Kathrine Sebelius (KS biggest baby killer) head of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services enacted a rule in January 2012 under the "Affordable Care Act" requiring employers to provide access to health insurance that covers most forms of birth control, even those that can cause the death of an unborn child. The rule, or mandate, exempts churches but applies to other religious employers. On Feb. 10, President Obama announced an "accommodation" for religious employers, saying they would not have to cover birth control, but that insurance companies would provide free birth control, including "morning after" pills.
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) objects to the use of drugs and procedures that are used to take the lives of unborn children, who are persons in the sight of God from the time of conception.
I don't know how many LCMS members we have on this forum (as I am one of them). All faiths should be aware of the following from LCMS President Rev. Dr. Matthew C. Harrison:
LCMS President comments on birth control mandate
Rev. Dr. Harrison Speaks Before U.S. House Committee
Rev. Dr.Harrison answers U.S. House Committee questions
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"We fought for a free conscience in this country, and we won't give it up without a fight. To paraphrase Martin Luther, the heart and conscience has room only for God, not for God and the federal government. The bed is too narrow, the blanket is too short. We must obey God rather than men, and we will. Please get the federal government, Mr. Chairman, out of our consciences. Thank you."
Very powerful words. Too bad this will probably not stir the conscience of those who want to do this. The real problem here is that the federal government has overstepped it bounds with the imposition of national healthcare. Nowhere in the constitution can you find a right to health care. This healthcare law is the springboard to more and more control and implementation of things those in control want.
But...The cry has gone out. Churches that don't normally work together in supporting their religious libery rights now have a kernel of leaders to rally 'round. This is the value: the Gospel was proclaimed therefore letting loose the power of the Holy Spirit on all who heard it. The Word of God and the Holy Spirit have the power to change the hearts of men. The apparently crusty, unchangeable congresspersons all spent their youths in church and Sunday school. You cannot see the anima, it blows where it will. You cannot see it coming nor going, but it gives life to all living things.
This is a battle for hearts, not minds. If Rev. Harrison had based his message on natural law and logic, where would the power of the Gospel be in that?
The Gospel of Jesus Christ has defeated many empires... hopefully, this will be a piece of cake.
...Warph
Just because women have something available doesn't mean they have to use it, regardless of who pays.
This should ,IMHO, be between a female and her doctor, and with married couples, each other. period! All others should butt out. The Gov't. and the church, in this modern age, should have nothing to do with this. Personal female freedom and liberty, not mandates please,.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 20, 2012, 12:20:49 PM
Just because women have something available doesn't mean they have to use it, regardless of who pays.
This should ,IMHO, be between a female and her doctor, and with married couples, each other. period! All others should butt out. The Gov't. and the church, in this modern age, should have nothing to do with this. Personal female freedom and liberty, not mandates please,.
So... IYHO you are pro-chice? Do you know that as of today, more than twenty-seven years since the legalization of abortion, over 30 million legal abortions have taken place in the United States. To me, and millions like me, this is an issue which is more than a simple question of women controlling their own lives and bodies. It is a matter of life and death for an innocent human being!
I'm with Diane on this one..
The title of this thread is birth control, not abortion.
There are those now who would take away all forms of birth control. If that happens, I predict abortions, legal or otherwise will increase.
I am pro choice, but that means being able to say no, also. I don't remotely believe in willynilly abortion, but then it takes two to create a baby!
I'm against premarital sex too, and we all know how successful that is. If a young girl is too immature to say no, then the male must say no....oh sure, like that works!
As far as when is a baby "alive", for me that's when the baby can live outside the mother, on it's own. The moment of fertilization doesn't work for me. Babies aren't named or baptized at conception. I've had experience with pregnant women who have been crushed in car accidents, murdered. overdosed etc. and in some cases the baby will be taken from the mother and may survive if developed enough. In other cases, no.
It's personal ! We have so many people now demanding smaller Gov't and more personal freedom, less Gov't funding, yet we hear "they" need to do something." Those puzzle pieces will never match.
Well said! And you're right in the bullseye!!
I agree - I say and have always said, if men were to become pregnant, their attitude about that subject would
change drastically.
First and foremost they would learn that the zipper should stay up -- not always in the down mode.
Do I believe in abortion??? NO ! Do I believe in someone else making my decisions for me - according to their beliefs?
Absolutely NO!
I want to add my voice to Diane's, Teresa's and Jo's. I just don't have the words to express it the way they have.
As for my personal opinion on abortion. I am glad that it is available when it is needed. In my 80 some years, I have not known anyone that has had an abortion. I do know women that have had the baby outside of wedlock and it has worked out fine for them. Abortion was available for them, and they made their choice. That choice should be available for all women.
Birth control should be available to all women and insurance should pay for it as long as insurance is paying for Viagra and other problems that are strictly male.
I'm not with Diane on this one either.
Jeremiah 1: 4 & 5
Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
I wouldn't expect you to be. I'll take care of my family and you take care of yours.
Genesis 3: 4-5
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Seems Eve took care of her family, too. Notwithstanding Adam's folly, it seems Eve was first deceived.
As the old rehab saying goes: If nothing changes, nothing changes.
Thanks, red, for continuing to hold on to Truth. Too many (in these 'modern' times) claim to believe, but want their cake with ice cream AND a fork.
And thanks, Warph, for the reminder that there are a few mainstream churches remaining that aren't afraid to hold to and to profess the faith they claim to hold.
Diane and others what is the matter with you, you are supposed to think like Ross and Patriot or stay off of the Forum. That is why hardly anyone posts on the forum anymore, they got tired of being put down by Ross and patriot. Go back and look at the topics, the posts and the posters and you will see that there are no fun and interesting topics posted anymore.
ELK,
I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it looks to me like the forum is alive and well---and informative
Quote from: redcliffsw on February 23, 2012, 07:15:10 AM
I'm not with Diane on this one either.
Jeremiah 1: 4 & 5
Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
You beat me to it red
Quote from: ELK@KC on February 23, 2012, 06:46:29 PM
Diane and others what is the matter with you, you are supposed to think like Ross and Patriot or stay off of the Forum. That is why hardly anyone posts on the forum anymore, they got tired of being put down by Ross and patriot. Go back and look at the topics, the posts and the posters and you will see that there are no fun and interesting topics posted anymore.
Your logging in at the wrong time. From 7am - around 10am most of the posts are 20 different types of games being played. Theres your fun. Then from 9 -11 they play games again.
There is also religious postings in the mornings during game time. Then you have silence most of the day and in the evening time then everyone gets back on to post whatever.
My whole point on this is.... Government has no place in family matters.. Nor does the millions of different Man Made Churches that are scattered around the country like fleas on a dog. You make your own decisions about you..your religion and what concerns you and your family..believing and acting within your life the way you see fit.. I'm all for that and if it works for you.. good for you.
But I kindly ask you to stay the hell out of mine and allow me the same privilege..
What I do and the way I do it is between me and God.. Thats it!! ME AND GOD!!! NOT between me and you or anyone else who is adept at Bible quotations! And its damned sure not between me and some politician.
Now ..until I ask you to pay my bills or ask for your personal judgement on what I do with my life.. then I once again kindly ask you to not cram your beliefs down my throat..but allow me the freedom to do with MY body what I feel is best for me. :)
Pro Choice.. Pro Life.. I see no difference. Everyone chooses life if they can. We are human beings fighting everyday for our own and to say that because I am Pro Choice,.. then I'm labeled as being against the life of a child.. is BS!! I doubt that there is anyone out there who doesn't wish that when they get pregnant, their life consists of a white picket fence and Ozzie and Harriet living next door to them. Reality... it doesn't happen like that..
If a woman is raped ..or if a baby is not going to be loved and wanted.. or is being carried by a drug infested mother.. ( just to name 3 examples) who in their right mind would want it to be born in that environment? Who would wish that on anyone.. let alone an innocent baby??
And ...one more thing... To all of you out there who are standing on your almighty sanctimonious thrones pointing fingers, throwing stones and judging....and tossing out quotes from a book that was written by a huge amount of people with parts being changed and lost and destroyed... .. let me ask you one question.
Are YOU willing to put your name on a list to adopt one of these babies that are going to be born without the love that will be provided by their birth mother? Since you think it should be born no matter what.. Are you willing to take the child and raise it? Because if you aren't.. then I suggest you keep your nose out of other people personal business and concentrate on your own.
WOW!!!, Teresa and that is not an acronym.
Sen. Fred Thompson gave the best answer a politician ever gave on his stance of abortion. Fred said as long as Roe vs Wade was the law, what he thinks is irrelevant.
Fortunately there are people who do adopt but not nearly enough,especially for the drug and alcohol babies and for the extremely defective ones. There are also medically necessary abortions in which one child must be aborted or it's twin will die also, or extreme cases where there are essential organs missing with no way to transplant, There are kids with just a partial brain stem, no real brain.They can't live once the cord is cut. Some cases of conjoined twins cannot live out side the mother. Its a shame, but it happens. If one would talk to doctors who specialize in very high risk pregnancies, one would sit down and cry at what nature does sometimes. It's cruel but it's life.
Birth control pills also have uses beyond birth control. Women who have seriously erratic heavy flow periods often take them to help regulate their cycles and help them from having serious anemia causing blood loss, or worse.Some such women can't conceive because of it. So the pill can actually help some women have children! Such knowledge didn't exist in Biblical days.
I heard some interesting comments Wednesday night.The churches for whom it is important, are not at all successfully selling the idea of no birth control to their women.They had some studies on many faiths, especially Catholic women who do and will use birth control, often at the urging of their own Catholic partner or mate, if there is one. So now they have decided to pressure the Gov't to get involved and do for them what they couldn't accomplish themselves, and ban all forms of birth control for everyone, no matter what their culture or religion might be. So much for American freedom
Now is that communism, socialism, or which Gov't controlled "ism" is that? Decide for yourself what is right for you, but leave me and mine alone. There might be life issues that you don't know about and are none of your business.
Quote from: Teresa on February 23, 2012, 09:25:42 PM
And ...one more thing... To all of you out there who are standing on your almighty sanctimonious thrones pointing fingers, throwing stones and judging....and tossing out quotes from a book that was written by a huge amount of people with parts being changed and lost and destroyed... .. let me ask you one question.
Are YOU willing to put your name on a list to adopt one of these babies that are going to be born without the love that will be provided by their birth mother? Since you think it should be born no matter what.. Are you willing to take the child and raise it? Because if you aren't.. then I suggest you keep your nose out of other people personal business and concentrate on your own.
I've already took on two unwanted children and raised them both. One is gone now and i miss him dearly. the other is in denver raising her own children. :) Am i on a sanctimonious throne or am i a hypocrite judging someone? Nope i don't think i am. IF i were, i would have more of a right to be judging since i have walked the walk. But my simple opinion is this. 1.They are alive. 2. they are humans 3.They are dependent upon someone to protect them from all harm. 4. Even when they make a physical appearance in this world they are dependent upon someone to take care of them to keep them alive.
BUT the question i ask folks is not how could they but WHAT IF science is wrong (Which it is quite a bit of the time) and these babies are alive and fully human at conception. Why aren't they afforded the same rights as you or i?
Even the worst of society the rapist, the murderers, the vermin in this world are innocent until proven guiltty by a jury of their peers before a death sentence can be bestowed upon them. Aren't these little ones worth more than these vermin?
What i wonder is this, how many of the 35 million babies that have been aborted over the years, was the one who might have found the cure for my heart disease or diabetes? Or cancer or any number of diseases that plague us.
We'll never know. :(
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 24, 2012, 09:40:35 AM
Fortunately there are people who do adopt but not nearly enough,especially for the drug and alcohol babies and for the extremely defective ones. There are also medically necessary abortions in which one child must be aborted or it's twin will die also, or extreme cases where there are essential organs missing with no way to transplant, There are kids with just a partial brain stem, no real brain.They can't live once the cord is cut. Some cases of conjoined twins cannot live out side the mother. Its a shame, but it happens. If one would talk to doctors who specialize in very high risk pregnancies, one would sit down and cry at what nature does sometimes. It's cruel but it's life.
There will always be instances where it is necessary to do this. I am not against it if the life of the mother is in jeapoardy either. It would be considered self defence in that case. BUT i wouldn't know too many women that would do that if the baby had a chance at a good life. My grandmother was told in the 1950's to abort my uncle. That she was going to die if she didn't. she said no way. She lived he lived. :)
BTW i do think it is foolish and idiotic to not use condoms or birth control pills as they don't involve killing a baby, just stopping the cycle and stopping the semen from getting to the egg. thats not the same thing.
Also its foolish to not get tubes tied or vas based on some catholic doctrine based on one obscure verse that never ment you cannot use birth control. The verse they use is being used entirely out of context. I think it was onan spilled his seed on the ground after being told to impregnate his brothers wife. The sin was not the spilling of the seed on the ground but he disobeyed God.
Okay, Ladies. Lets talk about Abortion. Now I know that I'm about to stir up one very large hornets nest. I understand what you are trying to say but, answer this: Do you really believe that a God who took such care in creating a Life... (lets take each of you as an example of that Life).... would you condon mans law, our governments law... murdering that Life? Either we as a religious nation believe what the Bible says about the value of a Life... regardless of any situation... OR you determine your own code of ethics regarding the matter, which some of you have done.
As Individuals, and as a nation, believe me when I say we stand on dangerous ground if we choose the latter. And if the latter is chosen and the Bible is thrown aside, then one would have a wharped sense of thought pertaining to the world or things not spiritual or sacred, a system of thought or action concerned with the interests or ideals of people... the intellectual and cultural movement... characterized by an emphasis on human interests rather than ... religion. This, my friends is called secular humanism... which is on the rise as we speak and people don't realize or have a clue in understanding it or give a hoot on what is happening to our nation... they just sort of go with the flow without realizing what it means... a nation of sheep you might say. I could pontificate a lot more on SH, and probably will in the future.
Go back to Red's thread and re-read the Bible verse and really think on what it means... take a minute and look it up in the Bible... and while you are at it, read Psalms 139, God's Perfect Knowledge of Man... one of my favorite Psalms. 139:13-16
I guess I have opened pandora's box to some of you. To quote a forum soothsayer and her peremptory challenge of, "To all of you out there who are standing on your almighty sanctimonious thrones pointing fingers, throwing stones and judging....and tossing out quotes from a book that was written by a huge amount of people with parts being changed and lost and destroyed..." let me say this... "Sorry about the Biblical quotes!" (gulp..don't shoot me(http://mail.yimg.com/nq/mc/1_0_0/mesg/tsmileys2/26.gif)) ...but I believe in them. And hold this thought, Ladies:
"Human beings are human beings. They say what they want, don't they? They used to say it across the fence while they were hanging wash. Now they just say it on the Internet....Warph"
Also.... let me state that there are thousand's of people who want to adopt children.. children but the biggest holdup on this is the U.S.Government! Just ask my daughter. She can tell you all about it.
And... Steve made a great point, "What i wonder is this, how many of the 35 million babies that have been aborted over the years, was the one who might have found the cure for my heart disease or diabetes? Or cancer or any number of diseases that plague us." Amen to that, Steve
Believe me, I am NOT trying to cram my beliefs down anyones throats. This is my opinion and whether you think it right or wrong, opinions are important... that is what this forum is supposabley about... 1st. amendment rights... freedom of speech... personal expression.
Also would love to have a little girl. I raised 6 kids, 1 was my ex'wifes daughter cause she wasn't fit but No little gal to call my own so to speak. I never was allowed to adopt her. oh well didn't matter to me :) BUT NOW i am older much wiser probably more patient than i was and certainly have more time to raise a little girl, i have no chance on Gods green earth to adopt one. There is no judge in their right mind going to let me take on a new one with my heart issues unfortunately and i can agree somewhat with them in the sense what if i die. Wouldn't be too fair for the little one.
You can bet if i got the option and privileged to take care of another baby, that child would be raised with tons of love and commitment. Raised up to be a productive citizen and a wonderful person.
It is sad that folks do choose not to carry them and just let old farts like me love them and raise them. We have so much to offer.
All the more reason not to become engaged in heated arguments about birth control and abortions. Everybody has at least one story to tell to back up their feelings.That's just the way it is. Please don't generalize.
There are many thousands of Americans in this country who are not Christians. What about them?
Is it God's fault that some women just can't carry to term or had to have early surgeries or diseasese that left them sterile or they are missing some necessary parts? It just happens.
As far as Christianity is concerned,take care. History has shown that no other group has taken more lives under the guise of religion than Christianity. Unfortunately, much of it having to do with the accumulation of wealth. Was it right? Was it wrong? It wavered back and forth so much over hundreds of years who knows?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 24, 2012, 03:01:56 PM
All the more reason not to become engaged in heated arguments about birth control and abortions. Everybody has at least one story to tell to back up their feelings.That's just the way it is. Please don't generalize.
There are many thousands of Americans in this country who are not Christians. What about them?
Is it God's fault that some women just can't carry to term or had to have early surgeries or diseasese that left them sterile or they are missing some necessary parts? It just happens.
As far as Christianity is concerned,take care. History has shown that no other group has taken more lives under the guise of religion than Christianity. Unfortunately, much of it having to do with the accumulation of wealth. Was it right? Was it wrong? It wavered back and forth so much over hundreds of years who knows?
Actually sorry diane, your wrong on that. Catholicism took more lives and its running neck and neck with islam.
catholicism is not christianity. The two are not the same. As for those who are not christian, it still doesn't matter. MY STATEMENT is still valid. How many of the 35 million might have found the cure for heart disease, MS, cancer, Diabetes, how many might have been the next Pavroti, or Michaelangelo or even Bach.
So what if they are born to a addicted mother? A childs future is not set in stone. Shrug.
Like warph said secular humanism has taken human out of the equation.
Just because someone doesn't want to take responsibility for their actions, and children doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the wash, or in secular Humanistic terms abort the problem.
Its amazing to me theres more compassion for animals these days than there are for babies. Guess i've lived far too long i've actually seen what we thought was unconscionable when i was younger.
Yep... Christians have often criticized the courts. But as anti-religion laws proliferate, the courts may be a wall of defense. The same judge that struck down the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy about gays has made a ruling that protects religious conscience:
http://www.becketfund.org/court-strikes-down-law-requiring-pharmacies-to-dispense-the-morning-after-pill/
Federal Court Strikes Down Law Requiring Pharmacies to Dispense the Morning-After Pill
Major Victory for Conscience Rights in Health Care
A federal court in Tacoma, Washington, struck down a Washington law that requires pharmacists to dispense the morning-after pill even when doing so would violate their religious beliefs. The court held that the law violates the First Amendment right to free exercise of religion.
"Today's decision sends a very clear message: No individual can be forced out of her profession solely because of her religious beliefs," said Luke Goodrich, Deputy National Litigation Director at the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. The Becket Fund, together with the Seattle-based law firm of Ellis, Li & McKinstry, represents the plaintiffs in the case. "If the state allows pharmacies to refer patients elsewhere for economic, business, and convenience reasons, it has to allow them to refer for reasons of conscience," added Mr. Goodrich.
The plaintiffs in the case are a family-owned pharmacy at Ralph's Thriftway (shopped many times at Ralph's when I was stationed at McCord AFB) and two individual pharmacists (Margo Thelen and Rhonda Mesler) who cannot in good conscience dispense Plan B ("the morning-after pill") or ella ("the week-after pill"). These individuals believe that human life begins at the moment of fertilization, and that these drugs destroy human life because they can operate by destroying a fertilized egg, or embryo. Rather than dispensing those drugs, they refer patients to one of dozens of nearby pharmacies that stock and dispense them.
In 2007, the Washington State Board of Pharmacy passed new regulations making it illegal to refer patients to neighboring pharmacies for reasons of conscience, despite allowing them to refer patients elsewhere for a wide variety of business, economic, or convenience reasons. Because of the regulations, Margo Thelen lost her job; Rhonda Mesler was told she would have to transfer to another state; and Kevin Stormans, the owner of Ralph's Thriftway, faced repeated investigations and threats of punishment from the State Board of Pharmacy.
"The Board of Pharmacy's 2007 rules are not neutral, and they are not generally applicable," the Court explained. "They were designed instead to force religious objectors to dispense Plan B, and they sought to do so despite the fact that refusals to deliver for all sorts of secular reasons were permitted."
I can see the 9th Circuit overturning this, but with Hosana-Tabor's 9-0 decision there's hope that they will let the ruling stand. The Bill of Rights might actually still mean something? This past decade we've had all sorts of good rulings on freedom of speech (even the Westboro hate speech), freedom to exercise religion, an acknowledgement that the second amendment applies to individuals, etc. Now if the SCOTUS Justices would just read the tenth amendment we just might make some real progress toward returning to limited government.
Wow, I wonder how many Catholics know they aren't Christians!?
Considering how many there are in this country, no wonder President Obama said we aren't a Christian country! ;D Where did your idea about that come from? To some those would be fight'n words!
As far as the "what if's" about the abilities of children.That can be said about any child who is brain damaged before birth by drugs and/or alcohol, or any trauma to the mother or her placenta that limited oxygen to the baby, etc. Yes, it really is sad and fortunately some situations are much improved from years ago.
Most of those tiny preemies make it now and do very well. Sadly, not so when I was young. Most times when severe, limiting mental retardation happens, it's isn't anybody's fault, it just happens.If they are high functioning enough, they may find their place in sheltered workshops, but sadly they won't be the next health care pioneer or invent anything new. Have you ever seen drug and alcohol babies of the lowest kind, with their insignificant brain development and seriously damaged nervous systems? It'll make you cry and want to go slap the mother. Your and my tax dollars will support those poor kids for their whole lives ,if they live at all.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 25, 2012, 08:46:36 AM
Have you ever seen drug and alcohol babies of the lowest kind, with their insignificant brain development and seriously damaged nervous systems? It'll make you cry and want to go slap the mother. Your and my tax dollars will support those poor kids for their whole lives ,if they live at all.
SO what are you saying that we should kill all of them to make sure we don't get the ones that will cost us? That the one gem in a thousand isn't worth the cost to preserve life?
Sorry to disabuse you of your hardwon wisdom, Steve, but all Catholics and Protestants are Judeo-Christian. As far as Catholics running neck and neck with Islam...That moniker goes to the fanatical, Bible-thumping "Christians", not the Catholics. I've never seen the Catholics ever dictate what their members will wear, like the Islamics do...But, I have indeed seen the extreme fanatical Christians telling their women they can't wear pants, can't cut their hair, can't wear make-up....Hell...They might as well put a burka on them. I don't put them down for their pigheaded, backwards ways...But they sure as shooting can tell me that I'm going to Hell for being a Catholic. Now...You want to be verbally abusive...Let's get down to brass tacks and be abusive...But first, get your facts straight. All of us that kneel, stand, lay, talk in tongues, or dance before that Cross are ALL Christians, whether you in your backwards, pigheaded manner believe it or not.
Quote from: Catwoman on February 25, 2012, 01:13:04 PM
Sorry to disabuse you of your hardwon wisdom, Steve, but all Catholics and Protestants are Judeo-Christian. As far as Catholics running neck and neck with Islam...That moniker goes to the fanatical, Bible-thumping "Christians", not the Catholics. I've never seen the Catholics ever dictate what their members will wear, like the Islamics do...But, I have indeed seen the extreme fanatical Christians telling their women they can't wear pants, can't cut their hair, can't wear make-up....Hell...They might as well put a burka on them. I don't put them down for their pigheaded, backwards ways...But they sure as shooting can tell me that I'm going to Hell for being a Catholic. Now...You want to be verbally abusive...Let's get down to brass tacks and be abusive...But first, get your facts straight. All of us that kneel, stand, lay, talk in tongues, or dance before that Cross are ALL Christians, whether you in your backwards, pigheaded manner believe it or not.
Actually no they are not catwoman. Before 1500's there was catholic and heretic. Those that weren't catholic were butchered by the catholics. Sorry but its a fact. There was a dual line running from the time of christ that was catholics after around 200 ad and the line of New testament church aka christian faith. True both started out as christian but the catholic church went into apostasy in around 300-400 ad. Then you have the crusades, of which the CATHOLICS not the christians took up a campaign to rid the world of heretics and muslims. Thats a fact. It was not christians that took up this cambaign at all. They were being slaughtered by the catholics. And another fact the catholics do not call themselves christians or the ones i know don't they call themselves catholics. AND last of all, being one that came from the Catholic cult, I do that its called Catholic or the church. Not christian church. There are those today that try to incorporate christian with catholic but as any religious person knows calling ones self a sheep of christs does not make one a sheep of christ.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian (aka Catholic) theology since the early church fathers, referes to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation"(CCC 774-776), and states:
The Church (aka The Catholic Church) in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and instrument of the communion of God and men"(CCC 780)
Lets go over this real quick. The Catechism is the Catholic indoctrination of its members. This is as i have been told equal to scripture according to Catholic traditions. That i know is a fact.
Secondly this doctrine, teaches that the Church (AKA Catholic Church) is the only institution that can give salvation. Thats verbatim of the catachism. It also says that THE CHURCH (aka Catholic church) IS salvation as it calls it the universal sacrament of salvation. IT furthermore states that it is the sign and instrument of communion of God and men. Instrument means the vehicle the tool that gives communion.
Now we know that THE CHURCH did not exist prior to 300 ad. Up until then it was 7 churchs in the beginning that spread out as apostolic missionary churches across the lands. Each church was independent and had its own elders and pastor that ministered and ran things in the area. They did not rely on a central authority to dictate doctrines and policies. They would however work together with other churchs in distribution of money food supplies and help for other churches when they were in need.
The CHURCH (AKA Catholic Church ) was created in 380ad by theodosius 1 and at the time was very powerful in rome. It eventually grew larger and stronger in power from then on. With the government of Rome officially recognizing it as the established religion of Rome, the Church (AKA Catholic church) got teeth to push its agenda.
MEANWHILE there was also the Missionary churchs still spreading still growing around the lands and these church's the NT church the one Christ started became targets of the Catholic church. Its a age old story of Government oppression only this time in the name of God.
Now the point of all this is this. BY the Catholic church's OWN doctrines written down in 780 and still to this day held as the word of God, the catholics do not even believe that anyone outside of the catholic church is a christian.
So who's christian? Christ said follow me and i'll make you fishers of men. Rom 10:9 KJV - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 KJV - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Eph 2:8 KJV - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 KJV - Not of works, lest any man should boast.
NOWHERE does it say By the church or through the church or cause of the church. You can't find any scripture that states that in the bible. So unless its written in there, it ain't true.
As i said before the "CHURCH" is a cult. It fits the profile of a cult 100%. One of the number one thing a cult requires is that unless you are a member or if you leave, you cannot recieve salvation. the second thing is they use banishment excommunication to control their members through fear and intimidation. Last of all they assign diety to their central figure. (NOTE HOLY SEE)
You are a sad, small man, Steve. The Catholic Church is no cult...It is the main stream of religion that all other religions were born out of...We came first...We were the first Judeo-Christians...And we will be here, long after nimrods like yourself are dead and buried. So...You keep on with the keepin' on...You keep that backwards, pigheaded "knowledge" going. You spout on...And prove me right every time anyone is unfortunate enough to have to listen to you. And the rest of us Christians...You know...The ones who believe in an ecumenical approach to life and who realize that St. Peter isn't standing at the Pearly Gates saying, "Baptists, room 112....Catholics, room 227...Now mind you watch your step as you go past the Covenant's room, they think they're the only ones up here"...The rest of us will go on and smile as you turn over in your grave at the very thought...lol
Now, my apologies to the rest of the Forum...This is the Political board, not the Relgion board...Stevie, you might consider laying off of this witch hunt you're on (or should I say "cult" hunt) and let the rest of everyone get back to their Politics, since you don't have a leg to stand on where the Catholic Church is concerned. ::)
Quote from: Catwoman on February 25, 2012, 04:00:50 PM
Now, my apologies to the rest of the Forum...This is the Political board, not the Relgion board...Stevie, you might consider laying off of this witch hunt you're on (or should I say "cult" hunt) and let the rest of everyone get back to their Politics, since you don't have a leg to stand on where the Catholic Church is concerned. ::)
Your arguing with the wrong person. The catholic church says no one is christian unless they are catholic. SO yes st peter is at the pearly gates saying ohh your baptist, to hell with ya....oh your catholic enter...Argue with the doctrine i quoted. The catholics do not believe anyone is christian but them.
As for the comment they were there in the beginning, thats somewhat skewed. Yeah they were, in the form of independant churchs. But they got consolidated by the government and became apostate.
also try
those who who knowingly and deliberately commit the sins of heresy(rejecting divinely revealed doctrine)
or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a non catholic church) no salvation is possible until they return to live in the catholic unity
That is a quote directly from catholic.com
Quote from: srkruzich on February 25, 2012, 04:16:36 PM
The catholic church says no one is christian unless they are catholic. SO yes st peter is at the pearly gates saying ohh your baptist, to hell with ya....oh your catholic enter...Argue with the doctrine i quoted. The catholics do not believe anyone is christian but them.
I am wondering what your definition of Christian is. The Catholic definition of Christian is a friend and follower of Jesus. I have taught religion classes for nearly 20 years. Everything Catholics do is because Jesus did it. Baptism, Communion, Confession, etc. Catholics do NOT believe you have to be Catholic to be Christian and we do NOT believe you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven. We do believe that you should follow the teachings of Jesus. You are completely wrong in your ideas about the Catholic Church and it is very offensive to those whom their religion is so very precious.
Back to the thread, those who said birth control/abortion is between you and your family, that is what the Churches are argueing for. The government needs to stay out of our personal lives and we should not be forced to pay for something which we find so morally offensive We can't just sit back and do nothing. We must fight for what we believe in. That is the only way will remain truely free.
Uh, which room is for us mild moderate tolerant Presbyterians? 8) ;D
Steve, I won't argue religious history with you, but since all of that we read in the Bible was translated from the ancient and errors are still found and whole books were tossed out, it seems very insensitive to tell anyone they are wrong or wronger than anyone else.
May I assume you are not a Mason?
By the way, you know perfectly well I was not advocating the murder of any children and I'm surprised at you suggesting such a thing! Come ride that ambulance with me and see how we care for all God's children when 9-11 is called. We don't judge any of them, ever. I was stating fact, not personal opinion.
I taught the pre hospital childbirth block in the National EMT course for more than 30 years and we had to tell and show all the bad stuff too, not just how to help the mother deliver that adorable 9 month 8 pound chubby cheeked angel. It can be really heart wrenching and I'll leave it at that. Know this, our EMTs are of all religious faiths and we treat all religious faiths. Did you know we can even Baptize if it is wanted by the family? I've done it!
Quote from: Diane Amberg on February 25, 2012, 07:17:11 PM
Uh, which room is for us mild moderate tolerant Presbyterians? 8) ;D
Steve, I won't argue religious history with you, but since all of that we read in the Bible was translated from the ancient and errors are still found and whole books were tossed out, it seems very insensitive to tell anyone they are wrong or wronger than anyone else.
May I assume you are not a Mason?
By the way, you know perfectly well I was not advocating the murder of any children and I'm surprised at you suggesting such a thing! Come ride that ambulance with me and see how we care for all God's children when 9-11 is called. We don't judge any of them, ever. I was stating fact, not personal opinion.
I taught the pre hospital childbirth block in the National EMT course for more than 30 years and we had to tell and show all the bad stuff too, not just how to help the mother deliver that adorable 9 month 8 pound chubby cheeked angel. It can be really heart wrenching and I'll leave it at that. Know this, our EMTs are of all religious faiths and we treat all religious faiths. Did you know we can even Baptize if it is wanted by the family? I've done it!
No i just asked a question. DIdn't accuse you of anything. You said it would cost taxpayer and I personally wanted to know if that is the reason we kill off our young as a society.
I've seen and helped and spent time trying to make childrens lives much better, but they don't even allow someone to do that anymore. I tried several times years ago at the local orphanage to take them fishing but the government won't allow it. Give them some kind of normalcy to their existance. The govt doesn't give a rats ass about them, they just shove them in a home and lock em up. No wonder we get them so screwed up as adults.
I don't know why baptism is necessary to preform by a EMT. You would have to be a ordained minister to preform it. The point is this, the children are better off being born no matter what. Death is the worst thing that can happen to them anything else they have a chance at life. Yeah it can be rough but i was raised that adversity builds strenght and character.
My Dad was the child of a abusive alchoholic father. Guess what. he did not abues me nor did he drink a drop his entire life. He broke that cycle. He took beatings for his brothers actions as a child. SO he caught all the hell. But did it defeat him Nope. It defined him and made him stronger. AND in the end, my grandfather asked his forgiveness and he forgave him.
I benefitted from his sacrifice because i was never beaten. I was disclipined but not beaten. If i needed my butt busted he was the one to do it. And he did. But he was always there for us and loved us. Died in his yard while my kids were there. At his funeral it amazed me that a man that was statistically destined to be a alchoholic/abuser/drunk was infulential in hundreds of lives, and had some of those people fly in from all over the world to attend his funeral.
Thats what 1 child can do. And amazingly enough society still hasn't got it. 35 million murdered over the last 40 years.
Quote from: jprxmkt on February 25, 2012, 07:00:31 PM
I am wondering what your definition of Christian is
Honestly it doesn't mean much these days. Everyone claims to be one. From the ones who say they live a good life, to they never cheat lie or steal, pay their taxes, ect... they claim to be christian.
THE ONLY definition is being saved by grace through faith. Nothing else will do. :)
Quote. The Catholic definition of Christian is a friend and follower of Jesus.
Hmmm judas was a friend and followed jesus. and he's in hell. So that definition must not be right.
QuoteI have taught religion classes for nearly 20 years. Everything Catholics do is because Jesus did it.
jesus didn't sprinkle :) And Jesus doesn't say No one can come to the father but through the church. (quoted verbatim from a catholic priest.)
QuoteCatholics do NOT believe you have to be Catholic to be Christian and we do NOT believe you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven.
I quoted directly from catholic.com. And it specifically stated in the catachism that you cannot be saved unless your in the Catholic church. IF it is not so, then the doctrine is in error and therefore heresy.
QuoteWe do believe that you should follow the teachings of Jesus. You are completely wrong in your ideas about the Catholic Church and it is very offensive to those whom their religion is so very precious.
Can you explain the doctrine? It is pretty simple and straightforward. IT says those who who knowingly and deliberately commit the sins of heresy(rejecting divinely revealed doctrine)
or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a non catholic church) no salvation is possible until they return to live in the catholic unity
QuoteBack to the thread, those who said birth control/abortion is between you and your family, that is what the Churches are argueing for. The government needs to stay out of our personal lives and we should not be forced to pay for something which we find so morally offensive We can't just sit back and do nothing. We must fight for what we believe in. That is the only way will remain truely free.
I agree on birth control but murder is still murder. Hasn't changed since cain slew able you know
Keeping reading on catholic.com if you are truly wanting answers rather than reading a few comments and picking and choosing what you want to blow out of proportion.
Good Lord, Steve...Each church has it's own manmade dogma...YOURS INCLUDED. It's that Church's way of insuring that they are the recipients of your monies, your time, your talent...They promote the fact that they have the key for you reaching Heaven. The only thing that is heretical is a person claiming to be a Christian and then damning others because they aren't Christian enough for their liking. "Judge not lest ye be judged", I think the Good Book states. If that's the case...You're in for a shock when you do eventually head beyond that jumpin' off place. Now...Get back to the topic at hand and quit handing out judgements on what a Catholic is and isn't...You're not in any position to judge anything to do with Christianity at all, if how you've sounded is anything to go by.
Quote from: jprxmkt on February 25, 2012, 10:17:39 PM
Keeping reading on catholic.com if you are truly wanting answers rather than reading a few comments and picking and choosing what you want to blow out of proportion.
And, NO, he's not going to keep reading anything that might invalidate his small, twisted, anti-Catholic stance. After all...If he kept reading...He might just find out that Catholics are indeed Judeo-Christian and are ecumenical, to boot...We can't have that, now can we.
You know, I don't normally respond to open stupidity of this sort. However...I have always been of the opinion that silence implies permission...And I refuse to stay silent in the face of open bullying. The kind of backwards, pigheaded prejudice that has been exhibited here is nothing short of manure-laden bullying.
Quote from: Diane AmbergAs far as Christianity is concerned,take care. History has shown that no other group has taken more lives under the guise of religion than Christianity.
True!~~
I refuse to debate or argue religion of any kind.. I won't do it!
What works for you.. works for you.. what works for me.. works for me. If it makes you a better person to yourself, your family and others around you.. then I would say, whatever it is that you are doing.. keep it up! :)
Its not my business the way you worship.. nor am I ignorant to think that I am spiritually advanced enough to have the "right to judge" anyone else on anything that they do in their lives.. To put yourself in that level is very dangerous!
Once again I say~~~ What I do and the way I do it isn't anyone's business..unless I choose to make it your business. It is between only me and my God!
Why can't people try~~just for a day, try to look past their narrow labels and judgements and see that no matter if you believe as an Agnostic, Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Wiccan or whatever.. you are still a human being, that in the end.. will answer to a supreme power of energy.
I won't answer to what you have done unless I have a hand in it. So if you don't have a hand in it.. leave it alone!
Enjoy your life and everything that it has to offer.. do the best you can do each and every day.. and love and laugh to the fullest. Help those around you with love and support and other means at your disposal.. but leave the judging and accusations in a buried box somewhere.
Since this is about abortion.. The women who have it on their shoulders and heart to have to make these kinds of decisions need love, care and gentle support. Its heart breaking, a lifetime of burden and something that they, the soul of their child and their God and angels will have to work through. Its not for you or anyone to make it about what YOU think is right or wrong.
I could go on and on for pages and pages.. but it is futile.. as it then becomes what I refuse to do and that is a spiritual debate against what I think is right and what you think is right.
Never works and generally all is lost because emotions prevail and thoughts shut down when that happens.
As Warph said.. it is his right to speak and voice his opinion and thoughts just as it is mine and anyone else who still lives in this country. It is also our right to read whats out there and disregard it.. take something from it or totally ignore it if we choose.
That's the wonderful thing about being a true born and breed American.. We HAVE that right!! We don't have that right to banger, ridicule and judge others.
((((( PS~~ Warph.... Soothsayer?? ? Really?? *grinning*.. I'll look at the method of divination as a higher class of oracle.. instead of the lowly fortune teller.. LOL~~ ;) ))))
I hadn't planned on touching this hot potato again, but for the sake of the many people who read this forum, I really need to address Steve's misinformation about who can Baptize.
In an emergency, (which is why you'd have an EMT involved in the first place,) EMTs, nurses, doctors, in fact anybody, whose heart is open to it can baptize a dead or about to die newborn if they know how. I've done two and both families were very grateful.
Under those circumstances the person doesn't have to be ordained. This is especially important if a person lives a long way from a hospital and something goes terribly wrong,or already has. The baby has to be born, or at least the head or a significant part of the body exposed ,as in a footling presentation. If death is obvious or the situation is incompatible with life ,the baby can be Baptized with whatever water is available. A few drops are placed on the baby's head and the person says,"I baptize thee in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen.''
It's no big secret and can be very comforting for the family who wants as little time as possible between the tragedy and and the baptism. With the two I did, the receiving nurse at the hospital immediately asked if we had Baptized the baby because she would have if we hadn't, if the mother wanted it done.
If we do it, the water becomes "appropriate" (holy?) and the baptismal mark appears on the baby's soul just as if the whole formal ceremony had happened in church.In some cases when the mother dies and the baby dies shortly before birth, the baby will be removed for Baptism if the family feels very strongly about it.
There are many more examples and "what if's" but I think this is enough.
Steve knows a lot, but in a limited areas. I don't mind that he didn't know, but it bothers me terribly that he just dismissed me and what I said as hooey.That really hurt. I'll go away now and take a break from the forum. Enjoy your vacation from me.
I didn't dismiss you diane, I don't see the significance nor the reason to baptise. first of all a baby needs no baptism. Religiously they are under the protection of God. Secondly without confession of salvation all baptism does is get one wet. Third baptism does not save anyone. It is just a outward expression of a inward change and it is only 1 baptism of two that take place. The first baptism in a believer is the second they are saved. They are baptized by the holy spirit. THe second baptism is a symbolic representation of that first baptism.
So thats why i don't understand the necessity of it being done by emts or even doctors. But it is what it is.
I do believe that God knew what he was doing when he placed the San Andreas Fault through the State of California. I wonder when He will "push the button."...Warph
California Bill Would Allow Nurses and Midwives To Perform Early Abortions
SAN DIEGO – Nurses and midwives would be able to carry out early abortions in California, under a bill proposed by a Democratic state senator.
State Sen. Christine Kehoe (D-San Diego) wants non-doctors to be allowed to perform aspiration abortions during the first trimester, The Los Angeles Times reported Tuesday.
Kehoe said half of the state's counties do not have an abortion provider and she wants to make it easier for women to access the procedure.
Only doctors and surgeons are allowed to carry out the procedure, also known as a vacuum abortion, currently in California, while four other states allow non-physicians to do so.
"We believe it will give many California women access to earlier, safer procedures in the first trimester of their pregnancy," Kehoe said at a news conference in Sacramento on Tuesday.
The Times reported it appears the proposal has significant levels of support in the Democrat-dominated Legislature.
However it was slammed by California Right-to-Life lobbyist Camille Giglio, who said changes to the current law would mean "casting aside the safety of the woman."
Besides the precedent in privacy violation, is this the beginning of affirmative action for homosexuals? :
California judges must say if they're gay. In order to make sure gays and lesbians are adequately represented on the judicial bench, the state of California is requiring all judges and justices to reveal their sexual orientation.http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/california-asks-judges-gay-or-straight_631857.html
Hmmmm..... and isn't this stacking the deck for the gay-related court cases on the horizon? Interesting timing, huh. The US Supreme Court just accepted cert. in an affirmative action case.... see Fisher v. Texas. (( http://blog.quimbee.com/2012/02/university-of-texas-and-the-supreme-court-thrust-affirmative-action-back-into-the-spotlight/ ))
Maybe all the judges should write-in either "bisexual" or "varies" in protest. In any case, Get Ready To RUMBLE!
....Warph
Many points come up in the abortion debate. Here's a look at abortion from both sides - 10 arguments for abortion and 10 arguments against abortion - for a total of 20 statements that represent a range of topics as seen from both sides.
Where do you stand?
Pro-Life - 10 Arguments Against Abortion
1.Since life begins at conception, abortion is akin to murder as it is the act of taking human life. Abortion is in direct defiance of the commonly accepted idea of the sanctity of human life
2.No civilized society permits one human to intentionally harm or take the life of another human without punishment, and abortion is no different.
3.Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result. And with 1.5 million American families wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.
4.An abortion can result in medical complications later in life; the risk of ectopic pregnancies doubles, and the chance of a miscarriage and pelvic inflammatory disease also increases.
5.In the instance of rape and incest, proper medical care can ensure that a woman will not get pregnant. Abortion punishes the unborn child who committed no crime; instead, it is the perpetrator who should be punished.
6.Abortion should not be used as another form of contraception.
7.For women who demand complete control of their body, control should include preventing the risk of unwanted pregnancy through the responsible use of contraception or, if that is not possible, through abstinence.
8.Many Americans who pay taxes are opposed to abortion, therefore it's morally wrong to use tax dollars to fund abortion.
9.Those who choose abortions are often minors or young women with insufficient life experience to understand fully what they are doing. Many have lifelong regrets afterwards.
10.Abortion frequently causes intense psychological pain and stress.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pro-Choice - 10 Arguments For Abortion
1.Nearly all abortions take place in the first trimester, when a fetus cannot exist independent of the mother. As it is attached by the placenta and umbilical cord, its health is dependent on her health, and cannot be regarded as a separate entity as it cannot exist outside her womb.
2.The concept of personhood is different from the concept of human life. Human life occurs at conception, but fertilized eggs used for in vitro fertilization are also human lives and those not implanted are routinely thrown away. Is this murder, and if not, then how is abortion murder?
3.Adoption is not an alternative to abortion, because it remains the woman's choice whether or not to give her child up for adoption. Statistics show that very few women who give birth choose to give up their babies - less than 3% of white unmarried women and less than 2% of black unmarried women.
4.Abortion is a safe medical procedure. The vast majority of women - 88% - who have an abortion do so in their first trimester. Medical abortions have less than 0.5% risk of serious complications and do not affect a woman's health or future ability to become pregnant or give birth.
5.In the case of rape or incest, forcing a woman made pregnant by this violent act would cause further psychological harm to the victim. Often a woman is too afraid to speak up or is unaware she is pregnant, thus the morning after pill is ineffective in these situations.
6.Abortion is not used as a form of contraception. Pregnancy can occur even with responsible contraceptive use. Only 8% of women who have abortions do not use any form of birth control, and that is due more to individual carelessness than to the availability of abortion.
7.The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to civil rights. Take away her reproductive choice and you step onto a slippery slope. If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, what about forcing a woman to use contraception or undergo sterilization?
8.Taxpayer dollars are used to enable poor women to access the same medical services as rich women, and abortion is one of these services. Funding abortion is no different from funding a war in the Mideast. For those who are opposed, the place to express outrage is in the voting booth.
9.Teenagers who become mothers have grim prospects for the future. They are much more likely to leave of school; receive inadequate prenatal care; rely on public assistance to raise a child; develop health problems; or end up divorced.
10.Like any other difficult situation, abortion creates stress. Yet the American Psychological Association found that stress was greatest prior to an abortion, and that there was no evidence of post-abortion syndrome.
Quote from: Catwoman on February 25, 2012, 10:28:50 PM
And, NO, he's not going to keep reading anything that might invalidate his small, twisted, anti-Catholic stance. After all...If he kept reading...He might just find out that Catholics are indeed Judeo-Christian and are ecumenical, to boot...We can't have that, now can we.
Catwoman, you've got that right about Catholic church being in the ecumenical movement.
That church is a hierarchy along with the world movement. Protestants are on board this universal stuff too.
I think that Steve and Warph have made some good comments for sure.