Okay, so why has no one mentioned what is going on in ElDorado Texas? And just what do you think about what is going on in ElDorado Texas? Know it is probably a sore subject, but seems a good one for a debate.
Don't even get me started :P
O, OK :-[
I would be glad to comment if I could find the words to fully express my feelings about these men. As I have said before, I was raised to be a lady and ladies don't use that kind of language.
awwwwwwwww, go ahead Wilma. I'll cover my eyes :-\
Think it's a messed up deal that needs to be stopped, they treat women like property and brood mares. Always say if it's ok for them to have 4 or 5 wives it oughta be ok for a woman to have 4 or 5 husbands LOL Not that any chick in her right mind would want that :D
Hmmmm-- freedom of religion versus child abuse. :-\ My mom was a bride at 14 years of age. Certainly not unheard of in the early part of the 1900s. I don't think this was child abuse., but it would be by todays' standard. A woman can marry in Kansas at the age of 16 with parental consent. Is this child abuse?
Cults are not unheard of in this country, and there are probably many more than we can imagine. Many live on the fringe of our society, and sometimes just outside the law, sometimes just on the inside. I know that polygamy is illegal, and this is the real basis of the problem. I think there is just one legal wife, and the others, wives in the site of the community. Is that wrong? Depends upon who you are and where you are looking from. I doubt the young woman in question would have said anything should she have been the 'legal' wife, and not just in the 'sisterhood' of the family. Girls of sixteen having sex isn't unheard of, look at the out of wedlock childbirth rate, abortion rate, and std rate in this country. Most of the statistcs involve underage girls. I know I'm gonna get flack for this next statement, but maybe out of wedlock sex with a 50 year old man who treats you as a wife might be better than having sex around the corner any old time with an irresponsible partner. Most of the folks I saw being evacuated from El Dorado looked well, and well fed.
Ideally, every girl in this country will wait for sex until she is out of college, and independent. But that ain't gonna happen. Of course, I don't agree forcing anyone to have sex with anyone! And I really doubt that that happened. There has been a witch hunt going on for many years against the polygamist cults, and I think this just may be the latest move on them. Enough said, if this don't stir things up, nothin' will. And I didn't cuss even once!! LOL!! ;D ;D
That is one of the things I don't understand. Why would a woman want to live under these conditions? The ones I saw on the news did look well fed and dressed. Dressed like women from 2 centuries ago and their hair bundled up, just as the old movies portrayed the Mormon villages of illegal wives. I would think that any woman with any pride would want her own and not just be part of a group of nonentities.
You see women here dressed like that too. There are some very unusual versions of worship that came to light in the late 1800s, not just Mormonism but Unitarians, Calvanists, Spiritualists, and on and on and on. Women the world over hide from the general society behind bulky garments that mark them as members of certain sects or societys. Doesn't mean they are right and it doesn't mean they are wrong. It does mean that they like the security of the group, a primitive but effective means of seperatist society.
I used to be neighbors with a very nice family that had moved here from Arkansas. The fundamentalist church they belonged to did not believe in doctors of any kind. As a result, the woman died of complications of diabetes at a young age. She literally laid in her bed and rotted to death. I think that is a sin and a crime, but it was their way. Thier niece tried to give birth at home but could not. She and the baby both died after three days of labor. I think that is also a sin and a crime. Talk about child abuse! But the law does not see it that way.
I do have to wonder about the legitamacy of the Texas child abuse claim. There have been many instances of persecution of these sects that believe in polygamy. After all, the United States government required mass divorces of the polygamys Mormons before Utah would be admitted into the union. I think it is very possible that some sherriff is seeking re-election. Just a thought.
We lived in West Texas when they started that colony, the local people were very upset about it and tried to stop it. The local Sheriff had to stop people from trying to go on to the land that this group had purchased. ElDorado is a very conservative and Chritian community and they have been wanting to get this colony shut down for a long time. The leader had to leave after the Federal Government brought charges against him. Hopefully he will not be able to regain control after he finishes his prison term. I have always felt that the leaders of many of this type of groups were nothing but conmen using religion as a coverup to gain power, make money and have sex with numerous partners and unfortunately young girls that are forced to have sex with these slime balls.
Frank
Again, most of what I know I have heard on TV - both about the evacuation and interviews with those that have escaped to the outside world. One woman ( a former wife of this Jeffs) said that from the time they are born, women are taught that they are the servant of the men, they are brain washed and do exactly as told or are beaten. They don't know any different. She said she was scared to death of the "outside people" when she first escaped because of the things she had been told. How evil they were. Her reason for escaping was the beatings and physical abuse of her and her 8 children. She took them with her, but left her "step-children" behind and hopes that they are among the evacuees. As for this 16 yr. old, if I heard and read the captions right, she was hoping if she faked injuries she would be rescued. Everyone has a right to worship as they choose, but sounds like to me that the "males" (I hesitate to call them men) were the only ones doing the choosing. Back "in the day" marriage at 14, or younger, was not all that uncommon, but it was their choice. I don't think these girls had that choice. Forced marriages, incest, rape, beatings and abuse, it's time to let these women and children have a life.
It's not polygamy I have a problem with, this sect is male dominated, the leader decides who marries who and when, the women don't have any rights at all , the man is the one who decides everything, and if you are grown and that's what you want fine but those girls don't have a choice from the minute they are born their life is mapped out for them, very little education, trained in "womens"work, taught to obey without question.And no I don't think being forced to marry a 50 year old man when you are 14 or 15 against your will is a better alternative. No difference between that and Islam as far as women are concerned. As you may be able to tell this is a pet peeve of mine, I was raised with the idea that I could do anything a man could do and I have been making my livin doin so-called mens work for the last 25 or 30 years and I've never used the "I can"t do it cause I'm a girl" card.( and look y'all I didn't cuss once :P ::)
very well stated. There is a BIG difference between religious beliefs and physical, mental and sexual abuse, especially with children.
Soooo do we close the synagogues? Circumcision without anesthesia is very painful; nobody asked the baby. The child is certainly underage and uneducated. And what about abortion? Does not the child have a right to live? Isn't it painful to be pulled apart by a suction device? And what about the poor little screaming babies being given piercings in the Walmart jewelery counter? Were they asked or educated? We gotta be very careful here, religous freedom is precious as is other freedoms. We must be very careful how we point the finger, cause when a finger is pointed, always several are pointing back at us.
Just a few thoughts here. I too worked in a male dominated job force but it is changing. The good old boy network is alive and well, but things are beginning to change. I hope this thing in Texas can be resolved without bloodshed, as this sect has been in existence for over 100 years. You cannot legislate morals, just make a little stab at them, and there are many people that use the law as a matter of convenience and advantage for themselves. We must be very careful not to lose the wide system of beliefs that this country was founded on.
Lol Maybe I didn't make myself clear on whether or not I care about their religion, I don't. They can tatoo theirselves blue and run around naked for all I care. I don't care how many wives they have, or husbands for that matter :P. I don't care how or where they go to church. Or any other religion for that matter. I care about girls bein taught they are lesser beings from the time they are old enough to pay attention. I care about grown men who in any other context would be considered child molesters taking girls 20 or 30 years younger than them, saying oh shes my "wife" and using her. We say oh well in the old days girls got married that young and did it all the time. In the old days a 14 or 15 year old was as mature as a 30 year old is now. 14 or 15 year olds nowadays as a general rule are nowhere near ready for that kind of responsibility. I don't see any reason for bloodshed for that matter, who would?! I'm fightin a losin battle here I know, it's not about religion it's about domination and worth of human beings. It's about the worth of women.
Just so it's clear, I have not a thing against men either, men are the other half of women. I guess that's my point, we are equal and equally important.
Abortion is a very serious issue all on it's own
Freedom of Religion - that is one of our rights. I agree, worship as you wish in your own way. Sorry, but child abuse and domestic abuse does not have a place in religion of any kind, shape or form. Yes, LDS has been in existance for 100's of years. The guy that took over after Brigham Young died is in my family tree. Cowboys used to carry guns and fight indians too. That has changed. The LDS has also changed. This sect has split from the original church and formed their own religion. They worship what is in their pants and will use it to their own advantage whenever and wherever with whomever. This has nothing to do with abortion. That is another subject all it's own. This has to do with domestic and child abuse, PERIOD, and they need to be stopped. Do you think I could form my own religion and one of the beliefs is that I can kill and rob whoever I please whenever I please and do it in the name of "my church" that they would let me get away with it? Not on your life, so why should these "men". OMG, I got carried away, but sorry, I feel very strong about this.
Go MA!!! :laugh: ;D
didn't give my position on circumcision. I only had girls, but circumcision is a "one time only" operation. Not a night, after night, after night happening. Circumcision is done as a "cleanliness" thing, I think, not sure. There could be some religious ritual connected to it, I don't know, but once it's done, it's done. Big difference, I'm thinking, to what is happening in ElDorado, Texas.
doess anyone know, are there any of these Mormon enclaves in Kansas ?
I found this.....
http://www.kansasheritage.org/werner/mormroad.html
but to my knowledge.. there are Mormon churches and congregations.. but unlike Utah... they are not enclaved in Kansas..
(that is saying this with no factual backing.)
Thanks Teresa
OK folks, now that the Texas court has spoken, and It's all up in the air again, what do you think of the El Dorado situation?
Think they need to fall back and punt