on an adjacent wall but 20 feet away with fire doors between. This negates the square footage and starts counting again. Also if we build against an existing wall we would have to go back into that existing space and make it a fire wall. There also has to be consideration for egress of the occupants of the building. If any existing fire door is modified than the entire emergency egress plan has to be reevaluated. All current building and fire codes would have to be applied to the entire building if we modified it with an attached addition. The same would be true if we built on to either of the grade schools.
The lower grades must be on the lower floors. The prek and k both have to have readily accessible bathrooms and at least two egress doors.
That is where a lot of the expense comes into play when you talk about remodeling existing structures for use as new grade schools or even high schools and try to convert them to grade.
Thank you, Patrick. Your last two posts have been very informing, and presented in a very succinct and easy to read manner. I guess you did learn something from Gugler and Jennings after all.
I wish others would think about all the work that has gone into the decision to consolidate to one new grade school, rather than continue to operate three seperate school campuses.
Economics, both locally and at the state level, and basic logic come down on the side of one new grade school, at the site of the high school.
Emotion and sentimentality are the basis of most arguments against this plan.
Emotion and sentimentality should play a role, and have throughout the decision making process. But at the end of the day, they will not pay the bill that has come due.
You can either apply the logic and economics locally by approving this plan, or you can wait until the state legislature decides to enforce their logic and economics upon the area.
How much attention do you think the legislature is going to give to local emotion and sentiments?
Charles
You are correct Charles, emotion, sentimentality or a new building will make absolutely no difference to the state. And if the state says it is time to consolidate, if we still owe on this building that we don't really need, we will still have to pay for it. Even if the state combines the Longton district with this one, we would be liable for not only this bond, but would assume the current bond that Longton is paying for. I am still certain that one or two grades (it has been done before), can be put into the highschool building if in fact all the gradeschool will not fit into one building. There are many middle schools that have grades six through nine, and highschool ten through twelve. If one or two portables are needed, then include those. Should the area suddenly finds itself in a growth cycle, then present the new school idea again. I might be more agreeable. And yes, Angie, I can certainly see that you would be all for the new school in Howard since your daycare is just a short distance from there. I do have to wonder if it were to be in another town, if you would be so 'all on board?'
Edie,
When consolidation occurs, it won't be West Elk and Elk Valley merging. It will be every district in Elk and Chautauqua Counties, all but one in Greenwood, two in eastern Cowley, two in Eastern Butler, and one in southern Lyon ceasing to exist, with the area involved being attached to one of the following: Ark City, Winfield, Augusta, Eldorado, Eureka, Emporia, Fredonia and Caney (if Eureka, Fredonia and Caney survive).
It's not going to be pretty, and it's not going to be piece-meal. The legislature is tired of this hanging over their heads, and when they do it, they're going to make sure they don't have to come back 5-10 years later and do it again!
And when they're done with schools, they will turn their attention to consolidating the 105 counties into about 35.
It will happen! I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.
Charles
Quote from: flintauqua on October 28, 2009, 06:44:28 PM
Edie,
When consolidation occurs, it won't be West Elk and Elk Valley merging. It will be every district in Elk and Chautauqua Counties, all but one in Greenwood, two in eastern Cowley, two in Eastern Butler, and one in southern Lyon ceasing to exist, with the area involved being attached to one of the following: Ark City, Winfield, Augusta, Eldorado, Eureka, Emporia, Fredonia and Caney (if Eureka, Fredonia and Caney survive).
It's not going to be pretty, and it's not going to be piece-meal. The legislature is tired of this hanging over their heads, and when they do it, they're going to make sure they don't have to come back 5-10 years later and do it again!
And when they're done with schools, they will turn their attention to consolidating the 105 counties into about 35.
It will happen! I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
Charles
I'm wondering, even if Elk builds a new grade school, if they're thinking about consolidating that many school districts, unless they all do something radical too, then the state is still going to consolidate regardless of Howards new school don't you think? I mean, they're not sitting there thinking, "Well, if Elk county does something, we won't do anything". They're probably looking at all the school districts as a whole would they not?
So in the mean time we are suppose to continue spending as much as possible to ensure that the state knows that we are as ill equiped to deal with school finance as they are? I can't see the rapid deployment of Kansas department of education coming up with a viable plan in the foreseeable future. I can't wait 30 more years for someone to close my school district before I do something about our kids education. If you want to be all big brother and consolidation sky is falling then look at their track record. We can't even build a transmission line without 20 years of study. You can't force another casino to build on the Vegas strip but the state is still looking at them as the savior of the mid west.
If the state consolidates the entire region. The new school district will assume the debt of all those districts from which it was created. It works the same in the region model as the Elk Valley model you are so quick to throw about. The entity that gets the students gets the tax funding and has to pay for the infrastructure. It would level out the tax burden from all individual districts and every one would pay the same. You would have one district and several schools. Busing would be longer no matter which of the larger surrounding schools gets our kids.
If this happens you are going to see the oldest and the smallest buildings discarded first. The newest, best equipped, and largest will be utilized across the entire region.
Quote from: ADP on October 28, 2009, 07:17:57 PM
So in the mean time we are suppose to continue spending as much as possible to ensure that the state knows that we are as ill equiped to deal with school finance as they are? I can't see the rapid deployment of Kansas department of education coming up with a viable plan in the foreseeable future. I can't wait 30 more years for someone to close my school district before I do something about our kids education. If you want to be all big brother and consolidation sky is falling then look at their track record. We can't even build a transmission line without 20 years of study. You can't force another casino to build on the Vegas strip but the state is still looking at them as the savior of the mid west.
If the state consolidates the entire region. The new school district will assume the debt of all those districts from which it was created. It works the same in the region model as the Elk Valley model you are so quick to throw about. The entity that gets the students gets the tax funding and has to pay for the infrastructure. It would level out the tax burden from all individual districts and every one would pay the same. You would have one district and several schools. Busing would be longer no matter which of the larger surrounding schools gets our kids.
If this happens you are going to see the oldest and the smallest buildings discarded first. The newest, best equipped, and largest will be utilized across the entire region.
Well thanks, but my point was that the over all attitude is that this consolidation of buildings will put a halt to the state coming in and doing it. I can't count the number of posts I've seen that have stated that building the new building will keep Elk county schools in Elk county, which in all actuality, isn't necessarily true if the state is looking at all the school districts as a whole rather than individually. So, I was wondering if that's true. I didn't realize so many school districts were on the chopping block and seems, unless all the school districts can do something, it's inevitable anyway, unless something major happens.
Getting down to the nitty gritty, what is the primary reason the county is wanting to do this?
Is it because the two elementary schools are falling apart and are old and the county feels it would be better to replace them?
Is it because they want the convenience of having all the buildings in one spot to lower costs which really doesn't as the costs just changes hands from the county to the tax payers?
Is it because they're trying to keep the state from coming in and consolidating to another district?
Is it to try and prove that Howard is a growing community?
Is it because the students need a new building as they're outgrowing the one they've got?
What's the base reason for this. And don't tell me all of the above because there had to be a major concern that brought all this up.
The reason we are doing this because the district can't keep paying its bills at this level of expenses.
You either lower your costs, increase your revenue, or close the doors.
We can't seem to attract enough students to increase revenue.
So we have two choices lower the costs or close the doors.
I don't think anyone wants to close the doors.
Quote from: ADP on October 28, 2009, 07:41:35 PM
The reason we are doing this because the district can't keep paying its bills at this level of expenses.
You either lower your costs, increase your revenue, or close the doors.
We can't seem to attract enough students to increase revenue.
So we have two choices lower the costs or close the doors.
I don't think anyone wants to close the doors.
OK Thanks
I think that a teacher said in a meeting a couple of years ago that she had seen the long range plans for the state and that this district was destined to become part of a district based in Eureka. Rural education has become more expensive as populations shrink and migrate to the larger cities and towns. The state is going to go for more bang for the buck, and of course the largest constituency. I suspect that federal money goes where the denser population is for the same reason, and that it is easier to satisfy federal guidelines when there are more taxpayers to sweeten the pot. We need to prepare for that time, as it is coming.
BTW, I certainly never advocated 'building onto' the highschool. There was room enough for nearly 500 students in that building in the early 90s' and I am not quite certain why 345 could not fit there now? A classroom is a classrom, is a classroom. It needs to be warm in the winter, have a window for spring and fall, and a floor and ceiling. Desks are optional. The world is a classroom, and the LIBRARY is a window to this world. The library should be used extensively! We have people here who cannot make a comprehensive sentence and claim to be college graduates. Computers are not the answer folks, they are a tool only. Give a basic education in the arts, sciences and literature with a little philosophy and critical thinking thrown in and you have it made. Math is a great start, for it is the language of science and music. Without it, those subjects have no value. But math is a meter only and must be combined with other subjects for an educated student. The rest is bangles and beads.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 28, 2009, 07:51:17 PM
I think that a teacher said in a meeting a couple of years ago that she had seen the long range plans for the state and that this district was destined to become part of a district based in Eureka. Rural education has become more expensive as populations shrink and migrate to the larger cities and towns. The state is going to go for more bang for the buck, and of course the largest constituency. I suspect that federal money goes where the denser population is for the same reason, and that it is easier to satisfy federal guidelines when there are more taxpayers to sweeten the pot. We need to prepare for that time, as it is coming.
BTW, I certainly never advocated 'building onto' the highschool. There was room enough for nearly 500 students in that building in the early 90s' and I am not quite certain why 345 could not fit there now? A classroom is a classrom, is a classroom. It needs to be warm in the winter, have a window for spring and fall, and a floor and ceiling. Desks are optional. The world is a classroom, and the LIBRARY is a window to this world. The library should be used extensively! We have people here who cannot make a comprehensive sentence and claim to be college graduates. Computers are not the answer folks, they are a tool only. Give a basic education in the arts, sciences and literature with a little philosophy and critical thinking thrown in and you have it made. Math is a great start, for it is the language of science and music. Without it, those subjects have no value. But math is a meter only and must be combined with other subjects for an educated student. The rest is bangles and beads.
I actually agree on a lot. A lot of the things we think we need, aren't really necessary.
Are there only 345 students in all of the Elk County district? Or only in the highschool? What is the total student count of the Elk county schools?
Sarah,
The county has absolutely nothing to do with this. The Elk County government has absolutely no control over the school district whatsoever.
School Districts in Kansas are distinct and seperate taxing entities, completely unrelated to, or regulated by, county governments. There are some school districts that are named so and so county USD xxx. There are even some districts whose boundaries conform to the county lines. These are flukes; they have absolutely no official connection with the actual county government.
Schools are funded in a very complicated manner. On the income side, there is a statewide mill levy for education. Neither the local district nor the local county government has any say in the collection of this statewide mill levy, except that the county is responsible for assessment of property within state mandated guidelines, and for collection of the tax due. That tax money goes to the state.
Then there is the Local Option Budget. This part of school funding is determined by the local school board within guidelines established by the state. A mill levy is then set that will collect this amount from within the school district. This amount is collected by the county government and distributed to the school district.
Thirdly, there can be a mill levy established to support a bond issue for construction. This levy is applied to and collected from the property within the school district. Again, it is collected by the county government and distributed to the school district.
Nowhere in all of the collection and distribution of these three different tax levies does the county government have any control over how much is collected and where it goes to.
In Elk County, not everyone pays at the same rate, because depending on which school district you live in, the LOB and/or bond levy can be different than if you lived in Elk County, but in a different school district.
I'll let someone else try and explain the even more Byzantine method the state has come up with to distribute the statewide mill levy back out to the individual school districts.
Charles
Thanks!! Property tax is not something I understand a lot about as I'm not generally the one that messes with it. My husband does all that. :)
According to our tax bill from last year we pay 13 mils. Now, correct me if I'm wrong as I'm trying to figure this out, but if it raises it 17.5 mils, isn't that more than doubling our property tax bill? :o :o
Or would it just go from 13 mils to 17.5 mils? Help!
Nobody in Kansas pays 13 mills for their school taxes. There is a statewide levy of 20 mills --- everybody pays it. In addition to that basic levy, there is a Local Option Budget which allows local school boards to raise additional funds, and the LOB has also maxed out in USD 282. I don't recall what the LOB amount is right now.
Flintauqua is right about our Byzantine method of local distribution. "Weighted" formulas enable the State Department of Education to add phantom students to rural, poor and under-served schools, and West Elk certainly pulls its share of state weighting. Overall, the school district gets back more money than taxpayers pay in. Sounds strange, I know.
Additionally, there are various formulas for the state matching or paying a portion of capital improvements, and that plays into the mix of returning funds to local coffers from the state.
We Kansans chose a complicated method of collecting taxes to pay for schools. To add more confusion, the KSBE is currently following the guidelines of a court order to keep statewide funding of schools "equalized," and that opens an entirely separate box of worms.
The Kansas Legislature has to wrestle with all these terminologies, formulas, and rural vs. urban attitudes so it's no wonder that we can't discuss a local bond issue without getting bleary-eyed.
Chee.
Sarah, there are 345 students in the district, that includes highschool, middle school, and gradeschool.
Quote from: Rudy Taylor on October 28, 2009, 08:22:57 PM
Nobody in Kansas pays 13 mills for their school taxes. There is a statewide levy of 20 mills --- everybody pays it. In addition to that basic levy, there is a Local Option Budget which allows local school boards to raise additional funds, and the LOB has also maxed out in USD 282. I don't recall what the LOB amount is right now.
Flintauqua is right about our Byzantine method of local distribution. "Weighted" formulas enable the State Department of Education to add phantom students to rural, poor and under-served schools, and West Elk certainly pulls its share of state weighting. Overall, the school district gets back more money than taxpayers pay in. Sounds strange, I know.
Additionally, there are various formulas for the state matching or paying a portion of capital improvements, and that plays into the mix of returning funds to local coffers from the state.
We Kansans chose a complicated method of collecting taxes to pay for schools. To add more confusion, the KSBE is currently following the guidelines of a court order to keep statewide funding of schools "equalized," and that opens an entirely separate box of worms.
The Kansas Legislature has to wrestle with all these terminologies, formulas, and rural vs. urban attitudes so it's no wonder that we can't discuss a local bond issue without getting bleary-eyed.
Chee.
Thank you. That explains a lot. :)
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 28, 2009, 08:25:56 PM
Sarah, there are 345 students in the district, that includes highschool, middle school, and gradeschool.
Thank you. :)
Sixdogs, there has been other daycares in Howard before and there are two in Moline. And it really doesn't matter if there are more. If need be I will close my doors. It won't change the fact that I feel that a new school is what is best for the whole situation. My family is from Severy. I have lived there all my life until I graduated and went off to college. I have ties to Severy. I don't want to see the building closed, but in the same sense I want my children to get the same education that they have been getting. If we continue to run the way that we are, something will have to give, and it worries me what it will be to close to my childrens education. I also taught for a couple of years in Moline, so I hate to see the school closed there too. But what is any other options? Putting the grade schools in the high school just won't work. I don't see how we can offer the programs for the Jr Sr high and take away rooms from them. We can really add on to the old building, as Pep noted. It would be really costly. So if you can give me a really good reason besides MONEY, I am voting YES!!
I believe that the Lord provides for us. Just ask and if its in the plan it will happen. I rely alot Lord, and especially when it comes to providing for my family. When I was asked to quit from the school, I was heart broken and just had my second child. The Lord opened doors so that I could stay with my children and still provide for them. Times have been tough really tough lately, but I feel in my heart that YES is the only option for my children. I would do anything for my children and so would most parents. I guess I am also one of those that are emotionally attached, but not to one certain building. I am attached to this district. I want what is best for my children, especially their education. I would rather see the district bulid a new building then put up portables.
Well, I said enough. Just to emotionally attached to WEST ELK!!!!
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 28, 2009, 07:51:17 PM
Computers are not the answer folks, they are a tool only.
No, please don't teach my kid the computer. It's a fad, like disco. It's going away and will be nothing more than a museum piece. HOLY COW!!!! I can't think of a job that doesn't use computers and computer software. Medical, Financial, Industrial, Agriculture.....everything. The information in the library is important, but all that information is now passed through computers. Computers are the answer.
You quoted me out of context, Mr.Pd. Of course computers should be used in education, please read the REST of the story! ???
Ok, using a computer has been made chimpanzee simple in todays age. 2 year old children can run one, 3 year olds can find their little sites by themselves with a web browser its so simple. Learning software is like uhmmm easy. Anyone can sit down with a dummy book and in 1 hour pick up the basics of any package. So why waste dollars teaching something that most kids already know in school. Shoot the school my kids went to had more troubles with the students hacking the servers and the teachers didn't know 1/10th of what the kids knew.
As far as programming the computers, thats easy too. Just teach them logic flow and they can program a computer. Its not like when i was growing up where we had to actually program them in machine language, or when the first wordstar came out and you had to know the control characters and letters to do a certain function that you now can do with a mouse and two clicks.
I doubt your going to teach any kid today anything about a computer, unless they get into OS specific courses, and networking/sans, wans, sonar, and fiber.
Quote from: srkruzich on October 29, 2009, 07:26:42 PM
Ok, using a computer has been made chimpanzee simple in todays age. 2 year old children can run one, 3 year olds can find their little sites by themselves with a web browser its so simple. Learning software is like uhmmm easy. Anyone can sit down with a dummy book and in 1 hour pick up the basics of any package. So why waste dollars teaching something that most kids already know in school. Shoot the school my kids went to had more troubles with the students hacking the servers and the teachers didn't know 1/10th of what the kids knew.
As far as programming the computers, thats easy too. Just teach them logic flow and they can program a computer. Its not like when i was growing up where we had to actually program them in machine language, or when the first wordstar came out and you had to know the control characters and letters to do a certain function that you now can do with a mouse and two clicks.
I doubt your going to teach any kid today anything about a computer, unless they get into OS specific courses, and networking/sans, wans, sonar, and fiber.
You took the words out of my mouth. When I was going to school there were no computers in the school except in the library. My dad had one at his work that I used a couple times for writing my composition papers, but other than that, I never really sat down at a computer until I was almost 25 years old and now I am VERY proficient on a computer and I've never had any special classes to "teach" computer. Most families these days have computers and so kids are exposed to them from the time they're born.
Steve is right, my 3 year old and 5 year old are very proficient on the computer and at finding what they want. They're not hard to learn and EVEN if you learn "computer" in school, that doesn't necessarily prepare you for the program you'll be using wherever it is that you work and most colleges supply all kind of advanced computing classes these days.
The library have computers? Yes. Each student have their own laptop? I don't know about that.
I agree that for children now, computer knowledge is very necessary. Also necessary is the ability to do things the "long hand way" because, believe it or not, computers do "go down" and try to get any information from somewhere when that happens. Try to get someone under the age of 50 to count your change if they don't have a computerized cash register (and most of them are) to tell them how much change you have coming (and then they just plop that amount into your hand without counting it. Proper english, spelling, punctuation, form, etc. is very necessary in the business world, even if it's being typed into a computer, and don't wait till the 11th grade to try to teach it to them so they can graduate (or is it even required anymore?)
Quote from: flo on October 29, 2009, 08:35:07 PM
I agree that for children now, computer knowledge is very necessary. Also necessary is the ability to do things the "long hand way" because, believe it or not, computers do "go down" and try to get any information from somewhere when that happens. Try to get someone under the age of 50 to count your change if they don't have a computerized cash register (and most of them are) to tell them how much change you have coming (and then they just plop that amount into your hand without counting it. Proper english, spelling, punctuation, form, etc. is very necessary in the business world, even if it's being typed into a computer, and don't wait till the 11th grade to try to teach it to them so they can graduate (or is it even required anymore?)
Hey now, i am under 50 and i count change quite well! In fact i usually have the total of my order already added up including tax and give them a 20 and when they push that 20.00 in the register buttons, and open the drawer, i mess em up and give them the change too so they wig out when the total doesn't match what is on their screen.
Quote from: flo on October 29, 2009, 08:35:07 PM
I agree that for children now, computer knowledge is very necessary. Also necessary is the ability to do things the "long hand way" because, believe it or not, computers do "go down" and try to get any information from somewhere when that happens. Try to get someone under the age of 50 to count your change if they don't have a computerized cash register (and most of them are) to tell them how much change you have coming (and then they just plop that amount into your hand without counting it. Proper english, spelling, punctuation, form, etc. is very necessary in the business world, even if it's being typed into a computer, and don't wait till the 11th grade to try to teach it to them so they can graduate (or is it even required anymore?)
I'll have to second Steve on that. Not only am I under 50, but under 40......barely, but barely counts.........and I know how to count back change. ;D
Oh, and my husband said he was running a restaurant when he was 21 and he said that yes, they did teach how to count back change in school and he's under 50 too. ;D
But yes, I do know what you're talking about Flo. Just giving you a hard time. :angel:
Steve, you are a mean, mean, man! :D
Quote from: srkruzich on October 29, 2009, 08:40:47 PM
Hey now, i am under 50 and i count change quite well! In fact i usually have the total of my order already added up including tax and give them a 20 and when they push that 20.00 in the register buttons, and open the drawer, i mess em up and give them the change too so they wig out when the total doesn't match what is on their screen.
That screws up the drawer count when you put more or less money in the register than what the ticket says. We have real issues with some employees and age has nothing to do with counting back change. We have 17 year olds that can do it in their sleep and others lets say closer to retirement than to highschool graduation that really struggle.
One thing that you can really screw up on is learning to peck. There is a proper way to keyboard. Watching the keys while you use them really slows down production. If you learn how to type and not teach your self one stroke at a time you can increase your speed until you peak. Bad habits are very hard to break and some peckers are really fast ;D.
The problem with education with out computers is not the computers but the technology. If you don't teach the technology you will always be behind everyone else. Voice recognition, biometrics and other input sources are going to dominate the near future. The next generation of hardware always dictates the next generation of software.
Quote from: ADP on October 29, 2009, 09:11:31 PM
That screws up the drawer count when you put more or less money in the register than what the ticket says. We have real issues with some employees and age has nothing to do with counting back change. We have 17 year olds that can do it in their sleep and others lets say closer to retirement than to highschool graduation that really struggle.
shouldn't screw up any drawer count if you give someone 20.35 for a 15.35 bill. Just give a 5 back and your drawer is covered.
QuoteOne thing that you can really screw up on is learning to peck. There is a proper way to keyboard. Watching the keys while you use them really slows down production. If you learn how to type and not teach your self one stroke at a time you can increase your speed until you peak. Bad habits are very hard to break and some peckers are really fast ;D.
Well thats not computers, thats typing. Typing class or as they call it today keyboarding, is useful but not essential. Usually it is offered in the 9th grades.
QuoteThe problem with education with out computers is not the computers but the technology. If you don't teach the technology you will always be behind everyone else. Voice recognition, biometrics and other input sources are going to dominate the near future. The next generation of hardware always dictates the next generation of software.
Well even if you train them on todays technology, its already 6 months out of date. You can buy the latest greatest computer with all the bells and whistles available today, and it will be obsolete in 6 months. Software though isn't that fast. So what if it is 32 bit or 64 bit. You have basically 2 lines of software, microsloth and unix.
Biometrics are kool toys, but they will change fast as most biometrics can be defeated. Only a couple are tough to defeat now and that will change as computer technology increases i power and speed.
We've had voice recognition software since the 80's and it hasn't changed that much. What has changed is the sound processors that Texas Instruments used for it.
The fields that kids today need to concentrate on preparing for are communications not computer fields. As more data is transmitted daily the bandwidth used has to be increased. Right now i think the private sector is trying to get online a OC192 bandwidth which is 10GB per sec bandwidth, but the military is working on OC388 i think which should be around 1 tbps bandwidth.
But you wont' get that kind of training or education from any school. Most of that knowlege is aquired from school of hard knocks and trial and error.
Right now around here the communications companies aren't using wire their using these cell towers for transmission lines with microwave transmission.
You know it would be kool to be able to teach this to kids in highschool but not possible. The equipment alone would make that 5.5mil bond issue look like chump change
To all of us that needs more information on the bond issue-------In this week's Prairie Star there is a very well written view about this,
written by Wanda Mills of Moline. The letter is a letter to the editor. If you don't subscribe to the paper, buy one at one of the business
that have them to sell. Wanda served many years on the school board of USD 282, and her letter is very enlightening.
There is also a full page ad from the supporting side of the bond issue. They have sunk a pile of money into this campaign, hoping to purchase some votes. :P
It's not "buying votes." It's helping to support a local newspaper which is a great asset to this community and we are lucky to have and it's about educating everyone so everyone knows exactly what they are voting on.
read the letter to the editor, read the full page ad, got a postcard in the mail yesterday, a two page information mailing a few days ago, and also read the post on the bulletin board at Swinging Bridge Cafe last nite. Getting a lot of info both pro and con and both sides have valid points.
How do you purchase something that is not for sale? :P
How many piles of money will it cost to continue as we have done in the past? :P
I have read all the articles in the paper and I missed the part about how doing nothing helps teach kids. If the bond fails we will never have to deal with it again? How is operating three different campus going to work without the budget to do so? Where can we save enough money with only even two?
How does voting no keep the school system doors open? Our taxes are going to go up with a no vote. The only thing you will accomplish is you will make it extremely difficult for your local school board to deal with ever lowering your tax burden. How much were your taxes 20 years ago? :-[ Write down what your taxes were two years ago. Write down what your taxes were last year. Write down what your taxes are going to be this year. Tell me which direction the numbers are going. Talk to me about this subject in 15 years.
Well, I have decided along time ago that I was voting YES!! But if it doesn't pass, I am really worried. Because I really feel that the state will step in, and it won't be pretty. I am kind of pig headed, and I won't send my kids anywhere else, plain and simple. I will homeschool them. Hopefully I won't have to do that, but that is what I will do.
Yes, the letters and information was all good with pros and cons, I do agree on that. But what options do any other people have? I haven't seen one put up here that even comes close to helping the problem. I feel that if you raise my taxes to support the school, which new school or not it will happen, I want to see it benefit the students. Not put on countless repairs that the list is just to long to list. And no one has even mentioned the portable buildings, which is to my understanding is option B if bond fails. Won't taxes be raised to buy them? Wouldn't everyone out there rather see a new building than these portables?
I would like to address the amount of taxes the commercial businesses will pay when the bond passes. This was brought to my attention by Mark Cookson, owner of Cookson's, who asked me the pro side of the bond issue, since he had heard the con side. I called our county appraiser to find out what commercial businesses in Elk County are valued at (from the county perspective not market value). Most businesses on Main st Howard are $30,000. Batson's is $40,000. Main St. Moline would be less. Two of the newest addition to the community would be Zimmerman - $328,000 and Mills Feed $101,000. Point of this - Cookson's True Value's property taxes with regards to the bond issue will go up $131.63 annually - Mark was under the impression it would be $3000!. Mills Feed will go up $438.00 (or $1.20/day). The "PIGEON INN" flyer going around has examples using $451,250 and $1,255,000 for commercial property (WRONG COUNTY)
If people do not trust the information put out by the Public information committee which was approved by the Bond Consultation (Piper Jaffray), here is the formula to figure how much the 17.55 mill (which is the mill increase from the $5,550,000 bond issue) will increase a commercial property or a residential property.
COMMERCIAL - Take the county appraised value x the commercial assessment rate (25%) x the mill levy (17.55)
For example - Batson's - $40,000 x .25 x .01755 =$175.50 ANNUALLY
RESIDENTIAL - take the county appraised value x the residential assessment rate (11.5%) x the mill levy (17.55)
For example - Joe Blow's house $36,360 x .115 x .01755 = $73.38 ANNUALLY
$36000 is close to the average of home values in Elk County. Very few people are in homes appraised more than $75,000. Also people who live in low income housing - DO NOT PAY PROPERTY TAX.
Thanks Liz!!!
Thank you, Liz, for the some real numbers that will hopefully calm some folks' nerves. Unfortunately, there are some nay-sayers who claim that money is the issue, when it's really their emotions driving the bus off the cliff. I hope cooler and wiser heads prevail on Tuesday, and we can give the county's young people what they deserve.
I used this analogy earlier today, and thought it was worth repeating. In regards to the improvements made to the Moline and Severy schools some years ago (media rooms, multi-purpose room, etc. -- which are nice, but ....), it's similar to spending money for bypass surgery on a patient who's dying of incurable cancer. It buys a little time but at great expense. It does nothing to improve longevity or quality of life, and the same result is achieved in the end whether the surgery was a success or not.
Oh, you said it GREAT indygal!! It's not about the money to many, that's my opinion. Yes, I live in Howard now, but as I stated 100 times, I grew up in Severy. Many of my childrens teachers were my teachers, Mrs. Perkins was one. I hate to see this happen, too. But come on something has got to give, and I still don't hear anyone tell me any good solution!!!
Liz, you failed to mention that the taxes you quote will be plus what you will already be paying. That is, if you already pay close to $1000.00 per year then your school bond issue will be on top of that tax. Has anyone mentioned that Elk county has the largest unemployment rate in the state? We rank number one, at 11% folks. It is not a good time to add more tax burden. And remember, if you rent, then your landlord will be paying more taxes, and you will probably be looking at an increase in rental payments. And Angie, you didn't answer my long ago question about how you would feel if it were proposed to build a new grade school building in another town?
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 30, 2009, 05:44:22 PM
Liz, you failed to mention that the taxes you quote will be plus what you will already be paying. That is, if you already pay close to $1000.00 per year then your school bond issue will be on top of that tax. Has anyone mentioned that Elk county has the largest unemployment rate in the state? We rank number one, at 11% folks. It is not a good time to add more tax burden. And remember, if you rent, then your landlord will be paying more taxes, and you will probably be looking at an increase in rental payments. And Angie, you didn't answer my long ago question about how you would feel if it were proposed to build a new grade school building in another town?
You have not answered my question about how to lower our tax bill with out eliminating both grade schools. Didn't you mention that you travel to Bartlesville, Sedan, and Independence to shop for things that you could get in Elk County. You would pay much higher sales tax in Bartlesville and would be contributing to their city as well as their county. I am sure that they are very appreciative of you as a customer. Sedan consolidated their schools years ago. They have one campus are are benefiting from the low LOB because of their foresight. Independence has just pasted a huge bond issue to build a new school. They also have a higher sales tax rate that I am sure you are well aware of and I am sure the school system there is very proud of the school that you are building them.
When is a good time to add more taxes? For the last thirty years we have had better times than this and it was not a better time to fix the school problem. The issue has been around through seven presidential administrations. We have had several school board members that were told not over my dead body. So when may I ask is a good time to bring this before the community?
The day after we are told to lock the doors?
I don't live in Howard and never have even slept a night there. I looked back over the books for the last 14 years I have had 13% more business from people in Moline and Severy than Howard. So if we are just going to look at the numbers of dollars and where they are spent I am from Severy and Moline. I also buy a lot more things from Moline and Severy than I do in Howard. Did I do so because there was a grade school there? No. Will I discontinue because there might not be one there in the future? No.
So why is the litmus test of a community's prosperity the fact that there is a school building in the city limits? Our communities are not three separate countries with brick walls between them. We are interlaced from the ground up. We have a very rural agricultural based economy but yet in Howard you can't buy a cup of feed for a cow. Try to buy more than 50 lbs of dog food at a time, need some body work done on your car, need propane sorry, want to sell some grain, or buy a pair of leather gloves and where do you think you are going to do this? You are either going to Severy or Moline. We need all three communities to work together . So why does it matter where Angie lives? You should be asking where does Angie want to be in the future.
I remember when a new high school building was proposed in another town, which meant tearing down the old Severy High School building and how upset some of the old people who had gone to school in the old building were. I couldn't understand why they were upset. A building is a building, not a person. It was not practical to try to save it and use it for something else. It wasn't safe to hold classes in.
Personally, I don't care where a new building is built, if it were put in Severy or in Moline, or out in the country someplace. A new school building should be as centrally located as possible. Besides, where the new school is located is not the issue here. The new school building is the issue. It is either go on the way we are, knowing that we can't afford to or doing something about it. Yes, it will cost. Using the formula that Liz gave us, I figure that two tanks of gas would just about equal the increase in my taxes. I can give up two tanks of gas a year.
As to renters having to pay more rent, I don't believe that the low income housing pays taxes, therefore, their rent should not be increased because of an increase in taxes. Landlords have other expenses that can cause an increase in rent. There is higher insurance, higher cost of repairs, etc. These are all things that you have to expect when you own property. Remember, one of the two things that are certain in life is taxes.
Flo, I got one of the Pigeon Inn fliers, amusing to say the least. Had some good points also. I don't know who gets the credit, so there are certainly others than yours truly who are not supporting this bond issue.
Remember this a flyer that is supposed to tell you that there isn't a need to put more money in to your local school system. You have spoken to the lack of readability of many posts on here. So let me hear you critique it for spelling, grammar, and punctuation.
The "Pigeon Inn" was sold by the district many years, if not decades ago. It was a taxable thriving business for many years. It has had three or four different owners. So how do you blame its current state of disrepair on the school district. If you sell a house and you pass ownership of the property to them you are no longer responsible for the structure. Some else lives there. If they sell it and someone else moves in and trashes it. Do you then bear the responsibility to go and live in it?
Why is this an issue for a school bond? The picture isn't even that good. If they would have used their heads they would have gotten pictures of the inside up through the roof. Sensationalism sells to the masses.
"They refer to a centralized campus," is my favorite quote. Back on the bus has been sung by every kid in the entire system at some point in there tenure at West Elk. You ride as a elementary school kid, you ride as a junior high kid, and you ride as a high school kid. It just depends on where you live as to how long you ride.
We want a centralized campus to save money. An enrichment program is something that we can do with the money saved from achieving a centralized campus.
We offer a SCOOT program currently but there is no funding stream for its guaranteed existence. It is not a required course, no testable value, and would probably be one of the first programs cut.
Unemployment at 11%. 1135 number of workers available. 1010 currently employed. 125 unemployed
3047 total in 2008. So if you look at it from the big picture of the 3047 that want a job 125 can't find one. 95.8976% of the people living in Elk county are doing exactly what they want to be doing. 4.10239 percent aren't.
I really should stay out of this because I'm an out-of-state Elk County taxpayer and can't even vote in the election. However, this is NOT an issue of an elementary school being built in Howard. The high school happens to be in Howard, so that IS where the elementary needs to be to so everything can be centralized and run much more economically effectively. If the high school had been constructed on the Elk County Airport grounds, that is where the elementary should be. If the high school had been built north on Highway 99, that is where the elementary school should be. This county has got to pull together and let all those old, old rivalries disappear.
I was in high school when we went from individual school districts to the Unified District 282. That made many people uneasy. Did it interfere with my education? No. Later on when the high schools were consolidated, many people were uneasy. Did the students care and did it interfere with their education? No. We are going down a dead-end road with no turn-around if we don't wake up and keep control of our schools. Things are tight economically for all of us, but this is well worth facing and addressing in a positive manner to preserve what our Elk County kids deserve.
Quote from: ADP on October 30, 2009, 07:21:26 PM
Why is this an issue for a school bond? The picture isn't even that good. If you would have used your head you would have gotten pictures of the inside up through the roof. Sensationalism sells to the masses.
Excuse me? I have already said that I thought the flyer was amusing, but I had nothing to do with it!
I have been sitting quietly back in the background( I know .. shocker!) :) and have really read and studied all that has been said on both sides of the issue..
I don't have much to add. I think that the ones that are for it have more than covered all the facts..and the ones that are not for it.. have spoken their minds and covered what they deem important also. This forum has been a wealth of information on this subject and from that I have better been able to listen to the talk around town from those who do not post in here. I have appreciated all sides of this issue. I don't have kids in school.. but I do have grandkids that will be going to school here hopefully for the full extent of their grade school and high school educations.
Wanda Mills made some very common sense statements that I know for a fact, is on everyone's minds and are major concern factors.. They are on all of our minds regardless of if we are pro pr con on this issue. I think that everyone who is concerned with the money issue is also caring and concerned for the education and safety of our children and grandchildren. Money and rising taxes are a huge concern for everyone now.
But... taxes everywhere have steadily but surely gone up each and every year and they are going to continue to do so. I don't think this out of control speeding train is going to stop for a long time.
And right now with the administration we have in the White House ..and the horrible shape our economy is in isn't probably the best time to be building anything. But when IS a good time?? Building materials are not going to go down... Labor costs to build are not going to get cheaper..current equipment that is wearing out is not going to suddenly start working properly or get cheaper to replace and the list goes on and on.
How much money are we willing to continue to put in 3 separate buildings and hope that they all continue to creak and groan by for the next 20-30 years?
Yes.. our taxes will go up some. They go up every month in one way or another..
I mean every time you add new windows on your house.. a new shed in your back yard.. fresh paint on your garage..mow your grass more than once a week... add a few yard ornaments to your lawn ...the beady little greedy eyes of the appraiser is quick to run back and jot it all down so it can be added to your taxes.. ) **sorry.. got off on another rant there** :-\ So yeah.. our taxes will go up.. the question you have to ask yourselves is ... do we want to pay for doing something like this now? or later.. cause something will have to be done sometime. Having a county as small and spread out as ours is and our children scattered all over in patched up buildings isn't going to be real conducive to saving money in the future.
My vote is.. get rid of the scattered out expenses.. scattered out kids.. scattered out teachers..
Build one school... get everyone all together... compact it up and lets get on with our lives.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 30, 2009, 07:40:35 PM
Quote from: ADP on October 30, 2009, 07:21:26 PM
Why is this an issue for a school bond? The picture isn't even that good. If you would have used your head you would have gotten pictures of the inside up through the roof. Sensationalism sells to the masses.
Excuse me? I have already said that I thought the flyer was amusing, but I had nothing to do with it!
I didn't mean you did. I will change the text to say what I meant.
Karen as a teacher, you are more than welcome to post in this section as far as I am concerned. As a taxpayer, and as a voter, I hope that voters will realise the uncertainty that building a building for a shrinking student population will bring to our school district. We can only look for the entire district to be combined with another, and there is no building that will change that. Wishes will not change that, and outside money will not change that. The state as well as other states are having to cut budgets just as I am having to do. I cannot see that paying for a building will in any way stop this certain tide. It is coming; just a matter of when. A bond will have to be paid regardless; if the state combines our district with another, we will still have to pay. I cannot see spending money on a building when we already have two acceptable buildings. Combining a lunchroom to save money? Surely they do not think that you can feed three hundred forty five people for the same cost as one hundred thirty five? I squawk about taxes and will probably continue to do so, but I would like to see my tax money used for something we really need.
Yes you can feed 345 students cheaper in one kitchen then you can feed 345 in three.
If we are combined with another district our bond payments liabilities will be combined with another districts.
One huge district is still going to require you to pay taxes for one huge district. What will be the big difference?
The state is asking districts to become more efficient. If we are more efficient then neighboring districts then what is the issue?
In your sky is falling theory: Our district will not be combined with anyone. It will be absorbed by a larger district. When they get the students they get the funding from the head count of those students. At that point we no longer exist. Instead of having a representative from each area/town we will be a part of a larger district. Our board member might be the one for Elk county or the one for Ek/Cq. Who knows? This is your nightmare.
We have three acceptable buildings. The newest one is currently outfitted as a high school and two are sharing the role as elementary. We could better utilize limited funding by eliminating the two and building one.
in 1952: If you had ten kids you would most likely drive huge bus like passenger van. Or you would drive two 1952 six passenger vehicles. One for each half or your flock. If they all grow up and move out, at $3.59 a gallon, you would not continue driving large highly expensive van when you only need a two passenger car? You would sell the vans and buy a more economically powered vehicle that would meet your needs. You would not keep driving an expensive gas hog when a cheaper more efficient car would serve you much better. You could put a new motor in the 52's but they would need brakes, a new transmission, batteries, the list goes on. Even a few years ago you had custom wheels and a new paint job, the they are still '52 models. They don't have airbags. The radios are only am. There is no power steering.
You would spend the money and buy a new car. It would cost you money up front but with the money you would save on fuel alone, you would come out better in the long run.
Wow.... So much information, definitely a lot to process, and many factors to consider.
Quick Question: ??? How many positions within the district will be eliminated?
Am I correct in assuming that if the bond passes many jobs like teachers, secretaries, certain para positions, library/computer aids, classroom aids, cooks and janitors would be cut due to redundancy? Any information on the numbers or the plan for how this will work?
I have a question from a remark on an earlier post. Can you explain why the roof in the high school is leaking? I realize it is 30 years old but with proper maintance it should have been taken care of or is it a money issue? If it is a money issue how will you have the money to keep up the new school building? If the bond is passed will some of the money be used to fix the roof?
Jane
Quote from: Jane on October 31, 2009, 07:43:35 AM
If it is a money issue how will you have the money to keep up the new school building? If the bond is passed will some of the money be used to fix the roof?
Jane
Uhmm Raise taxes??
I remember that this information had already been posted about funds for repairing the roof at the High School.
Quote from: L Hendricks on October 23, 2009, 07:05:53 AM
Citizens are suggesting repairs to existing elementary schools as an option. The only money we have for repairs is what the district has been able to set aside over the years and it equals $650,000. Currently that money is on hold waiting to see what happens with the election - if the bond passes then that money will be used to make the roof and metal sheeting repairs to the high school. IF THE BOND fails then the board has looked at using that money to make the existing high school campus the CENTRALIZED campus - through some sort of temporary classrooms. With school finance, if we need 1.5 million dollars to do repairs on one of the elementary school, the only way we can get that money is through the Local Option Budget (LOB). Our current financial situation doesn't allow for us to raise that extra money because we have maxed out the LOB - we cannot raise it anymore. The money we currently raise with taxpayer money pays for the operating cost of the district. The only way for taxes EVER to go down is with a yes vote. Both Longton and Sedan are post bond years, and have decreased their LOB. With a no vote, you are guaranteed to keep the school taxes high and most likely see decrease in programs - like Vo Ag, Arts, Music, Woods, Home Ec (Facs), Spanish, Business - all important aspects of a well rounded education - especially for students that may choose to go straight from high school into a career.
Does anyone have an answer or an idea to Wasadeay's question?
Quote from: wasadeay on October 31, 2009, 01:01:16 AM
WowÂ…. So much information, definitely a lot to process, and many factors to consider.
Quick Question: ??? How many positions within the district will be eliminated?
Am I correct in assuming that if the bond passes many jobs like teachers, secretaries, certain para positions, library/computer aids, classroom aids, cooks and janitors would be cut due to redundancy? Any information on the numbers or the plan for how this will work?
The only person that could make that recommendation would be the superintendent and as with anything that has to do with the school system the school board has the final say. They will not say definitely what the option for the future is without the results of the bond election. There is a board meeting the week after the bond election on Tuesday. There are too many possibilities to consider without having all information.
Quote from: Jane on October 31, 2009, 07:43:35 AM
I have a question from a remark on an earlier post. Can you explain why the roof in the high school is leaking? I realize it is 30 years old but with proper maintenance it should have been taken care of or is it a money issue? If it is a money issue how will you have the money to keep up the new school building? If the bond is passed will some of the money be used to fix the roof?
Jane
The roof on the high school is thirty years old. Most roof systems have a 50 year life span unless you have much more expensive materials. The roofing contractor stated we would need to think about a new roof in the next 7-10 years. We didn't have that much money in the seventies either. The roof and curbs have had work done on them since we changed from total electric to natural gas and propane years ago. The roof is a low slope commercial roof and needs maintenance for the life of the building. Materials are available that can and will extend the life of the roof but you have to patch each hole that comes up or replace the entire thing at once. The current holes are being patched as they are being found.
What kind of roof is it? Membrane and pebbles? Standing seam? Tar?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on October 31, 2009, 02:19:25 PM
What kind of roof is it? Membrane and pebbles? Standing seam? Tar?
Straw!
;D Wheat, rush, cane or Thatch? ;D
back up a few posts there was a mention (using my name) about a Pigeon Inn, or something to that effect and a flier. I didn't receive it, I guess and am now guessing that what was being talked about was the old Howard high school building, which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. The flier I received was from the "Vote Yes" committee. Folks, I have done my share of complaining about the amount of taxes I pay here in Elk County, and know that even without a new centralized school, the taxes will go up each year for something, soooooooo.......... You have just a few days to make up your minds before it's time to go to the polls. I've got mine made up, I THINK ! ! ! ! ! ::) ::) ::) Can't straddle the fence on this - you've got to vote yea or nay ??? ??? ??? or shut up. :angel:
Originally it was going to be gold plated with silver lined bell tower and onyx columns on both sides of the bus load out. That was back in the seventies as local farmers were flush with their fortunes and when every one was driving on cheap gas after the oil embargo. I think the funding all went to Rumpus Ridge. It was after the funding fell through and someone hijacked the gold shipment.
It is most commonly referred to as a bad or leaky roof. It is not flat. It doesn't have pebbles. It is not one slope. The water drains to the outside edges. Roof curbs are on the slopes for the HVAC units. It is membrane rubber. With weird expansion joints. Kansas wind. Hail... All really enjoy picking on it.
The holes are being fixed by roofing contractor. I don't know if it is a warrantied repair or not. I would assume not because of the age and type of roof.
Thanks. ;)
Flo, I don't think the flyer I refer to as "Pigeon Inn" went to the Howard voters, mostly just to the Severy and Moline voters. And "Pigeon Inn" is in reference to the old grade school in Howard. Also just if there are any people on here that might have had something to do with the flyer - bad idea to use information that was produced by the Piper Jaffray group without their permission...Not a good idea at all!
ADP, thanks for the good answers. They are appreciated.
Thank you ADP for the response..... and greatguns for the assist ;D
An article in this morning's Wichita Eagle is interesting: "Can reducing the number of school districts solve state budget woes?"
http://www.kansas.com/topstories/story/1037079.html
It references a 2001 study:
http://www.ksde.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=DhdRzGy%2B8PY%3D&tabid=1916
Wow. Article uses eight year old data to say that small schools with crappie test scores are the first to be consolidated. DUH.....
If you have high test scores then what happens, do you get more money?
Why are we using decade old data? This reporter is trying to make a headline.
It also goes on to state that larger overbuilt schools like Wichita and Shawnee should be picked apart. They are overburden with top heavy salaries and waste. How can one district in western Kansas with 38 students in 2001 compete with salaries offered by a school like Wichita with 49,000 students.
The only thing I get out of this I already knew. If you want to survive you must become more efficient.
Wow, not a great turn out at the polls yesterday. Out of 1728 Registered District 282 voters only 949 voted? It was commented that it was a good number. I don't agree.
I believe that the "NO" voters think they have saved their buildings from being shut down. A "NO" vote was NOT going to stop the closing of the schools. I think they believe they saved their taxes from increasing. Taxes will increase regardless if there is a new school or not. I think they believe they saved the elementary school from being placed in Howard. It was going to determine if we built a nice looking updated facility or sat pods on the existing campus. It is impossible to continue to maintain the 3 separate campuses. The issue was at one time what to do with the buildings. How to fix them, which one to fix and maintain. We have far gone beyond that topic. The issue at hand was to build a new school at Howard which is centrally located or not. If we were not building a new facility we go on with option B, place pods or trailers at the high school location.
The "NO" votes have now made it possible to place trailers at the West Elk Campus, instead of the new building. We will now move on with Plan B. It should be an adventure moving from one trailer to another for computer classes, library, to eat in a cafeteria, and to use the high school gym occupied by Jr. High & high School kids.
Well, "NO" voters, you have been heard. Thank you.
Now let's address those that didn't vote. I am sure there were people who were sick or gone for various reasons that could not help not being at the polls. I am not addressing them. I am addressing the ones who have no excuse or those that say, "It doesn't matter one way or another, so I'm not voting." Well, by not voting you are making a decision to allow others to make a decision for you. And I doubt truly if the issue was brought up if you would keep quiet. You have an opinion; you just chose not to put it in the form as a vote. I won't even get on a tangent about the right we have to vote and it being our obligation as well as a gift.
LadyD, my ballot said that the vote was whether or not to accept a bond to construct a new school at Howard, it did not say any of that other stuff. I too have heard all these threats from several people, but those issues were not on the ballot were they?
They weren't but what do you think they will do next? Keep both schools open? I was just wondering. I really doubt that will happen. Maybe one, but that is still pushing it. Sixdogs, you have never told me or anyone else what do you think should happen. Not trying to be mean, but everyone is welcome to voice there opinion. I know that you didn't want the bond to pass, but what would you think the district could do to help this problem? Just wondering.
The other items do not need to be on the ballot as they would be financed out of general revenue. The purpose of the ballot is to agree to a bond issue.
I take it the bond vote failed?
The other options could not be on the ballot, as the vote was for the bond issue as a pass or fail option. The vote wasn't for or against alternatives. I agree Angie, I don't see a solution that keeps either school open.
The other items can be agreed upon solely by the school board in a regular vote or a special session, there is no requirement for them to be put to a vote such as with a bond financing option. The only probably remaining option that will allow the school board to finance their operations in the future would require closing of both of the elementary campuses and then relocating the students to Howard campus in portables which will be a logistical nightmare not to mention segregating the elementary schools and dealing with the kindergartners and the preschool kids and creating their play area.
I am really shocked. It has been two days. The ink is barely dry on the dry erase board at the court house. I have been on the edge of my seat chomping at the bit. That means that for the last 48 hours I have been waiting for the big plan. There has to be a big plan. There has to be better ideas. Those new ideas about lower taxes and improved programs must have been eclipsed by the brilliance of old school world order. There should be at least six hundred and twenty two opinions of what the next step is. Surely every one of you didn't blindly vote your conscience just to be negative. Surely you were not just voting no because you were told to. You had to have a thought on what should happen today. Not tomorrow. Not in three to five years but today. We have kids in school right now that need teachers. We have an entire staff now in limbo thinking more about updating resumes than lesson plans. Where they used to be looking at the sports page they are looking at the classifieds. You are thinking about your new and improved tax burden. So what are your plans to lessen that burden. Should be a great day. You just turned the largest employer in Elk county into another statistic. You chose to remain fragmented and disorganized. You choose the status quo over progress. We are no better now then we were twenty years ago. Change is a bad. You severely limited the school board and the administration in finding a workable financial solution. The bond funding was the easiest part of the complexity of the schools problems. Now will come the hard part. What programs are so worthless that they will be discontinued immediately? Which activities will not be available at we in the foreseeable future? What are your values when it comes to nonessential personal. You don't want to lose a school building but you are willing to risk every thing that makes it a great place to educate.
What is a doable solution?
Well said PEP!! We need options and no one seems to be giving any. I for one am attending Monday night to see what our school system will do. I feel like I failed my kids. My kids don't really understand what is happening, but still as a parent I feel that we are failing them left and right by not allowing this to pass. Even my husband who never says much has been worried about his issue, alot!! That says something!! I can't wait till this time next year, my taxes will be, well I will have to get a loan to pay them off. Much higher than if the bond would have passed!!
angtown3 and ADP
there have been quite a few options posted in the 2 threads concerning this issue. They won't work, not feasible?
Almost two thirds of the voters say the bond issue won't work, is not feasible.
Lets find out why the bond didn't pass and revise it and try again.
I am a stick in the mud conservative and I don't like change. Some of my problems with the bond are
Why move the bus barn?
We will save 500k a year by closing 2 schools. How much of the 500k will go to repaying the bond?
Get the cost down to 2.5 or 3 million and I'd vote yes.
Hey oki- that is what I have heard alot of people state. I have to be honest, I am not sure exactly why they are moving the bus barn and such. I would guess that it has to do with where they would put the play ground and such. But I hear what you are saying! Maybe that is an option. I think what they will do with the money they will save from closing the two school is my guess put it into the portables, and the high school. I might be wrong.
I didn't mean to offend anyone. I again think there is no win-win in this situation. I am just glad that my children have the teachers that they have now and have had!!
Quote from: okiemon on November 06, 2009, 07:08:33 AM
angtown3 and ADP
there have been quite a few options posted in the 2 threads concerning this issue. They won't work, not feasible?
Almost two thirds of the voters say the bond issue won't work, is not feasible.
Lets find out why the bond didn't pass and revise it and try again.
I am a stick in the mud conservative and I don't like change. Some of my problems with the bond are
Why move the bus barn?
We will save 500k a year by closing 2 schools. How much of the 500k will go to repaying the bond?
Get the cost down to 2.5 or 3 million and I'd vote yes.
I'm with you okiemon. 5.5 million seems like a pretty big chunk of change in light of...
1. Declining enrollment
2. Declining/aging population
3. Increasing taxation in other areas
4. The very real possibility that the state will make consolidation moves regardless of what we do locally.
5. The potential of serious life changes that could be brought on by 'health care reform' and 'cap and tax'.
Aside from the 5.5 million being excessive, imho, I'm concerned that with such a big move having been considered that there was so little real publication of the 'plan'. We heard about it quite by accident. And no, I have better things to do with my time than sit with my arms folded at every board meeting just waiting to see what's next. I never cease to be amazed at the way formal matters are presented to the public... usually by the ole grapevine and usually at the last minute (re. the slick brochure promoting the bond that was mailed out AFTER the date to register to vote). Public servants need to know that their responsibilities include keeping their constituency well advised. If that means they need to increase their postage budget a bit, then so be it.
I couldn't help but notice the 'selling tactics' used to promote this last bond. Things like 'only $8.00 a month'. In professional sales and marketing, that's called breaking it down to the ridiculous. People won't worry about it if it only amounts to the cost of a can of pop a day. Slick, but not real informative. It's a selling ploy. I don't like being 'sold' something.
I, too, believe some sort of centralization of the schools is a good answer to many things. I think a sealed bid process might be a better approach to getting competitive price options.
Ok, I'll rant more later. Just some thoughts that crossed my mind.
I happened to hear about the bond issue through Steve as I don't generally frequent the Howard board, but knew nothing of it. We don't subscribe to any papers, so I guess it might have been in the local paper.
All board minutes are posted in the paper. Paula McAlister has even posted some on the forum. Yes, I agree the meetings can seem rather long and "boring", but if you want the information it is up to you to go get it.
Quote from: gina on November 06, 2009, 08:30:59 AM
All board minutes are posted in the paper. Paula McAlister has even posted some on the forum. Yes, I agree the meetings can seem rather long and "boring", but if you want the information it is up to you to go get it.
WHOA!.... I'm sorry, but that only goes do far. Especially in a county with only 3000 residents. The responsiblity to 'get the word out' on the biggest of issues (like spending 5.5 million dollars of the taxpayers money) rests primarily with our elected representatives. Government works for US, remember? NOT the other way around.
Generally speaking, unless a person's children go to that school, most people don't attend the school board meetings do they?
I agree. What other ideas did you have about how to get the information out there? The best way to get information to the public is through the media, which in Elk County consists of the newspaper and bulletins put up in public places. This was done by the district. What other alternatives were there? Just curious what you think, I'm not being judgemental by any means.
Quote from: gina on November 06, 2009, 08:43:08 AM
I agree. What other ideas did you have about how to get the information out there? The best way to get information to the public is through the media, which in Elk County consists of the newspaper and bulletins put up in public places. This was done by the district. What other alternatives were there? Just curious what you think, I'm not being judgemental by any means.
I gave a suggestion in an earlier post: The US Mail.
Yes, 1700 registered voters x $0.44 is $748.00 (Assuming 1st class postage is used. There might be cheaper govt rates.)
That cost would allow the mailing of a 1st class letter consisting of up to 5 pages.
Maybe the board could budget for a couple of mailings a year at this rate for those times when something really big is being considered. Knowing beforehand that public hearings/discussions are taking place on critical might engender some more attendance at the meetings.
Further, if pre-notice is required to speak at a board meeting, just attending 'at will' kinda short circuits public comment. No?
There have been times that the board has asked for the public input during a meeting. The board members are also open to you contacting them to discuss whatever matter. The board did mail out a flier regarding the matter. I know that it went out to parents of children first, then to the remainder of the public. Yes, some were received after the voter registration deadline but this did not affect me as I have been registered to vote since I turned 18 many years ago. Now I am depressed at the thought of how long ago it was that I was 18. :'(
Quote from: gina on November 06, 2009, 08:59:02 AM
There have been times that the board has asked for the public input during a meeting. The board members are also open to you contacting them to discuss whatever matter. The board did mail out a flier regarding the matter. I know that it went out to parents of children first, then to the remainder of the public. Yes, some were received after the voter registration deadline but this did not affect me as I have been registered to vote since I turned 18 many years ago. Now I am depressed at the thought of how long ago it was that I was 18. :'(
Ok... the board mailed out a flier... if that was the slick foldover... it was LATE! Should have been out weeks before the vote. And since when is such a mailing from a governmental body who is responsible to ALL taxpayers given preference to 'folks with kids'. While the families with children have a vested interest in the outcomes, the fiduciary and legal responsibility of the board is to ALL the taxpayers.
While it's nice that the board 'at times' asks for public input at its' meetings, that doesn't do much good on large issues if there is nobody there to give input. As for contacting the board, that's a dodge. The issue was board responsibility to make sure the affected taxpayers were aware of such a large issue well BEFORE decisions are made or votes are taken. Not as an afterthought. My suggestion stands. Just because the board meets the minimum legal standards of publication in a recognized newspaper does not preclude them from going a bit further on such major issues. I'm sure we expect the 'extra mile' from our kids, is it too much to expect the same from our elected folks?
I've been reading posts, studying "between the lines" and here is my opinion, for what it's worth. Howard's voters carried most of the YES votes. The majority of the NO's were from the other towns in the district. Do you suppose they voted NO, not because of the raise in taxes or the cost of a new school, but because they did not want to lose the school in their town????? They may lose it anyhow, but can't blame them for being concerned about their communities, can we? If in fact this is the reason for voting the way they did. I don't know, I'm only guessing, but makes sense to me. Yes, Howard voted yes, but they had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Some took into consideration the raise in their taxes, but I read that taxes took a jump higher this year and there isn't a new school to blame, is there?
Quote from: Patriot on November 06, 2009, 09:11:54 AM
Ok... the board mailed out a flier... if that was the slick foldover... it was LATE! Should have been out weeks before the vote. And since when is such a mailing from a governmental body who is responsible to ALL taxpayers given preference to 'folks with kids'. While the families with children have a vested interest in the outcomes, the fiduciary and legal responsibility of the board is to ALL the taxpayers.
Simply put, when your using OTHER peoples money to provide bells and whistles, the OTHER people that provide the money have the most right to be notified that their money is about to be mugged.
Quote from: flo on November 06, 2009, 09:23:45 AM
Yes, Howard voted yes, but they had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Some took into consideration the raise in their taxes, but I read that taxes took a jump higher this year and there isn't a new school to blame, is there?
true but how much money can the county suck out of peoples pockets before they bankrupt the folks that support it.
Quote from: flo on November 06, 2009, 09:23:45 AM
I've been reading posts, studying "between the lines" and here is my opinion, for what it's worth. Howard's voters carried most of the YES votes. The majority of the NO's were from the other towns in the district. Do you suppose they voted NO, not because of the raise in taxes or the cost of a new school, but because they did not want to lose the school in their town????? They may lose it anyhow, but can't blame them for being concerned about their communities, can we? If in fact this is the reason for voting the way they did. I don't know, I'm only guessing, but makes sense to me. Yes, Howard voted yes, but they had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Some took into consideration the raise in their taxes, but I read that taxes took a jump higher this year and there isn't a new school to blame, is there?
I agree that was a lot of the reason. I think they don't want to lose their schools and I think that was stated as a reason many times. But even with the new school, Howard may lose the school too. Just because a new school is built I don't think that will matter to the state if they decide to come in, but it has crossed my mind that part of the reason the new school was being proposed was that perhaps the idea had crossed some minds that if they built a new school and made themselves look inviting to the state, that if they did consolidate school districts, that perhaps they would consolidate them to Howard bringing in more Federal money into this school system.
Quote from: flo on November 06, 2009, 09:23:45 AM
I've been reading posts, studying "between the lines" and here is my opinion, for what it's worth. Howard's voters carried most of the YES votes. The majority of the NO's were from the other towns in the district. Do you suppose they voted NO, not because of the raise in taxes or the cost of a new school, but because they did not want to lose the school in their town????? They may lose it anyhow, but can't blame them for being concerned about their communities, can we? If in fact this is the reason for voting the way they did. I don't know, I'm only guessing, but makes sense to me. Yes, Howard voted yes, but they had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Some took into consideration the raise in their taxes, but I read that taxes took a jump higher this year and there isn't a new school to blame, is there?
Very possible you are right, flo. But the higher taxes with the school bond might well have made matters even worse financially for the taxpayer.
On another matter, when do we begin to see that as government grows, the rest of us shrink. This country was not built on the ability of the government to grow and 'make things happen', but on the ingenuity and drive of the citizenry to provide for itself. Bureaucrats and elected officials sometimes think they have all the answers. All they lack is more of the taxpayer's money and more bureaucrats/agencies/boards/plans/programs etc. Ain't necessarily so.
Has Kansas said what, if anything, they plan to do? Have any of you talked to anyone who would know? States don't have any money now either.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 06, 2009, 09:35:37 AM
Has Kansas said what, if anything, they plan to do? Have any of you talked to anyone who would know? States don't have any money now either.
Well you know something, if the states don't have the money, they need to cut back. This crap of sucking more tax dollars when they blow the money their given, has to stop. The feds are out of control, the states are out of control.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 06, 2009, 09:35:37 AM
Has Kansas said what, if anything, they plan to do? Have any of you talked to anyone who would know? States don't have any money now either.
As of a week or two ago, the governor has asked and house committee is re-studying the issues of consolidation all over the state. o Consolidation is seen as a way to save the state money in the long run. It's gonna happen. Just a matter of when.
Local schools ought to remove themselves from the public school system that the State
and Federals oversee. Why have a desire to be a part of their socialist agenda.
Quote from: redcliffsw on November 06, 2009, 10:09:34 AM
Local schools ought to remove themselves from the public school system that the State
and Federals oversee. Why have a desire to be a part of their socialist agenda.
Blah Blah Blah, "some ultra-rightist stuff".... anyway it isn't really constructive to the conversation. Ideas that would resolve the situation and are plausible would be helpful.
Quote from: redcliffsw on November 06, 2009, 10:09:34 AM
Local schools ought to remove themselves from the public school system that the State
and Federals oversee. Why have a desire to be a part of their socialist agenda.
I would vote yes... but there's a snag or 3(thousand). Laws that the people allowed to be passed over the years would preclude that action (both on legal and financial grounds). Years ago, school systems began taking large amounts of money from the federal and state governments.... all to improve the quality of education. Well, that started the addiction. Now we're hooked and probably could not meet the mandated educational requirements imposed by state and federal authorities without that money. Look at the recent bond issue and see how much federal/state money was being counted on. We aren't self sufficient enough to do what you suggest, I'm afraid.
I would gladly make a yearly contribution to assist in supporting a quality PRIVATE school, but could the parents afford the bulk of the tuition? I doubt it. Would teachers unions pitch a bitch? Count on it. Will the parents get vouchers to help wiith the schooling? Not as long as the dems keep fighting against them. Hell, look at our own county... the powers that be want to close schools and hope private entities take the facilities and use them for something... as long as it's NOT for a school. Self serving, to be sure, but that's the way it is these days.
Quote from: jerry wagner on November 06, 2009, 10:32:01 AM
Quote from: redcliffsw on November 06, 2009, 10:09:34 AM
Local schools ought to remove themselves from the public school system that the State
and Federals oversee. Why have a desire to be a part of their socialist agenda.
Blah Blah Blah, "some ultra-rightist stuff".... anyway it isn't really constructive to the conversation. Ideas that would resolve the situation and are plausible would be helpful.
Ultra-rightist? I'm not so sure. Socialism, marxism, communism, capitalism and other ideologies are all definable, and actions in favor of one or the other are measurable. The idea of a state/government run school, health plan, etc. DO lend themselves to fitting a socialist formula.
Idea 1: Make the public schools teach good constitutional classes and civics again.
Idea 2: Return to an emphasis on a more positive approach to the US and the successes therein over the last 200 years. Yes, Ben Franklin was a whoremonger who left fatherless kids all over the east coast and Europe.... but I'm thinking we need to focus more in schools on what he did that advanced our republic at a public level.
Idea 3: Recognize that ideologies on both extremes (left and right) exist, need to be acknowledged, but don't need to be followed.
The idea of a state funded and overseen but locally ran school is not a socialist ideal, there are few steps missing before it would become socialist.
True Jerry, but if we keep letting bureaucrats and power hungry politicians 'do their thing' we'll get there eventually. Most such movements are incremental and can take years to come to fruition. Inch by inch, day by day.
Not too many years ago the idea of a teacher/professor in the US expounding the merits of communism as positive and indocrinating kids into believing communism or socialism trumps what our founders formulated would have resulted in a job termination, if not worse.
True there, Patriot. Yet the initial indoctrination was after the Civil War to teach the
Southern (and northern) children that they should never ever "rebel" against "Federal authority"
again.
Jerry Wagner- Your kind has a grip on this country, by and thru the public schools as one of the your strongholds.
Yet, from the beginning it was never meant to be.
My kind, LOL..... I am glad that I have a kind.
Quote from: redcliffsw on November 06, 2009, 11:08:21 AM
True there, Patriot. Yet the initial indoctrination was after the Civil War to teach the
Southern (and northern) children that they should never ever "rebel" against "Federal authority"
again.
Jerry Wagner- Your kind has a grip on this country, by and thru the public schools as one of the your strongholds.
Yet, from the beginning it was never meant to be.
Well essentially that is what happened. The north had to "indoctrinate/re-educate" those who lived south of the mason dixon because they were thinking independently. The north couldn't have dumb redneck southerners dictating prices on the products they were buying and brought about the war of aggression against a soveriegn nation. So once everyone was recovering from the losses, the Northerners took advantage of it and raped the economy of the South as it was just getting back on its feet. But they couldn't succeed with it without the re-education of the dumb redneck hicks down there. So they forced Government schools on the people.
Now its 150 years later, and they just about have succeeded not only with the south but the entire country.
Now you have three kinds of people. The takers which include everyone that sucks up every public resource, welfare, uses laws to protect honest folks to prevent evictions and services from being denied and then they leave town without paying the bills, then you have the independent thinkers those who managed to escape the indoctrination that was supposed to teach them to be a good citiizen that voted the right way and for the right party and that government will take care of you if you can't, they succeeded despite the odds and forge a path ahead. Then you have the folks that kinda fell in the middle there and are totally frustrated cause they can't seem to get ahead yet they keep taking from the government teat.
Whew! Sure not a lover of mankind are you?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 06, 2009, 12:34:56 PM
Whew! Sure not a lover of mankind are you?
Ohh, Does the government require that now?
Quote from: srkruzich on November 06, 2009, 12:54:35 PM
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 06, 2009, 12:34:56 PM
Whew! Sure not a lover of mankind are you?
Ohh, Does the government require that now?
We all know you love your goats and your dogs more than people. hehe
well thats true! :P
isn't this getting slightly off the subject?
Quote from: flo on November 06, 2009, 02:22:16 PM
isn't this getting slightly off the subject?
Yes, it is, but at least we are name calling and sorts!!! :-*
Quote from: okiemon on November 06, 2009, 07:08:33 AM
ADP
there have been quite a few options posted in the 2 threads concerning this issue. They won't work, not feasible?
Almost two thirds of the voters say the bond issue won't work, is not feasible.
Lets find out why the bond didn't pass and revise it and try again.
I am a stick in the mud conservative and I don't like change. Some of my problems with the bond are
Why move the bus barn?
We will save 500k a year by closing 2 schools. How much of the 500k will go to repaying the bond?
Get the cost down to 2.5 or 3 million and I'd vote yes.
What are you talking about moving the bus barn? We will still save 500k closing the two grade schools tomorrow. The yearly payment of the bond can't be determined until the bond is passes. The bond rate is not set until you actually sell the bonds. The thing you just voted down was exactly what you just described. The construction of the building was a maximum of 5.55million dollars. Our current state waiting allows for the state to pay for 29-35% of capital improvements such as school construction. Our local bond total would have been $3,385,50. Deduct from that the $360,000 for the hardening of the Fema room. That would be a total of $3,025,500.
What did you think you were voting on?
Quote from: ADP on November 06, 2009, 07:09:24 PM
Quote from: okiemon on November 06, 2009, 07:08:33 AM
ADP
there have been quite a few options posted in the 2 threads concerning this issue. They won't work, not feasible?
Almost two thirds of the voters say the bond issue won't work, is not feasible.
Lets find out why the bond didn't pass and revise it and try again.
I am a stick in the mud conservative and I don't like change. Some of my problems with the bond are
Why move the bus barn?
We will save 500k a year by closing 2 schools. How much of the 500k will go to repaying the bond?
Get the cost down to 2.5 or 3 million and I'd vote yes.
What are you talking about moving the bus barn? We will still save 500k closing the two grade schools tomorrow. The yearly payment of the bond can't be determined until the bond is passes. The bond rate is not set until you actually sell the bonds. The thing you just voted down was exactly what you just described. The construction of the building was a maximum of 5.55million dollars. Our current state waiting allows for the state to pay for 29-35% of capital imrovements such as school construction. Our local bond total would have been $3,385,50. Deduct from that the $360,000 for the hardening of the Fema room. That would be a total of $3,025,500.
What did you think you were voting on?
Go back through the threads, and all you ever posted was 5.5 million dollar bonds. I don't think you even said that your total would be 3,025,500, all that you ever posted was 5.5 mil or in the very least, you never made it a MAJOR POINT that it was only 3 million.
Also that flyer said 5.5 million not 3 million. So all people had to go on is the 5.5 million figure.
With interest it would have been close to 8.3 million dollars out of taxpayers' pockets. There was never a guarantee that the state would come through with funds, or that Fema would come through with funds, or that the state would not integrate this district with another considering our falling enrollment. You can save 500 thousand by closing the elementary schools, but it will cost 650 thousand to implement portables at the WE site. That will take all of the reserves just to do something that nobody wants. (BTW, these numbers were from the super). I still think that closing one school, and using the highschool to house the fifth and sixth grade students will take care of the problem. We have three brick and mortar buildings that are PAID FOR, and none of them are being used to capacity.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on November 06, 2009, 07:36:25 PM
With interest it would have been close to 8.3 million dollars out of taxpayers' pockets. There was never a guarantee that the state would come through with funds, or that Fema would come through with funds, or that the state would not integrate this district with another considering our falling enrollment. You can save 500 thousand by closing the elementary schools, but it will cost 650 thousand to implement portables at the WE site. That will take all of the reserves just to do something that nobody wants. (BTW, these numbers were from the super). I still think that closing one school, and using the highschool to house the fifth and sixth grade students will take care of the problem. We have three brick and mortar buildings that are PAID FOR, and none of them are being used to capacity.
Ya know.... that's probably one of the most cogent statements I've seen regarding 'what to do'.
How do you know if they are filled to capacity? Have you been to the high school to see teachers cart their materials from one location to another? Have you been to the grade schools to see the children crammed in the classroom? Just curious.
Can someone provide facts as follows:
1. Total number of students enrolled and attending school in the district.
2. Number of students enrolled in the district broken down by grade assignment (K-12).
Thanks in advance
Quoteusing the high school to house the fifth and sixth grade students will take care of the problem
There's no space there. We squeezed a small 6th grade into one classroom last year. If last year's 6th grade class had been large, there would not have been space for them. We already have teachers doubling up on classrooms.
The highschool/Jr highschool currently has 125 students, right? In 1992 there were almost 500 students, has the building shrunk? Apparently it is not being utilised properly. A classroom designed for 30 students does not have to be designated for a class of eight or nine. Of course there are teachers doubling up on classrooms, as this is not a large enough school to designate one classroom as being for one instructor. Even my college courses used a classroom for multiple subjects, instructors, and students. The student body enrollment of 345 students in West Elk school district should be ably housed in two of the three brick and mortar buildings that we already own.
Quote from: gina on November 06, 2009, 07:45:09 PM
How do you know if they are filled to capacity? Have you been to the high school to see teachers cart their materials from one location to another? Have you been to the grade schools to see the children crammed in the classroom? Just curious.
I don't understand how, if the school population is shrinking, how they could be so crammed up? How in the world did they fit them all in when the school population was more? Were there more buildings at one time than just the ones that exist now?
QuoteA classroom designed for 30 students does not have to be designated for a class of eight or nine.
But the math room is still the math room, whether there are 25 in the class, as in the past, or 15.
The science lab is still the science lab. Instead of 20 students, there are 10.
Etc.
Unless you're suggesting they teach math at one end of the room and science lab at the other end?
English in one end of the room and art in the other end of the same room?
Yes, the population has shrunk. The classes
sizes have shrunk, not the need for the individual subject classrooms.
The high school has an art room for art, photography, yearbook, etc. It is used all hours. There is a woods room used for various classes throughout the day. There is the vo-ag area used throughout the day. One gymnasium used throughout the day. The Jr. high uses all rooms on its side of the building for science, english, social studies, math, resource room. No empty rooms. The high school side uses all of the rooms on its side of the buidling for general science classes, biology, chemistry, general math, algebra, trig, calc, english freshman through senior classes, social studies, world history, government, computer programming classes, and we now have Spanish and business classes back at West Elk. The band room is used throughout the day both by jr. high and high school band, vocal, etc. I just don't see where you think we can put anyone else. All of the rooms are utilized throughout the day.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on November 06, 2009, 08:27:44 PM
The highschool/Jr highschool currently has 125 students, right? In 1992 there were almost 500 students, has the building shrunk? Apparently it is not being utilised properly. A classroom designed for 30 students does not have to be designated for a class of eight or nine. Of course there are teachers doubling up on classrooms, as this is not a large enough school to designate one classroom as being for one instructor. Even my college courses used a classroom for multiple subjects, instructors, and students. The student body enrollment of 345 students in West Elk school district should be ably housed in two of the three brick and mortar buildings that we already own.
Where are you getting these bogus numbers. If there was 500 students in 1992 we would have had a class of 83 students. I don't remember 49 fellow classmates leaving.
There are 6 class grade levels that attend school in the junior high/high school. We don't have the ability to split the rooms in half with out creating a fire hazard. We have never graduated 83 kids per year from West Elk High School. I doubt if it was rarely over 50. I know for a fact that in 1987 there was only 34 graduates. Please explain this to me 'cause I don't get it. This is not accurate. And you know it.
Oops, I forgot the resource room on the high school side as well as the home economics room. Both used throughout the day.
Just because there are less students, doesn't mean we can cut the subject matter that the students have to have to graduate. West Elk offers all of the core subjects and we are lucky to have a few teachers that can offer some advanced classes as well as college prep classes.
The class of 1988 had 32 graduates.
The class of 1986 had 36.
It is sooo very hard for this to be a positive conversation. Here's something positive, maybe motivational, to sleep on:
"Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. Don't wish for fewer problems, wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenges, wish for more wisdom."- Earl Shoaf
Quote from: Patriot on November 06, 2009, 07:49:21 PM
Can someone provide facts as follows:
1. Total number of students enrolled and attending school in the district.
2. Number of students enrolled in the district broken down by grade assignment (K-12).
Thanks in advance
I could provide this very quickly at the tip of my tongue but it would require more than my allotment of words.
Pep, my friend, that number came from you, approximately two years ago, when all this discussion began.
But it was for the entire district.
[/quote]What are you talking about moving the bus barn? We will still save 500k closing the two grade schools tomorrow. The yearly payment of the bond can't be determined until the bond is passes. The bond rate is not set until you actually sell the bonds. The thing you just voted down was exactly what you just described. The construction of the building was a maximum of 5.55million dollars. Our current state waiting allows for the state to pay for 29-35% of capital improvements such as school construction. Our local bond total would have been $3,385,50. Deduct from that the $360,000 for the hardening of the Fema room. That would be a total of $3,025,500.
What did you think you were voting on?
[/quote]
My ballot said a 5.55 million dollar bond. What did yours say?
My Ballot Said YES with a huge check mark.
Did I word the ballot? no Did you have all the information before you voted? What would have changed your vote? Did you vote to not spend 5.55million or did you vote to not drive 12 miles?
I still want to know what was ever mentioned anywhere about moving, altering, changing, or even painting the bus barn?
I don't even think we technically have a bus barn. We have two stalls that are minimally used to repair buses. A barn by definition stores something. We don't have a structure that we keep the buses in. The district office is where the bus repairs are done. No where in any plan I say was there any mention of changing the district office, bus barn, or even the parking in front of it.
We own property in Elk County and pay taxes. Auburn Washburn school district where my daughter went to school had mobils for years until they got a bond passed, of course this is a district that has 300 to 400 students per class.
Why could you not let the Severy children that live in Greenwood county go to Eureka and the Howard children that go to Severy go to Moline? You are going to lose federal money any way.That would help lower the classroom count. I guess my problem with all of this is why can't Howard,Moline and Severy get along and do the best thing for the children instead of the parents fighting with each other just because of were they are from? By the way it would be nice if you all stayed on the subject of the thread.
Jane
No I did not have all the information before I voted. I was under the impression that the state and federal money was not guaranteed. A $3,025,500 bond would have changed my vote.
Relocating bus parking and utilities was what was mention not bus barn. My mistake.
Quote from: ADP on November 06, 2009, 11:04:13 PM
Quote from: Patriot on November 06, 2009, 07:49:21 PM
Can someone provide facts as follows:
1. Total number of students enrolled and attending school in the district.
2. Number of students enrolled in the district broken down by grade assignment (K-12).
Thanks in advance
I could provide this very quickly at the tip of my tongue but it would require more than my allotment of words.
Thanks for being so helpful. If you have so damned much information and are so interested in solutions and re-educating the ignorant aong us, then why on earth would you want to withold it? I think I know, but that's a matter for another time. No matter, thanks for the help.
It is not a simple answer. It is not a two word answer. It requires more information from you. We have pre-k - 12. Did you want those numbers. If you want total head count that is one thing. If you want FTE that is another. If you want current accurate information I don't have it. The number changes as students come and go to the district. I know for a fact that the have been new students this week. I don't have the information you want. The last time I provided information I was told it was verbose. I was told to be brief in my responses. Call 620-374-2113 to get that information.
Quote from: okiemon on November 07, 2009, 07:13:14 AM
No I did not have all the information before I voted. I was under the impression that the state and federal money was not guaranteed. A $3,025,500 bond would have changed my vote.
Relocating bus parking and utilities was what was mention not bus barn. My mistake.
Okiemom we call that bait n switch in the advertising market. See it all the time when you go to buy a product for lets say 100 dollars then they tell you ohh that product is gone but we have this product at 120 dollars. Only this is in reverse. IF they got the 5 mil, then they had an extra 2.5 mil to blow.
Quote from: ADP on November 07, 2009, 09:23:02 AM
It is not a simple answer. It is not a two word answer. It requires more information from you. We have pre-k - 12. Did you want those numbers. If you want total head count that is one thing. If you want FTE that is another. If you want current accurate information I don't have it. The number changes as students come and go to the district. I know for a fact that the have been new students this week. I don't have the information you want. The last time I provided information I was told it was verbose. I was told to be brief in my responses. Call 620-374-2113 to get that information.
Quote from: ADP on November 06, 2009, 11:04:13 PM
I could provide this very quickly at the tip of my tongue but it would require more than my allotment of words.
Some of the reasons significant problems exist in the district are becoming quite clear. It would appear that some people (like you, in particular, ADP) have lots of words and very few concise answers. And when asked simple, direct questions, you deflect and avoid simple, direct answers. When others present perspectives, you immediately become defensive. Typically, this kind of attitude results in the complication of matters, emotional reactions and a divergence from the path to finding solutions. If my question was too complicated for you, I apologize. As for many of your other personal attacks? So be it. Water off a ducks back.
While I may, in fact, not accurately estimate the 'net worth' of some of the citizens in this county, I can pretty accurately estimate the attitudes of folks who incessantly infer that others are somehow ignorant, less knowledgeable, mistaken and who seem to talk down to others on a regular basis.
To wit, in on recent instance you said:
That wall e philosophy explains the cheap at any cost attitude you seem to project.
One robot one world.
I hope you have an Eve. Otherwise it will be lonely at the top of the refuse you are spewing.
Recycle Reduce ReuseExtremely rude to say the least.
What, exactly
did you have at stake in this latest bond issue that would cause you to so insensitively make so many inferences to the stupidity, inaccuracy or ignorance of others? Nevermind, don't really care. What is... is.
Quote from: Patriot on November 07, 2009, 10:02:37 AM
What, exactly did you have at stake in this latest bond issue that would cause you to so insensitively make so many inferences to the stupidity, inaccuracy or ignorance of others? Nevermind, don't really care. What is... is.
Oh thats simple enough that a blind man could see it. A project that is not put up for bid. Comments about using local contractors. The new school would need a electrician......Pep electric would be able to do that!
Quote from: srkruzich on November 07, 2009, 10:11:17 AM
Quote from: Patriot on November 07, 2009, 10:02:37 AM
What, exactly did you have at stake in this latest bond issue that would cause you to so insensitively make so many inferences to the stupidity, inaccuracy or ignorance of others? Nevermind, don't really care. What is... is.
Oh thats simple enough that a blind man could see it. A project that is not put up for bid. Comments about using local contractors. The new school would need a electrician......Pep electric would be able to do that!
Where and when did the project not be put up for bid? The construction manager approach to building construction is very straight forward, legal, ethical, and a good option for limited budgets. We interviewed architectural firms. The school board chose WDM. We interviewed and took proposals from seven construction general managers. They each Conco, Crossland, Eby, Hutton, Johnson, Simpson, and Universal were interested in this project. The school board choose one of them to be the Construction Manager. If the bond would have passed the winning company Hutton Construction at $5,550,000, would have put together bid packages to let out for general bid. All subcontractors would have been selected out of that bid presentation. That did not happen, will not happen now as the bond failed.
I have no crew. We were looking at a 10 month build window. I would have not even attempted to bid a project this size with no manpower. The school already has an electrician. It is not me working there. There is no impropriety on my part.
I really assume you have a motive to be so against a central campus.
I really like the pixar movie Wall-e.
Recycle Reduce Reuse
If the Public Infomation Committee would have promoted the bond as a 3 million dollar project, the vote no's would have turned it around saying that "real" 5.5 million was not being properly represented. When the PIC committee tried to explain that modular buildings were plan B, they were told that was a threat.
Did the board vote on this plan B? Or was it just discussed as a probable option?.... Just curious, getting conflicting information ???
There has not been a vote. The board wanted to wait to see if Plan A (the bond) would pass before they made a decision about Plan B (closing both grade schools and having modulars).
Thank You, That was my original understanding also.... was just afraid I'd missed something
Okay to maintain Moline and Severy as Elementary Schools and Howard as the high school location, we will have to start cutting programs.... where do we start.... Vo Ag Teacher and 1 para (lose FFA)...... Woods Teacher.....(plus his wife (secretary) would probably leave).... Arts teacher (& loss of a janitor positition (husband/wife).... High school music teacher(still do not have a grade school music teacher).... If lose high school music probably lose her husband who also teaches at the high school..... Home Ec (or whatever they call it now).... also lose FCCLA.... Business teacher (just recently added.... no plays, webpage design, etc)..... spanish teacher.....(Why in the world would we need to teach that subject!)..... Let's be conservative.... $30,000 for each teaching position.... so we eliminate these positions so that we can keep two elementary schools open.... For all of you Reading, writing and arithmetic type people.... are none of these programs useful/necessary for our kids, ESPECIALLY those that are not college bound!....So those 7 teaching positions - maybe save us $210,000.... Most likely those people will have to leave the community to find other employment.... Those skills they teach.... life skills - teaching some of these kids skills so that they can get a job out of high school without another degree.... do we give up these programs.... to keep 2 buildings open.... we sacrifice our kids' education to hang on to a lifestyle that was.... Please these are the decisions that our board is now faced with....So let's look at the buildings vs education in another way!
Hope we don't lose the math teacher. At $30,000. for each postition listed that total would be $300,000. not $210,000. But that is for each position listed. If you only apply the $30,000. to teaching positions then the total is $240,000.
Has the board considered asking the teachers to take a cut in pay? Or have the parents pay for these programs? Just out of curiosity why would there be no plays if the Business teacher was not there?
QuoteJust out of curiosity why would there be no plays if the Business teacher was not there?
This year the new business teacher is the play director.
For the last couple of years, the play directors were the computer teacher and the band director.
It's a supplemental position, an add-on to a teacher's contract.
I don't remember any community volunteers for that position, or for assisting with the play.
There are quite a few financial supporters; they pay for some of the cost (programs, production rights, costumes, sets).
You know unfortunately as hard as times are getting and believe me they haven't gotten as bad as they are going to get, your going to be lucky to just keep the basics. Everyone, including businesses are cutting out the extras just to survive, so is the taxpayer.
Quote from: Varmit on November 08, 2009, 07:09:17 AM
Has the board considered asking the teachers to take a cut in pay?
We already have some of the lowest paid teachers in the state. I'm amazed they stay at all given the recent show of support for our school system.
Good news we get to shrink our school budget between $157,000 and $214,000. Better fire up those ovens 'cause that is alot of bake sale goods. OH. THIS is just this year.
This spring we are looking at a budget shortfall of $214,000 to $650,000.
I have a plan for this:
If we make $9 per doz tacos. We will only have to sell 72,222. That would only be 344 per grade school student. So every voter only needs to purchase 75 dozen. That is not too much to ask just 1 1/2 Dozen tacos a week. That is only 2 1/2 tacos per day. Surely you can manage that. Then our problems are over.
Oh.... It gets better next year. Only 2-3% drop. SO there is hope.
Quote from: ADP on November 09, 2009, 09:47:06 PM
Good news we get to shrink our school budget between $157,000 and $214,000. Better fire up those ovens 'cause that is alot of bake sale goods. OH. THIS is just this year.
This spring we are looking at a budget shortfall of $214,000 to $650,000.
I have a plan for this:
If we make $9 per doz tacos. We will only have to sell 72,222. That would only be 344 per grade school student. So every voter only needs to purchase 75 dozen. That is not too much to ask just 1 1/2 Dozen tacos a week. That is only 2 1/2 tacos per day. Surely you can manage that. Then our problems are over.
Oh.... It gets better next year. Only 2-3% drop. SO there is hope.
And the point here is what exactly?
Shrinking budgets?...Really?...in case you haven't noticed the economy lately, everyone is having to cut back, why should the schools be any different?
Quote from: Varmit on November 08, 2009, 07:09:17 AM
Hope we don't lose the math teacher. At $30,000. for each position listed that total would be $300,000. not $210,000.
Let's assume we use Grenola math. $650,000 divided by $30,000 for each teacher equals 22 teachers.
-21.667 to be exact.
What the kind of school system can you run with no teachers? Who cares what your views on public schooling or private with no teachers you have no school. What else is going to make that big of an impact.
Get rid of field trips. Get rid of athletics. Get rid of supplementals. OK that is about 50k.
WHAT else must go? Busing? Where is the big thinking outside the box?
We have been looking at this for 4 years, it should have been looked at for the last twenty but no one wanted to talk about it. We have had open public meetings for the last two years with members of the communities Severy, Moline, and Howard. All meetings have been open with an invitation to anyone to attend. If you live in a spider cave or tunnel you might have not heard of this process but it has been going on for a very long time. Elk county is not that big. IF some one farts the other side of the county smells it. If some unnamed Patriot doesn't feel patriotic enough to register to vote before being told to, what kind of patriot are you. You don't register to vote for a cause. You register to vote when you turn eighteen. Then you re-register every time you move. Period. We have old dogs griping about spending tax money on a flyer and an apostate saying they should have sent two earlier in the year. Sorry we had to wait on a cheap printer instead of spending tax money on a high dollar glossy from Kinkos.
I want to know what you armchair quarterbacks have come up with in the last week that is going to make this much impact. You sit on the sidelines in anonymity and complain about the way every thing has been handled. So come on show me that superior intellect you are so proud of. Use the big words.
Every bit of information about any public school can be asked for by anyone. Most of it is available on line at the KDE website. If you think my dissemination of information is biased and half truths then look the crap up your self. You can type can't you?
If you are too dense, thick headed, or just too stubborn to get my point and I will spell it out for you exactly:
Where do we save $500,000 right now?
Just to chime in, people keep saying things along the lines of "so what, everyone is cutting back"
Thats not really true. The economy here in northern california is starting to turn around. I hear from friends in other parts of the country that its picking up there too. Theres hope!!
Quote from: Anmar on November 10, 2009, 01:39:09 AM
Just to chime in, people keep saying things along the lines of "so what, everyone is cutting back"
Thats not really true. The economy here in northern california is starting to turn around. I hear from friends in other parts of the country that its picking up there too. Theres hope!!
California is bankrupt, maybe industry is picking back up maybe not. But it sure isn't picking up in other major cities. Atlanta is total devestation right now. By the way no jobs are being listed on the job boards it appears KC, chicago, Dallas are all taking a nosedive too. There is no recovery going on on a national level. Sorry but thats a myth right now and you haven't even factored in the hyper inflation that is happening. I have seen groceries rise 60 dollars in the last three months. Its fixing to hit the fan when investors start putting their money back into stocks and all and none of us are going to be able to afford anything when that happens.
Round here, there are no jobs. Along with the inflation, the taxation, the coming taxation, where are people supposed to come up with more money for schools. You gotta take care of your family first, then worry about things like schools. If the taxpayer is cutting back then so should the goverment. Period!
Quote from: ADP on November 10, 2009, 12:24:56 AM
...
If some unnamed Patriot doesn't feel patriotic enough to register to vote before being told to, what kind of patriot are you. You don't register to vote for a cause. You register to vote when you turn eighteen. Then you re-register every time you move. Period. We have old dogs griping about spending tax money on a flyer and an apostate saying they should have sent two earlier in the year. Sorry we had to wait on a cheap printer instead of spending tax money on a high dollar glossy from Kinkos.
I want to know what you armchair quarterbacks have come up with in the last week that is going to make this much impact. You sit on the sidelines in anonymity and complain about the way every thing has been handled. So come on show me that superior intellect you are so proud of. Use the big words.
Every bit of information about any public school can be asked for by anyone. Most of it is available on line at the KDE website. If you think my dissemination of information is biased and half truths then look the crap up your self. You can type can't you?
If you are too dense, thick headed, or just too stubborn to get my point and I will spell it out for you exactly:
Where do we save $500,000 right now?
Goodness, gracious! Feel better now?
As for this Patriot (nice shot, btw), I am registered to vote, have been for ages... and I do vote regularly. Any earlier reference I made to notices sent out after the voter registration deadline was to illustrate poor management, and it was not a complaint that I wasn't able to register in time to vote. Sorry that wasn't clear to you.
As for your little taco rant in re your earlier post last night... that just reinforces previous character observations.
Now, since your diatribes seem to infer that those who voted and/or spoke against the bond are somehow responsible for the budget shortfalls, how about you tell the whole story! Those shortfalls are the direct result of reductions in funding from state and federal subsidies! They have NOTHING to do with the bond or a new elementary school on the West Elk High School campus. The cuts are the result of budgetary cuts outside Elk County. Anybody with half a brain, a newspaper, and some sense of history has known for months that top end budgetary cuts were coming. As were freezes in Social Security increases, service reductions, increased unemployment and higher taxes in other arenas. Maybe, just maybe, the 'old dogs' have acquired some sense of these things over their years.
Where does the district save $500,000 right now? I really can't say. Looks like those who are on the payroll and in elected offices (voluntarily in the kitchen, so to speak) have some serious work to do and some really hard decisions to make. Decisions that I surely don't envy them having to make. I'm sure the taxpayers and voters are watching with interest. Oh, and before you attack that last statement..... remember that's how it works in a representative republic. It's not up to the voters to 'make those choices'... it's up to the voters to evaluate the management skills and actions of those they elected to make those choices. And the 'dogs', both old and new, as citizens have every right to bitch all they want (see: US Constitution, Amendment I).
You did make one observation that's absolutely correct. This should have been dealt with years ago!
The proverb goes like this, "A wise man sees trouble ahead and maketh preparations."
Quote from: Patriot on November 10, 2009, 08:06:29 AM
Where does the district save $500,000 right now? I really can't say. Looks like those who are on the payroll and in elected offices (voluntarily in the kitchen, so to speak) have some serious work to do and some really hard decisions to make. Decisions that I surely don't envy them having to make. I'm sure the taxpayers and voters are watching with interest. Oh, and before you attack that last statement..... remember that's how it works in a representative republic. It's not up to the voters to 'make those choices'... it's up to the voters to evaluate the management skills and actions of those they elected to make those choices. And the 'dogs', both old and new, as citizens have every right to bitch all they want (see: US Constitution, Amendment I).
You did make one observation that's absolutely correct. This should have been dealt with years ago!
The proverb goes like this, "A wise man sees trouble ahead and maketh preparations."
Good advice. I think that asking people to cough up more money for anything, by raising taxes is morally and ethically wrong when it would put people out of their homes. There is not such a need for services that would warrant someone losing their home. Not a thing in this world is worth that. Time for government across the board to go on a starvation diet!
Quote from: Anmar on November 10, 2009, 01:39:09 AM
Just to chime in, people keep saying things along the lines of "so what, everyone is cutting back"
Thats not really true. The economy here in northern california is starting to turn around. I hear from friends in other parts of the country that its picking up there too. Theres hope!!
Ok, this is just too easy, Anmar. "... here in northern california ..."
So you are truely a gift from the Golden State! And the northern part, no less.
Does that make you our.... San Francisco Treat? ;D
lol, well, I'm more of an Oakland guy myself.
Could you at least do an Alumni fund drive to have the high school roof repaired?
You could, Diane, but the last time I check on the price of Alumni, the price was just horrible.
Of course, some of them "think" they're worth a fortune, but then .....
YOU are gonna get it! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Diane - Great idea on the Alumni - too bad there is not a West Elk Alumni Association - since it has only been around since the 70s... now there is still a Howard Alumni, Moline Alumni, Severy Alumni, Elk Falls Alumni, Busby Alumni, Grenola Alumni, Longton Alumni - shoot might even be a Fiat & Cave Spring Alumni if you dig far enough....
My ramblings won't mean too much since I'm not a resident of Elk County anymore, but I think Liz's last point says a lot about my home county. I don't know why we can't get together and be one County. I used to think 90% of the County had intentions to make it the best it can be but the last vote on the school was the last straw that leads me down a different thought process. Whether you thought it was a 5.5mln bond or a 3.5mln bond is just window dressing for the real reasons that it was voted down. Face it the bottom line is Elk County as a whole does not want to change, there is no desire to move into the next century, and you know that's OK, the people have spoken. Elections have consequences as we can see by electing a very liberal, socialistic President. But that is what the electoral and populus of the US voted in. This is the same in Elk County. We are going to get health care, large bailouts, and carbon taxation all shoved down our throats because those are the people we voted into office. On the same hand, Elk County is going to stay in isolation from the rest of the world, keep losing population, keep losing main street business, and foremost with this election lose a once very good academic school system. But, that is what they always vote for and deep down that is what most of the residents want. This mentality started a long time ago, maybe 30 to 40 years ago. I can remember while growing up that various industries tried to come into the County but the mentality was, WE DONT' NEED THEM, THEY'LL USE TOO MUCH OF OUR WATER, IT MIGHT KILL OUR CATTLE INDUSTRY, ETC. My humble advice to those age 40 years and less, consider your opportunities given this mentality and then compare the pros and cons of living somewhere else. Elk County has very good, hard-working people in it but they want to stay in the 1950's and that's OK, hopefully there is enough money to be made from cattle ranching and rich people hunting!!
Rick, the statement that I am about to type, will sound very harsh, I am sure---but, your post about our county, certainly would do nothing to encourage people to move here. We need encouragement to be put forth, NOT discouragement.
Um, Um, Um....I'm on dangerous ground I know, but I just have to say, it would be nice to change the article on the home page.. The article on your water is old now and smelly water won't encourage people to come there either.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on November 04, 2009, 12:12:26 PM
LadyD, my ballot said that the vote was whether or not to accept a bond to construct a new school at Howard, it did not say any of that other stuff. I too have heard all these threats from several people, but those issues were not on the ballot were they?
I Know it must be confusing to some that dont attend the information meetings and board meeting and SPECIAL board meetings. There has been several things discussed and for several years. The construction of a new building was the last issue at hand. The one before that was being at one central location as we have to close both schools because of the lack of funding and high cost of mantenance of both buildings. Informed Voters understood if you voted yes, we would be building a new building, and voting no meant we wouldnt spend 5.5 million on a new building, but put pods, trailers or what ever at the high school. If they wanted to know if you wanted to centralize our district they would have used that question on the ballot.
Quote from: rickperk on November 11, 2009, 09:24:11 PM
My ramblings won't mean too much since I'm not a resident of Elk County anymore, but I think Liz's last point says a lot about my home county. I don't know why we can't get together and be one County. I used to think 90% of the County had intentions to make it the best it can be but the last vote on the school was the last straw that leads me down a different thought process. Whether you thought it was a 5.5mln bond or a 3.5mln bond is just window dressing for the real reasons that it was voted down. Face it the bottom line is Elk County as a whole does not want to change, there is no desire to move into the next century, and you know that's OK, the people have spoken. Elections have consequences as we can see by electing a very liberal, socialistic President. But that is what the electoral and populus of the US voted in. This is the same in Elk County. We are going to get health care, large bailouts, and carbon taxation all shoved down our throats because those are the people we voted into office. On the same hand, Elk County is going to stay in isolation from the rest of the world, keep losing population, keep losing main street business, and foremost with this election lose a once very good academic school system. But, that is what they always vote for and deep down that is what most of the residents want. This mentality started a long time ago, maybe 30 to 40 years ago. I can remember while growing up that various industries tried to come into the County but the mentality was, WE DONT' NEED THEM, THEY'LL USE TOO MUCH OF OUR WATER, IT MIGHT KILL OUR CATTLE INDUSTRY, ETC. My humble advice to those age 40 years and less, consider your opportunities given this mentality and then compare the pros and cons of living somewhere else. Elk County has very good, hard-working people in it but they want to stay in the 1950's and that's OK, hopefully there is enough money to be made from cattle ranching and rich people hunting!!
WOW! Very well said.
[quote author=ladyD I Know it must be confusing to some that dont attend the information meetings and board meeting and SPECIAL board meetings. There has been several things discussed and for several years. The construction of a new building was the last issue at hand. The one before that was being at one central location as we have to close both schools because of the lack of funding and high cost of mantenance of both buildings. Informed Voters understood if you voted yes, we would be building a new building, and voting no meant we wouldnt spend 5.5 million on a new building, but put pods, trailers or what ever at the high school. If they wanted to know if you wanted to centralize our district they would have used that question on the ballot.
Understood? I don't think so. >:( The board has not voted to close both elementarys and move portables into Howard Kansas. I know that the superintendant has said that; not only to several community groups he spoke with, but to a Kake TV reporter. He says it is a done deal, but at least one board member has stated just this week that this is NOT a done deal, that the board has not voted to do that. This is an embarrassment for our district to have a superintendant telling a reporter something that was not true. You can assume anything you want LadyD; you can assume that I am old and uninformed, that I am stupid, but you cannot assume that I will accept that this superintendant is not overstepping his place.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on November 13, 2009, 01:37:34 PM
Understood? I don't think so. >:( The board has not voted to close both elementarys and move portables into Howard Kansas. I know that the superintendant has said that; not only to several community groups he spoke with, but to a Kake TV reporter. He says it is a done deal, but at least one board member has stated just this week that this is NOT a done deal, that the board has not voted to do that. This is an embarrassment for our district to have a superintendant telling a reporter something that was not true. You can assume anything you want LadyD; you can assume that I am old and uninformed, that I am stupid, but you cannot assume that I will accept that this superintendant is not overstepping his place.
Maybe the board needs to reel him in a bit. Especially, if it appears his motives for talking to the press are just to advance or mold public opinion to some kind of personal agenda. He
does still work for the board, no? And, of course, at taxpayer expense.
Agreed!
QuoteUnderstood? I don't think so. Angry The board has not voted to close both elementarys and move portables into Howard Kansas. I know that the superintendant has said that; not only to several community groups he spoke with, but to a Kake TV reporter. He says it is a done deal, but at least one board member has stated just this week that this is NOT a done deal, that the board has not voted to do that. This is an embarrassment for our district to have a superintendant telling a reporter something that was not true. You can assume anything you want LadyD; you can assume that I am old and uninformed, that I am stupid, but you cannot assume that I will accept that this superintendant is not overstepping his place.
At the October board meeting, the Superintendent told the board he was being asked what happens if the bond issue failed. The board said they were committed to a central campus for all students and that he could share that information. It was a 5-2 consensus, not an official vote.
Quote from: Mom70x7 on November 13, 2009, 04:04:13 PM
At the October board meeting, the Superintendent told the board he was being asked what happens if the bond issue failed. The board said they were committed to a central campus for all students and that he could share that information. It was a 5-2 consensus, not an official vote.
Well said... I think people are putting some words into the Mr. Reece's mouth... he spoke off camera, and it's not really fair to assume what was said to Deb Farris.. However, the clock is ticking, and like it or not, both grade schools will soon be closed. Maybe not next year, but certainly within the next 2 years or so.
The KAKE story should not have run until after the board voted to begin making the move, but the fact remains that the outlook is not good for Severy and Moline grade schools.... The KAKE story is probably very accurate - it just ran a month or too before it should have.
And I'm afraid Rick Perkins is right - there are too many people who resist change. Unfortunately towns (like people) don't stand still. They either move forwards and grow/improve, or they move backwards. My two cents.
The high school gym has had the same roof leak in the same place next to the same Heating unit since it was constructed. I remember hitting the bucket that was tied to the ceiling while playing dodge ball and getting wet back in the eighties. The bucket is still tied up there but the leak has migrated 4 inches to the left causing a slow drip exactly 4 inches from where it dripped into the bucket in the eighties. It has served its purpose in its current position but now we need to change the entire scope of the operation.
I think all we need to do is move the bucket.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Just move the bucket? Not fix the leak? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: MarkHall on November 13, 2009, 08:57:42 PM
Well said... I think people are putting some words into the Mr. Reece's mouth... he spoke off camera, and it's not really fair to assume what was said to Deb Farris.. However, the clock is ticking, and like it or not, both grade schools will soon be closed. Maybe not next year, but certainly within the next 2 years or so.
The KAKE story should not have run until after the board voted to begin making the move, but the fact remains that the outlook is not good for Severy and Moline grade schools.... The KAKE story is probably very accurate - it just ran a month or too before it should have.
And I'm afraid Rick Perkins is right - there are too many people who resist change. Unfortunately towns (like people) don't stand still. They either move forwards and grow/improve, or they move backwards. My two cents.
Very well said Mark and I think that both you and Rick are right on the money with that analysis.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 17, 2009, 08:52:53 AM
Just move the bucket? Not fix the leak? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
The precedent as put forth by the voters states that unneeded unwanted acts of fiduciary irresponsibility will not be tolerated appreciated or allowed. We are a band aid society. We can move the bucket for less money than fixing a leak that has been that way for over thirty years so that is what we will do. We have to save current money. We could not risk jumping over a shiny new gold dollar to save two old pennies.
Understood.... :-X
Quote from: Marcia Moore on January 22, 2010, 09:26:42 PM
Why spend money unnecessarily on modulars with "hopes" the state might pay the district back someday? Times are tough now for everyone. We do not need our taxes raised. Lets make do with what we already have. I realize that sooner or later both Moline and Severy will lose their schools. But if we could just wait it out a little bit - two or three years or so - maybe with the dwindling enrollment the current building at Howard will then hold all the students. Sure there would need to be a lot of adjustments made to the current building, but at least the patrons would not be faced with a huge tax increase.
It costs less to provide and maintain utilities to a building made in this century. What tax increases are you talking about? Nothing has been done to change the current taxes since last summer when we had to raise the LOB to the max. The voters told the district they were not willing to finance a bond for a new structure so there is no increase in tax caused by the installation of classrooms. We can't lower the LOB untill we become more efficient by curbing expenses not capitol outlay. It is wiser use of the funds to make the entire district viable for a long period of time than to prop up a single building inside that district.
I don't get the math. If you close one school you save $250,000. If you close the other school you save $250,000. We need to cut over $400,000. Where is the other $150,000 - $250,000 coming from?
Using capitol funds to pay salaries sounds like a very stupid proposal. Spend your savings now so you are forced to do no fund warrants in the future. Lower the wages of the teachers from the lowest in the area to what poverty? RIF only works where there is a force to reduce.
What if we just leased the classrooms needed? It would not tie up capitol funds for years and years. It would cost twice as much in the long run but then we have to think in the now.
Okay, now I know that a bond issue for a new school cannot be done until the LOB has been maxed out. Guess what----- The In Crown saw to it that the LOB got maxed out right away; ipsoso facto, bond issue people! No hearings from the communities involved, just a few meetings of The In Crowd going through the motions. Phooey! This mess stunk from the beginning and it still stinks!
Quote from: sixdogsmom on January 23, 2010, 04:28:05 PM
Okay, now I know that a bond issue for a new school cannot be done until the LOB has been maxed out. Guess what----- The In Crown saw to it that the LOB got maxed out right away; ipsoso facto, bond issue people! No hearings from the communities involved, just a few meetings of The In Crowd going through the motions. Phooey! This mess stunk from the beginning and it still stinks!
Who is in the "The In Crowd"? The LOB was maxed out because the school board budget didn't have enough money to keep both the grade schools open and pay the bills with out it. The local part of the budget is about 21%. So the state controls the 79% that has been shrinking for the decade. Compound that problem with the decline in enrollment that has not been address by lowering the budget. We have been wasting money keeping two facilities open that has led us to have to close them now.
The situation stinks because the previous three school boards knew the student numbers were dwindling but failed to do anything about it when we had other financial options to curb it. There has been meetings in all three communities since we started this process. All communities were represented in all aspects of the bond and any facilities discussions. Every meeting and discussion has been posted and open for the public to attend and be a part of the discussion. There was a public hearing about the closing of the buildings only 10 people spoke. The meeting was scheduled for 2 hours but was completed in 45 minutes with no one with out the opportunity to speak.
Also, Capital Outlay can not be spent "legally" for salaries
I have taught a self-contained elementary classroom in a modular/portable, and guess what? We all got used to it, the kids learned and were very successful scholastically, and life was good! Learning can take place wherever the right instruction is offered. Kids are so much more flexible than we give them credit for. I hope the adult population of this district will put their differences aside and consider what is the most important factor in this issue--the education and future success of each child in the USD 282 school system!!!
Patryn you said it!! But that is not the case. Just because you live in Howard doesn't mean that you want to see the schools close. But I truly believe that is in the best interest of the kids and also the staff. Yes some will lose jobs, but chances are that they might get rehired for the district doing a different position. Because Para Educators are always coming and going.
This isn't something that just happened over night. It has been happening for some time now. The budget just isn't the same that we used to have. Plus, its a cut from state. If you don't know it now, Kansas just doesn't have the money.
Plus, I would think that it would be worse if they picked one school over the other. They had people in from out of district, to give us help on which one to close and there were positives and negatives to both schools. And also no real conclusion. I think that they are doing the best posible to keep the cuts from the students. And as a parent in this district, I am glad for that!!
My children are doing really well in both schools. I have 2 in one and 1 in another. They have adapted to the change just fine. Probably better then I did at first. So, its got to be done. Just wish people would see the big picture, not the negative part.
Obviously, modulars should always be considered a temporary measure. But our kids attended classes in modulars in Caney and loved them. They actually thought they were special kids because they enjoyed outdoor classrooms.
I was talking to Ashley ( age eight) last week about the school etc...
I ask if she liked being in Severy this year and she loves it.. She is an excellent student and makes good grades.. I then brought up the subject "How do you feel about not being in Severy school next year.."
She replied all bright and chipper" I'll be going to Howard next year Mee -Ma.. We'll be in a lot of little trailers cause I think they have to close our schools down.. But it will be ok.. I think it will be fun..and cozy.. "
hahaha ha...so I think that the kids will respond well to whatever changes has to be made and implemented as long as the "Parents" keep the topic on a positive level around them..
* Parents + Positive...being the key words here* :)
You got it Teresa! Kids usually look for the positive.......unless they have heard the negative at home. I think they look forward to "new" things.
;D
Teresa, you make good sense when you're back in Elk County.
That higher altitude does something to her "calm, timid" demeanor.
hahahaa... people who don't see me on facebook STILL think I am timid and calm.. LOL
;D ;D ;D