I am looking at all the different kinds of energy that would help us and really favor the wind farms.
What do you think.
I kind of want to get away from politics for a bit and even the smoking issue....so will start this topic.
Let er rip!!!!
Judy, personally I perfer the wind farms, because I like to watch them. I find their precision soothing. Coal plants have a lot of negative publicity, but don't really know a lot about them. One thing that does bother me, tho, is Kansas produces all this energy and it goes to other states. Why don't we keep it here?
I think it's going to have to be some of all of it, depending what any given area has available. Wind, water, tidal, solar, oil, oil shale, wood, coal, gasses, geothermal, steam, nuclear, hydrogen, shanks mare, animal, and peddle power, as well as some things that haven't been invented yet. They'll soon have heat pumps efficient enough to be used without back up in more areas. It's a fascinating thing to watch develop. Like so much, where it goes is profit driven.
wellllllllllllllll, in a perfect world........................................ ;)
I am totally for the wind power!! Anything that helps our environment, I am completely for. I know that when Beaumont area was getting the windmills, some people were against it. They thought they would be noisy and ugly. I've been out to see them. I found it to be quiet. And to me, they looked like giants protecting the prairie. My son said they remind him of ships on an ocean.
I agree! Also, wonder why it was not used long before now. With our wind-what a savings!
We are having a big hassle over an off shore wind farm right now. Blue Water Wind put in a proposal and certain groups are up in arms. Birds will die, it will hurt tourist business, it's too expensive, some rates will go up. Hurricanes will destroy them. Only Delmarva Power customers will be affected, not anyone else. (City of Newark has it's own coop. and we pay to them ..cheaper.) I'm all for the wind farm myself. We can use tidal energy too, if we would.
I'm definitely for the wind farms, too. I am like Flo, don't know to much about the coal mines, but sure that they do alot of polluting. But does anyone know why we don't benefit from the wind farm at Beautmont?? I've heard that the power goes to another state. Why????
We live in the country so we have Caney Valley Electric. It's a rural coop, and it's not cheaper than Westar. We have, at our house, started to use energy effecient light bulbs which have cut alot of the price. And our appliances are newer which helps, but still. I would love the benefit from the wind farms. ;) ;) ;)
There are no easy solutions to our energy problems, but solar and wind make the most sense to me. I'd like to see our R&D people get the funding needed to test new products and processes. These two resources are basically free to harness, it's just so expensive to get the power where it needs to go. We will need to make changes to our infrastructure, and of course, that costs money.
One thing I do not believe is a good solution is spending more time and money on coal-fired plants. I hate to admit I learned anything in my now-ending geology course at WSU, but we did spend a great deal of time discussing pros and cons of coal power. In my opinion, the negatives far outweigh the benefits. For instance, the coal has to be mined and transported to the power plant (fuel burned to move fuel ... I understand Wyoming is the state where much of the coal for western states is being mined). Also of concern is the amount of water needed to operate a coal-fired plant...a resource that is becoming far too scarce in western states. Sulfuric acid, the cause of acid rain that kills plants and poisons surface water, also is a problem. While there may be EPA standards followed in the US, other countries may not have strict enforcement. Once the pollutants are in the air, soil and water, they eventually cause problems in other parts of the world.
There are far better ways to generate electricity that cause far less damage to our environment. I also think more people would be willing to try solar or wind power if there were tax credits or other financial incentives to offset the initial costs.
I do think the wind turbines are lovely to watch and, at least in my eyes, have not diminished the beauty of the Flint Hills in any way.
I said I was not going to post anything further on any "ARGUABLE" subjects but I thought this was very interesting news article that ties in with this subject.
Frank
Wind Can Supply 20% of U.S. Electricity, Report Says
By Steven Mufson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 13, 2008; D07
The Energy Department said yesterday that the United States has the ability to meet 20 percent of its electricity-generation needs with wind by 2030, enough to displace 50 percent of natural gas consumption and 18 percent of coal consumption.
But in a report drawn up by its national laboratories, the department said that meeting the target would require more improvements in turbine technology, cost reductions, new transmission lines, an expansion of the wind industry and a fivefold increase in the pace of wind-turbine installation.
The report said a boost in wind capacity to 20 percent of electricity generation "could potentially defer the need to build some new coal capacity, avoiding or postponing the associated carbon emissions." The department said that expanding the use of wind to generate power could avert a need for more than 80 gigawatts of new coal-fired generating capacity; its current projections say that new coal-fired plants capable of producing about 140 gigawatts of power could be built by 2030 to meet rising demand.
The report noted that a big expansion of wind-power generation would also cut the amount of water used by the electricity industry by 17 percent by 2030.
The report said that, under "optimistic assumptions," expanding wind generation to meet 20 percent of U.S. electricity needs by 2030 would cost nearly $197 billion, but it said that most of that would be offset by nearly $155 billion in lower fuel expenditures. There would be, it said, other offsetting positive effects.
Congress has mandated that incandescent light bulbs be twenty-five percent more efficient by 2012.
If manufacturers cannot produce, we will be using those CFLs.
We have tried them but they are not good for a number of applications.
(Hey, there Frank...that was no argument, that was a good healthy debate. Nobody was angry, it was just a great exchange of different ideas. At least I thought so.)
We have very few incandescent bulbs left here at our house, maybe one or two in lamps that are rarely used. We had a program several months ago, when we were all able to get a couple of free CFLs at our library. Newark got a grant somewhere.
Thirty years or so-- ago, a family outside of Andover supplied their house with electricity through a electric generator connected to a water wheel and a small windmill. Extra electricity sold back to the electric company. It was attractive and soothing. This was a large family so not sure it supplied all their needs but certainly helped.
I think what I was wondering is if the utilites are dragging their feet about this idea.
I know the average person can't have his/her own wind farm......but, if there is a co-op like in grain, would the electric and gas company's and the people who get income from it, keep it from happening.
I am for all natural energy........just get confused when the "powers that be" make all the decisions and TELL us what is going to be.
Just thinking outloud......and I know I can't do anything about it............but............who can and will?
Those that thought they were a bad thing was because they weren't going to be on their land and they weren't getting the income. My guess is the electricity is going to other states because they make more money by crossing the state lines. The tax that is.
The only thing that bothers me is that KS is not benefitting from lower electricity prices for having either coal or wind in the area. In CO (can't remember exactly where), the wind farm "gave" one tower to the local town to use the electricity. Any excess electricty that the town doesn't use, they get "reimbursed" for.
uh, didn't jimmy irvin build his own wind generator out of junk like 15 20 years ago and everybody laughed at him?? just go to show ya lol
;D ;D ;D yes he did, I'd forgotten about that.
It's been mentioned a few times that a new wind farm is being constructed in the western part of Elk County. I'm not very knowledgeable about its progress, who owns the ground, who is building it, etc.
But I did happen to read this very short piece in the Kansas Traveler newspaper, that reported:
"Jetmore, in Hodgeman County ... has decided to become the first town in the state to tap this energy source to feed directly into the city's power grid and help to stabilize power costs for the citizens of Jetmore (pop. 900)."
For more information, it gives a phone number 620-357-8831 and email address hodgeman1@fairpoint.net
It would be awesome if more small towns, like those in Elk County, would tap into nearby wind farms to supply electricity at a reduced cost and protects the environment at the same time. Is this something the county could investigate?
That would be hard to tap into the Howard grid since it is not owned by Howard. Yes,Westar builds, built, and is building wind farms but the majority of the power comes from either Wolf Creek or coal or Nat gas plants around the state. I don't know how a for profit utility would buy more expensive green power if its bottom line say otherwise.
They answer to their stockholders not their customers. If you don't believe me just try to ask them a question. The simplest question has very complex answers. Unless you speak computer receptionest. Press 1 for english, press 3 for wind power...
I think there is more 24/7 365 energy in coal than wind until there is wind farms across the entire globe to tap into that source consistantly.
If there is no wind there is no power. Solar has the same drawback. No light no power. Storage is the biggest hurtle for the energy of the future. How to save the power until we need it is more critical that where it comes from. Superconductors can provide cheaper energy transportation costs but we have to use it as we make it.
We need to build a better battery. Like pumping water up a hill to use when the water level is low.
Alas, if we had enough water to pump uphill. . . .
In California there are windfarms that are used to pump water uphill and stored during "off peak" times, so that the same water can be released through hydroelectric generators during the highest peak times, when power is worth as much as 50 times more.
How can we court a value added elk county commody using industry with out viable water for them to make said widgets. We have been converting gas powered oil wells to electric for years. Why not go one step further convert the wind to energy to pump the natural gas or oil into a pipeline. Pump the natural gas into a storage field until there is no wind and then use the stored gas. Is the current value of the raw material greater that the future value of the material plus the cost of the storage. Sounds like commody hedging or farming 101. Penny Swanson a little help here.... Is it cheaper to store energy for future use hoping the price will go up or use the energy now to lower the current price by having more available?
Or, if we moved to a hydrogen society, then we could use the electricity from the wind farms to split water into oxygen and hydrogen. But would we be any more efficient than just taking the wind electricity to power electric motors instead of hydrogen engines?
Quote from: Flintauqua on July 30, 2008, 09:39:29 PM
Or, if we moved to a hydrogen society, then we could use the electricity from the wind farms to split water into oxygen and hydrogen. But would we be any more efficient than just taking the wind electrity to power electric motors instead of hydrogen engines?
Your still going to need water to produce hydrogen ;)
Plus hydrogen is not a viable solution to produce and store. Produce hydrogen on demand is the best way to do it.
Once it is produced, use it immediately and you don't have to spend a fortune in storage units.
I want to put a HHO in my pickup as soon as i can get the stuff to make one.
Solar technology is also improving quickly also, you could use that for some things too.
2 nights ago on KWCH, they had the news story about T. Boone Pickens and his support for wind energy. So, last night, they had to do their "other side" news story and interviewed some guy up at Beaumont who said that all the wind towers are going to suck the wind right out of the world. And they will cause climate changes. And they will cause the demise of the prairie chicken.
So, guess we'll have to cut down all the trees in the world, b/c they block more wind than the wind towers. And we'll have to ground all airplanes b/c they are causing more wind. And we'll have to kill all the coyotes so they don't eat any more prairie chickens. And, OH!, I felt it... no more wind today and the temp is going to get over 100 degrees! I can feel the climate change! ;D
Great Post Tobina. One of the operators in West Texas that I do marketing for has a lot of the Windmills on his Ranch in Upton County Texas. Myrna and I drove up to the Windmill Farm area and just sat and listened to them. Very quiet, wildlife everywhere and cattle grazing all around. The windmills on his ranch is a joint venture with Florida power and light. I can't think of a cleaner, more efficent or more energy producing verses savings than the windmills. The cost is tremendous but I think the long term rewards are worth it. I am surprised that Queen Nancy doesn't outlaw the windmills, especially since the investors that provide the capital are wealthy people, as is the case in most of the energy sources in this world. The liberals seem to think noone should make a profit for taking the risks, (sorry I am getting off of the subject). I think Boone Pickens is on the right track, windpower and natural gas will be a big source of energy in the future. If we don't start drilling in some of the big reserve areas we will be in the same fix on ntural Gas as we are on oil, dependent of the enemy foreign governmets for our supply. We are already importing lots of Natural Gas(LNG) and building facilities to import more. We should not have to import Natural Gas given the known reserves in this country.
Frank
Oh, I forgot that this guy at Beaumont also said they were an eyesore. Yes, much more ugly than oil wells leaking salt water into the pastures and killing the natural grass around and downhill from it. NOT.
The towers at Beaumont are quite a sight, for sure. But drive West on I-70 from Salina and view the towers being built between the Brookville and West Ellsworth exits... that is an amazing sight! My favorite view is going down one of the hills and around the corner at sunset, and you have a perfect vew of a little water windmill that's probably a hundred years old standing there in the pasture with a HUGE wind tower in the background. I always want to stop and take a picture and call it "Water, Wind, and Fire". (But normally someone else is gawking at the towers and about to run off the road, so I just keep moving!) I don't know how many towers are going up, but many, many more than Beaumont. It's probably 10 miles long along the interstate.
Tobina, in West Texas, in Oklahoma West of Oklahoma City on I-40 and in California on Highway 10 to Palm Springs there are massive Windfarms with literally 100s of the Windmill-Generators. The areas in West Texas and the area going to Palm Springs are all Desert areas and not suitable to any farming and very little, if any value in grazing livestock. There are always nay sayers for everything, but for the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would be more in favor of Strip Coal Mining, Oil and Gas Drilling, polluting the atmosphere, verses wind powered generators. As far as the Prairie Chickens, I hunted them alot when I was younger and they came into my Father-in-Law's by the hundreds. Recently someone said to me " what do you think destroyed the Prairie Chicken that they don't come into the old Buffalow place". My response was that nothing destroyed them, it is just that when my Father-in-Law was alive and farming he planted corn, maize, wheat, soybeans every year as did all of his neighbors, now there is nothing planted for miles around. If people will think back, virtually all of the Prairie Chicken hunting was over grain fields that don't exist anymore.
Frank
I've seen those wind farms in California and on the way to Palm Springs. They have been there for some years now and I agree, they are quite amazing.
Who was this guy on TV talking about the wind farm at Beaumont?
Maybe all the wind farms will upset the air currents enough so there would be no more tornadoes.
There is a good logical reason the windtowers all face east................actually they move with the direction of the wind..
I don't remember who the guy was. You might be able to log on to kwch.com and re-read the story. He was just a local person; not an expert. They did interview some experts, but no one said with great certainty that his speculations were correct. It was like in a court room; they could not deny that it "MIGHT" happen.
I'm sure Pep was joking about moving with the wind. They don't actually move with the wind; each tower is facing a different direction. I think it'd be interesting to get the scoop on how they decide which direction to face each tower! And so far, I don't think any counties around the Beaumont wind towers have suffered from any less tornadoes... at least not this year!
Might we be tilting at windmills?
If Queen Nancy and Scary Harry Reid, discover that we are building all of the Wind Powered generators, they will be putting a tax on the project. A WINDFALL WIND TAX. I thought the artivce below would be enlightening to some that had an interest in wind power.
An Overview of Wind Farms
By Richard Chapo
With energy issues becoming a daily subject in the news, wind energy is gaining notoriety. Here is an overview of wind farms and their potential.
A wind farm is simply a collection of wind turbines in a location used to produce electricity. Wind farms can be found in the United States, but are far more prevalent in Europe. China is also beginning to invest large amounts of resources in wind farms as its energy needs grow.
The fundamentals of electricity production through wind farms are pretty simple. Highly efficient wind turbines are placed in locations where they will receive the maximum amount of wind energy. These turbines can be traditional horizontal windmills or vertical eggbeater windmills.
Regardless, the wind turns the blades as it passes, which turns a generator within the turbine. The turning motion converts the wind energy into electricity when the generator cranks, which is then sent into a utility company power grid or stored in batteries. This process is similar to hydropower with wind being used instead of water.
The stereotypical wind farm is an exercise in topography. The goal is to find locations where wind exists as frequently as possible. Put in practical terms, ideal spots are in areas where ground variation occurs as wind is produced when different surface areas heat up at different rates. As each surface heats up, the air rises and cooler air rushes in to replace it. Thus, we have wind. Given this situation, ideal locations for wind farms are often along shorelines or in valleys funneling winds from the shore.
Many people are under the impression that wind farms are located only in areas of land where winds are howling through valleys and over hills. While this is certainly true, the current trend is to build wind farms off the shorelines of countries.
The advantage of offshore wind farms has to do with the frequency and generation of winds. Shorelines represent fertile wind generation areas. On top of this, the open space of the ocean allows winds generated from remote locations to move towards shorelines. If you have ever spent time going sailing, you have an understanding of how strong these winds can be. On top of all of this, placing wind farms in the ocean avoids the cost of buying pricey space on land.
Wind farms are up and functioning in most first world countries. The bigger issue is getting them to produce enough energy at as low a price as possible to make them a viable energy production platform.
Rick Chapo is with SolarCompanies.com, a directory of solar energy companies. Visit us to read more wind farm articles.
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Are transmission lines a concern? You still have to get the electricity to where it is needed.
Quote from: Tobina on August 04, 2008, 07:56:43 AM
I'm sure Pep was joking about moving with the wind. They don't actually move with the wind; each tower is facing a different direction.
Tobina,
Check out this link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/wind_how.html#inside (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/wind_how.html#inside)
You may want to look at the definition of "yaw drive"
Also, for the most comprehensive "official" source of information on what's going on with wind energy in Kansas, you can click here:
http://www.kansasenergy.org/wind.htm (http://www.kansasenergy.org/wind.htm)
The site used to be kept up to date very well, but apparently the funding of the hosting entity was cut, so the updates end May 07. However most all of the links from this page work, and you can really learn alot about wind in Kansas by navigating around.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 04, 2008, 12:41:55 PM
Are transmission lines a concern? You still have to get the electricity to where it is needed.
As far as transmission goes, check out these two maps:
http://www.kansasenergy.org/documents/WindProjects.pdf (http://www.kansasenergy.org/documents/WindProjects.pdf)
http://www.kcc.state.ks.us/energy/kswindmap.pdf (http://www.kcc.state.ks.us/energy/kswindmap.pdf)
The first one shows all of the proposed and existing windfarms in Kansas, as well as the transmission lines in the state, as of May 07.
The second one is from Jan 08, and only shows existing farms or ones that are "announced," meaning a buyer for the energy has been secured and groundbreaking has occurred. However, it gives more detail on the capacity of the transmission lines.
For those thinking solar, check out this map: (sorry, but it is 7.5MB)
http://www.kcc.state.ks.us/energy/ks_solar_radiation_map.pdf (http://www.kcc.state.ks.us/energy/ks_solar_radiation_map.pdf)
Read the copy in the lower right hand corner of the second page, a little eye opening. :o :o
Very interesting! Thanks.
So now we are questioning my underutilized greatness.....maybe you should load up kungfu kowboy and go watch the turbines....if the wind is blowing.
Uh oh....I think the king is irritated. :P
I will have to keep an eye on the ear tag id lady from now on.
Is there any coal in Elk County? We are drilling for coal bed methane in the surrounding area. Is there a vein that we could exploit for our own personal and financial goals?
If we drill an oil well in the middle of the wind farm and power the jack by wind power is it still a fossel fuel?
Quote from: pepelect on August 05, 2008, 11:15:41 PM
Is there any coal in Elk County? We are drilling for coal bed methane in the surrounding area. Is there a vein that we could exploit for our own personal and financial goals?
Check out this link:
http://www.kgs.ku.edu/General/Geology/Elk/03_mine.html#OUTC (http://www.kgs.ku.edu/General/Geology/Elk/03_mine.html#OUTC)
The bottom of the page speaks of coal in Elk County:
QuoteCoal occurs at several horizons in Elk County, but as far as is known only the Nodaway and Elmo coals, both in the Wabaunsee group of rocks (stratigraphic column, Pl. 1), have been mined. Schoewe (1946) presents data on the history, location of mines, production, and reserves of coal in the Wabaunsee group.
The Nodaway coal occurs in the Howard limestone formation above the Bachelor Creek limestone and below a limestone bed 4 to 5 inches thick, which is separated by about 1 foot of black fissile and gray shale from typical massive, well-jointed Church limestone above. The coal crops out at places along the edge of the Howard limestone escarpment, especially between Howard and Mound Branch of Elk River. The Nodaway coal is thin, and as far as known it was mined in a drift mine in the SE 1/4 sec. 21, T. 30 S., R. 10 E., where according to Whitla (1940, p. 36) the coal is 18 inches thick. About 4.5 miles north of Howard, in sec. 11 and 12, T. 29 S., R. 10 E., it is probably no more than 5 inches thick where a very small amount of coal was taken from several shallow pits.
Most of the coal mined in Elk County was the Elmo coal, which occurs just below the Rulo limestone (stratigraphic column, Pl. 1). The Elmo coal mines, four strip and one shaft, are in the valley of Mound Branch less than 5 miles southwest of Howard, in sec. 20 and 21, T. 30 S., R. 10 E. The coal ranges from 16 to 18 inches in thickness and was reported mined last in 1922.
According to published data, the cumulative coal production from Elk County totaled 3,615 tons from 1894 to 1902. It is known that coal was mined in the county for local domestic use as early as 1877; mining activity was discontinued in 1922. Total cumulative production of coal in the county is estimated at 10,000 tons, most of which was Elmo coal.
Elk County contains approximately 544 acres of band underlain by an 18-inch Nodaway coal bed. This amounts to about 1,220,000 tons of coal, of which at beast 50 percent, or 610,000 tons, is recoverable. The amount of land underlain by Elmo coal that is 18 inches thick is 986 acres (1.4 square miles) and contains 2,020,000 tons of coal, of which 75 percent, or 1,515,000 tons, is recoverable. Elk County, therefore, has a total recoverable measured coal reserve of 2,125,000 tons.
Hmm. Interesting info on the wind turbines. But I still question about the turbines moving with the wind. When we drive by Beaumont, they are not all facing the same way when the wind is blowing! Some are facing in each of the 4 directions (or even diagonal to the directions). They may move a little with the wind, but they're not like the old fashioned windmills and spin 360 degrees based on the wind direction, do they? If so, why aren't they all facing the same direction when the wind blows?
They are pretty smart. They move only to increase the minimum speed that it takes to create electricity. If they are spinning fast enough and they are catching enough wind they won't move. If the wind dies down they move to catch the most wind that will keep them turning. There is a wind speed and direction device on every turbine. If one is working it only has to move to keep working. If there is not enough wind they shut down. If the power is not needed it is shut down.
The coolest part is that they get priority. The utilities have to take the wind power that is generated. That usually means turning off other sources by the same rate saving gas, coal, and uranium.
Tobina, near me in Northern California in a place called Altamont Pass we have a large wind farm that I know has wind seeking capabilities. They are not always pointing in the same direction and I have never been able to get a certain explaination as to why that occurs.
David
Some may be just a little shy! ;)
Quote from: Tobina on August 06, 2008, 10:43:04 AM
Hmm. Interesting info on the wind turbines. But I still question about the turbines moving with the wind. When we drive by Beaumont, they are not all facing the same way when the wind is blowing! Some are facing in each of the 4 directions (or even diagonal to the directions). They may move a little with the wind, but they're not like the old fashioned windmills and spin 360 degrees based on the wind direction, do they? If so, why aren't they all facing the same direction when the wind blows?
You also need to realize that wind doesn't blow in one straight direction, even though it looks like it does as evidence by everything in kansas leaning in one direction :P.
The wind currents will swirl and come in from different diretions and the turbines detect this. ALSO they utilize a sail effect. When you sail a boat on the ocean, you trim your sails and angle them to catch the wind at a angle. that allows for you to travel any direction you choose except directly into the wind. But you can travel into the wind if you angle it such that it drives the boat in a zig zag pattern.
That type of movement will cause the blades to spin faster too.
Well I'll be jiggered! (A term an old 89 yr old neighbor in Cedar Vale use to use :D )
I have learned more in the last week about "stuff". We shore have some smart people in this here ole' forum.. ;)
If coal fired plants are so bad for Kansas air quality then why do we have any? Jefferey Energy Center, etc.
If wind power is so good then why doesn't the state pony up some incentive to build them? Why can't we drill for coal bed methane pump it into underground storage with wind power and use it to heat the whole state. IF T.BOne Pickyour nose gets our new gas stations built we can buy Kansas gas. Don't we ship most of our gas to KC, Chicago, and beyond now? Why can't we bring in a small consumer of nat gas to EK. We would have to get the gas from Moline cause our gas in Howard is very high. Efficiencies of scale I am told. Larger company with more over head and liability can produce gas at a cheaper rate than smaller inefficient one.
;) ;)$$$$$$$$$ :( :( :(
Excuse me for being uninformed but what is "shanks mare"?
I always called it shanks pony but it is walking.
We call it shanks' mare too...your shanks (legs) are your mare (or pony).