I have a question for anybody that can provide a logical answer....
Over the last couple of years it seems that our county has taken a strange turn. Used to be that when faced with a challenge the people of the community would come together and come up with a solution to whatever problem faced them. However, recently this has not been the case. Meetings meant to gain the opinions and insights of our citizens have had to be steered in certain directions. Leaving the impression that the "solution" has already been pre-determined. This point is illustrated by the fact that various community leaders seem to be unqualified or unable to lead a simple discussion and need help to "facilitate" these discussions and meetings.
So my question is why are these community leaders still holding the job if they are unable to do it? Are our school board officials unable to ask our community what it thinks should happen with our schools? Are our elected commissioners unable to ask questions of the voting public? Is the "good ole' boy" system so ingrained within this county that we are unable to see that we are being "taken for a ride" where our tax dollars and elected officals are concerned?
Just a few questions that I would like honest answers for. Thank you.
I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.....and if my connections can come and do it for a special price, and give me kudos, then vote for me!
Does that work?
ready
Not really, Ready. But thanks for trying.
What I am looking for is the actual reason why our officials seem scared or unqualified to do the job they signed up for.
Maybe the officials are tired of being criticized and crucified for every decision they make, be it good or be it bad. Maybe they want outsiders to make recomendations so that they can't be accussed of favoritism. Maybe?
I seriously doubt any of them are "tired" or afraid of criticisim, or that they will be accused of favoritism.
These groups touting "facilitators" have been in training in our liberal universities for some time now, and it would appear that they have a foot in the door here. I'm sure their initial approach seems quite positive and helpful. It is their real agenda that concerns me.
Our community leaders should certainly be intelligent and knowledgeable enough to make decisions without them.
Quote from: Wilma on December 07, 2012, 08:08:49 AM
Maybe the officials are tired of being criticized and crucified for every decision they make, be it good or be it bad. Maybe they want outsiders to make recomendations so that they can't be accussed of favoritism. Maybe?
Wilma, first off let me say that I am not trying to start an argument here, or stir the pot (I know, thats a first). But if our officals actually took the time to meet with the public, and get their input, and base their decisions off of that input, wouldn't that eliminate the criticism and such? If not all of it, then at least a big part of it?
And, give the recent amount conterversy over using outsiders to govern our community, do you feel that this is the wisest thing to do?
Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 07, 2012, 09:56:54 AM
I seriously doubt any of them are "tired" or afraid of criticisim, or that they will be accused of favoritism.
Our community leaders should certainly be intelligent and knowledgeable enough to make decisions without them.
Bullwinkle, I agree! But that begs the question, if they are uncapable of doing the job the why do they keep getting elected?
The school board keeps getting elected because they are doing a great job providing an education to the students. West elk students get more scholarships on a percentage basis that any school around. West elk students do well in college and many of them are honor students in their respective universities and colleges.
Do you know of any Elk County citizens that could do the job better than the ones that have been elected. Unfortunately, not many of our citizens are well enough educated or experienced to do a job that requires a lot of knowledge in a lot of different fields. And then when one does show up, he is so criticized and bad mouthed that he seeks employment somewhere else. Wouldn't giving our officials credit for what they do under less than desirable circumstances, be more beneficial than blasting them all the time?
Wilma, you said it all very well. I think there are a lot of people that agree with you.
Elk@KC you bring up some really good points about the students of West Elk. If what you say is true, and I'm assuming it is, then why the need for outside help?
Wilma, there is always someone better, no matter what the job is. But I can see your point about critizing someone all the time. But do you think an elected offical should be immune to critizicism jsut because "they're doing the best they can"? Or should they use said critizicism as a means to measure their job performance?
Criticism is rather 'subjecitive' to the critic?
Most of time those who are chastised, are by ones that either doen't understand the situation, or 'didn't get their way'.
Without understanding of the whole picture, it paints a whole different picture....one that may not appear to be true.
I don't think 'another set of eyes' or ideas is what we need to be spending our monies on, IMO. (Consultant)
ready
Constant criticism is non-productive and daily blasts of criticism is considered constant. In my case, it turns me off. I no longer hear it and how could I use it as a constructive tool if I am not hearing it? Any teacher or psychiatrist will tell you that constant criticism is counter productive. Praise goes so much further. A little bit of honey catches more flies than a gallon of vinegar.
Bringing in an outside Facilitator may well save the School system money and/or improve the teaching methods in several ways. Teaching methods, Programs, Monies available all change constantly and spending few dollars to find out how it will fit a specific school system is a good thing. I would consider it a wise investment.
Frawin:
What will they do that the board was and perhaps unable to do? And do we have the money to make this investment right now?
Just wondering. Education is the upmost importance....so, why are there other goals if that first criteria is not met? Looks like it is from the awards of West Elk.
ready (insert commas where needed)
Quote from: readyaimduck on December 08, 2012, 08:45:18 AM
What will they do that the board was and perhaps unable to do?
ready
Not to say whether it's a good or bad idea, but an outside facilitator can be objective - no prior history.
Okay..ya'll bring up some really good points! But if that facilitator leads the discussions with preplanned questions doesn't that give the impression that the outcome is also predetermined, making the public input null and void?
preplanned questions to question. True, however one has to start somewhere? What would be your first question be and what was theirs? (I wasn't at the meeting)
Mine would be: What are some of the issues that cannot be met that I can can help you with today?
(I am in NOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo way affiliated with these Facilitators.)
ready
That facilitator should have a plan or preplanned questions. Otherwise, something important might be overlooked. That facilitator should have a lot more experience in this sort of planning than what out local people have. That facilitator probably has helped with other districts and is aware of problems that could arise that our local people have never heard of. Preplanned questions does not necessarily mean that it will lead to a desired outcome. Preplanned questions just mean that important points are less likely to be missed.
Good point, Wilma. And I will add that as long as the questions do not hold a "hidden agenda", then that is ideal.
Perhaps that is the question.
And, that may or may not be the issue with this thread?????
ready..... for a response
Why not give them the benefit of cooperation instead of immediately jumping to the conclusion that they have a hidden agenda? Do you know that anyone has a hidden agenda? And if you do, how do you know? Do you know what the preplanned questions are? Our best bet is to be quiet and listen until the meeting or whatever is happening. Then attend the meeting, listen and ask questions, listen to the answers and learn. I would have to hide in the closet all night if I assumed that every sound that I hear at night is a monster.
Holy buckets Wilma....you just sounded like Ross!!!!!!!!!! :o
I don't know what is going on. I am an educator am trying to give the benifit of the doubt. Unfortunately, wolves come in with sheeps clothing, as the adage is.
I have learned long ago that the uneducated, abused, and uncaring will eat anything you give them.
Just asking.
Keep quiet? okay, I will give you that.
Listen...yes we should.
Perhaps this is not the venue (internet) to prove anything, I am thinking!
ready
I know I sound like Ross on some things, but I promise you that I won't keep repeating it.
So what questions would you want asked?
What points do you think should be brought up?
1. What is the percentage breakdown of the actual 2012/2013 budget?
2. What percentge is spent for athletics, music/arts, science/technology, Administrative costs?
3. What are the (next 5 year) concerns of the our full time instructors? What are their limitations due to the budget?
4. What are the present concerns of our parents?
5. What are your (Admninistration) goals to include parents in the educational process?
ready
(cont) Based on projected budgets, which department(s) failed to operate within their budget, and what was the breakdown of monies spent for what area?
What differences have been implemented to assure this deficit is not a reoccuring issue?
What is the ratio of techer to pupil? What is the sq ft ratio of pupil to room?
Do you as an instructor feel you have adequate supplies?
Do you as an instructor supply your own supples? What % of your salary?
ready ....to stop
Good questions - Thanks!
Again some reallly good points! I think that I would start a discussion by asking the teachers, school board members, and faculty, just what they thought that we could do better? I agree that an "outsider" might be able to see things more objectievly but at the same time they wouldn't really have a feel for our community. I think that is important espcially when making decisions that will affect not only peoples jobs, but our children as well.
I bring up the topic of facilitators because of the recent conterversy over our Community Conversations. I am in no way trying to belittle anyone, I would just like an honest discussion about some of the things that our county is facing.
For example, shouldn't school board officals keep themselves up to date on the latest trends and challenges of the education system? Granted, they may have accepted the job without fully realizing what it entailed, but if they fell they cannot do the job then shouldn't they admit that and step down?
Again, I am not saying that any of our officals met that description, its just a question.
I don't believe that the "outsider" would be making any decisions. Just collecting information and thoughts for the local officials to act on and offering advice from their knowledge and experience.
Yes, the people that make the decisions should keep themselves up to date, but sometimes they don't have the time to find all the up to date information and digest it.
A facilitator woudn't have a feel for the locals, but on the other hand, they don't need to as they don't make the decisions that affect the locals. The recent controversy over the Community Conversations was only a lot of malarkey started by a dissonant just because of his own unpleasant experience.
QuoteI don't believe that the "outsider" would be making any decisions. Just collecting information and thoughts for the local officials to act on and offering advice from their knowledge and experience.
Wilma, you are spot on with that statement, if and only if the facilitator is there to help.
Since I have been out of the field of education, and not as a 'hired gun' for nursing homes, are the School Boards required to attend and 'update' so to speak as to ways and means of the new trends and practices like the teachers are? (ongoing educational credits)
Is the board comprised of people of whom have been there forever and ever or are they relative recently elected?
ready
Quote from: Wilma on December 09, 2012, 04:04:56 PM
The recent controversy over the Community Conversations was only a lot of malarkey started by a dissonant just because of his own unpleasant experience.
Or, perhaps, your rigid analysis comes from a lack of fact and factual analysis. Rather than simply labeling someone a dissonant, you could refute their analysis with fact and not your personal conjecture. 'Malarky' just seems to lack any measurable substance. Do you have some supportable facts from which others could benefit?
Let's just call it IMHO.
If our local people aren't sure what to do, who is? As I grew up, I saw all of my friends, classmates and their Parents pretty regular. Most of those parents were the Boy Scout leaders, 4-H leaders, Kiwanis members, all of those groups that are disentregating. In My Humble Opinion, they did a great job. Sure, places with more money can put up big sucess numbers, but I think somewhere on here it was mentioned that our students are excelling in many areas. We may be one of the last few communities that have not fallen to the "status quo".
This all smells to me of an underlying want to put forth an agenda for building construction . Something that should have been done the last go round. It would have been cheaper then, in the long run.
To talk about the Moline and Severy buildings. It isn't feasible to maintain and keep utilites up in three locations given our population. Perhaps at some point they can be utilized.
so basically what you are insinuating is that the last decisions were screwed, so now let's trash the original ideal and build anew?
Bandaids only work for so long, and hindsight is 20-20, and we are all arm chair quaterbacks. Ot's okay to say, I was wrong...let's regroup.
ready
I think that when you become aware of the actual conditions out at West Elk, that you will see that something needs to be done. Utilizing the facilities in Severy and Moline might be feasible except that I understand that the facility in Severy has been sold. The reason for vacating them was that the district could not afford to maintain them. Since I haven't been in the Severy facility since my last kid started coming to Howard to school in 1973, I do not know what the conditions were. I would prefer almost anything to having our children bussed to Independence or Fredonia, etc.
Have you ever visited a town where the school has been abandoned? You should, then consider whether or not you want that for this community.
I don't know how you could utilize the Severy or Moline buildings, if you did you would have to bus the severy kids to moline or bus the moline kids to severy, neither Is feasible in my opinion. Not only would it be hard on the kids, the busing costs would be high. In addition the heating and cooling of the old buildings would be really expensive.
I haven't been to the West Elk School. Is the BOE located within the school? Or, is it off site?
reay
If by BOE you mean administration, on-site, separate building.
Thank you.
ready
Quote from Wilma:
The recent controversy over the Community Conversations was only a lot of malarkey started by a dissonant just because of his own unpleasant experience.
Wilma,
I'm surprised of you. After all the talk of wanting the forum to go back to the good ol days, before name calling and personal attacks, and then you casually throw this in. :angel:
Kind of lost my head there, didn't I?
So now your head is looking around saying "I ain't got nobody".......
Couldn't resist.
Ready....to stay a 'head' of the thread!
Quote from: Wilma on December 09, 2012, 04:04:56 PM
I don't believe that the "outsider" would be making any decisions. Just collecting information and thoughts for the local officials to act on and offering advice from their knowledge and experience.
Yes, the people that make the decisions should keep themselves up to date, but sometimes they don't have the time to find all the up to date information and digest it.
A facilitator woudn't have a feel for the locals, but on the other hand, they don't need to as they don't make the decisions that affect the locals. The recent controversy over the Community Conversations was only a lot of malarkey started by a dissonant just because of his own unpleasant experience.
Wilma, I see what you are saying about the "outsider" not making any decisions, but it seems to me that in a round-about way thye are. By leading a disucssion with preplanned questions they are only gathering information on those questions, which might not have anything to do with the needs of our county schools. As for not having the time to keep up to date...no offense but that is part of their job.
I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about the actual West Elk school building. What are some of the issues that are going on there? Is it that there are safety violations, hazardous conditions, or just a want of a bigger school? I'm not trying to start anything, just want to know what the issues are?
Varmit, my information is second hand, so I am not going to try to repeat it. Other people, who actually work there can better answer your questions.
One problem with the grade school modulars is that the children are shoulder to shoulder, crowded beyond what any kid should have to endure 6 hours a day.
jprxmkt, overcrowding can be a problem and cause undue issues. I haven't seen the inside of the modulars. How many kids are in each one?
K-6 have from 17 to 25 per class.
Is there more than one grade to a modular? How about resource room, library, etc?
Each modular has two classrooms. Part of 3rd grades meets in the elementary library in the morning.
Not having seen the blueprints, I must ask... is the problem one of a lack of resources, or of an inability to properly manage the available resources. Given the knee jerk reactions to events I've personally observed with respect to leadership (?) in county operations, one has to wonder. I guess the question is... is our real problem a shortage of money & square footage or a shortage of creative leadership?
Personal opinion (obviously) -
The real shortage is space. There isn't enough of it.
We don't have enough classrooms, so some classes meet in other rooms (both libraries, cafeteria, etc.), thus denying full functionality of those rooms. One teacher doesn't have a room at all, just travels around with everything on a cart.
I think, for its age, the building is well-maintained. For several years, maintenance was reactionary. A lot of it is now pro-active, preventative.
One of the disadvantages of the modulars: in inclement weather, for the students to use the main building (p.e., lunch, music, library), they have to get dressed for outside weather, arrive, remove outer clothing, participate, get dressed again, return to classroom, remove outer clothing. For little kids, that takes up time that could better be used with instruction.
Patriot, the current facility was designed for junior high and senior high classes. At that time there was enough enrollment to justify a building that size. There was also enough grade school and kindergarten enrollment to justify having two buildings. Eventually the enrollment dropped to the place that the two grade schools were combined with all of the children of one grade going to one or the other of the school buildings. This involved bussing Severy kids to Moline and Moline kids to Severy. Howard kids were bussed to the facility that housed their grade. I don't remember for sure, but it seems to me that the lower grades went to Moline and the upper grades to Severy. The current facility was not designed to house K thru 8, plus 4 years of high school. Thus there is a shortage of classrooms in the main building, plus the library and resource room having to be in the main building. I don't know what the thinking was when the high school was built, but I doubt that if there had been room allowed for including the grades, that it would not have passed the vote and the high school and jr. high would still be going to the old three story brick building was that located just north of where the extension office is now.
My memory is probably flawed on this as I don't have anything to do with the schools now except for having a daughter working there and three great grandchildren attending classes. There are others that know more about how this situation came about. If the new grade school had been voted for, we wouldn't have this predicament now. Voting it down didn't reduce our taxes any. I would be interested in knowing how the cost of doing what we are doing now compares to the what the cost of building a new school would have been.
Would there be justification for spending an extension/add-on of the existing building? Enough to encompass the present K-6 with a 10-15% increase? (Never build for now, build for the future).
Or weatherize a breezeway from the Modulars to the main building somehow?
ready
I think, that if it is possible, the best thing would be to visit the school and ask for a tour, especially a peek into one of the modulars while the students are present.
Quote from: readyaimduck on December 12, 2012, 05:41:58 PM
Or weatherize a breezeway from the Modulars to the main building somehow?
ready
I understand that a bid has been let to do just that. The cost is around $18,000.
I wonder, though, if the main building was originally designed to house over 600 students, there must be enough total footage. I realize that space was probably intended to house only 3 or 4 grades, so there is undoubtedly a problem now with the total number of classrooms. Is it possible that interior remodeling of the existing footage (by installing walls and doors) could be made to increase the total number of useable rooms, thereby accommodating a larger number of students in differing grades in the space available? That might be more cost effective than new construction and make better use of existing space. Just trying to 'think
inside the box', as it were.
Was it ever established that the original building was designed to accommodate 600 students? I find it hard to believe that there was ever 600 students in 282.
Good thoughts Patriot for your thoughts in the box. Puts it into perspective as a student.
When we went to school, the grades, gym and lunch room were all in one building.
Now, look at it from a birds-eye-view: 20 kids (active are most of them, with some that have disabilities) in one space and 1 teacher.
However, not to be a pessimistic yet rather the pro/con type: Wouldn't putting up more walls and doors deduct from the existing space?
ready...... to build a new future.
(edited for correct English)
Quote from: readyaimduck on December 12, 2012, 08:27:26 PM
However, not to be a pessimistic yet rather the pro/con type: Wouldn't putting up more walls and doors deduct from the existing space?
Yes,but only to the extent that new walls, in and of themselves, would eliminate some small amount of useable space.
So let us say those walls eliminated the space needed for 75 students (arbitrary figure, to be sure). If the total number of classrooms gained were sufficient to properly house the existing elementary student body in the main building (while still maintaining adequate safety/comfort factors consistent with the original design criteria), wouldn't that be an approach that solves the initial/existing problem(s)?
Like I said, I haven't seen the blueprints, but maybe somebody should look. Ultimately, if the idea would work, it would surely be far less costly than new construction from the ground up (land preparation, foundations, windows, electrical service, heating/cooling, etc.).
I really think that was taken into consideration at the start of this problem. Maybe before you do any more conjecturing, you should ascertain if the rooms in the original building are big enough to be divided into usuable space. Possibly, if the rooms were so divided, we would wind up with more rooms not large enough for the number of students involved.
Quote from: Wilma on December 12, 2012, 09:32:59 PM
I really think that was taken into consideration at the start of this problem. Maybe before you do any more conjecturing...
And your conjecturing is better than mine? Give me a break, Wilma. I've said TWICE that I haven't seen the blueprints. Notice I also mentioned
maintaining adequate safety/comfort factors consistent with the original design criteria. I simply suggested that perhaps the people elected or hired to solve the problem might consider doing so. If the concept has already been considered or is too complicated, then maybe they need to hire an outside consultant... oh, wait, they
have hired a consultant. But was that a premature action? Don't know.
Seems to me that if one were able to pick up a dozen sufficient classrooms the whole situation might be well on the way to a fix, without the much higher costs of new construction. It is, after all, the taxpayers money we're talking about here.
I think it will probably take doing both , some restructuring, and new building. The overcrowded grades are K-6. That is not the case in the upper grades, some of which have a handfull of students, so room division should be an option. I can agree with the need for a second gym, more so than classrooms, and it could be designed to provide classroom space as well, since it wouldn't need spectator space as it would simply be a "practice" gym so to speak. A look at the overall floor plan and a consultation with an architect would be my path to take.
I am not really familiar with the entire structure, but picking up a dozen new classrooms within the present structure doesn't sound possible to me. I hear that the library is already being used for classes. I also do not have a problem with outside advice. After all, architects are outside help, aren't they?
It would be nice if someone would get input from the people who actually use the place. What do they want/need?
Without the schoolboard's blessing, their ideas may be like snowflakes flalling on a hot stove. (cleaned up my analogy for the general population!) :angel:
ready
Quote from: readyaimduck on December 13, 2012, 05:31:03 PM
Without the schoolboard's blessing, their ideas may be like snowflakes flalling on a hot stove. (cleaned up my analogy for the general population!) :angel:
ready
Good point, ready. And very consistent with my observations of local process. "Leadership" seems to have a very limited ability to accept 'outside' input, unless that input comes from very limited and 'approved' circles. Kinda like that good ole boy networking thing.
If you read the thread, Diane, there are several inputs from" people who use the place", and since my children and grandchildren attend classes, I would say that I am "using the place" ::)
Hopefully something can be done without the rivalry that occurred last go round. It "is" about getting our kids a good education. The facilities don't have to be state of the art, but the teaching should be.
Unless you have designed a school, Wilma, then it is wise to ask someone who has, how to best make use of the available space, and what addition would be necessary to fill the needs. Unless you want to fritter away money on something that won't work.
Was I trying to design a school?
I have helped design two elementary schools, including K's ,two middle schools and now a Jr.- Sr. high school. I'm a little too far away to help you though. :angel:
I was to referring to the teachers and staff who would know best how areas can be moved around and what can be doubled up, or what doesn't need specially made classrooms in terms of furniture size, special equipment or noise control. Every state has requirements as to square footage per child, the size of desks and sinks, water fountains, air exchange and such.There is also lots of good information and examples on the internet. It hasn't been that many years ago that schools didn't need wireless anything, or computer labs either. Such are the changes we all face.and now no cursive? very strange. Or not...
Teachers are very clever at using every nook and cranny that is available.
I first thought that too, Diane. However, in this day and age, if anyone suggests any concrete evidence or just a constructive critisim on an open forum, it could be construed by the school board, et al as 'bad mouthing' their empolyer. I don't think any staff or more importantly teachers will cut their own throats.
That is what the school meetings are for, to voice their opinion. We/you as taxpayers on the otherhand have to reiterate their suggestions.
ready
ROFLMAO . You helped design schools. Is there no limit to your expertise ?
Ditto, Bull
I would like to thank everyone that has posted to this thread! There were several good ideas for improving the facility that we have without spending a boat load of money that we don't have. This conversation proves my point that facilitators are not needed unless they are being used to bring about an already predetermined "solution". Like I said before, officals are put into place based on their precieved abilities to do the job, if they can't then they need to step down. With the combined experience, education, and knowledge of our officals and local population it just doesn't make sense to waste money on advisiors or facilitators.
I was on a committee of teachers, staff, adminstration, school board, and community members when the consolidation to one campus happened a few years. We had the complete blueprint of the entire facility and we did just as you are talking about. We visually moved rooms around, combined offices that could be and looked at every room and closet (I am not kidding about the closets). With everyone working together we came up with roughly what is being used now. One of the larger closets was, at that time, being used by a tutor and student. Is this good enough for our children? Is this fair to them? To expect them to learn to be productive members of society when we are putting them in a closet to learn (metaphor only and exaggeration). The current high school rooms are absolutely not big enough to put a wall down to "create" 2 classrooms. They are a comfortable size for the high school class sizes now and the building was never built to hold 600 kids. (Maybe if you have the gymnasium full for a sporting event but not actively learning students areas) Yes, you could build a covered, closed in walkway between the modulars and the main building but that still doesnt fix the overcrowding inside. The junior high kids who are not in sports have to have PE in the cafeteria or the weight room because the gym for sports practice last hour of the day.
QuoteWhat I am looking for is the actual reason why our officials seem scared or unqualified to do the job they signed up for
Okay, Varmit....this was your original question.
So I wonder what is the task at hand in their eyes? What 'facilitated' the facilitators?
Sometimes, things need to be done to make things better (ambiguous, I know) however an 'outsider' can look with fresh eyes as long as the ultimate goal is that of the taxpayers.
How long have the board been 'onboard'? Sometimes burnout is evident after 5-8 years, and the newbies are totally overwhelmed.
ready
jprx:
Great recap of the steps toward the present! Thank you.
ready
Thanks Julie, that's exactly how it should be done with an existing school.
Al and I help design schools, Charter Schools....started with a project, but not a school, in 1984 . in 2001 we were asked if we would consider pairing up and using our particular expertise to act as the owners' reps for the new Newark Charter School. So we did. We interviewed and were hired by the board. That led, by word of mouth, to two others, including Providence Creek Charter in Clayton Del.
I meet /met with the teachers to see what they wanted if money were no object, and paired it down from there. In your case the building exists, so there are plans to look at and make decisions from.
For us ,it's things such as square or rectangular rooms ,windows that open or not, cubbies or lockers, lockable doors with coat hooks and shelves for the teachers, water in the classrooms or not? And on and on. It's much easier to get it right the first time than to redo it. (Actually the second year the elementary school was open ,they did expand and built several new classrooms and moved the library.)
Al takes the whole thing through the permitting and planning process and meets with the fire marshal, building inspector etc. gets the paperwork for run off, plantings ,storm water drainage, checking for bus turning radius problems and all sorts of things that someone has to do, and meets with city officials as necessary. The other two schools turned out so well, the city is being very cooperative with this one.
Here we help choose the builder and architects based on their presentations and what sized projects they've done in the past. We prefer design-build.
We help choose wall and floor surfaces, colors etc. For example we designed kids' bathrooms with no hall doors. (My idea)The entries are curved around, but open. Freshly cleaned hands stay clean... no cross contamination for door handles on the way out and noise monitoring is easier. There are also no dedicated male rest rooms. We have women's rooms and those that can be used for either. We have never had a complaint and we saved a lot of money.
We meet weekly or, more often as needed, with all the trades and subs to see what's what and solve problems on behalf of the owner. Al just met with the new drama teacher to design the storage spaces and what not behind the stage and we met with the person who will be designing the lighting. many of the teachers have already been hired for next fall and are eagerly joining in and making great suggestions.
So what is your problem you, two? Why would I make this up?
When you hire a design/ build contractor, such as Simpson & Sons, the company that built the existing school, they do not need nor request help from the peanut gallery. They use architects that have been designing schools for years. They deal with the people that hire them, the school board. They have built thousands of schools over the years. Now called Simpson & Associates, they built the grade school I attended. Jerry Simpson is no longer at the helm. His son Bob is, and still building quality schools and churches among other things.
Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 17, 2012, 08:59:43 AM
When you hire a design/ build contractor, such as Simpson & Sons, the company that built the existing school, they do not need nor request help from the peanut gallery. They use architects that have been designing schools for years. They deal with the people that hire them, the school board. They have built thousands of schools over the years. Now called Simpson & Associates, they built the grade school I attended. Jerry Simpson is no longer at the helm. His son Bob is, and still building quality schools and churches among other things.
Technically, you are accurate as far as who is hired. However...School districts have committees/individuals who guide those architects. Yes, a 'peanut gallery' is utilized, to make sure that the company doing the work puts in what that community needs to make the physical plant as usable as is possible. It would help if you had actually worked within a school system, had been a contributing member of such a committee or had even attended a planning session for any school. Simply having shown up physically in a school, to attend class, doesn't count toward that end.
Bull, you could not be more wrong! If one has a "not to exceed" budget you'll have every cent spent as the particular budget dictates without even looking at it. If you include the so called "peanut gallery,'' ( UGG!) then if you can find ways to save money in one area by finding out what is really needed, not just wanted. Any extra money can then be spent in other areas. Even choosing one kind of wood over another can help.( just as an example.)
Some architects are more interested in designing buildings that will win awards than buildings that meet the needs of the owner.
We are able to use standard construction on the outside, rather than school style block construction...comes in much cheaper and the kids do not tear it up. But you have to know...it won't be offered. Goofy things like saving money by not painting the walls that will be behind the kid's lockers in the high school. That saved a lot! We had to request bull nose block corners at the gym doors or it would not have been done.
Even reliable builders with years of experience should want and welcome guidance and cooperation. That way they can avoid frustrating and expensive change orders.That is especially true when dealing with plumbing, fire sprinklers, heating and electricity. I'd share some funny stories, but the dark hearted ones will just fuss.
Doing a retro fit is different of course, if you are going to work entirely within the existing building foot print.
My personal advice ..ya got a builder who doesn't want to work with a small consistent group or owners rep... don't hire them! It's the owners' money! Now, just anybody should not be tossing out advice directly to the builder either. There should be a conduit from all interested parties through a rep to the construction manager and architect, depending on how far along the project is. In our case it's the principal, Al and myself.
The board here gets updates, but does not want to be tied up with weekly meetings ,or more often as needed. That is our job. We always manage to pay for ourselves by the savings we find.
Cat ,good post..you get it!
Good luck. Sorry you'll have the skeptics at it again.
Nah...The closet intellectuals will chime in and provide the comic relief to what has been a sad weekend so far. Let the howling begin...
If having actually built several schools makes me a "closet intellectual" then , I confess. Some making input obviously have no knowledge of local codes, inspection, required material, or anything else. Permits are pulled by the general contractor and inspectors meet and sign off with each subcontractor as well as the job superintendent. Walk-throughs are done periodically by the board members with the architect and general contractor. Weekly safety and progress meetings are attended by the foremen from all trades. OSHA is invited to inspect work in progress and make reccomendations before there are safety issues. No suprise visits. Before the job is complete, the architect makes a punch list to correct any issues. The fire department also does an inspection, both of the blueprints before construction and as work progresses.
Bathrooms with an alcove entry? I guess the Wal-mart architects stole that one from you. No designation as to sex? I bet that causes a few suprises. Bull nose block on corners, standard procedure, even on window openings. There is a miniscule amount of wood used. It is a fire consideration and is not durable, nor tornado resistant. Wood is expensive here as well. If you have trouble with kids tearing up your building, wood is definitely not the correct choice. A masonry building is cheapest in the long run, low maintenance. Most hall ways they use burnished block, doesn't require paint. Haydite block are used behind the lockers, cheaper. Designated hallways or rooms are fully grouted and reinforced with concrete caps for tornado shelter. It sounds like to me, your local architects and/or contractors aren't up to speed. Not with what is required here. As far as input from anyone else, that happens with the school board before the plans are given the go ahead. After that it is a change order and will cost you. The subcontractors bid the job by the prints they are handed at the start. If they don't charge for a change, they lose money, unless you are eliminating something. And even then, good luck getting them to take less money. Chew on that , master builder of three schools. I know, that wasn't neccesary. :P
One more thing. Architects win awards for designing on budget, functional, and durable buildings. Not just for asthetics. Good luck getting one for yourself from a credible source. :o
I don't mind having my money invested in education in any way.
It appears some grades have had a small explosion in attendance. To build in response to that is fine with me, but will it be needed in the future? As I said previously, a practice gym , or multi-purpose room to solve the overflow, perhaps 4-6 classrooms and bathrooms included in the expansion. One good thing to consider, design with expansion in mind. May be needed , maybe not.
I would rather see more money spent to gain quality teachers and retain them. You can have the greatest facility money can buy and not be giving the kids what they need most. Qualified, caring teachers.
Hey Cat, how about coming back and teach our kids?
Varmit, to get back to how this started, we had a bond issue fail, to expand the facilities. It was a bit backwards as to what should have happened. The consolidation should have come before, so that the people could see the need to streamline our school system. Then, you plan facility expansion to accomidate the result and put it before the people. Not the reverse.
Part of the problem has been the reluctance of the people to consolidate. No one wants their hometown school to disappear. But isn't more important to provide our kids with the best we can as efficiently as possible?
Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 17, 2012, 06:16:06 PM
Hey Cat, how about coming back and teach our kids?
I treasured the years I spent in Elk County. When I left, I felt like I had left my job unfinished due to the fact that in a bunch of families, I had taught all of the kids except the very youngest siblings...lol...Made me feel guilty for having made the decision to move my family. I still follow a bunch of my former students closely. It gives me great, great joy to see how all of them have gone forward, being gainfully employed, achieving, stellar individuals! :angel:
By the way...You are absolutely correct about some on the advisory committees not knowing their way through the building codes and practices. Most don't. That is where patience is called for on the part of the professionals involved. Unfortunately, the world of education isn't quite like the rest of the civilian world...There are more cooks than there is counter space when it comes to getting a physical plant constructed.
Thanks Cat. For the sentiment and knowledge.
Cat, that is exactly why we were hired. That was Al's professional history after all. The artificial stucco (Drive it) on the outside is holding up very well and we don't miss the block hallways. Standard construction has worked out fine. We have hurricane and 24 inch roof snow standards, but don't have to worry much about tornadoes, thank goodness. We get them, but they aren't those huge things you get.
Right now Al is signing off on the latest round of invoices so the guys can get paid. The board is very happy with the arrangement. Fortunately, they know that they don't know. ;)
Hey Bull ,nothing wrong with the way you do things. We are just able to do it cheaper and that is important because we have to raise our own building funds. Being a charter school there is no tax money for that. We came in several million cheaper than a recently built similar regular public school.
As far as no men's rooms, I was talking about the adults ,not the kids. ;D ;D ;D ;D and the adult rest rooms do have doors! ;)
Our fire company doesn't do the fire inspections ,the city fire marshal does that.
Then we had the one firm that knew about what we could spend ,gave us a beautiful, lavish preliminary drawing that wasn't even remotely close to what we could afford...and another who bid and then pulled out because he decided his company was too small to do the job. Now we have a good match and things are really going well.
Oh, as an example of the things we do. We had specified wall mounted lavatory basins and toilets for cleaning ease, but that wasn't what would have been ordered if Al and I hadn't caught it. Al also came up with a $90,000.00 savings on an elevator by checking into the code requirement. It's that kind of thing that we do.
Newark Charter is a Blue Ribbon School so they must be doing something right. Yes, I am bragging.
It's the parents that begged for a Jr. Sr. high school and we are hopeful it will be as successful as the elementary and middle schools are now.
I the meantime, good luck with your project. I hope it eventually works out somehow.
Quote from: jprxmkt on December 15, 2012, 12:21:02 PM
I was on a committee of teachers, staff, adminstration, school board, and community members when the consolidation to one campus happened a few years. We had the complete blueprint of the entire facility and we did just as you are talking about. We visually moved rooms around, combined offices that could be and looked at every room and closet (I am not kidding about the closets). With everyone working together we came up with roughly what is being used now. One of the larger closets was, at that time, being used by a tutor and student. Is this good enough for our children? Is this fair to them? To expect them to learn to be productive members of society when we are putting them in a closet to learn (metaphor only and exaggeration). The current high school rooms are absolutely not big enough to put a wall down to "create" 2 classrooms. They are a comfortable size for the high school class sizes now and the building was never built to hold 600 kids. (Maybe if you have the gymnasium full for a sporting event but not actively learning students areas) Yes, you could build a covered, closed in walkway between the modulars and the main building but that still doesnt fix the overcrowding inside. The junior high kids who are not in sports have to have PE in the cafeteria or the weight room because the gym for sports practice last hour of the day.
Ross, read this, the school was never designed for 600 students. You just embellish and makeup whatever you want to try to cause problems.
Quote from: Oldtimer on December 20, 2012, 11:44:17 AM
Ross, read this, the school was never designed for 600 students. You just embellish and makeup whatever you want to try to cause problems.
Oldtimer - Haven't you figured out that in Ross' world second or third hand hearsay trumps first hand factual knowledge! Like I've said many times before - when factual information is presented that does not fit Ross' preconceived notion of things, he just pretends it wasn't presented, or twists it into something that fits his closed-minded viewpoint.
Amazing,
Just because "your source" says it's so , that means "Ross's source" is wrong. I have no idea one way or the other but to think Ross is always 100% wrong but you are always 100% right just don't sound right. Hell, I was born and raised in Elk county and still live here and am a taxpayer---and not delinquent I might add (so far), and I say the school was designed to hold 6,000 kids. Just because I said so does that mean I'm right ?
Jar - he does it all the time. He has done it to me, he has done it to various people intimately involved with ECCFED, ECCEF, Extension, QUAD, RC&D, SCKEDD, EK, USD 282, etc. and he has done it to all sorts of people whose only crime in his mind is to have been born with, or acquired by marriage, the name Perkins.
He, and others on here, would rather believe "the word on the street" than to give any credence to information presented by people who have first hand knowledge of events.
Why?
Quote from: flintauqua on December 20, 2012, 02:21:49 PM
...people whose only crime in his mind is to have been born with, or acquired by marriage, the name Perkins.
Darned glad you cleared that up without making any unjustifiable, unverifiable, imaginary or simpleminded ASSumptions. There for a few months, I was concerned he was unfairly targeting folks with the name Durbin, or Whetstone, or Smith or Jones. Glad to know it's only one family name and not matters of policy that are a problem for Ross
Gee, who's reading things into posts now?
There were three non-exclusive categories of citizens in my statement:
Quote from: flintauqua on December 20, 2012, 02:21:49 PM
Jar - he does it all the time. He has done it to me, he has done it to various people intimately involved with ECCFED, ECCEF, Extension, QUAD, RC&D, SCKEDD, EK, USD 282, etc. and he has done it to all sorts of people whose only crime in his mind is to have been born with, or acquired by marriage, the name Perkins.
He, and others on here, would rather believe "the word on the street" than to give any credence to information presented by people who have first hand knowledge of events.
Why?
1. Me
2. People intimately involved with ECCFED, ECCEF, Extension, QUAD, RC&D, SCKEDD, EK, USD 282, etc
3. People whose only crime in his mind is to have been born with, or acquired by marriage, the name Perkins
But yet for some reason, you decide to focus on only one part of my post, instead of the point of it.
Why?
I can't speak for Ross, however all three (3) categories appear to lean strongly towards socialism.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on December 19, 2012, 11:19:57 AM
Cat, that is exactly why we were hired. That was Al's professional history after all. The artificial stucco (Drive it) on the outside is holding up very well and we don't miss the block hallways. Standard construction has worked out fine. We have hurricane and 24 inch roof snow standards, but don't have to worry much about tornadoes, thank goodness. We get them, but they aren't those huge things you get.
Right now Al is signing off on the latest round of invoices so the guys can get paid. The board is very happy with the arrangement. Fortunately, they know that they don't know. ;)
Hey Bull ,nothing wrong with the way you do things. We are just able to do it cheaper and that is important because we have to raise our own building funds. Being a charter school there is no tax money for that. We came in several million cheaper than a recently built similar regular public school.
As far as no men's rooms, I was talking about the adults ,not the kids. ;D ;D ;D ;D and the adult rest rooms do have doors! ;)
Our fire company doesn't do the fire inspections ,the city fire marshal does that.
Then we had the one firm that knew about what we could spend ,gave us a beautiful, lavish preliminary drawing that wasn't even remotely close to what we could afford...and another who bid and then pulled out because he decided his company was too small to do the job. Now we have a good match and things are really going well.
Oh, as an example of the things we do. We had specified wall mounted lavatory basins and toilets for cleaning ease, but that wasn't what would have been ordered if Al and I hadn't caught it. Al also came up with a $90,000.00 savings on an elevator by checking into the code requirement. It's that kind of thing that we do.
Newark Charter is a Blue Ribbon School so they must be doing something right. Yes, I am bragging.
It's the parents that begged for a Jr. Sr. high school and we are hopeful it will be as successful as the elementary and middle schools are now.
I the meantime, good luck with your project. I hope it eventually works out somehow.
Drivet is a brand name for an EIFS, exterior insulating and finishing system, and it doesn't hold up well. It soaks up water like a sponge and when you have freeze/thaw, it cracks. It also discolors in the sun and patching shows up like a stain. It was popular for as long as it took to find out it isn't durable. ::)
Wall mounted fixtures in bathrooms are the result of the ADA, American disabilities act.
Bull, I had a brain fart and couldn't think of EIFS until Al reminded me too, thanks. We have had no problems with it. (6+ years) No stains or cracks or leaks and a couple of dimples caused by a golf ball driven from off the property, of all things, were repaired by the company who installed it. They do just that system not regular stucco and guarantee their work. Not just any stucco person should install it. Maybe it's just too cold where you are to make it work, but we are very satisfied.