Almost everyone knows about Geronimo, the most famous of Apache leaders.
Born in 1829 in Mexican Territory, Geronimo was a medicine man, spiritual
leader and fierce warrior. He could see into the future, walk without
creating footprints and legend tells it...even hold back the dawn.
Some say, bullets could not touch him.
It took over 5,000 soldiers, 500 scouts, and 3,000 Mexican troops to
track down Geronimo and his band. After their capture, Geronimo and his
people were sent to prison camps in Florida, The few that didn't succumb
to disease were eventually moved to Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
Geronimo died on Feb. 17, 1909, a prisoner of war, unable to return to
his homeland. He was buried in the Apache cemetery at Fort Sill. It was
Geronimo's wish that his body be sent back to his native land, but even
in death his wishes were ignored. As bad as that is, it is nothing
compared to what happened to his corpse 9 years after his Spirit
continued on its journey.
In 1918, while stationed at the U.S. Army artillery training school at
Ft. Sill, Prescott Bush, grandfather of President George W. Bush, along
with Ellery James and Neil Mallon, broke into Geronimo's grave and
removed his skull.
Prescott Bush and his two friends were members of the Skull & Bones
Society, a highly secret order existing only at Yale University. The
American chapter of this German order was founded in 1833 at Yale
University by General William Huntington Russell and Alphonso Taft,
father of President William Howard Taft.
Each year the new pledges are ordered to steal a skull and bring it to
the "tomb" as the secret meeting room on Deer Island in the St. Lawrence
River is called. Today, Geronimo's skull is said to repose in a glass
case filled with turquoise chips.
In 1986, representatives of Skull and Bones-~~~among them George H.W.
Bush's brother, Jonathan.....-met with Ned Anderson, Apache tribal leader.
They offered him a skull, but Anderson refused to accept it because it
didn't look like the skull he had seen in a photograph that purported to
be Geronimo's skull. Later documents noted that the skull was in fact
that of a child! Anderson also refused to sign a document which would
have forbade anyone from discussing the incident.
Membership rolls of Skull & Bones reads like a Who's Who - Presidents,
Supreme Court Justices, Secretaries of State , Diplomats, National
Security advisers, Senators, publishing magnates, and C.I.A. recruits
fill the list.
I found it interesting that the Bay of Pigs operation~~-the covert C.I.A~~.-
financed invasion of Castro's Cuba,and was choreographed by Skull &
Bonesmen.
Richard Drain, Skull & Bones '# 43, was one of the C.I.A.'s
masterminds of the Bay of Pigs.
McGeorge Bundy, Skull and Bones '#40, was
the White House planner of the Bay of Pigs operation.
His brother, William P. Bundy, Skull & Bones '#39, was the State Department's liaison
for the Bay of Pigs.
And on and on it goes.....
Who has Geronimo's skull??? ???
That's a dirty little government secret.
"Blest be the man that spares these stones / And curst be he that moves
my bones." --- William Shakespeare
This is an old one :P but I was readin old stuff!
Geronimo captured my attention when I was a kid, he was and is one of my heroes. Deserved and deserves better than what he got. If they really got his skull they ought to give it back and show respect.
I've been to Geronimo's traditional burial site at Fort Sill at the Apache cemetery. My great grand father Amberg was garrisoned there at one time. The old post and the museums are very interesting. I don't remember anything about his skull going missing. Why would the Government care to have a big secret about it so many years later? To what benefit?
Diane,
Good observation.
This might help.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/051111.html
Thanks!. Good article. That stone pyramid over concrete is what I saw.
:P Geez, I was just commenting on Geronimos treatment period. They should have let him go home is all I had to say.
Pam, I agree. He was treated miserably and should have been allowed to go home.
Most political prisoners are treated poorly; it just depends what side of the fence you are on. Look at Abhu Graib in Iraq. :-\ :-\
Geronimo's skull, Bildergerger Society, UFO, paranormal, conspiracy theories,ghost stories, numerology and actual mainstream topics can be found on my favorite late night radio entertainment show. (for my fellow night owls). The show that you hate to admit that you listen to, but can't resist. The largest overnight talk show in the world.
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/
David
For those of you interested in Native American history I suggest The American West by Dee Brown. Living in California the history of the West is my favorite reading subject.
David
dnalexander..........
Very nice Brittany..
They ae the best of the best as far as I am concerned for hunting with. Stay in close and are usually calm.
You have a real beauty there. :)
Wahh----, we can't get coast to coast out here. I used to listed once in awhile at work. Loved it!
SDM many radio stations have a free internet feed of their radio broadcast where you can listen to the show live on your computer. From the coast to coast website you can see a list of who broadcasts the show, then go to that radio stations website and find which ones have a free internet broadcast feed that you can use to listen to the program.
David
Thanks, I'll check into it! :D
I have his skull. I keep my Nike golf balls in it that I use for putting. It has helped my game 10-fold....
I hardly ever miss a shot when I get to the green.
Thank you, Geronimo!
Maybe you can send one of his grandchildren one of YOUR relatives skulls to use for an ashtray.................
Quote from: Warph on July 14, 2008, 10:15:02 AM
I have his skull. I keep my Nike golf balls in it that I use for putting. It has helped my game 10-fold....
I hardly ever miss a shot when I get to the green.
Thank you, Geronimo!
This is certainly a "warped" sense of humor. I find absolutely nothing humorous about this statement. Where is your compassion?
Warph.. I have a *very warped * sense of humor..
and I probably shouldn't have..( as I do understand why flo didn't think it was funny..
but I smiled..
but I also grinned at Pam's response.
Of course you have to understand that I joke and laugh about lots of things that people would take offense to.
I don't mean anything by it ( when I do it) and generally the subject matter I'm flying off the wall with is one I take very seriously..
But something about taking something serious and just being able to lighten up and say something funny is part of my "warped" personality.
WARPH, that is not half as bad as Geronimo would do to you if he had had the chance. He may well have been one of the most vicious murderers of the Indian Wars. You better hope he isn't reincarnated.
Frank
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Whether or not Geronimo was a vicious murderer depended on which side you were on Frank.
Pam, from what I have read he was a vicious man no matter what side you were on. He seemed to have no remorse about killing woman or children. I can see his attitude about adult men but somehow I have a hard time thinking of him as a hero when he killed innocent, helpless and unarmed people, women and children.
Warph, if you have Geronimo's skull, then what do I have petunias in this year?
Wilma, you got him for sure.
Frank
Were the soldiers that killed HIS wife and children vicious murderers? Or were they just collateral damage?
Valid Point Pam, I can't remember seeing that in my Indian studies over the years, but I am sure it could have happened. On the other hand it would be relevant to know what the circumstances were.
Frank, I could say that because I am sure he doesn't know what I have petunias in.
Wilma, I saw Petunias planted somewhere in a Chamber Pot, was that you?
Kaskiyeh Massacre
Geronimo lost his whole family in the massacre of Kaskiyeh. This is his account of the massacre from his autobiography. Apache indian history.
Source: As told by GERONIMO, Public Domain Document
In the summer of 1858, being at peace with the Mexican towns as well as with all the neighboring Indian tribes, we went south into Old Mexico to trade.
Our whole tribe (Bedonkohe Apaches) went through Sonora toward Casa Grande, our destination, but just before reaching that place we stopped at another Mexican town called by the Indians Kas-ki-yeh.
Here we stayed for several days, camping outside the city. Every day we would go into town to trade, leaving our camp under the protection of a small guard so that our arms, supplies, and women and children would not be disturbed during our absence.
Late one afternoon when returning from town we were met by a few women and children who told us that Mexican troops from some other town had attacked our camp, killed all the warriors of the guard, captured all our ponies, secured our arms, destroyed our supplies, and killed many of our women and children.
Quickly we separated, concealing ourselves as best we could until nightfall, when we assembled at our appointed place of rendezvous--a thicket by the river.
Silently we stole in one by one: sentinels were placed, and, when all were counted, I found that my aged mother, my young wife, and my three small children were among the slain.
There were no lights in camp, so without being noticed I silently turned away and stood by the river. How long I stood there I do not know, but when I saw the warriors arranging for a council I took my place.
That night I did not give my vote for or against any measure; but it was decided that as there were only eighty warriors left, and as we were without arms or supplies, and were furthermore surrounded by the Mexicans far inside their own territory, we could not hope to fight successfully.
So our chief, Mangus-Colorado, gave the order to start at once in perfect silence for our homes in Arizona, leaving the dead upon the field.
I stood until all had passed, hardly knowing what I would do. I had no weapon, nor did I hardly wish to fight, neither did I contemplate recovering the bodies of my loved ones, for that was forbidden.
I did not pray, nor did I resolve to do anything in particular, for I had no purpose left.
I finally followed the tribe silently, keeping just within hearing distance of the soft noise of the feet of the retreating Apaches.
The next morning some of the Indians killed a small amount of game and we halted long enough for the tribe to cook and eat, when the march was resumed. I had killed no game, and did not eat.
During the first march as well as while we were camped at this place I spoke to no one and no one spoke to me--there was nothing to say.
For two days and three nights we were on forced marches, stopping only for meals, then we made a camp near the Mexican border, where we rested two days.
Here I took some food and talked with the other Indians who had lost in the massacre, but none had lost as I had, for I had lost all.
Within a few days we arrived at our own settlement. There were the decorations that Alope had made--and there were the playthings of our little ones. I burned them all, even our tepee. I also burned my mother's tepee and destroyed all her property.
I was never again contented in our quiet home. True, I could visit my father's grave, but I had vowed vengeance upon the Mexican troopers who had wronged me, and whenever I came near his grave or saw anything to remind me of former happy days my heart would ache for revenge upon Mexico.
No, Frank, that wasn't me. I am just a block north of Mary.
Pam, I liked your post from Geronimo's diary. It shows why some Indians were so unrelenting. This also says that it was Mexicans, not Americans, that did the destruction that day.
anyone remember the words of "yellow hair" to his soldiers who asked if they were to also kill children as they were raiding the indian village? "nits grow into lice" - this was just before they killed all moving things, men, women and children. There were needless killings on both sides of the fence. My objection to the "humor" about Geronimo's skull was the lack of compassion shown for a deceased, whether an indian chief or a soldier. I refrain from saying "American" because at that time, the Indians were the true Americans. We were merely the "whites"
flo..
point taken.. and I apologize for chuckling. :-[
But dang it.. you KNOW how I am.. in the most serious circumstances.. someone can say or do one teeny weeny little itty bitty thing and I start laughing..
glad we were not all in a room all serious....and you gave the scolding look to Warph..
I would have been a goner.. ;D
Quote from: pam on July 14, 2008, 11:28:20 AM
Maybe you can send one of his grandchildren one of YOUR relatives skulls to use for an ashtray.................
If his grandchildren are still living they can have ol' Tad Warph's skull. Hung as a hoss thief back in 1862 and buried in Goldsboro, N.C.,
he was a part time tobacco farmer and horse wrangler. They say he rolled his own cigars and smoked like a chimney. He was also known to poison his neighbors tobacco plants before harvest time so he could make a higher price on his own crop. A real SOB! His demise came when he tried to steal back seven horses he sold to the confederate army, was caught, was hung, end of story.
Here's the rundown on ol' Geronimo's life from thewildwest.org:
Geronimo / Goyathlay (1829-1909)
To other members of the Chiricahua (chair-i-cow-ah) Apache, Geronimo seemed to reflect all things they embraced as a people - courage, diligence and aggressiveness - qualities that for years kept them relatively safe from the increasing white encroachment in Arizona and New Mexico. The Chircahuas were nomadic, following game and farming in the warmer months. But when times were tough and food was scarce raids on other tribes was the way of life, and considered honorable.
Geronimo was born Goyathlay (One Who Yawns) in Arizona, grandson of a chief of the Nedni Apache, but his father married a Bedonkohe Apache and joined her tribe, thereby forfeiting his hereditary right as leader. Therefore, contrary to popular ideas, Geronimo was never a chief. He was a dutiful follower of many great chiefs though, including Cochise and Coloradas.
While many Europeans were trickling into the area, the Spanish were already firmly in place for years. The whites were a problem, but it was Mexican soldiers who raided and killed Geronimo's family - his mother, wife and three children. Prior to this event, Geronimo had been considered more a holy man than a warrior, but as a result of his loss he often spoke of his hatred for whites and coveted a vengeance that would bring him to kill as many as he could.
Geronimo's "white name" came as a result of his fearless and resourceful as a warrior. While leading a charge against Mexicans they began to shout "Geronimo!" seeking help from their patron saint, Jerome, or Geronimo in Spanish. Emerging conqueror over the Mexicans, the warriors bestowed the name of Geronimo on their fearless leader. To this day the name remains a battle cry.
The army tried to place all the Chiricahua on reservation in 1876, but Geronimo fled to Mexico and escaped capture for a decade. While the press is accused of "making news" these days, so it was then. The press had Geronimo everywhere and doing everything, often at the same time. The media image of Geronimo made him the most high-profile and feared of all the Apache. It wasn't all myth however. His name was associated with terror in the Southwest and ultimately it took more than 5,000 soldiers and 500 scouts to track down Geronimo and his followers.
He finally surrendered after hearing his people were being sent East. He was the very last renegade Indian to surrender to white authority. Geronimo was sent to a reservation in Florida for two years, where many died of malaria or tuberculosis. Geronimo longed to return to his beloved Arizona, but that was not to be so. He was to make another stop in Alabama before finally being placed on a reservation in Oklahoma, which at least bore a climate more similar to that of the Southwest. It was here, at Fort Sill, that he spent the last 14 years of his life.
In his old age, Geronimo learned a little English and how to write his name. He became very enterprising in his ability to market himself and his legacy, selling buttons from his coat for a quarter apiece, his hat for five dollars or bows and arrows that he made. For 50 cents, he would sign his name. If asked he would show off his battle wounds with pride. He also made personal appearances at places like Oklahoma fairs, the Exposition in Omaha in 1898, the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo in 1901, the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904 and Teddy Roosevelt's inaugural parade in 1905.
Despite making the rounds as an "attraction," Geronimo was never allowed to return to Arizona. As an old man, he remained a crack shot, and he enjoyed good health well into his 80s. Geronimo also drank, sometimes to excess and this ultimately was his demise. On a cold night in February of 1909, drunk, he fell off his horse and lay undiscovered on the cold ground. This brought on pneumonia and he died a few days later.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm189/plainsman1977/osra87.jpg)
posted this once before :P
There is also reams of documentation on the fact that Native Americans were totally ruthless with each other, too...they would slaughter entire villages, enslave the survivers, toture those who who were unlucky enough to fall prey to the attacking tribe, etc. Sad as it may be, this is the tale told over and over again in the history of the world...conquerers and the conquered. I'm sure that if the Greek Library had survived without being burned to the ground, the ancient scrolls would tell similar tales. I've often wondered what was in that Library...
Quote from: flo on July 14, 2008, 05:18:16 PM
anyone remember the words of "yellow hair" to his soldiers who asked if they were to also kill children as they were raiding the indian village? "nits grow into lice" - this was just before they killed all moving things, men, women and children. There were needless killings on both sides of the fence. My objection to the "humor" about Geronimo's skull was the lack of compassion shown for a deceased, whether an indian chief or a soldier. I refrain from saying "American" because at that time, the Indians were the true Americans. We were merely the "whites"
Maybe at the Little Bighorn "old Yellow Hair " said don't kill any Indians we are here to Smoke the pipe and drink JD and Branch water, and look what happened to him. I guess we will never know, I think the only survivor on our side was a horse.
Wait a minute...I thought there was one dude who escaped or missed the action? You mean to tell me that the only surviver was an animal?
One of the tales of the Comanche that I recall was when a lone tribal enemy was captured by a few men when out in a hunting party.
Alive, he was staked to the ground and then cooking wood placed over his body.
A fire would be started and the Comanche would cook their dinner over the man.
Custer split his 7th Cavalry into three battalions.
A lot of men survived at Little Big Horn, mainly those under Captain Benteen and Major Reno.
The group under Custer, however, did not.
There are some rumors that one man survived but nothing definitive has ever been established.
A common misperception is that a horse named Comanche belonging to Lt Miles Keogh was the only survivor.
However, there were several Army horses that survived the ordeal, many of them wounded, but the Army chose to tell the story of Comanche.
His body (the horse) is preserved at the University of Kansas.
Waldo, that is about the most vicious thing I have heard of, can you imagine the pain and suffering. I wonder why the Lord would allow that.
You and me both.
And it was not as though he was burned at the stake with a big bon fire, which would be bad enough.
It was slow and excruciating from a small fire.
Waldo was those Comanches that done that woman, woman can be twice as mean as men when you get them riled.
I done some work for an operator in Midland that his wife was suing him for Divorce and it really got nasty, she was the absolute meanest woman I have ever been around, I think she was capable of doing something like that to him. I knew another couple getting a divorce in Midland, the guy was running around on her, she went to ever bar in town and told all of the women that he had Aids.
The Comanches were all men.
After the battle at the Little Big Horn, women cleaned up the battlefield, so to speak.
They stripped the bodies and used knives to defile, although not everyone was touched and there are differing reports as to the extent of mutilation or how many were mutilated.
There are some reports that only the wounded were mutilated.
They stripped the bodies for a reason. All the clothing was put to use in their own life.
The mutilation was done in retaliation for the mutilation done by soldiers at the sand creek massacre.
Frank,
You might be aware of Cynthia Ann Parker. She was kidnapped by the Comanche from Parker's Fort near present day Waco when she was around eight years old. It was more of a compound than a fort and the only inhabitants was the Parker family and some friends. Her mom and dad were killed.
The raiding party took her to a Comanche village where she was adopted.
Due to her young age, she was apparently not bothered by the raiding party and she eventually became the mother of Quanah Parker. He who might be the most well known Comanche war chief.
Twenty-five years after her capture, she was repatriated by the Army. She did not want to leave but the Army gave her no other choice. She went to live with relatives but died at age 43 after trying to escape the whites several times.
A sixteen-year-old female kidnapped with her did not fare so well. She was constantly ravaged by the raiding party and when was given to a village became the community toy for all the young males.
When she became pregnant, she was given to one of the older warriors who did not have a wife. One evening
when the older guy had some of his friends over for the evening, he forced his wife and baby to sit out in the cold until his company left.
After they left, she complained about having to sit outside and the baby being cold. He literally destroyed the baby in front of her eyes.
She was able to escape to Santa Fe around her 19th birthday and was then able to get on a trade wagon train going to Independence, Mo on the Santa Fe Trail.
She stayed with relatives there but died soon thereafter. Doctors of the time said she died of old age.
Quote from: W. Gray on July 15, 2008, 01:54:04 PM
One of the tales of the Comanche that I recall was when a lone tribal enemy was captured by a few men when out in a hunting party.
Alive, he was staked to the ground and then cooking wood placed over his body.
A fire would be started and the Comanche would cook their dinner over the man.
Is this documented or a tale
Quanah Parker is also buried at Fort Sill. The Comanache were known to be extremely fierce in their treatment of people, but I don't how many of the old tales are just that, tales. Some supposedly were intended to scare children, and some may be completely true.
As is Cynthia Ann Parker
I can believe the cooking fire instance.
There is another tale that I have heard or read about several times and I am of the opinion that it is an urban legend, but I really do not know.
I first heard of it in my twenties in Viet Nam. In this case, GIs who shot female Viet Cong soldiers dead were supposed to have cut out a certain portion of the anatomy, somehow made it into leather, and used it for a coin purse. I have never seen a GI with a coin purse although I suppose it could happen.
I have since read in two different sources about U.S. Cavalry troopers in the Indian wars doing the same thing after killing Indian women but using it for a tobacco pouch.
I am of the opinion it is not true.
When I was in high school, I did a small research paper on the Indian wars. I ran into some information about this and it made me so ashamed. I don't doubt it a bit. They called them a female scalp.
My late husband was a great sympathizer of the American Indian. He read all the time about them, and I have read some of that material. They were fierce and that is true, but the whites were just as monstrous if not worse as they were supposed to be civilised, and good Christians at that! Some of the stories that came out of the areas of the great lakes areas early in the settling of our country are hair raising. By the way, Dons' Indian hero was Chief Joseph of the Souix.
He is the fellow who made the famous speech to his people" "I will fight no more forever."
Guess who captured him? Our own General Oliver Otis Howard of Howard, Kansas, fame.
Chief Joseph was in Elk County once.
After he and his people were trying to escape from the northwest in Oregon, I think, and trying to get to Canada. General Howard caught them about fifty miles from the Canadian border. After their capture, they were sent from Montana to Fort Leavenworth for a while and then marched south down through Elk County to Indian Territory.
One of the Howard newspapers reported the event.
I know the Army eventually let him go back to the northwest but I do not know about the bulk of his people.
I forgot to add that Chief Joseph was Nez Perce.
You are right, my error. Nez Perce is correct. I did not know that he had been in Elk County though. Small world indeed, and the part about General Howard, Don would have liked knowing that.