Now, for you people that think this is about how smoking hurts your body and how much second hand smoke bothers you, JUST HOLD YOUR HORSES AND PUT ON YOUR BRAKES. This is about what do you think? Should city government have the right to tell private business owners how to run their businesses? If so, how long till they can come into your home and tell you what you can and cannot do there also? I personally think that private business owners should have the right to allow or not allow smoking. If smoking bothers a person, then there are plenty "non-smoking" establishments they can patronize. Thank you for your time and I'm sure I've opened up a can of worms.
Well you KNOW I can't keep my mouth shut.. so I'll tell you what my opinion is.
I think that you should be able to do whatever you want to in your home and in your own business. If you own it, you should be able to call the rules and whatever rules you have made ..those that are in your home or business will abide by those rules or ......go elsewhere.
I do think that most smokers out there are more than considerate to the majority of the public and the non smokers. I have seen lots of people hold their cigarettes away from others while smoking. And cigarettes and liquor are taxed out the yazoo... and I don't think that is fair. But that is another issue.
I could go on and on and on.. but I won't.
In fact I erased a huge part of this.. and I will just keep it simple and to the point.
You are welcome for that! ;D ;D
Well, my folks would never believe this, but I think that the business owners should have the authority to decide if their establishment is smoking or non. I hate cigarette smoke, it actually makes me ill. I think it's because I grew up in a smoking home. My brother and I still have trouble believing that my sister took up smoking, because we hated it so much!
But that doesn't mean that I think I'm the boss of everyone else in the building... unless it's my building ::). Even then, when I'm around smokers, I try to be gracious. But, like you've already pointed out, most all are very considerate of others and always wait till they are outdoors or back in their vehicle to light up. When we go out to eat at my folks' favorite restaurant, they make an effort to keep the smoke away from me as much as possible. I believe that most of the smokers I know are just as courteous.
I'm never going to like smoking, and if I have a free choice I'll chose a non-smoking establishment to do business in. Many times I've decided against going to a certain place because I'm not up to dealing with the smoke; bingo, bars or restaurants come to mind. I do believe that it should be the business owners that make that decision though. Government should not be interfering in personal lives and businesses to this extent.
I wasn't going to add my two cents to this, but my fingers have a mind of their own and seem to want to comment.
I was a smoker for 33 years give or take...........my choice and I have been smoke free for,Seven years, five months, two days, 13 hours, 57 minutes and 26 seconds. 94870 cigarettes not smoked, saving $15,653.37. Life saved: 47 weeks, 9 hours, 50 minutes.
= and I am proud that I manage to keep myself smoke free.
I didn't develop cancer till I had been smoke free almost 3 years. But, I know that the smoke, cigarettes and that junk is what caused my cancer. Mine was of the soft tissue of the mouth about where tonsils are suppose to be if you have any.
I believe each of us should have the say in whether we smoke or not and all the other issues that THEY want to tell us we can't do.
For some strange reason when someone tells me I can't do something, I want to go do it anyway.........I DON'T CARE IF IT IS GOING TO BITE ME........it should be my choice. Yes it does help to use brains that God gave us.
Each time government takes away one freedom, than the next time they go after another freedom we just shake our heads and let it happen. (LOOK AT OUR GAS SITUATION)
Smoking is an addiction and we all know that. Addictions must be dealt with. But, I don't want anyone coming into my home or my business and telling me that I can't smoke...or drink or eat or take a deep breath or well I could go on and on and on.
So, there are my two cents......now for someone else...
Oh, I want to admit that I am so happy that I can smell the flowers and even tho my allergies won't let me have cut flowers in the house..........that doesn't stop me from taking a whiff or two when I am outside.
Smoking stinks and so do smokers.....but I still sit in the smoking area when I go to cafe. MY CHOICE!
I, like Judy was going to pass on this one, but felt that I had to at least give my opinion on the subject. It is going on 10 years since I had a cigarette or an alcoholic drink . I smoked for almost 40 years, I tried to quit many, many many times with no success. The biggest incentitive that made me quit was my first grandchild. My oldest son and his wife neither one could stand cigarette smoke,. They were visiting us when she was pregnant with our first Grandchild, I light a cigarette and she stomped her feet and said"I can't believe you are going to keep smoking those cigarettes and shorten your life where you can't enjoy this Grandson I am caring for you that you keep saying you want so bad". Well that was it, I made up my mind right then that I was going to quit and shortly after I did and I am so thankful that I was able to do it. I am so much better off physically and in everyway. I am 67 years old with no signs of heart problem no signs of emphysema or cancer. I can walk all day and Quail hunt, I love bird hunting and have a great birddog. I jusyt recently completed many heart and breathing tests and my heart Dr says I am in great shape and no signs of damage from years of smoking, thank the Lord. In addition my wife has some heart and breathing problems and can't stand smoking at all so that makes me more thankful that I don't smoke. I am the youngest of 15 Children, I have lost two brothers to causes probably related to smoking and I have lost 2 sisters that both had lung cancer and emphysema, I have another sister on Oxygen and 2 more that will probably be on Oxygen in the near future. One of my sisters said "I am coming to see you" and I told we would love to have her visit but she could not smoke in the house, she said in that case I am not coming, I told her that was her choice.
I strongly believe that non-smokers have more right to clean air than smokers have the right to pollute it. There is no question that smoking is bad for the smoker and the non-smoker, industry statistics show that smoking is the cause of more sickness in those that smoke and those that are subjected to it. My greatest regret is all of the years I smoked in the car and house and Myrna and the kids had to endure it and suffer and I know there is probably some lasting damage to them for it.
I think we should double the tax on cigarettes and alcohol and continue to raise the tax until nonone can afford either of them How can someone be opposed to a tax on something that does as much damage as cigarettes. With reduced smoking we can raise more food products on the lands that now raise tobacco. In recent years the government has subsidized the Tobacco Farmer, how dumb is that.
I think back over the friends and family that I have lost as a result of smoking and it saddens me very much.
I lost a sister last month to Cancer and emphysema and I went to Topeka to visit her in Hospice House 2 days before she died and it is a scene that I will never forget. I told one of my sisiters that smokes that I wish she would go to Hospice House and spend one day and it would make her think about quitting.
Enough on that subject from me.
Frank
I am also from a family that smokes. I used to try it now and then, but to tell you the truth it really bothers my allergies. But I think that business owners should have the right to decide if they want to be smoke free or not. I think that Toot's is smoke free now and I know that Lannings is, too. I also think Poplar might be. But that is their choice. I dont think that the Government should be allowed to tell the business owners what they can and can't do. I mean, I know first hand, businesses seem to already have alot of regulations that they have to follow, many good, but some just bad!!! Of course, me being a daycare there is no smoking, but never had a problem with that!! But I do have many rules and regulations that I must follow, some good and some bad. But to tell them they have to ban smoking in there facility is CRAZY!!!
Quote from: flo on May 06, 2008, 09:09:20 PM
Now, for you people that think this is about how smoking hurts your body and how much second hand smoke bothers you, JUST HOLD YOUR HORSES AND PUT ON YOUR BRAKES.
many of you forgot to read the first line. Great that you have quit, etc etc. I want to know your opinion on whether or not you think government has a right to tell a private business owner what they can and cannot do in THEIR OWN BUSINESS. If they can, then what is their next step? Your Home? Your Car? Your Yard? That business owner bought that business, built it up, pay their taxes, meet numerous govermental rules and regulations, now they're told who to serve and who to not? think about it, folks.
I think Smoking should be banned in all buildings, Public and Private. If people want to smoke in their homes that is up to the individual. I agree that the government gets involved in many facets of our life, and while I don't always agree with some of the rules I know that we have to have rules to protect the masses from the vices of the few. I often hear people complain about government intervention and rules from the government being bad. What is good and what is bad is in the eyes of the beholder, what is good and bad depends on "WHOSE OX IS BEING GORED". Not everyone is going to be for every law and rule mandated by the government but every rule and law has been beneficial to some. Our duly elected officials, elected by a majority of the people make the rules, that is a democracy.
Frank
Doesn't that depend on the definition of "private business" If the "private business" hires workers, it isn't so private any more. If it serves the public, it definitely is not private. Here I need to go back and read Flo's post once again, excuse me for a moment.!@#$%^&*()+ ok, I'm back. Maybe as the proprietor of a private business that serves the public, they should be allowed to decide about the smoking issue. But, now, I know that if there is a choice, I will not do business where I have to put up with second hand smoke. And if I feel that way, don't you think enough other people do to, that it would hurt the business to allow smoking?
Does the government has a right to try to the protect the health of it's citizens by banning smoking indoors? I would say yes, because in the long run the health of these citizens is costing the government. It has already cost the government for sick days I had to take because a co-worker smoked at his desk which was upwind from mine. I haven't had strep throat since the government banned smoking in their buildings.
I am sure that if the cost of allowing smoking were taken into consideration, many, many more people would say no smoking. I know that as a landlord, there was more cleaning and repairs needed on a home after smokers moved out than when non-smokers had lived there. And the smell is atrocious. How can you stand to be close to a smoker even when they are not smoking. They stink.
Smoking in any building (other than your own home) in a non-issue in California. It's not allowed. Period! And, there are very few complaints! You actually get used to being "smoke-free" in a hurry! Many restaurants have outdoor seating to accomodate the people who want to smoke.
I have found the smoking ban in Oklahoma's restaurants, businesses and public buildings to be one of the best improvements made in the past 25 years.
We enjoy the smoke-free environments in all surrounding states: Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma and Colorado.
Ah, outdoor seating in Kansas year round. There is something to dream about.
I guess I'm not nearly as mad at "them" as some of you are. We are no smoking here and after the boiling over settled down, it's been good. Respiratory illnesses are down, kids can breathe clean air anywhere (my main concern) and yes, there are dumb, inconsiderate people who do have to have someone else think for them. As far as regulations go, I'm glad a health inspector can report a dirty commercial kitchen, someone watches for water pollution and someone from "THEM" can go into a private home to stop a pedophile from doing terrible things, stop child and animal abuse anywhere, and do things for the public good. If my neighbor is cooking meth in the privacy of his own home, do I want THEM to stop it? Sure, if it blows up and takes my house with it, it's not my business? HA! As a side note, we have very few office fires any more as people go outside to smoke. But now that spring is here, we've seen a big increase in mulch and dumpster fires.
Coming from a smoking family, I have been around smoke my entire life, yet have never smoked myself. I will say that I do think the government (city, county, state, federal) has a right to protect the citizens by imposing a no-smoking ban in public buildings. Here in Georgia, they have even taken it a step-further. In the county that I work in (Dekalb County) you can not smoke in public, period. Doesn't matter if you are outdoors... the only place you can smoke is in the privacy of your own home. I know that in the 18 years I have worked at Emory University, the smokers would go outside to smoke, however, I had to walk through their stinkin' haze to get into the building. I'm glad that the county has banned smoking in public. That's my 2 cents.
I, too, was going to pass on this one, but I just can't keep my mouth shut. Cigarette smokers are costing this government millions/billions of dollars in taxpayers money. Who do these folks think pays for all these MAJOR medical expenses? I'm sure the insurance companies aren't paying all of it, and what about the folks that can't afford insurance, that have cancer, or other MAJOR health issues, so the bills are coming back home to roost to the American taxpayer, so in that case the American people should have a say in where their money is being spent (but they don't). And here's a question, based on the same principle. If people don't think the government should tell a private business what they should/shouldn't do regarding cigarette smoking, how are the handicapped laws any different? Hasn't the government passed laws requiring handicapped facilites in businesses?
In a personal comment, private businesses are in business for making money. What business is going to drive people away (that's costing them $$$$), by allowing smoking? I believe there are more non-smokers now than smokers. The bottom line is MONEY!!
Diane, those are very good points that you made. I don't like to be rude, but I do not like to go into places that people smoke. When we lived in West Texas, some of the towns passed ordinances that restaurants could either be smoking or not smoking. or if they chose to have both, they had to have separate areas with separate air systems. Most chose to go non-smoking. One restaurant we went to often was afraid to go non-smoking as she thought it would hurt her business. No so, if anything, it improved it!
Aside from the lost time due to illness,I also want to point out the time lost from employees getting one or two smoke breaks each morning and each afternoon. The would congregate for 10-15 minutes---soon it became 20, 25, 30 and non-smokers sometimes would feel they were missing out what their friends were saying as it was also a gossip time. It got so bad, that the company had to put out a memo reminding them that it was whatever time (minutes) they were allowed to go out for a smoke break and not for non-smokers. Those of us who didn't smoke could go to the break room and get a coke or a cup of coffee whenever we wanted to but were expected to go back to our desk and get back to work. On top of that, they chose to smoke in a corner by an outside door out of the wind and weather and the rest of us had to walk through it going and coming.
There are several towns in the Dallas/Ft Worth area that have smoking bans in all areas, but private homes and private cars.
My Dad smoked and I didn't use to think anything about it, but I can't be around it now with a heart condition, and since Frank has quit, I don't have bronchitis very often anymore. I used to have it several times each winter.
We have friends who smoke, but they go outside to smoke and we have containers for the "butts" to be put in. Don't want the "butts" lying around. I am still picking up butts from the workers who built this house left lying around in the yard.
Well, that's my 2 cents worth!
Myrna
I believe it is up to the business owner. It is amazing how some of the responses here about how the government has the right to step in and protect our health are coming from some of the same people that don't want the government telling them how to live their lives.
I am not a smoker, nor do I like being around smoke. But if I want to own a gun, that's my right; if I want to attend church and pray before my meal in public, that is my right; if I want to have a drink of wine with dinner, that is my right. I don't want the government telling me I can't do and that it is for my own good. I believe business owners feel the same way, it should be their right what they allow in their business.
Now I know that smoking related illnesses have cost us millions of dollars. And, I do believe their should be taxes on cigarettes to offset these costs. I don't really care how much the taxes are, because I don't smoke. My choice! My husband does however, and he is willing to pay those taxes. But I do believe if they were raised, he would find a way to quit.
Oh yeah, I have reserved the right in my own household to not allow anyone to smoke. So more than likely, if you drive by my house, you'll see the mister on the porch puffing away.
What is the government going to do next, ban steak being served at restaraunts because of high cholestorol? LOL
I knew I was opening a can of worms, but OMG :o didn't know the can was gonna be that big !! I have to add this - most of you know that I am a smoker, have been since age 14. Marvin (not to be confused with lazybear ;)) quit smoking a few years after we started dating. We do some traveling and most of the restaurants are non-smoking, doesn't bother me, most of the motel rooms we get are non-smoking, doesn't bother me, I don't smoke in his vehicle or in mine if he is driving it, doesn't bother me. If I am in someone's home that doesn't smoke, I don't either, doesn't bother me. If I have little ones in my own home, I don't smoke, doesn't bother me. WHAT DOES BOTHER ME is that if I decide to open a hamburger joint goverment has the right to tell me to keep it clean, to keep food at a certain temperature, to tell me how much I have to pay employees, but they DO NOT have the right to tell me I can't allow smoking. Non-smokers can go to Toot's or Poplar, if they choose. I"m sorry, I know smoking is bad for your health, BUT SO IS AIR POLLUTION BROUGHT ON BY INDUSTRY, VEHICLES AND ILL-RUN LANDFILLS, AMONG OTHER THINGS. NUFF SAID, NOW I'LL GET OFF MY SOAP BOX. HAVE A GOOD DAY. (think I'll go have a cigarette now ::) ;D)
But aren't "They" working to reduce air pollution, vehicle emissions, (remember leaded gas and the days before catalytic converters?) factory emissions and such.. I don't know about bad landfills except for runoff. Here fertilizer runoff is a problem into Chesapeake Bay. I don't know that any of these things would have happened if ''They'' didn't demand it, as encouraged by the general population, especially in heavily populated areas. There are simply more people now, so every problem is magnified. Now go enjoy your cigarette,...far away from me! ;) ;D
The Government regulates feed lots, packing houses, etc. Here in Ok. they say that Tyson (chicken raisers, and chicken packing houses) are polluting the Illinois River and it isn't safe to get in the water. What about the fish people catch there and hope to eat. If there weren't some regulations, I believe things would be a mess. Personally, I feel the Government should lower the speed limit to 55 mph to help conserve gasoline like was done when Carter was President.
Myrna
Yes, I know I got off the subject of smoking, but we were also talking about Government regulations.
QuoteShould city government have the right to tell private business owners how to run their businesses?
We've got to have some rules and regulations, but banning smoking should be a business choice.
If smoking is banned what will be next? Cars? Every time I drive my truck to Howard from Elk Falls I'm sure I put more carcinogens in the air then there is in several cases of cigarettes. Ever hear anybody in Kansas complain about second hand exhaust? Then there is the thousands killed,maimed and crippled each year in auto accidents.
What about all the second hand smoke from the pastures we burn last month? Better ban ag burning (got to raise beef prices cause our pasture won't support as many head without burning). I wonder how many thousands of tons of nitrates we will dump on our farm ground in Elk County so we can fertilize our corn, beans and milo this spring. Hmmm...nitrates leech out of the soil into creeks, rivers, and lakes poisoning our water supply. Better ban fertilizer (tighten your belts cause we are going to get hungry real soon).
Herbicides and Pesticides, carcinogens in a can. Anybody got an idea how many tons of this stuff the farmers, ranchers and the county spray on Elk county each year? My brothers blood test show he had Tordon (herbicide) in his system 16 months after he quit using it. This stuff is a lot whose then cigarettes, better ban them too.
No burning or herbicides, trees and brush will take over the pastures in a matter of a few years. No grass. No cattle.
No herbicides, pesticides or nitrates crop yields drop to 25% if I'm very lucky and the weathers good.
Think I'll move to town and get a job.
Everyone keeps talking about the government and "they" banning smoking and taking away people's rights. Actually, Wichita was the first city I've heard of that the city government made the ban themselves... every other city I've heard of (at least in KS lately), "they" were the voters of that city who decided to ban smoking. "They" were actually democracy at work; people making choices that affect their own lives.
Myrna, you didn't get off the subject. This is not about smoking. This is about rights. People voting on such things? Did the people vote to ban anything christian from "public" buildings? I don't think People voted for the smoking ban, either, and I've been in towns where there is absolutely no smoking inside ANY building, private, public or outhouse. But my rights and your rights are going down the drain, fast, and I don't mean "smoking" rights. AND
This is off the subject somewhat also, but do you know why the Ten Commandments are no longer allowed in the Nation's Capital Building? Because anything that says "Thou shall not steal", "Thou shall not commit adultry", "Thou shall not bear false witness" hanging on the wall of a building full of politians, lawyers and judges would create a riot.
Tobina "they" also had the choice to patronize a business that did not allow smoking.
Well as Ma knows I don't smoke never smoked and never will smoke but it really doesn't bother me in public. Never has, so I think smokers can smoke whereever they want as far as I'm concerned.
The problem is: You're all so bashful about expressing your opinions!
LOL!
Flo, you really did open a little can of worms here, didn't you?
I think our Government is doing such a wonderful job. They should ban guns so you won't be shooting those darling little quail. They should tell me how to spend my money and tax me a little more on my cigarettes and gasoline ( of which I will be using more of since they have already decided I can't vote in Piedmont, but must drive to Eureka.) I think having to have a picture to vote is a wonderful idea. If only they would tell me when I can have sex and when to eat it would be a wonerful life.
Man, I'm sorry but I just GOT to go there, smokers are worse for pollution than all the coal fired electric plants they fired up when Bush turned em loose?? Smokers cause more pollution than the 50 zillion cars runnin up and down the roads in major cities??? GIVE me a friggin break!!!! This society we are livin in can't make a decision about ANYTHING without some politician or lobbyist tellin em what they should be thinkin! It's not the tobbaco that causes the problems, it's the chemicals they put IN the tobacco. And the blah blah blah about what it costs the taxpayers in medical costs, so what! 99.9% of those people have BEEN taxpayers all their lives! If you really think all that pollution outside stops at the door and bannin smokin is gonna make that much difference.............Like I said I don't smoke, never have but I don't think my way is the only way. Just keep it up and they WILL be tellin ya when you can have sex and how many kids you can have and where you have to live and what your career is gonna be and you'll be good little sheep and not make any waves. As for me and mine we are gonna rock the boat!!!!!!!!!!!
I think some of your need to speak to your senators and representatives! You know our Government is run by people that WE elect. After all, the Government is: of the people, by the people, for the people!
mlw
I want Pam to run for Govenor,,,I like her style. 8)
... but then Pam would start governing and none of us would like it.
Hey, you fertilizer farmers out there....be careful what you suggest in the way of controlling fertilizer use. There are already stricter measures here in regards to field run off and what gets into the water table. Be glad you've got lots of land out there! One of the big buzzwords here is "containment" Ya oughta see us jumpin' if a big compost farm catches fire or there's a big spill of something on the road. Stopping the runoff from the fire fighting is almost more important than the emergency. We have to soak it up, or contain it somehow or there can be fines and real trouble. But you are correct, "controls" raise the overhead of growing, raising or producing everything. That, like it or not, is the future. Little Delaware is 42% farmland, most of it downstate. Soil nitrates are becoming a problem, as is salt in the soils from irrigating from ground water. Our water supplies are in trouble in spite of everything that gets tried. The oyster industry is in bad shape, the sport fishing is down, the variety of fish is less, and the Chesapeake Bay is slowly on it's way out. On the coasts, and big metro areas ,the problems are more obvious, quicker to happen, and harder to fix. Nobody wants to have someone else's will imposed on them, but sometimes you have to look at the greater good. I hate patching up drunks who wreck their cars...but that's part of what we do, if for no other reason to get everybody else on the road moving again. I can't very well take care of just those I decide are the innocents. I don't agree with lots of decisions people make, but the chances are they pay their taxes just like I do. One of the dumbest things I think Delaware ever did was to repeal our motorcycle helmet law. But the bikers won out and they are happy.....even though the number of deaths and head injury cases rose dramatically. So be it. Some people feel just as strongly about seat belts. They equate personal freedom with belts. But that's another story.
Yes, in this instance I do believe that it is okay for the government to implement a smoking ban. #1 and foremost is the impact that smoking has on the health care industry. One good way for the government to attempt to lessen the health care burden is to make it more difficult to smoke. It is a plus for the smoker and the nonsmoker. Businesses are NOT going to lose money by NOT having cigarette smoke in their establishments. I have lived in an area for 10 years that has had a smoking ban in ALL enclosed establishments. No one has lost money or gone out of business. There is now a provincial bylaw that bans smoking within 29' of any outside doorway on any building other than a private residence. It's HEAVEN to not have to walk through a haze of cigarette smoke to get into the bank, or the grocery store, or our favorite local restaurant.
The Canadian health care system is much different than the US privatizied health care system. The government in Canada provides, free of charge, basic health care. My husband and I are lucky in that both of our employers provide additional health insurance. Basically we have zero out of pocket medical costs. My point in saying that is the cost of health care in the US is insane and a lot of instances not affordable. A portion of government sponsored health care monies in the US could be redirected to another area if the lung cancer, emphysema, asthma, and other lung disorder cases were fewer.
I don't think it should be looked at as if the government is dictating or taking rights away...actually I think the government is giving rights back to the public in general. The right to have the opportunity to breathe untainted fresh air.
this discussion was a bust far as I'm concerned. It WAS NOT about smoking or not smoking - it is about individual RIGHTS of business OWNERS to make their own rules about whether or not to allow smoking in THEIR own establishment. I guess it's okay for government to be able to stick their noses into any business, public or private. So next is our PRIVATE lives in the homes we OWN. Does this sound like another country, maybe?
Florene, I don't want to offend you, but it seems to me that majority ruled in passing laws about smoking or nonsmoking. I don't see where rights were violated if that is what the majority wanted. They are passing no smoking laws in every state and in every city, that is a democracy at work doing what the majority wants.
Frank
Frank, sorry, I don't consider the city council the majority.
Flo, I so agree with you. I'm really not interested in being dictated to. Most are so into not smoking that they miss the point. Watch out if they are reformed smokers or drinkers!!!!!!!!!! It was nice when we did live in a free country.
thank you, Sally, for getting the point I was trying to make. Maybe I came on a little too strong and failed to word my concerns correctly.
LOL, I wanna know where all this fresh UNTAINTED air is, I wanna breathe some of it. If there is a car in your neighborhood, your air is tainted lol. The main reason businesses don't lose money when there is a smoking ban is because unless you move or want to drive you really don't have any choice but to keep shoppin there.
As for the majority rules etc. were you all ok when the majority ( of the supreme court anyway) ruled your kids couldn't pray in school anymore? When the majority ( of congress anyway )believed Bushs lies and voted to start a war with Iraq? Did anybody ask you? Did you vote your kid can't pray in school? Did you vote to take all christian symbols out of government buildings? Did you vote to legalize abortion or any of the other things you don't agree with?
It's all about freedom people and it's gettin chipped away a little at a time everytime you sit there and say oh, ok, well I don't like smokin so it's ok to take that right away from somebody else who does. Or well I hate guns so go ahead and take those other guys guns, they don't need em anyway. One of these days it's gonna be you and you ain't goin to like it one bit either. So be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
As for runnin for governor lol you couldn't melt me down and pour me into politics LOL. Bout two days with all the corruption and glad-handin and I'd be in BIG trouble :P
That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it ;D
Flo, one last comment then I will not make another about the subject. The City council is selected by the voters just like all legislative/governing bodies in a democracy. In most cases, each one does what their constituents in their ward, district,or state wants. There has never been a law put in place that everyone is in favor of. Our system is not perfect but is still the best one in the world, and our country is still the best place to live and raise a family.
Frank
This country was supposed to founded on freedom, personal freedom, to worship as you want, to live where you want, to be what you want,etc. Along with personal freedom comes personal responsibility. Yeah, smokin causes cancer etc. in some people. But not ALL people.
Taking away one persons freedom in favor of another persons freedom is not really freedom. And before anybody even brings up the one about well if a guy decides to kill somebody is it ok to take his freedom of choice away from him, that's like talkin about apples and oranges.
Oh, screw it,...................You bet I'm damn glad I live in America, :-X
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c102/keegometer/Stress.jpg)
Hope this is not a double post but I think this is what Pam is trying to say. At least I think so.
I so agree Lazy Bear!! Awesome video that says it all!
:o :-\ would they???????????
Excellent...
Thanks for posting....
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa101/chamakabeta1/Stuff/GoldStars.jpg)
Whole BOX of gold stars for Lazy Bear !!!!!!!!!! LOL
Pogo said 'we have met the enemy, and he are us! ' ::) ::)
Man, what an eye opener. Marvin and I were in Wichita yesterday and we like to eat at IHOP on E. Kellogg if we are doing a bit of shopping at Wally World or Lowes. We done just that yesterday. They used to be a smoking facility, but became smoke-free several months ago. This didn't bother me one bit and we still ate there. Yesterday the hostess asked us "Smoking or non-smoking" and I smiled and said "but you're a smoke-free restaurant". She smiled and said not anymore, we have a seperate ventilation system in the smoking section, so we were seated in the "smoking section". How's that for a turn around and taking advantage of the new "rules"? and that section was full, too. I REST MY CASE.
Great.. as it should be.. IF that is what the "business owners" want!
After all.. they are the ones paying the taxes and footin' the bills.
If they want a smoking section or if they don't.....it solely THEIR call.
If you want to eat there.. or not... it is solely YOUR call.
I wonder if the governments have had to step in to set/enforce rules for smoking and non-smoking sections? I mean, I've been to restaurants before where they sat us in a NON-smoking section, and right over the 4' divider wall someone was smoking like a chimney. Needless to say, I didn't feel like I was in a non-smoking section at all, nor did I smell like it the rest of the night. I know it's still my choice as to whether to go back or not, but to me that was false advertising! I know it's their right to smoke, but it was also my right to not breathe their smoke when I was told I was being seated in a non-smoking area. If I would have been told that there was no non-smoking area, then I would have made the choice to either live with it or eat somewhere else.
Delaware has considered banning smoking on our ocean beaches... I'm not sure that isn't a bit much even for me. Perhaps it has to do with how close together the blankets and towels can get during high beach season.
Tobina, Wichita's new "law" states that smoking is allowed in a seperate room from non-smoking and have it's own ventilation system. These were all in compliance at IHOP. I started this thread and I am calling a halt to it. It was not about smoking vs non smoking. It was about the government having the right go dictate how a private business owner should run his business. Anymore smoking vs non-smoking will not be necessary. THANK YOU
But Flo, other than the smoking issue, what other examples of government "buttinski" did you have in mind? I agree with you in principle, except for smoking and other health issues. HIPAA rules protect patient privacy ( they can be a pain) and OSHA protects worker's safety, etc. If you mean should I dictate what color you paint your store front, I agree with you. You want a purple bakery, so be it. Some of the Mexican markets here are colorful, to say the least. Nothing wrong with that. They want to stay open all night, fine by me. Unlike some states we don't have booze or beer sales in supermarkets, nor do we have "near beer." We have owner operated liquor stores. Should the owner be able to sell to 10 year olds if he feels like it? They can already refuse service to anyone, but the other 'way round? Nearby PA has "state stores." All alcohol is sold by the state and regulates the days and hours the sales can be made. They used to also have "blue laws." No sales of much of anything on Sunday. That has been liberalized quite a bit. If the local goofy kids didn't spray paint everything and drink all the cough syrup in sight, those would have been non issues also. We do also have some signage laws to keep extremely flashy advertising signs from distracting or blinding drivers. What did you have in mind?
Dianne, go back to post #1
Ok, I did go back and reread it. I guess I get it, but I'm not a "they got their foot in the door, what's next" kind of person, I guess. We have a smoke detector law here and I was expecting resistance to that too, but it never happened. We'll provide them for free and put them up and even provide and install new batteries as needed. I suppose our business owners here could complain that we butted in by mandating smoke detectors. But it's for our protection too. I'd much rather go to a small fire that a smoke detector found early, than a big deal fire that cooked for hours. How do you feel about seatbelt laws? ( I know it's not the same thing, just curious.)
We started using seat belts while Janet was sheriff because we didn't want to embarass her by possibly getting a ticket for not wearing them. Now I am not comfortable without one. And the ride is easier also, as I don't have to hold my body from being thrown back and forth with the swerving or bumping of the car. I have never been one to question authority or rebel against reasonable laws, especially laws that protect me. If you think our laws are too strict, maybe you should read the laws that God laid down for the Jews. I don't know just where in the Bible to find them, but I have read them and nothing was left to discretion. When you thought about it you realized that the laws were for the protection and health of God's people.
In the late 70s, federal and military bases began requiring buckled seat belts in order to get on base.
Once on base, one received a ticket if not buckled up--and that folks was a federal offense taken care of by the federal courts.
Once off base no one, but no one, was wearing seat belts and we felt rather foolish at the nannyism.
However, it did not take long to get used to them and if not buckled up, on or off base, it felt like we were missing something.
Someone sideswiped the wife's car in Aurora, CO, in 1983 and the responding ambulance people were quite surprised she was wearing a seat belt. She was not hurt but the car was damaged extensively and the policeman called an ambulance anyway to check her out.
Y'know....the point Mom was TRYIN to make was if you are an ADULT in a free country and you pay your taxes and your bills you ought to have the right to make your own decisions. If you want to (sorry ma) smoke or NOT smoke, allow smokin in your business or NOT allow smokin in your business. The point she was tryin to make has nothin to do with people sellin liquor to little kids or anything like that, that's just not even in the same ballpark. Nobody wants personal responsibility anymore, let somebody else make my decisions for me and tell me what to do and when and how and how not, that way I don't have to take responsibility if it goes wrong, I can set back and say well they're the ones who decided it had to be that way, it's not MY fault. SOME people were taught that if you are gonna dance, sooner or later you gotta pay the band. SOME people want to dance and have the other guy pay the band, and SOME people would just as soon NOBODY got to dance and wish the band would shut the hell up and go away, guess which bunch me and Mom belong to.
This was copied and pasted, but I read it years ago and it is quite thought provoking. When I read it I think about individual right's eroding one at a time to different fractions of society as to not offend the masses at one time. Like separate and conquere a group at a time
There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class.One day while the class was in the lab the Prof. noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt. The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting Communists in his native country, who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new Communist government.In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question: ' Do you know how to catch wild pigs ?' The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke. 'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn.When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America . The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc.While we continually lose our freedoms - a little at a time. One should always remember 'There is no such thing as a free lunch!
I had read that before and it still holds true. thank you for refreshing our minds
Exactly Lazy Bear!!!!!!!!!! The old "It's for you're own good" one seems to work real well on most people :P
How do you feel about mandatory recycling? ( honest, I'm not arguing, I'm just interested in other people's points of view.)
Personally, I think people ought to be smart enough to see the sense in recycling without havin it forced on them.
I agree, but I know we'll soon have an increase of old mattresses and things tossed back in the woods, because unfortunately that's how too many people are. I feel the same way about drunk drivers, they ought to know better, but we all know the truth about that too.
Mandatory recycling works for a lot of people. If they have to pay for it anyway and are fined if they throw away recyclables, they soon see the wisdom of it. I recycle as much as I can, but there are still plastics that can't be recycled. I hate throwing them in the trash but what else can you do? What if the government (government again) made it illegal to manufacture anything that can't be recycled? That wouldn't make more people recycle but would make it easier for me. I don't think the government is doing enough.
We've had voluntary recycling of various kinds here for many years. Mandatory at home recycling will start as soon as Newark can afford to buy another set of the big rolling trash cans for everyone. I'm starting to try to figure out all the "cans and cant's." There are still some things I haven't figured out. We can be fined if we get it wrong. We have a city transfer station and from there the big trucks go to the Cherry Island landfill. We tried years ago to get a trash to steam plant started, but it got beat down. Maybe that will come up again now. When everybody everywhere does it, it will help a bit. I've seen the huge garbage barges that head to sea from New York City. Unbelievable
this is kind of a stupid question, but I don't know so will ask. I have seen those huge garbage barges on TV and where do they go to dump? On someone else? pollute the water downstream? Where?
Flo, I'm way to young to remember these ad's and I'm sure you was just a youngster, but it kind of reminds me of the teachings of the five basic food groups in school that I lived by and now to find out it's a food pyramid and we've been doing it all wrong all this time.
they dump it in the ocean mom
Remind me never to swim in the ocean :-[ and as for you, lazybear, you KNOW I was just a youngster when doctors were smoking. ;D (still am :angel:) and as for the food groups, never paid much attention to em cause figured sooner or later they'd decide that wasn't good for you, just like coffee isn't good for you and eggs aren't good for you, and blah blah blah and now coffee is and eggs are and blah blah blah - what I need now is some chocolate ;D
To be honest, standing outside of hospitals and clinics and nursing homes... you see more doctors and nurses smoking than anyone else!
Flo were you asking me about NYC ? Long ago the barges were all dumped at sea. Now some goes to VA. and NC. and other states who contract to take it. The big huge dump on Staten Island was closed ( Fresh Kills) after 9-11. The nasty stuff that shows up on the beaches is now more likely to be from sewer outfalls over loaded from storms. Bacteria gets high in the oceans off New Jersey in Aug. but samples are taken several times each day and the beaches will be closed if the harmful bacterias get too high. It happens off Del. too, but not as commonly. Sunshine kills off a lot of it in a short time. We never go in if counts are too high.
Lazy Bear, you weren't doing anything "wrong" with your food groups. Research has just refined things a bit, that's all . A great many things change over time as we learn more and more. Now little kids aren't supposed to take aspirin. Who knew? Nothing is ever going to stay the same, I guess. But then again, I have a friend who had a heart transplant years ago and is doing great. I never thought I'd ever see that. For as much as we grump about some things, there are lots of good things too.
Diane, our area has I guess what you could term mandatory recycling. We have "blue" boxes for alum, glass, plastic, paper products (the obvious recylables) and we also have a "green cart" (small cart, hip high) that is for dumping all food materials...basically compost materials. These two things are picked up, curb side, on a weekly basis. Every TWO weeks "garbage" is picked up (anything that would normally be thrown out but not considered recyclable and we are limited to 3 bags of "garbage" every 2 weeks. Also every second week yard waste materials (everything but grass clippings, grass clippings are no longer picked up)...leaves, twigs, branches, etc etc.
OKAY now...once a month, we have a "large item" pickup. Large items can be furniture...carpet..TV's...anything but large appliances. You can sit anything on the curb and the garbage trucks will pick it up...ONCE a month. OH...I'm not finished....if you have large appliances to toss, the regional waste management trucks will pick them up if you call in advance to let them know you have something (specific days of the month they do this). Trucks will not pick up anything considered hazardous...paint...batteries, etc...but you can take them to the landfill (for free) where they have a special collection area for such items. I've never seen such orginazation.
That is very impressive! By the time it is all done, ours will be similar for home owners, but we are encouraged to have compostors or piles for kitchen scraps (except meat, fat or bones) and grass, weeds and small branches. We have had a chipper for years and do already compost. We will be able to co-mingle the recyclables. Our city trucks will come get any big thing you can get to the curb, by appointment. We can never burn, so I still have questions about diseased plants and leaves that I don't want to compost but can't throw away. I'll have to find out soon. Several times a year we can take hazmat waste to a pick up point. At the end of this semester There will be a place for left over dorm and apartment furniture at