I didn't realize paid overtime was a component of salaried employee compensation...
Neither did a bunch of other salaried employees when it was revealed by Commissioner Ritz at yesterday's county commission meeting that Mr. Mitchell, EMS Director, receives a county salary for paramedic duties, a separate county salary for directer duties, and has been claiming and receiving 'overtime' every month for many years. His explanation was that he's entitled to it and was told to do it from the beginning.
My research showed that under the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FSLA), Mr. Mitchell would be an exempted salaried employee... meaning 'overtime' provisions of the FSLA don't apply to him.
Mr. Ritz also asked if the EMS had made a large ($20,000+) advance payment on the ambulance bank loan in August as requested some months earlier by Commissioner Hendricks. Mitchell's answer? "No, we didn't have the money." I wonder where the money has been going.
Mr Ritz moved to stop the overtime nonsense... the motion was seconded and passed 2 to 1. But Commissioner Liebau was quick to offer Mitchell a chance to come back and renegotiate a new (presumably more costly) contract, which Mitchell instantly accepted. Gee, a current compensation package worth $50,000 to $60,000 isn't enough for an Elk County EMS Director who's department averaged 12.5 ambulance runs per month in the last two months?
Thanks Commissioner Ritz for looking out for the taxpayer. It's a welcome departure from the status quo.
Three questions and a reminder....
1) What world does one need to live in to not know that salaried folks don't get overtime pay?
2) What does this say about the knowledge level of county management?
3) Has the empty rock budget got you down?
Reminder: Our property taxes are due soon.... again.
I think I'll pass on that second cup of coffee today. A penny saved is a penny that can be mis-spent by local government.
Thanks for visiting.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Mr. Mitchell is the EMS Director and as such receives a salary whether he works one hour or twenty-four hours a day. Mr. Mitchell is also a paramedic and spends many hours working as such. Should he not be paid for his work as a paramedic? He doesn't have to be a paramedic to hold the position of director. Just how much would it cost the county to employ a full time director and another full time paramedic if they could find one? I don't believe that he is being paid overtime for director work, but it is possible that he receives overtime pay for his work as a para as the department is always short on employees.
Now let's look at where that $20,000 should have come from. If it were to come from ambulance runs, 12 and 1/2 runs a month isn't going to make it along with the other EMS expenses. If on the other hand, Mr. Mitchell were given the $20,000 for the payment and he didn't make it, we would have something to worry about. There is no way that anyone is going to convince me that Mr. Mitchell isn't doing what is best for Elk County. If that means that he gets paid a reasonable amount for his services, so be it. Just where do you get the $50,000 to $60,000 figure? The EMS director wasn't receiving that when Janet filled the position. What she got plus her pay as Sheriff didn't even come to that.
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 11:27:34 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but Mr. Mitchell is the EMS Director and as such receives a salary whether he works one hour or twenty-four hours a day. Mr. Mitchell is also a paramedic and spends many hours working as such. Should he not be paid for his work as a paramedic? He doesn't have to be a paramedic to hold the position of director. Just how much would it cost the county to employ a full time director and another full time paramedic if they could find one? I don't believe that he is being paid overtime for director work, but it is possible that he receives overtime pay for his work as a para as the department is always short on employees.
He's paid a salary for both positions. The salaried status precludes overtime. Only hourly employees are entitled to overtime.
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 11:27:34 AM
Just where do you get the $50,000 to $60,000 figure? The EMS director wasn't receiving that when Janet filled the position. What she got plus her pay as Sheriff didn't even come to that.
I also have no doubt, after hearing his rant yesterday, that Mr. Mitchell has nothing but the best for himself in mind either.
Never managed a payroll have you dear?
Para salary: ~3600/month
Director salary ~700/month
Overtime claims (unknown)
Paid Health insurance: ~ 1200/month paid by taxpayers
Total monthly compensation: ~ $5500 x 12 = $66,000/year
Seems I was being conservative in my estimates.
Getting paid two salaries to hold government jobs which overlap? You gotta be kidding! What idiot thought up this scheme.
No company in their right mind would pay two salaries for one employee to do the two jobs. Thats foolishness. Does two salaries include two benefit packages as well?
Why not pay the ole boy 3600 a month to be a paramedic and director. Shoot he doesn't have to do much on either job other than be on call. I would LOVE a sweet deal like that! Give me 3600 to do both jobs! 22.50 a hour isn't chump change around here!
Oh also Patriot, OVERTIME is not part of salaried employees package. Thats not even considered. THough comp time could be if you spend a inordinate amount of hours working. I used to be salaried too and when i was spending 96 hours a week they comped me days off to pay for the excess hours.
ALSO OVERTIME stops when you make 27.50 per hour. Its not required by law when you reach that amount for hourly employees.
So who was it that granted him overtime in the first place? I doubt that he just decided to do it all on his own.
I would like to get something straight here now. Is it Mr. Mitchell that this thread is criticizing? If it isn't, then let's just drop his name now and not mention it again.
No, I do not have any experience in payroll other than doing the taxes for it.
Now for the facts. Do you think that $3600.00 a month is out of line for a paramedic?
Do you think that $700 a month is too much to pay someone to run the EMS? It doesn't seem to be very much. Not enough to pay for someone to do only that and nothing else. They would have to have another job, so why not have a paramedic be the director, also. And why shouldn't he be paid for doing two jobs? If you were doing it, wouldn't you want to be paid for both of them. What is the difference in a paramedic doing the two jobs and someone else being the director and holding down another job?
As to the overtime, the mistake was made a long time ago. Perhaps by someone who isn't even here now. Instead of bitching about it now, why not give the commissioners time to get it straightened out. If they don't get it done, then is the time to bitch.
Steve, have you ever been a paramedic? Do you know what they have to do every day besides make ambulance runs? It certainly amounts to more than just being on call. Being on call means that you can't do anything that you can't just drop and run. You have to be in uniform all day, barring you from a lot of things, such as bull riding. Takes all the fun out of the day.
Oh, yes, there is the matter of the health insurance that is paid for them. How many jobs do not provide health insurance for their employees? And whose fault is it that it is so expensive?
Wichita Paramedic $36,000 a year median pay
Topeka Paramedic $35,653 a year median pay
Kansas City Paramedic $37, 730 a year median pay
Lowest $27,960, highest $46,645
Does this info help?
Theses area's have extremely higher populations than Elk County has which translates in a lot more call outs and considerably more work don't ya think?
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
Do you think that $700 a month is too much to pay someone to run the EMS? It doesn't seem to be very much. Not enough to pay for someone to do only that and nothing else. They would have to have another job, so why not have a paramedic be the director, also. And why shouldn't he be paid for doing two jobs? If you were doing it, wouldn't you want to be paid for both of them. What is the difference in a paramedic doing the two jobs and someone else being the director and holding down another job?
Yes i would call it excessive. Add 100 a month or even 200 to their salary but no more.
QuoteSteve, have you ever been a paramedic? Do you know what they have to do every day besides make ambulance runs? It certainly amounts to more than just being on call. Being on call means that you can't do anything that you can't just drop and run. You have to be in uniform all day, barring you from a lot of things, such as bull riding. Takes all the fun out of the day.
Nope i haven't but yes i have been on call before in the industry i was in, 24 x7, No i'm not dumb enough to go crawling on top of a 1800 pound animal with deadly weapons attached to their heads and pissed off to boot
QuoteOh, yes, there is the matter of the health insurance that is paid for them. How many jobs do not provide health insurance for their employees? And whose fault is it that it is so expensive?
Most jobs do not provide 100% covered health insurance. And rightfully so. It is the employees responsibility for their insurance. Does the company pay auto or home insurance? why pay for health insurance for the employee? That is only a benefit which was started back in the 50's, which we will see disappear in the near future. It is the last of a age where youonly had to work 40 hour weeks and your wife stayed at home and kept house.
Quote from: Ross on November 01, 2011, 05:17:57 PM
Wichita Paramedic $36,000 a year median pay
Topeka Paramedic $35,653 a year median pay
Kansas City Paramedic $37, 730 a year median pay
Lowest $27,960, highest $46,645
Does this info help?
Theses area's have extremely higher populations than Elk County has which translates in a lot more call outs and considerably more work don't ya think?
WOW he's paid extremelly well! Must be nice when the county can't afford gravel
Holy shit that's a lot of money! I'm a county employee receiving an hourly wage. My monthly income varies between $1200-$1500 a month and when I get overtime it's done by comp time. I expect to be getting some comp time in the near future or when the snow starts blowing again and we are out plowing the damn roads off, so everyone can get to town to go to the coffee shop. I am so proud that I voted for Doug Ritz as opposed to the Yes Man they were trying to put into office. After looking at other Paramedic salaries in other towns with a helluva bigger population, what kind of moron allowed this to go on for how many years? I can think of a few people that should be run out of town on a rail with tar and feathers! Oh and Wilma, in 2008, the Muslim in the White House started preaching about free healthcare to everyone...NOW the insurance rates have gone up. I know I'm wasting my breath, you just won't get it.---Mr. Robert L. Walker
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
So who was it that granted him overtime in the first place? I doubt that he just decided to do it all on his own.
Excellent question and I believe some council person should dig into it and get us an asnwer.
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
I would like to get something straight here now. Is it Mr. Mitchell that this thread is criticizing? If it isn't, then let's just drop his name now and not mention it again.
I do believe it was mentioned that Mr. Mitchell addressed the Commissioners in open session considering the situation making it public information. And I don't hear anyone bad mouthing Mr. Mitchell just discussing his situation as a County Employee.
He is one of our (yours, miine and everyone else who pays taxes) employee. It was not handled in executive session. So, what is the problem?
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
No, I do not have any experience in payroll other than doing the taxes for it.
Now for the facts. Do you think that $3600.00 a month is out of line for a paramedic?
It sounds far more than fair concerning the incomes and cost of living in Elk County. If he is being paid $43,200 a year.
Recall Wichita Paramedic $36,000 a year median pay
Topeka Paramedic $35,653 a year median pay
Kansas City Paramedic $37, 730 a year median pay
Lowest $27,960, highest $46,645
And the cost of living is considerably higher in the city then here.Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
Do you think that $700 a month is too much to pay someone to run the EMS? It doesn't seem to be very much. Not enough to pay for someone to do only that and nothing else. They would have to have another job, so why not have a paramedic be the director, also. And why shouldn't he be paid for doing two jobs? If you were doing it, wouldn't you want to be paid for both of them. What is the difference in a paramedic doing the two jobs and someone else being the director and holding down another job?
Yes!
I believe they said he is being paid for both jobs. Does he want more money, I would think so. I too would like more money. I'd like my Social Security check amount doubled. LOL Is more money availablefor his position? I don''t know. Is the job worth more money? In my honest opinion, no.
See the amounts paid in KC, Wichita and Topeka below.
EMS in Sedgewick County make approximately 115 runs per day. I'm not looking up the other two cities this should give you an idea of what happens where they get paid the bigger money.
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
As to the overtime, the mistake was made a long time ago. Perhaps by someone who isn't even here now. Instead of bitching about it now, why not give the commissioners time to get it straightened out. If they don't get it done, then is the time to bitch.
I believe it was said thet the Council asked him to return to negotiate his salary, and I believe what we are doing is only a discussion.
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
Steve, have you ever been a paramedic? Do you know what they have to do every day besides make ambulance runs? It certainly amounts to more than just being on call. Being on call means that you can't do anything that you can't just drop and run. You have to be in uniform all day, barring you from a lot of things, such as bull riding. Takes all the fun out of the day.
Being on call means they can call you and you can be doing whatever you want to be doing and normally does not require you to be in uniform. On call does not recieve pay nor overtime.
Being on standby means being at home and ready to go. For employees on an hourly wage that means regular pay unless it runs over 40 hours for your work week, then it means overtime? But he is not on a 40 hour work week.
This is also an occupation decision each persons makes and accepts either salary or wage when it is offered to them.
Job Description for Paramedic
Provides advanced life support care to patients who are ill and/or injured. Transports and transfers patients and assesses the extent of an illness or injury to establish and prioritize medical procedures to follow. Applies artificial respiration or administers oxygen in cases of suffocation and asphyxiation, dispenses antiseptic solution to prevent infection, starts and administers intravenous fluids, and performs other emergency medical procedures during the ambulance ride. Requires a high school diploma, registered with the EMT National Registry, licensed by State EMS Authority, and 2-4 years of related experience. Must be CPR certified. Familiar with standard concepts, practices, and procedures within a particular field. Relies on experience and judgment to plan and accomplish goals. Performs a variety of tasks. Typically reports to manager.
In this case he get's an extra $700 a month for doing how much work? How long would it take to do the routine and most likely pre-written paper work forms for 12 1/2 average runs per month?
Quote from: Wilma on November 01, 2011, 02:47:37 PM
Oh, yes, there is the matter of the health insurance that is paid for them. How many jobs do not provide health insurance for their employees? And whose fault is it that it is so expensive?
It is considered a benefit of working just like the pay check is a benefit of working.
I once worked a job with a rotating shift that changed weekly, it was really rough on my whole physical system. But it was a job I accepted at the going pay scale which I never complained about. I was stuck in the position for 7 1/2 years which then made me elidigible to move up to a better job due to seniority. It's the way the systemed worked. I to recieved health insurance which I had to pay half of the premiums and still considered myself fortunate.
Personally, I would think he would be more than happy with his income. If not, I am sure ther are plenty of people that would be. there are a lot of people out of work. Perhaps we could find a paramedic with 12 children and boost our school enrollment.
I'm confused Wilma. Yesterday your post in the Coffee Shop said---------------------------------
Quote from Wilma:
The call would be made to whoever is on duty at the time and they might have to change into the proper clothes. Another ten minute.
Now today you post this-------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Wilma:
You have to be in uniform all day, barring you from a lot of things,
Quote from: Ross on November 01, 2011, 07:16:07 PM
Typically reports to manager.
Ross, it must be really nice to have a job in which you report to yourself! I do realize that in his case as Director he reports to the Commissioners but as Paramedic he reports to himself.
Why doesn't the Sheriff just take the duties as Director of EMS back?----Jennifer
Jarhead, I was referring to the times that the person might not be properly attired, such as having just risen from bed, or perhaps in the shower. All the times that I see them, they are in uniform, but I have to admit that I do not see them when they are in their own homes.
Steve, I used bull riding as an example, not that many paramedics would be doing it. But you have to admit there are a lot of things that a person who is on call and in uniform cannot do. I am thinking of cleaning house, raking leaves and other dirty jobs.
Jennifer, the job of Director of EMS was never a part of the job of Sheriff. Janet did it as a separate job. Thus, she was filling two salaried positions with the county at the same time. It did not automatically go along with the position of sheriff. The commissioners decided to give the job to Mr. Mitchell at the time Janet left the sheriff's office and I believe that he has held it since. He was already a paramedic in which he continued. I think you would agree that $700.00 a month wouldn't be enough for him to give up his position as paramedic. It seems to me that Janet was receiving about the same amount in that position.
Don't forget the many hours of con.ed. Paramedics and EMTs have to take annually. Paramedics also work under a doc's license.
Quote from: kshillbillys on November 01, 2011, 06:07:12 PM
Holy shit that's a lot of money! I'm a county employee receiving an hourly wage. My monthly income varies between $1200-$1500 a month and when I get overtime it's done by comp time.
As long as that comp time is at the rate of 1.5 hours comp for every 1 hour of overtime worked.
Source: Fair Labor Standards Act, Section 3 (s)(1)(C).
Why would school teachers who are salaried and have the summer off with pay I believe, recieve comp time?
I hear that is what is happening at West Elk. Anybody have any knowledge on this?
Teachers sign a contract for a predetermined salary each school year. Instead of having a 9 month pay out, West Elk pays it's teachers over a 12 month span so they won't have to save back money to live on over the summer. So 9 months or 12 months, they are going to receive the same salary. And salaried workers DO NOT get overtime.
Lisa
Why would they get comp time since the are salaried
and do not qualify for overtime is the question?
Comp time is used to avoid paying overtime when overtime is a paid situation?
Teachers are not required overtime and therefore don't actually qualify for comp time, now do they?
Teacher's are not required overtime? Maybe not required, but certainly necessary. I will bet my bottom penny with Bud thrown in that no teacher at West Elk works an 8 hour day or a 40 hour week.
Quote from: Wilma on November 03, 2011, 06:30:23 AM
Teacher's are not required overtime? Maybe not required, but certainly necessary. I will bet my bottom penny with Bud thrown in that no teacher at West Elk works an 8 hour day or a 40 hour week.
It is in their contract.
Just like when the school board tried to with hold the teachers refund from their medical insurance. The teachers contract stated the monies were the teachers money. And rhe teachers showed up with the contract to enforce it.
That's what contracts are about. And I say good for them.
But where is it in their contract that says they get comp time?
From the Wichita Eagle based on October 2010 figures...
Butler County EMS Director salary: $63,847.68
Sedgwick County EMS Director salary: $86,000.00
Are we as big an operation as they are? I sorta doubt it.
Do you have confirmation as to the salary of our EMS director or is still just supposition? Do the reported salaries of the Butler County and Sedgwick County EMS directors include the health insurance that was included with the Elk County salary? Our EMS director gets $700.00 per month for managing the EMS. How does that compare with the other countie's EMS directors?
Quote from: Wilma on November 03, 2011, 12:29:02 PM
Do you have confirmation as to the salary of our EMS director or is still just supposition?
I have reviewed official Elk County records regarding wage payments as well as official Elk County records regarding taxpayer contributions to healthcare insurance premiums. Any other questions?
It isn't in my husbands contract that he get comp time. He is paid a salary, so he doesn't qualify for it. I don't know any teachers who would.
Lisa
Quote from: farmgal67357 on November 03, 2011, 04:20:29 PM
It isn't in my husbands contract that he get comp time. He is paid a salary, so he doesn't qualify for it. I don't know any teachers who would.
Lisa
When it's all said and done, I have no problem with management giving some comp time (required by law, contract or not) for a salaried employee who puts in serious extra effort & time. My problem is with any arrogant employee that demands it or says they are entitled to it (comp time or additional pay for the time).
I don't think that in this case you will find that an arrogant employee demanded a high salary, overtime or anything to which he wasn't entitled. He didn't set up the system and he was glad to get the position of director. However, he could not give up his job as a para as the director's job didn't pay enough to live on. Actually, the director doesn't have enough to do to keep one person working all day. This is after all, a small community, a small ambulance service with two ambulances and barely enough employees to have them both out at the same time.
Now, really, if you think there is something wrong with the way things are done here, do you have a better way?
Quote from: Wilma on November 03, 2011, 06:31:59 PM
Now, really, if you think there is something wrong with the way things are done here, do you have a better way?
Yep.
Tell us about it.
its always been the strategy of the far right to claim knowledge of a better way, but not to reveal their secrets until elected!
Patriot 2012?
And it has always been a tactic of leftists, statists and socialists to conceal their true intentions behind ad hominem attacks and deceit.
Anmar 2012?
Quote from: Wilma on November 03, 2011, 06:44:14 PM
Tell us about it.
I have been for months. Turn off the soaps and try reading for understanding.
Quote from: Patriot on November 01, 2011, 11:41:03 AM
He's paid a salary for both positions. The salaried status precludes overtime. Only hourly employees are entitled to overtime.
I also have no doubt, after hearing his rant yesterday, that Mr. Mitchell has nothing but the best for himself in mind either.
Never managed a payroll have you dear?
Para salary: ~3600/month
Director salary ~700/month
Overtime claims (unknown)
Paid Health insurance: ~ 1200/month paid by taxpayers
Total monthly compensation: ~ $5500 x 12 = $66,000/year
Seems I was being conservative in my estimates.
Patriot, Does he really get $3,600 a month? Seems like that is more than the sheriff makes. Maybe I need to become a paramedic and work in Elk County?
Quote from: Janet Harrington on November 06, 2011, 11:00:55 PM
Patriot, Does he really get $3,600 a month? Seems like that is more than the sheriff makes. Maybe I need to become a paramedic and work in Elk County?
No, Janet... the actual base is $3597, I believe. ::) By playing the 'overtime' game the gross has actually pushed $4100 a few times.
So, if he is getting $3,597.00 a month for gross, what is the sheriff making? Like I said, maybe I should become a paramedic and come back to Howard to work.
We are doing a lot of talking about suposssedly overpayment of salaries and what it is costing the county. What about wasted time? What about employees that arrive late to work, then spend half an hour visiting before starting any work? Then there are the ones that leave five minutes before quitting time.
Well, I just cannot imagine in my wildest dreams that a paramedic is paid so well in Elk County. I don't have any reason to not believe Patriot, but I am going to call the county clerk tomorrow and get that information told straight to my own ear. Will let you know what I am told.
Quote from: Wilma on November 07, 2011, 05:28:38 PM
We are doing a lot of talking about suposssedly overpayment of salaries and what it is costing the county. What about wasted time? What about employees that arrive late to work, then spend half an hour visiting before starting any work? Then there are the ones that leave five minutes before quitting time.
SIMPLE SOLUTION. USed it in business every day. give them 1 warning. Next time fire them. Late to work is forgiveable in certain instances. Leaving early is not forgiveable unless approved. All of it is THEFT. A termination offense.
Steve: in theory that is good and does work, as well in a manufacturing situation.
However in the county business...well "I have kids and a husband, and that comes before my job!"
Well if they are an Elected Official...the rules don't always apply.
If they are appointed, or hired....the Elected official needs to have that person...so there is a 'work around rule'.
Steve, you wouldn't last in a County job. However, I do suscribe to some of your methods.
Now, on the flip side...I don't have kids, so it's discrimiation as to who gets to go home first or take time off.
see the grey side of the courthouse?
ready
and if those quotes of base pay are true, then somewhere back a few commisioners ago...a deal was made.
That is a rediculous amount of money being made for a very low parcel vs. employee county!!!!!!!!!!!!
ready
I will tell you this. This person is extremely good at what he does. He is a fantastic paramedic and I would never say he wasn't. But, the salary is pretty good for no more runs than Elk County does. If I knew Elk County was going to pay that well, I would have stayed on as an EMT. Oh, by the way, when I lost the election, I did ask the commissioners if I was going to be able to stay on as an EMT and the Director, and I was told no, that they didn't believe it would work out. The commissioners did not see that my job as sheriff and my job as EMS director were two different things. I was pretty much pushed out of working in Elk County at that point. Oh well, Such is life and life does go on.
I erred in some of my original posts on this thread. Let's update....
1. EMS folks ARE collecting overtime.
2. Even though salaried, they ARE entitled to overtime according to federal law.
3. As I understand it, they are counting 'on call' hours toward the overtime calculations.
4. This poses some problems, as the federal law says time on call, if not at the workplace, is NOT 'at work time.'
5. Some of our EMS folks spend some (maybe a lot of) 'on call' time at home, which should not count toward their 40 hrs/week and/or overtime.
6. The federal wage & labor law, by the way, is different, in some respects for law enforcement personnel.
If you're feeling like studying: http://www.dol.gov/whd/flsa/ (http://www.dol.gov/whd/flsa/)
Here are some updated wage figures as provided by the County Clerk's office. I'll let you figure out who the employees are. It appears one is getting shorted while another is doing very nicely in the actual pay department. Mr. Mitchell is also requesting some substantial increases for himself and his staff for 2012... and I mean SUBSTANTIAL.
ELK COUNTY EMS WAGES
Base Salary 2010 Actual Pay 10 Month Base (2011) 10 Month Actual Pay
Employee 1 $43,164 $43,595 $35,977 $38,181
Employee 2 $34,092 $32,947 $28,411 $27,675
Employee 3 $29,196 $29,938 $24,355 $24,811
Employee 4 $24,420 $25,208 $20,358 $20,953
When figuring the employee compensation package, don't forget to add the taxpayer provided costs of health insurance.
We pay over $500/month for a single and somewhere way over that if the employee opts for family/dependent coverage. There's also an employer (taxpayer) contribution to KPERS for their pension package.
Remember this too... the Butler county EMS Director has a salary of about $66,000.yr. Don't know how much bigger their operation is, but it's likely larger than ours is. Sedgwick county EMS Director makes about $86,000. And they make almost as many ambulance runs in a day as we do in a year.
Now, about those $8/hr - $9/hr county employees who haven't seen a raise for 5 years.
The EMS director salaries that you are quoting for other counties, does that include duties as an active Paramedic as ours does? You are comparing paramedic salaries in Elk County to EMS directors in other counties. How do our paramedic salaries compare?
Just don't get it, do you. The real issue(s) pass right over your head.
Could you try to answer my question? How do our paramedic salaries compare with paramedic salaries from other counties. I am trying to get it, but you are comparing apples and oranges instead of apples and apples.
Quote from: Wilma on November 08, 2011, 09:29:55 AM
Could you try to answer my question? How do our paramedic salaries compare with paramedic salaries from other counties?
Go look it up.
No Wilma, I'm more interested in issues involving abuse of power, mismanagement, failure of fiduciary duty, apparent incompetence, conflict of interest, manipulation of funds for personal gain, violation of law and lawful regulation than I am about prevailing wage issues. Prevailing wage issues for non-management employees are, frankly, secondary. If you insist on focusing on such issues ahead of those I've mentioned, try comparing the wages for a grader driver, maintenance supervisor or truck driver here vs. Sedgwick county or even Wilson county. We're cheapskates to be sure, but that fact is secondary to the matters of why we're cheapskates.
So are you refusing to answer my question about comparing salaries?
Wilma,
You want me to shove slivers of bamboo under Patriots finger nails for "refusing" to answer your question ? Or give him the ol shock treatment---you know "red is positive---black is negative ". ;)
Quote from: Wilma on November 07, 2011, 05:28:38 PM
We are doing a lot of talking about suposssedly overpayment of salaries and what it is costing the county. What about wasted time? What about employees that arrive late to work, then spend half an hour visiting before starting any work? Then there are the ones that leave five minutes before quitting time.
How do you know that they are just "visiting" and not discussing what needs to be done? What is quitting time for the county? And exactly which county employees are you referring to? If you're going to accuse somone of something at least have the gonads to name them!
Well, it is good to know that we are off Elk Konnected and back to bashing the county. I did talk to the county clerk's office today. I got some salary information, but have not put into words how to explain how the EMS salaries work. I will get that done tomorrow night.
All right, I was waiting for someone to say something like that. What I am talking about is the minutes of darkness after starting time when no one can see enough to do anything outside. Wasted time for the road department. I don't know what the men are doing during this time, but wouldn't it make sense for them to go back on 8 hour days so that their 8 hours would be daylight hours. Outside work can't be done in the dark. Same thing in the evening when it gets dark before quitting time. Can't work after it gets dark, now can they? Wasted time. Not the employees fault. Ten hour days are fine in the summer with the extra hours of daylight, but those two extra hours are wasted in the winter.
The days like today when it rains is a different story. Nothing can be done about that, but not much work can be done either. I would like to remind you all about the holiday some years ago when it snowed. I can't remember which holiday it was except it was one when people go visiting or have company. Our road guys here in Howard went out and plowed roads and I would bet they opened driveways, too, so that people could have the day they had planned.
Quote from: Patriot on November 08, 2011, 01:01:33 PM
Go look it up.
No Wilma, I'm more interested in issues involving abuse of power, mismanagement, failure of fiduciary duty, apparent incompetence, conflict of interest, manipulation of funds for personal gain, violation of law and lawful regulation than I am about prevailing wage issues. Prevailing wage issues for non-management employees are, frankly, secondary. If you insist on focusing on such issues ahead of those I've mentioned, try comparing the wages for a grader driver, maintenance supervisor or truck driver here vs. Sedgwick county or even Wilson county. We're cheapskates to be sure, but that fact is secondary to the matters of why we're cheapskates.
Patriot, Elk County has always underpaid the road employee. I don't know why. Seems as if it is more important to have rock for the roads. I believe that the EMS budget and the road budget are mill levy budgets. EMS brings in money (income) from ambulance fees. The road budget has very little income if any coming in. So, my question to county commissioners would be this...why not raise the wages of the road employees and pay for those raises by raising the mill levy? We taxpayers pay for it anyway by paying real estate and personal property taxes. Give our road employees the raises that they deserve. And I don't understand why road employees have to take comp time instead of gettng paid time and a half. Answer that one for me, county commissioners.
Mother, I believe that was Christmas Day and our road employees gave up time at home to open up roads. However; they get paid not much over minimum wage to do this. As I said in a previous post, the road employees have always been given the shaft when it comes to wages from Elk County. I worked for the county for 25 years and saw many commissioners come and go. None of those commissioners have ever rectified this issue.
As for the 10 hour days, I think, (my opinion only), that the courthouse people like the 10 hours days, so that's why the road department works 10 hour days. I am probably wrong. 10 hour days do work well during daylight savings time. I have worked 10 hour days and had 3 days off at a time and I loved it. I don't blame anyone for wanting 10 hour days, but how productive is it for a road department? Only road department people can answer that. However; I'm sure all we will hear is smart ass answers and we will be blasted and told how stupid we are for asking questions. It seems as if that is the only way anyone can answer anything on this forum. Don't have a different opinion because they are the only ones who are right. Call me stupid, ignorant, my favorite putdown "you were a worthless sheriff when you were sheriff", I don't care. My wages don't depend on taxpayer money anymore and, I, for one, am thankful to the voters for that. Less stress and I can ask the questions and call everyone stupid. LOL
Janet,
How stupid can you be?
Asking questions.
So you can be called stupid.
Oh, ny word.
Don't slap me for being stupid enough to ask,
Jusr kidding.
LOL
Ok. Found my notes from talking to the county clerk's office. Here is what I learned.
We have two Mobile Intensive Care Technicians, (MICT), or paramedics. They both get paid $2,686.18 a month. The director, who is one of the MICT's, gets $911.79 a month. So, the director is making $3,597.97 a month. But, keep in mind, the director is working as a MICT and being the one responsible as the director. This is two different jobs. I cannot answer as to how the EMS employees are on the schedule. I also did not ask about the Emergency Medical Technicians, (EMT), that work for the county.
Now, while I was talking to the lovely lady at the county clerk's office, she asked me how we paid the EMS crew when they had to work calls on their days off when I was director. You know what! I can't remember. That was 7 years ago. Anyway, she told me that if an EMS person is called to take a run on their day off, they are paid for a day's wage, no matter how long the call is. A person really needs to study the Fair Labor Standard laws to understand how EMS people should be paid and how law enforcement people should be paid. There is a difference. However; I am not up on the current laws, so I will not speak any more about that.
Now, an Elk County MICT is being paid $32,324.16 a year gross pay. I do not know what the benefits are. A Sedgwick County MICT is making $2,592.00 a month, (starting), making $31,104 a year gross pay. Remember, this is a starting wage. Our MICT/Director has about 10 years' experience under his belt. Our other MICT, I can't answer for that one.
Now, back to the MICT/Director. Yes, with his monthly salary of $911.79 to be the director combined with his $2,686.18 a month to be a MICT, he is drawing $43,175.64 gross pay a year. Then, if he takes a call on his day off, he gets a day's pay there, I am sure it adds up to quite a bit. However; Elk County EMS sure doesn't have very many people on the payroll and when that second ambulance needs to go out, who do you suppose gets called? The EMS people who are on day's off. Is it fair to the road department personnel who do not get paid enough to put beans on the table to feed the family? Nope, but that is comparing apples to oranges.
If the county commissioners are having a problem with what the EMS people are making, then they are the ones who need to fix it. Just as they are the ones who need to raise the wages of the road employees.
Ahhhh. County Commissioners. You gotta love them.
Quote from: Ross on November 08, 2011, 10:03:11 PM
Janet,
How stupid can you be?
Asking questions.
So you can be called stupid.
Oh, ny word.
Don't slap me for being stupid enough to ask,
Jusr kidding.
LOL
Ahhh, Ross. That is so nice that you asked. LOL
Forgot to mention this, but a county commissioner should not have brought up any information about a paid employee that is not an elected official in an open meeting. IMHO it doesn't matter that there were not any names mentioned and that the employee is the one who brought up his own name. From what I was told today, there was enough information that the employee could be identified. Could be a law suit there. I was also told that the county attorney didn't have a problem with the way the county commissioners handled it. However; if I was that paid employee, I would probably be talking to an attorney right now. IMHO that was totally wrong and should have only been handled and discussed in an executive session.
County Commissioners. Gotta love' em. Believe me. I have worked with many, many county commissioners, so I know how some of them can do what they think is right, but get the county into some hot water.
Quote from: Janet Harrington on November 08, 2011, 10:13:04 PM
A person really needs to study the Fair Labor Standard laws to understand how EMS people should be paid and how law enforcement people should be paid. There is a difference. However; I am not up on the current laws, so I will not speak any more about that.
I have and I am......
1. Under the Fair Labor Standards Ace (FLSA), Emergency Personnel are not exempt an, as such must be paid ivertime if they work over 40 hrs per week. Yes, there are some minor differences and other differences if either type (LEO/EMS) are trained and expected to engage in fire suppression.
2. They may be salaried and are to be paid overtime based on an hourly rate calculated from their salary as follows:
Base Salary = $3597.97
Annual = 43175.64 (monthly x 12)
Weekly = 803.30 (annual/52)
Hourly = 20.08 (weekly/40)
Overtime rate = $30.12 (hourly x 1.5)
After a salaried employee has worked 40 hours in a week they are paid their overtime rate for each hour worked over 40 in addition to their base salary.
3. On call employees are considered 'working' if the on call time is performed at the place of employment. If the on call time is any place else (home for example) they are considered not working. So, unless on a response, that on call time DOES NOT count toward their 40 hr work time.
24 hour on call at home with a 2 hour ambulance run = 2 hours worked toward the 40.
I don't think we do that here. We count on call time as hours worked. ???
Don't want to accept this based on the poster, then go to the following link and research it: http://www.dol.gov/whd/flsa/ (http://www.dol.gov/whd/flsa/)
Patriot, that is so correct. Overtime pay has to be based on "actual time worked." So, if EMS is getting paid OT for on call time, that is an incorrect way to figure their pay. Since I was not at the meeting, I don't know if this is true and this is not something that the lovely lady in the county clerk's office and I talked about. Thank you for doing the studying. I would, but I just am not up to trying to figure all this out. That is what we elect county commissioners and county clerk's for.
I can tell you that when I was in office, the county clerk, (Marvis Gaddie), the county attorney, (David Brace), and I attend a Fair Labor Standards seminar in Emporia, Kansas. I learned alot and I was taught alot from KLETC. If the current administration is not up on the laws of paying wages, then it is so sad for all of us.
Quote from: Janet Harrington on November 08, 2011, 10:22:55 PM
Forgot to mention this, but a county commissioner should not have brought up any information about a paid employee that is not an elected official in an open meeting.
Wrong, wrong, wrong Janet. You best go study the KOMA and all AG opinions and KS Appellate & Supreme Court decisions on the subject. I'm too tired now to cite it all here, but it can easily be found. Additionally, our county commission have only entered legally into executive session twice since May of this year. I have a copy of a Petition for Injunctive Relief and Mandamus that cites the specific complaints.
The road employees have been working 10 hour days longer than the rest of the county employees. I am thinking that Jimmie Rader implemented that and I thought it was a good idea until I had the time to observe the county road yard. Winter days are too short for a 10 hour working day. So what do they do during the time that it is too dark to do their jobs? They can hardly take the time off and take a shorter pay check. They don't get that much to begin with. They have to be at work during the working hours whether they can do anything or not. Someone needs to change things so that they can have daylight while on the job.
So do all those facts pertaining to the pay schedule of our EMS mean that our paramedic/director is overpaid and on the take as the original post in this thread implied?
I am back because I think I am wrong in stating that Jimmy Rader implemented the 10 hr. day for the road department. I don't know when it was started except that they were doing the 10 hr. day before the courthouse went to it. What I remember that Mr. Rader was connected with was in keeping the courthouse open during the noon hour. Something I appreciated.
Quote from: Patriot on November 08, 2011, 10:44:56 PM
Wrong, wrong, wrong Janet. You best go study the KOMA and all AG opinions and KS Appellate & Supreme Court decisions on the subject. I'm too tired now to cite it all here, but it can easily be found. Additionally, our county commission have only entered legally into executive session twice since May of this year. I have a copy of a Petition for Injunctive Relief and Mandamus that cites the specific complaints.
I wil respectfully disagree with you, Patriot. However; right now I can't back up what I believe, so if you will give me a little time, I will do some research on this.
Quote from: Janet Harrington on November 09, 2011, 07:29:24 PM
I wil respectfully disagree with you, Patriot. However; right now I can't back up what I believe, so if you will give me a little time, I will do some research on this.
I'll be interested in your findings. Please consider the following in your study:
1. Attorney General opinion, in part...
Kansas Open Meetings Act (KOMA)
Michael J. Smith, Assistant Attorney General
Revision date: August 2009
5. Some of the subjects which may be discussed in an executive session:
a. Personnel matters of non-elected personnel
1. To discuss an individual, not groups. [AG Opins. No.
81-39; 88-25; 80-102. But see 13 Kan.App.2d 117 (1988)].
The purpose of this exception is to protect the privacy
interests of individuals. Discussions of consolidation of
departments or overall salary structure is not a proper topic.
2) The fact that the commissioners did not address the specifics of salary of any single employee and that public employee wage amounts are public records.
3. Ultimately, if nothing of a private nature is to be discussed (specifics of disciplinary action, personal family issues, etc. for example), entry into executive session for most all other matters is optional:
KSA 75-4319: Closed or executive meetings; conditions; authorized subjects for discussion; binding action prohibited; certain documents identified in meetings not subject to disclosure. (a) Upon formal motion made, seconded and carried, all bodies and agencies subject to the open meetings act may recess, but not adjourn, open meetings for closed or executive meetings.Please notice the word 'may recess". This wording does not create a mandate as was recognized in AG Opinion, in part:
Kansas Open Meetings Act (KOMA)
Michael J. Smith, Assistant Attorney General
Revision date: August 2009
3. The decision to hold executive session is discretionary; the KOMA never requires an executive session.I await your conclusions.
I forgot to give an answer to this. Patriot is correct on the open meeting act. Thank you for the lesson.