Below is a good website to get the real truth about Windpower and how fortunate Elk County is to have the Wind Farm. Windpower is the cleanest, cheapest and fastest growing power source in the World.
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9024940&contentId=7046497
Sure it is if:
If you do not consider that BP as well as others are subsidized heavily by taxpayers dollars.
If you do not consider this is advertisement for a major foreign company.
If you do not consider that B.P. stands for British Petroleum.
If you don't consider the economice of the major profit (not the lollipops) going to Britian.
Sure it's a good thing, if you view it with a closed mind.
Millions and millions, possibly billions or trillions of dollars in profit being exported to foreign country's do what to the economic balance of trade? AKA the foreign trade deficit.
Quote from: Ross on February 28, 2012, 11:30:52 AM
Sure it is if:
If you consider that BP as well as others are subsuidized heavily by taxpayers dollars.
If you do not consider this is advertisement for a major foreign company.
If you do not consider that B.P. stands for British Petroleum.
If you don't consider the economice of the major profit (not the lollipops) going to Britian.
Sure it's a good thing, if you view it with a closed mind.
Millions and millions, possibly billions or trillions of dollars in profit being exported to foreign country's do what to the economic balance of trade? AKA the foreign trade deficit.
Are you saying it is better to continue to pay over 300 Billion dollars a year for Oil/Products, etc imported from several countries, some of who are our enemies. Are you saying is better to pollute the atmosphere using Hydrocarbons. Time is running out on our polutting the world and it is imperative that we do everything to reduce the Hydrocarbon discharge into the atmosphere, a good start is Windpower.
BP is a very large Oil and Gas Producer in America, they Acquired Amoco and they employ Thousands of Americans Worldwide. They pay Billions of Tax dollars to the united States. The Windfarm is good thing for Elk County, the United States and the World.
Quote from: Ross on February 28, 2012, 11:30:52 AM
Sure it is if:
If you consider that BP as well as others are subsuidized heavily by taxpayers dollars.
If you do not consider this is advertisement for a major foreign company.
If you do not consider that B.P. stands for British Petroleum.
If you don't consider the economice of the major profit (not the lollipops) going to Britian.
Sure it's a good thing, if you view it with a closed mind.
Millions and millions, possibly billions or trillions of dollars in profit being exported to foreign country's do what to the economic balance of trade? AKA the foreign trade deficit.
Using windpower will not increase the trade imbalance, if anything it will reduce it considering it reduces the amount of foreign oil imported. The profits that are retained by the corporation are not "trade" and thus do not contribute to the trade imbalance. Further, if many of the parts of made in the USA, then the trade imbalance would not increase.
Gentlemen BP is a British Petroleum owned by Britians. I use to work for ARCO for a number of years and BP bought them out. Do you think it is better for all the profits to go to Britian?
AMOCO is now owned by Britian is what you are saying, can you hear your self. Where do the profits go.
Even Japan has talked about coming here to build their stuff and sell it to us.
For what purpose?
To make a profit to take home.
We would get the lollipop and they would take the big bucks home to Japan.
It would not make them an American Company.
Why do we give other countries companies in the US tax breaks and subsidies and then let them take it all home.
Using wind power owned and operated by foreign companies sure as heck does add to the trade imbalance because they take the profits home to their own countries. Why else would they be here being subsidised by taxpayers dollars? For PROFIT to take home.
Just like you do. You work to make money, to make a profit and you take it home. You don't let your next door neighbor take it home, you take it home.
If the parts are made in the US by a foreign company, it is still the same thing> The company that made the turbins for the windfarm is from Sweden building here in the US.
I suppose you guys still believe Elk County will still be getting nearly a million a year too!
Quote from: jerry wagner on February 28, 2012, 02:48:39 PM
The profits that are retained by the corporation are not "trade" and thus do not contribute to the trade imbalance.
You are absolutely right, it is not trade. It is simply exporting millions, billions or possibly trillions of dollars as profit to their country.
It is simply a matter of wording. Our country is the loser financially.
BP is 38% owned by Americans, 44% oowned by British, and 18% owned by others, BP spends Billions of Dollars in the US. If it is so bad that BP spends money here, consider that the US oil companies spend far more Billions in Britian and in almost every oil producing country in the world. The British sector of the North Sea was developed by American Oil Companies.
Denmark 10% of their electicity needs are wind, and they are discontinuing usage of farms. Not efficient nor is it profitable. Germany 1%. US not sure. Efficiency of them in the US quite a bit lower than the 30% they are touting. yeah the output that much, but by the time its delivered its not that much. IF TVA is buying it, then theres around 1000 miles transferlines that you lose electricity all along the way in the form of magetic flux. ENOUGH loss that you can power many households with a inductive reactance device to collect it. BUt don't get caught, thats illegal.
So call it negligible i suppose, cost of transmission. but you won't get 30% and i doubt it would be 25% by the time its delivered to the door.
No pollution?? Get real! BS on that one. You got petroleum products used to make the things, maintain the things. Sure it doesn't pump out smoke but neither do the refineries either. THey filter all that stuff. Been that way since the 70's/80s. Even coal has cleaned up and become more efficient. I've looked at those stacks and they are using updraft stacks now that burn everything up, turning it into water and co2. No its not 100% i realzie that but its not like it was in 1972. I've heard folks talk about pollution over the city of atlanta Ga. I laugh about it cause they don't now what pollution is. Sure theres a light haze over the city, but in the 70's you couldn't even see the skyscrapers for the cloud of pollution that hung over it on a sunny day.
Simple fact is your never going to get 0% emission on anything not even wind or solar. YOu have to count everything used to make the product.
The other thing is who wants to litter up the landscape all over the country with those things. Sure don't want to go see places like yellowstone with windtowers sitting on top of the hills. Ruins the whole thing. I think mr. ward checked cause his beloved hills were destroyed by those things going up. He loved siting and watching the sun set over those hills. for 50 years he saw those hills every morning and night, and all the towers hovering over them just destroyed the view he had.
Good for the county? LOL ok if you say so. You haven't tallied up the final cost of it all when the contract is up.
Hey Srkruzich,
Don't it feel like they are trying to blow all that smoke up our backside? LOL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark
Go to the above website and then you can see who the smoke blowers are on here.
I call your wiki and raise you a actual report.
http://www.aweo.org/problemwithwind.html
Like they said, "Too Good To Be True?"
And I learned some more info by clicking on their links.
I never thought about them using their own generated power to turn the turbins when there is no wind.
Or to use their own power to heat the oil inside the turbin in cold weather and a few other things.
Good post.
I'll be surprised if the County even see's 1/4 of what they were told in the PILOT.
I think it would be beneficial for some to read your link, srkruzich.
It is far more informative then wikipedia where just anyone can say what ever they want.
For instance:
A few people get more money from leasing their land for the towers (until the developer starts withholding it for some small-print reason, or even disappears after the tax advantages slow down -- Altamont Pass in California is littered with broken-down wind towers owned by companies long gone), but that's the opposite of an argument for the general good.
I have read this before on other web sites. I have even seen the pile of old turbins, rather ugly.
Quote from: frawin on February 28, 2012, 01:17:16 PM
Are you saying it is better to continue to pay over 300 Billion dollars a year for Oil/Products, etc imported from several countries, some of who are our enemies. Are you saying is better to pollute the atmosphere using Hydrocarbons. Time is running out on our polutting the world and it is imperative that we do everything to reduce the Hydrocarbon discharge into the atmosphere, a good start is Windpower.
BP is a very large Oil and Gas Producer in America, they Acquired Amoco and they employ Thousands of Americans Worldwide. They pay Billions of Tax dollars to the united States. The Windfarm is good thing for Elk County, the United States and the World.
I can't see a "good start" being Windpower. Nonsense. Our country was off to a good start with the Declaration of Independence and the Consititution. This Federal government corporate welfare for WindPower will not save the environment or the economy. That's tyranny. How will tyranny save the environment or the economy - better yet, how will tyranny save our couintry?
The belief that government provides for us is nonsense. I'm not buying into the Obama and Republican party doctrine for us and for the world community.
This country at the time of the writing of those documents didn't have electricity at all, but did use wind and water, animal, solar. wood, fire and people power to help with their daily lives.How is what is being done now not a logical extension from what they did. Have you ever been to Williamsburg or any other place that shows the cleverness of the day and how they got things done? Yes they did pay taxes...that's what started the war!You certainly do use "tyranny" broadly and loosely.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 29, 2012, 09:33:01 AM
This country at the time of the writing of those documents didn't have electricity at all, but did use wind and water, animal, solar. wood, fire and people power to help with their daily lives.How is what is being done now not a logical extension from what they did. Have you ever been to Williamsburg or any other place that shows the cleverness of the day and how they got things done? Yes they did pay taxes...that's what started the war!You certainly do use "tyranny" broadly and loosely.
IF you read the ariticle it pointed that out. that smaller windtowers ones like you still see dotted around the country that was used for water ect work. It supplys one two places. But then again you do not have the loss associated with electrical generation in water or whatever. You see there is a reason there is a min 9mph wind. It takes that just to turn the commentator. Once you turn on the juice coming out of it it generates a resistance to turning. The old time mills didn't have that kind of resistance. Secondly yes folks have used small commentators to produce electricity in their homes. Smaller they are the much easier they are to turn. In a car, you lose about 2 hp to turning the alternator. That is why you can't have peretual motion. There is always a cost for every action.
The next thing that happens with that cost is friction. That friction from day one starts the clock on its demise. By the time you get the cost out of the towers, they will need replacing.not because they are worn out but because they are obsolete.
Last of all is that wind cannot be used in all areas of the country and the only way is to ship the power over lines to another location. You have all kinds of cost, loss, and it promotes a total negative effect on your so called green power.
As in solar what do you do with the skeletons once they are dead? Thats another big time cost. i'll bet you that to dismantle those things will cost 5 times what it cost to put up because by that time there will be more regulation on how to dispose of it. And you know who will foot the bil? Not the companies, but the taxpayors.
Sell' em to China and include the cost of dismantling and shipping.
I worked for a Large Rancher-Oil Operator for 20 years in West Texas, Florida Power and Light installed a big windfarm on his ranch 11 years ago, it is still operating fine. The Rancher and the County are very pleased with the Money. They do not ship the electricity generated over power lines for a long distance, the trade it with other companies that have excess power in other Grids.
Wind Power is being installed all over the world, it is clean, cost effective, non polluting. I think Elk County will be very pleased with the Enel project.
Quote from: frawin on February 29, 2012, 04:36:32 PM
Wind Power is being installed all over the world, it is clean, cost effective, non polluting.
Who cares what the rest of the world is doing, this is where I live.
Cost effective if subsidized with taxpayer dollars.
Non polluting if you ignore all the polution developed in the production fo the units.
Non polluting as long as they don't break down and leak all the oil inside of them.
Non poluting as long as the don't get hit by lightning and the oil inside them doesn't burst into flames.
Quote from: frawin on February 29, 2012, 04:36:32 PM
I think Elk County will be very pleased with the Enel project.
That remains to be seen?
Are you talking about the nearly Million a year that Elk County is suppose to get?
We will have to wait and see if they pay that on the initial start up payment, won't we?
They did start up art full capacity, didn't they say that?
What happens in ten or twenty years will remain to be seen.
Ross, speaking of electricity.... what you and Steve need is one of those Chevrolet Volts. It is more than a car, it's a community (so they say). I think It's the impossible dream and really in my view, Volt is achieving it.
Just think, only a few years ago the notion of a production electric vehicle made the lips of skeptics curl up at the corners. Words like "never," "won't" and "can't be done" were tossed around. Volt did it anyway. Since 2010 disbelievers and optimism alike have had the chance to experience just how possible this dream has become. Imagine owning a car that gives you complete piece of mind. Volt is unique among electric vehicles because you have two sources of energy. You have an electric source...a battery....that allows you to drive gas... free for an EPA estimated 35 miles. And there's also an onboard gas generator that produces electricity so you can go up to a total of 375 additional miles on a full tank of gas. Can't beat that, huh... It's a little pricy but what isn't nowdays?
I'm sold on them and so is this Volt owner:Also checkout: http://www.obamavolt2012.com/Site/Obama_Volt_2012.html and http://www.bailoutcost.com/
Obama told the workers at the plant in 5 years when he is no longer President of the US he will buy one and drive it himself.
This poor old retired redneck kant afford one?
Perhaps if I were to ask the County Commissioners and the School Board and everyone else to give me money I could buy one, too!
Naw, I'm to proud to beg, I'd raather do with out.
I don't like it any way. LOL
sorry warph, that thing wouldn't last a year on elk county roads.
Also checkout: http://www.obamavolt2012.com/Site/Obama_Volt_2012.html and http://www.bailoutcost.com/
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