"This is something I have thought about for a long time. It's about white people and why
they don't understand us.... I think it's because the most important thing for white people is
freedom. The most important thing for Indian people is honor.... But the Indian has always
been free. We are free today. We have always been freer than the white man, even when he
first came here....
"The white world puts all the power at the top.... When someone gets to the top, they have
the power to take your freedom. When your people first came to our land, they were trying to
get away from those people at the top. But they still thought the same way, and soon there
were new people at the top in the new country....
"In your churches there is someone at the top. In your schools, too. In your business. There
is always someone at the top, and that person has the right to say whether you are
good or bad. They own you.
"No wonder Americans always worry about freedom. You have so damn little of it. If you
don't protect it, someone will take it away from you. You have to guard it every second, like a
dog guards a bone....
"When you came among us, you couldn't understand our way. You wanted to find the
person at the top. You wanted to find the fences that bound us in--how far our land went, how
far our government went. Your world was made of cages, you believed in them. They defined
your world, and you needed them to define ours.
"Our old people noticed this from the beginning. They said the white man lived in a world of
cages, and that if we didn't look out, they would make us live in a world of cages, too.
"So we started noticing. Everything looked like cages. Your clothes fit like cages. Your
houses looked like cages. You put fences around your yards so they looked like
cages too. Everything was a cage. You turned the land into cages, little squares.
"Then after you had all these cages, you made a government to protect the cages. And that
government was all cages. All laws about what you couldn't do. The only freedom you had
was inside your own cage. Then you wondered why you weren't happy and didn't
feel free. You made all the cages, then you wondered why you didn't feel free.
This is a quote from the book, "Neither
Wolf Nor Dog" by Kent Nerburn
It certainly would have been something to have lived here before it got " civilized". Wish you could turn back the clock. I personally wouldn't miss the " improvements".
Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 26, 2011, 07:39:10 AM
It certainly would have been something to have lived here before it got " civilized". Wish you could turn back the clock. I personally wouldn't miss the " improvements".
But Jefe there wouldn't have been no circle of chairs, then what??
It's called "survival of the fittest". Think you could handle it in real life , no place to hide?
I would go back in time if I could take my electric hand-held hair dryer, my electric washer, my electric dryer, my electric dishwasher, my electric refrigerator, my car (and my airconditioning for both the car and the house) and a power plant (and gasoline refinery) back with me! LOL THESE are the good ol' days! There'd be NO way I'd volunteer to go back to the days when people were lucky to live to the ripe old age of 47! I'll stay here, thank you... ;D
I've done it and its not something i would consider freeing. Its nothing but work every minute of the day. Your tied down to making sure you got enough of this and enough of that for the night.
the point really doesnt have anything to do with convenience, electricity, etc. yall
this is why most of you cant understand why I dont freak about "oh THEY are going to take your freedom"......no they wont...they didnt give it to me to start with.
I like my washer/dryer/ac/fridge too but that aint the point :)
I know, Mrs. C... ;D...I was merely answering the men, talking about returning to the past, which come up in conjunction with your post. I understand the dichotomy that Mr. Nerburn was talking about. It comes down to cultural differences but the same yearning for freedom. It is odd, I agree, that one civilization seeks it's freedom through organization and constraint, but it is what the Europeans have been doing (and that's where the white man came from, originally) for centuries. Now, I do take a bit issue with his implying that the Native Americans didn't have the same top-down organizational structure...There were chiefs, there were councils and there were "policemen", just like the White Man had, just on a smaller scale.
Yeah Cat....BUT......and I will try to explain that but.....BUT I may not be able to satisfactorily.....
yes there were chiefs.......BUT only as long as they made good decisions......if nobody respected them or they tried to gain "power" they didnt stay chief very long......the chief had a responsibility to the People.....to make sure no-one did without...that everyone was provided for....to protect the People. There were hereditary chiefs but if nobody respected them they would not follow them.
they had councils yes.......but no decisions were made until everybody who wanted to had spoken.....and due consideration was given and more often than not until the Grandmothers had been consulted.
they had policemen of a sort.....but most generally to keep somebody from jumpin ahead on hunts or war-parties and bringing hunger or danger to the People and they were people that had earned the respect of the People by their deeds not because of who their family was......
the basic difference between europeans and natives is in a nutshell if I can get it right is that europeans feel the NEED to have somebody "in charge".......the Natives would/could/and generally do DECIDE if they WANTED somebody in charge.....
the europeans put up fences and put prices and self worth on possessions.....the greatest honor for natives was generosity in SHARING their possessions with whoever was doin without.
the natives weren't yearning for freedom.....they already had it....it's not something somebody can GIVE.....I seriously cant explain it clearly......its like all the hullaballoo about prayer for instance and where "they" say you can or cant do it.....the truth of the matter is you can do it anywhere anytime....it's only when you want to be PUBLIC and show off that you are doin it that you run into problems.......it's just a fundamental difference.........
just so the rest of you know I'm not gonna get pulled into a big discussion...this is me and Cat visitin....
I agree, Pam. The organizational structure of the Native American was looser and freer than that of the European invaders. It was a structure that fit the manner in which some were nomadic, some were farmers and some were coastal or swamp dwellers. It always fascinated me how relics from differing areas of the country could be found where they "shouldn't be". I think the issue here is that of the concept of freedom, like you said, not actual freedoms. That having been said, the European civilization viewed its greatest freedom being in its civilizing effect...Laws being constructed to ensure everyone's ability to live without fear (of invasion, etc.). As far as I've been able to read and understand, the Native Americans viewed their greatest freedom as being the ability to travel, trade, exist wherever they chose to...The ability to worship as they chose...The ability to come and go, the ability to invade, plunder and take slaves or not invade, as they chose. In that respect, they are exactly like the Europeans...It's just that they did it on an individual basis, whereas the Europeans did it on an entire state level.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on July 27, 2011, 09:49:09 AM
Yeah Cat....BUT......and I will try to explain that but.....BUT I may not be able to satisfactorily.....
yes there were chiefs.......BUT only as long as they made good decisions......if nobody respected them or they tried to gain "power" they didnt stay chief very long......the chief had a responsibility to the People.....to make sure no-one did without...that everyone was provided for....to protect the People. There were hereditary chiefs but if nobody respected them they would not follow them.
Ohh k. Now explain how that is different than now. I DO NOT Respect Obama one bit. As far as he's concerned i won't do a damn thing he says or respect any decision. He's a piss poor excuse for a chief.
Quotethey had councils yes.......but no decisions were made until everybody who wanted to had spoken.....and due consideration was given and more often than not until the Grandmothers had been consulted.
That would be somewhat of a democracy which will not work on a large scale outside of a village.
Quotethe basic difference between europeans and natives is in a nutshell if I can get it right is that europeans feel the NEED to have somebody "in charge".......the Natives would/could/and generally do DECIDE if they WANTED somebody in charge.....
the europeans put up fences and put prices and self worth on possessions.....the greatest honor for natives was generosity in SHARING their possessions with whoever was doin without.
Thank God i'm not a european! LOL. Plus Me need anyone in charge? Sheesh. i would prefer that we toss the whole damn bunch out. The only thing we need out of Government is the combigned resources to defend this country. Thats its. So we could actually do without washington. Just create a mililary comprised of so many folks from each state. No need for feds to control it.
Quotethe natives weren't yearning for freedom.....they already had it....it's not something somebody can GIVE.....I seriously cant explain it clearly......its like all the hullaballoo about prayer for instance and where "they" say you can or cant do it.....the truth of the matter is you can do it anywhere anytime....it's only when you want to be PUBLIC and show off that you are doin it that you run into problems.......it's just a fundamental difference.........
And the forefathers who wrote the constitution did not grant freedom with the constitution. They recognized freedom as a inalienable right given to us by God. No one else. All they did was to create law to keep the powers that be at bay and chain them down so they would not be able to take our freedom from us. And that is possible. You are not free if your a slave. Doesn't matter if your on a plantation or under a government that restricts you by force.
Steve.....................blah blah blahdy blah..............yeah I know.....you been there done that and did it better longer faster..........yeah I know
You and I agree on ONE thing....Washington is a pit of greedy idiots and needs to be cleaned out and started over with new blood that hasnt made politics their sole career.....because face it.....politicians know how to do ONE thing and one thing only......LIE well enough to convince you they aren"t and keep that cash cow rollin..........
QuoteAll they did was to create law to keep the powers that be at bay and chain them down so they would not be able to take our freedom from us.
and there you have it......the proof that you dont understand the point......I've not got time to futilely argue with you for no good
purpose so carry on and never mind.................
Pam, I get what you were tryng to say in your post. And thank you for putting it there...Too many people have forgotten why we came to this land in the first place...FREEDOM...Maybe not Native American-variety freedom, but freedom, nonetheless...And that means, if you don't agree, fine...You can go on your jolly way and leave us to our conversation...Sound familiar? ::)
Cat and Pam, I've enjoyed reading you both.Thanks for letting me "eves drop".
Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 26, 2011, 09:33:50 PM
It's called "survival of the fittest". Think you could handle it in real life , no place to hide?
Who's hiding, I'm not.
Oh,
you are hiding. behind that phony boss cow name.
Good Job.
My name is real.
I've been up against bullies and they are real easy. All blow and no go.
So I can handle it in real life, been there done that.
Ross, this was such a nice friendly disussion of American freedom as seen from different viewpoints, why did you have to inject your nasty remarks in it. Politics don't have to be nasty. Discussions don't have to be nasty. There is such a thing as friendly disagreement without name calling. Grow up.
He's not worth your effort, Wilma...Just laugh and go on... ::) Where else, other than maybe TruTV or AFV, are you going to get such consistent entertainment? lol
And, Jefe is just as real as any of us on here...He's just got a sense of humor regarding himself, which is refreshing... ;D Ross, you could learn a bit from him! Lighten up, dude...You're going to give yourself a coronary at this rate! lol
You know Rosco, 80 percent of all illness is directly related to stress. The fight or flight response. You might want to take a walk down to your carp pond and relax. :D
Quote from: Wilma on July 27, 2011, 05:53:07 PM
Ross, this was such a nice friendly disussion of American freedom as seen from different viewpoints, why did you have to inject your nasty remarks in it. Politics don't have to be nasty. Discussions don't have to be nasty. There is such a thing as friendly disagreement without name calling. Grow up.
I'm sorry Wilma did you not read Jefe's smart remark?
Well here it is just so know I was simply responding to him about hiding. And I believe I have read responses to Jefe whatever as boss cow or cow boss and that was not refered to as name calling. Thank You.
Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 26, 2011, 09:33:50 PM
It's called "survival of the fittest". Think you could handle it in real life , no place to hide?
Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 27, 2011, 07:57:42 PM
You know Rosco, 80 percent of all illness is directly related to stress. The fight or flight response. You might want to take a walk down to your carp pond and relax. :D
I'm not the least bit stressed bu you sound stressed with all that fight or flight stuff and hiding.
And I don't have a carp pond thank you.
Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 27, 2011, 07:57:42 PM
You know Rosco, 80 percent of all illness is directly related to stress.
Are you feelimg ill? I hope it clears up soon Jefe.
So you see Wilma just a friendly response.
I call jefe "Bossman" as a nickname...Nothing more. And no...As far as I know, he doesn't take any offense at it...Or, maybe he has...Boss? Have I insulted you with my nickname for you? Hope not...If so...I extend my apologies to you. I guess I could just start calling you, "Sir"... ;D ;D
In my book, that would be an insult, a sarcastic one.
Sorry that you feel that way, Wilma...I'll stick to "Jefe" if you'd rather I do that. The man deserves nothing but respect all around.
For godsake Vulgar Ross go make love to your long suffering wife. In fact just take her out on the porch swing and watch the lightening bugs and the cicadas. Just hug her . Let Patriot do your internet posting.
David
Quote from: Catwoman on July 27, 2011, 08:45:14 PM
I call jefe "Bossman" as a nickname...Nothing more. And no...As far as I know, he doesn't take any offense at it...Or, maybe he has...Boss? Have I insulted you with my nickname for you? Hope not...If so...I extend my apologies to you. I guess I could just start calling you, "Sir"... ;D ;D
Catwoman, I wasn't refering to what you said. It was what someone else said. But that okay I understand with a limited understanding and the willingness to back a bully and a loser how someone would misconstrue what is happening.
Jefe can make inuendos of hiding and be a smart@$$ and tcall people names and that's fine. Or ya'all don't read so well.
Quote from: sodbuster on July 27, 2011, 09:32:33 PM
For godsake Vulgar Ross go make love to your long suffering wife. In fact just take her out on the porch swing and watch the lightening bugs and the cicadas. Just hug her . Let Patriot do your internet posting.
David
What David are you stupid. You said you were not going to be talking to me anymore. Don't you remember?
Does jefe need your support, too?
He was insinuation I might need to hide and wonder if I could handle it ?
Now he hiding behind a fake name is bringing in support to call me names.
He has Wilma and Catwoman as cheerleaders and now he has a male cheerleader.
Way to go.
Let's here a cheer for Jefe ---- Go.
I appreciate your post Pam and I think I get it. Enough said.
Quote from: Ross on July 28, 2011, 05:45:06 AM
Catwoman, I wasn't refering to what you said. It was what someone else said. But that okay I understand with a limited understanding and the willingness to back a bully and a loser how someone would misconstrue what is happening.
Jefe can make inuendos of hiding and be a smart@$$ and tcall people names and that's fine. Or ya'all don't read so well.
Mr. Ross...I hate to break it to you but I wasn't answering you...You weren't even a blip on my radar screen. Believe it or not, it's not all about you. I was answering Wilma and asking Jefe a question...Relax, dude. No need to pop a vein when you weren't part of the equation at any point.
He can't help it Cat, in his mind it IS all about him. I don't mind in the least being called "boss", reminds me of my masonry days. Don't call me sir though, my father is SIR.
Ross, you don't interpret ordinary speech very well? ::)
Everyone not siding with you is " stupid " ?
Sorry I don't cut and paste so you could actually follow along and not get mixed up.
Sorry , MrsC, for screwing up your thread. I understand what you are saying, and it is hard to verbalize. It's kind of like, matter cannot be created , or destroyed. Similar with freedom ?
Cat, I was referring to being called "Sir," not "Boss". In my book being called "Sir" would be an insult, a sarcastic one. Or maybe I should say, if I refer to someone as Sir", it is an insult. If Jefe doesn't like "Boss", he can say so himself.
I guess my calling him "Sir" reflects my upbringing...I was always taught to call gentlemen "Sir" and ladies "Ma'am". In fact, when I have talked to my male principals in the past, I have always called them "Sir", rather than by their first names. Using a first name is getting too familiar with them, in my opinion. In fact, my principal could gauge what level the situation at hand was...If I was saying "Sir" or "Ma'am", then they knew it was OK and well in hand. If I said their formal name, "Mr." or "Mrs." whatever, then they knew it was egregious and needed attention from them...If I used their first name, they knew it was an emergency. I know saying "Yes, Sir" and "no, Ma'am" is an essentially Southern thing but in my family, I was taught it as a gesture of respect.
It was in mine, too, but then I married an Elk County redneck.
LOL!!!!! ;D
Thanks Roma :)
No prob Jefe, there are trolls everywhere :)
Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 28, 2011, 08:24:35 AM
Sorry , MrsC, for screwing up your thread. I understand what you are saying, and it is hard to verbalize. It's kind of like, matter cannot be created , or destroyed. Similar with freedom ?
yeah :)
Be patient with me while I learn, Master (Mrs. C! ;D)...
But, seriously...I have learned a great deal while reading you, Pam. Thanks for all your efforts!! :-)
Thanks Cat but I usually learn myself! I can honestly say there are a few things I have changed on since having discussions on here and some have been cemented in stone never to change! I have learned from all of you :)
This "Sir" and "Ma'am" business is a little foreign to me. Our terms of respect were "Mr." and "Mrs". Absolutely no addressing adults by their first name. We had "Aunts" and "Uncles", too. Our children were taught this, too, as were their friends. I was Mrs. Weyrauch long after the children were out of school. Gradually, their contempories are addressing me as "Wilma". Which leads me to a story. Are you ready for another story?
About fifteen years ago, we were buying our prescriptions at my favorite Wal-Mart. The clerk that handed out the prescriptions would always read off my first name and address me by that if she used a name at all. Then one day, the clerk said "Mrs. Weyrauch." Can you imagine how that took me back to my children's school days when that was how I was known? She also remembered me when I would show up, which in itself, was unusual. So, one day I asked her about it. Now she wasn't middleaged, she was a young person, younger than my youngest. She told me that she had been taught to address her elders in that manner and so that is what she does and that she liked to remember people. Hearing her call me "Mrs. Weyrauch" made me feel young again.
Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 26, 2011, 09:33:50 PM
It's called "survival of the fittest". Think you could handle it in real life , no place to hide?
Jeffe was taking to me in this one.
And I responded with;
Quote from: Ross on July 27, 2011, 02:28:17 PM
Who's hiding, I'm not.
Oh, you are hiding. behind that phony boss cow name.
Good Job.
My name is real.
I've been up against bullies and they are real easy. All blow and no go.
So I can handle it in real life, been there done that.
Then Wilma wanted in with her personal opinion;
Quote from: Wilma on July 27, 2011, 05:53:07 PM
Ross, this was such a nice friendly disussion of American freedom as seen from different viewpoints, why did you have to inject your nasty remarks in it. Politics don't have to be nasty. Discussions don't have to be nasty. There is such a thing as friendly disagreement without name calling. Grow up.
I did not call any names. But I do believe You are equally nasty on other threads Wilma.
But Jefe's insuinuating remark "
Think you could handle it in real life , no place to hide?" is fine with you.
Great.
Then Catwoman wanted to be involved with her opinion;
Quote from: Catwoman on July 27, 2011, 06:04:54 PM
And, Jefe is just as real as any of us on here...He's just got a sense of humor regarding himself, which is refreshing... ;D Ross, you could learn a bit from him! Lighten up, dude...You're going to give yourself a coronary at this rate! LOL
.
I am sorry Wilma, Sir Jefe could not teach me a thing, I believe he lacks the ability. He could not even answer simple questions on another thread. Ha, ha.
You see Wilma you and Catwoman made it about me . I didn't makea it about me, re-read your post. It's there in black and white.
Quote from: Ross on July 28, 2011, 05:45:06 AM
Catwoman, I wasn't refering to what you said. It was what someone else said. But thats okay I understand with a limited understanding and the willingness to back a bully and a loser how someone would misconstrue what is happening.
Jefe can make inuendos of hiding and be a smart@$$ and call people names and that's fine. Or ya'all don't read so well.
And then this male cheerleader in California get real nasty and you ladies say nothing. What a refined group you folks are. I really think you each deserve the other.
Quote from: sodbuster on July 27, 2011, 09:32:33 PM
For godsake Vulgar Ross go make love to your long suffering wife. In fact just take her out on the porch swing and watch the lightening bugs and the cicadas. Just hug her . Let Patriot do your internet posting.
David
There you have it all. YOU made it about me. So now, Wilma and Catwoman stop it, please.
Stop making it about me.
Cheer for Jefe.
Ya'all are a real refined group. And I wish to cheer you on.
Ya,all keep your cheerleading group real tight . And perhaps you can get a real cheer together.
Have a great evening.
Quote from: Ross on July 28, 2011, 04:59:33 PM
Jeffe was taking to me in this one.
And I responded with;
Then Wilma wanted in with her personal opinion;
I did not call any names. But I do believe You are equally nasty on other threads Wilma.
But Jefe's insuinuating remark "Think you could handle it in real life , no place to hide?" is fine with you.
Great.
Then Catwoman wanted to be involved with her opinion;.
I am sorry Wilma, Sir Jefe could not teach me a thing, I believe he lacks the ability. He could not even answer simple questions on another thread. Ha, ha.
You see Wilma you and Catwoman made it about me . I didn't makea it about me, re-read your post. It's there in black and white.
And then this male cheerleader in California get real nasty and you ladies say nothing. What a refined group you folks are. I really think you each deserve the other.
There you have it all. YOU made it about me. So now, Wilma and Catwoman stop it, please.
Stop making it about me.
Cheer for Jefe.
Ya'all are a real refined group. And I wish to cheer you on.
Ya,all keep your cheerleading group real tight . And perhaps you can get a real cheer together.
Have a great evening.
Ross I think a lot of people are trying to send you a message and you are not getting it.
Quote from: frawin on July 28, 2011, 05:19:49 PM
Ross I think a lot of people are trying to send you a message and you are not getting it.
Mr. Frawin,
That is not a lot of people, just a cheerleading group.
I just sent them a message. They don't own the forum!
And bullying doesn't work on here.
And that they chose to make me the center of attention just as you are doing right here..
Read the post to understand it.
Please don't send me anymore private messages.
They will not remain private as I am not a sneaky private person.
Thank you.
You sir, have a good evening as well.
That is correct Ross...these private messages from pissy people are quite irritating!! Never say in private what you don't have the guts to say in public...
What I hear being said is, "you all have a tightnit group that you're not letting me be a part of, so I'll take my ball and go home"...
The only thing binding us together is a moderate, albeit a bit conservative, mature viewpoint that isn't swayed by hystrionics. You're welcome to be a part of us, Mr. Ross...Honest, you are, as well as the rest of your private boy's club...And there have been brief glimmers of a more evolved viewpoint that have eminated from you, before the paranoia sets in once again and you return to your original stance.
Really, Mr. Ross...You're welcome as can be, if you can relax, laugh a bit more than cry about the banality of this common life we share and just get on with it. No membership dues, no secret handshake and no wondering about little green men hidden in the shadows...Just a relaxed bunch of adults who are making their way through this life the best that they can... ;D...Come on in and sit down awhile! ;D
I'm sittin here........shakin my head................MARVELING......................heres a pissy message for yall.... out in the open..........where everybody can see............
You sound like a pissy third grader! You make snide remarks to people and then you come back and "oh my....I wasn't wude...I was polite....I just can't understand why you donwt wike me" with your lip stickin out, battin your eyes.....my GOD dude....move on already.....
Ha Cat you were writin while I was.......yeah what she said...unless you want to do some more of the why you pickin on wittle ol me bullshit :P I aint quite as diplomatic as Cat is......
What I see is several adults stating their viewpoint.
It makes some mad, and it makes some glad.
Ross understands what he sees and is irate.
No one see it the same way and dumps on him.
However, for the first time I see adults talking in a very healthy conversation, albeit snarky at times.
So, let me say this:
Everyone who posts is wrong, and Everyone who responds is right.
Now, did I just cancel myself out???? ???
ready and trying out the new math
LOLOLOLOLOL...Oh, Ready...You are truly good! ;D You just keep up the new math and I figure, somewhere along the line, it will all work out...At least, I hope so!! You're a hoot!! ;D
I belong to an adult card group and the conversation (use that tem) lightly is nothing like this.
Consider Teresa a great monitor that alows free speach to a point.
Tempers will flare and not everyone are able to express their point....
I HUMBLy correct myself.....Math, Cat?
Nah, no correction necessary... ;D...I love reading all of you, even the curmudgeons...Whether or not consensus is achieved is not material here. All that matters is that everyone is given the same opportunity to voice their thoughts. And, yes...We are indeed fortunate that Teresa and Kjell are running this Forum. Too often in this life, people exit it, feeling like they were never heard. At least, here on this Forum, no one is going to die of lack of attention! lol ;D
or Entertainment.
And for me I am going to take a shower to cool down....
Play nice Mr. & Mrs.'
ready to....(insert joke)