http://video.foxnews.com/v/1070051048001/public-schools-rocked-by-cheating-scandal/
And we wonder why there are no ethics or honesty in our graduates anymore.
Shame on them, but it has nothing to do with the rest of us. Why generalize? That's not fair to the many honest kids.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 22, 2011, 09:21:08 AM
Shame on them, but it has nothing to do with the rest of us. Why generalize? That's not fair to the many honest kids.
Diane,its the ENTIRE ATLANTA PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. You cannot sya its one or two bad teachers. ITS ALL OF THEM INCLUDING THE ADMINISTRATION!
Quite frankly it doesn't surprise me that Atlanta is in this!
Simply put the system is failed. IT is coming apart now. You know when something out here dies, it lays there and rots and before long a leg falls off, the head falls off, the body just falls apart. This is waht is happening to the Government schools. One city (leg) here, one city (head) there. til it all just falls apart
And to think the whole school system is unethical and dishonest? Sheesh!
178 teachers altered standardized tests to make themselves look good. 178 teachers isn't just a few bad teachers! ITS a entire school system!
Quote from: srkruzich on July 22, 2011, 09:51:59 AM
178 teachers altered standardized tests to make themselves look good. 178 teachers isn't just a few bad teachers! ITS a entire school system!
Those tests are a waste of time anyway. They are used to compare students, schools, and districts progress from year to year. Problem is, they all use different tests! It's like comparing apples and oranges! And there should be no Federal Dept. of Ed! Give the schools back to their respective states. And if a teacher is continually ineffective, they should be fired.
Lisa, yes, my husband is a teacher...
Quote from: farmgal67357 on July 22, 2011, 10:07:50 AM
Those tests are a waste of time anyway. They are used to compare students, schools, and districts progress from year to year. Problem is, they all use different tests! It's like comparing apples and oranges! And there should be no Federal Dept. of Ed! Give the schools back to their respective states. And if a teacher is continually ineffective, they should be fired.
Lisa, yes, my husband is a teacher...
I agree totally, but the issue isn't the test. The issue is the ethics and honesty of 178 teachers and untold number administrative staff. THIS Is not some anomaly. It is a coordinated effort with some powerful backing that allowed them to get away with this for some time. OHHh just found out, the 178 were offered a choice. Resign or get fired. Only 7 have resigned. The rest are hoping for Union protection or unemployment. Fire their ass, deny them any shape or form of unemployment and bar them from ever teaching again!
Let them starve.
Steve, just call it what it is...Atlanta, not everywhere, apparently has a rotten system, but don't by extension tar us all with that same brush! By all means roll 'em out ,fix it, fire them, whatever, but leave it at that.
Lisa, I agree with everything you said. States should be able to have more control, but it puts some states in the odd situation of having to test every child who transfers in from another state and then try to figure out where they fit in. A national base line would be nice, but I sure don't know how to implement it. We have kids who transfer to schools here who are 'way behind. Then what do you do? Make the kids repeat and have the parents angry? tutoring? Sat. school?
Yes, a teacher who cheats should have their license pulled, unless it can be shown that there was black mailing or coercion from some source going on. So pull the job in that case, but leave the license. The punishment can't be rougher than with any other job but shouldn't be less either.
The "odd situation" is that state and federal governments are involved in education.
The locals should have full control over local education.
The socilaists know how to construct a "national baseline" and you can bet they have their eye on that too.
Another thing, if you want a kid to be a communist, then send him to a government school.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 22, 2011, 11:34:39 AM
Steve, just call it what it is...Atlanta, not everywhere, apparently has a rotten system, but don't by extension tar us all with that same brush! By all means roll 'em out ,fix it, fire them, whatever, but leave it at that.
IF its in Atlanta, its in DC, its in Baltimore its in Boston. Its in every city in the US. Might not be on the scale this is or it might be who knows. The reason they get away with it is they don't have accountability in the system. IT was by luck that this was discovered.
Oh and on the part of coercion, not an excuse. Pull the license. They made a choice to violate the law, ethics and honor. THey had the choice to take a stand and keep their dignity and honor and sue them for firing them or they had the choice they took to just do as they were told and support the corruption.
I've told employers before i would not do as they asked and that i WOULD go to the CEO of the company if they fired me for it, as well file a lawsuit against them.
Again there is no excuses.
Please tell me if I am wrong, but I think most of the Kansas State Assessments are computerized? That would solve teachers trying to cheat the students. That is just wrong on so many levels. As I have stated before, going back to get my masters in Special Education, and I am not for standarized test at all. I just had to take one two weeks ago and have another to take this weekend, the PLT (Principles of Teaching and Learning). Not a good test taker on those test, especially since they cost so much to take, and if you don't pass you pay again. It just plain stinks. I, as a teacher, just had an interview the other day and told the group, I am not a tenure person, don't believe in it and I went into teaching to teach kids, because I love it. It's not the most glorious job, but I loved teaching. I also told them that my job is to make sure that the students' learn however I can get them interested in learning.
We may all hate the state and government being involved, but I don't see that changing anytime soon. It stinks, too. But, to me, the one test says nothing about a students true ability. There are so many other types of informal assessments that give you a better base line as to where your students stand then some standardized test that compares one group of students to others. And when you compare the groups, they might be totally different types of districts. Oh, could go on and on on this!!
I agree angie, there is no reason for standardized anything. MOST OF those standardized tests, i think they used to call them a california something or another when i was a kid, most kids just mark answers. They could care less if they are right or wrong. After the 1st hour of that crap, i would just mark whatever just to get it over with.
I think that teachers have only one thing in mind if they cheat on the test like the ones did in Georgia, and that is saving their job. I would be more worried about the students actually learning something. I do think the only thing that they are really good for are a base line and that is it. As a teacher you have to look at so much else other than that test to know if your students are learning. That's my opinion.
Absolutely, Angie. Steve, they were called California tests, you do remember correctly. But I disagree with your statement that most kids just mark answers. Why do you think that? I remember when I took them they were given in the cafeteria and the school principal stressed how important the tests were before the tests were passed out. She also told us it helped to compare our school to other schools. We were admonished at the beginning of the year that they would be coming up and to pay attention and do well so we would be ready to do well on the standardized tests. It worked for me. But those scores were just a small part of our personal scores and grades. Our everyday classroom work, home work, quizzes and tests counted for most of our grade. The standardized tests were not graded by the teachers, some test committee did it.
When I taught in Delaware, we gave those tests in our classrooms and we graded them from a chart and scoring table which was included in the sealed test box that was handed to us just before the test started. We even had to set up stanines and percentiles, graph it on a bell curve etc. to turn in. Ah yes, the days of the standard deviation! That was all before computers of course, and we had to check all those tests on our own time, at home. It took many hours.
Here they teach the test during the two weeks before the kids take the test.
To many times I have had the teachers tell me. "Oh, we are not doing spelling this week because we are studying for the state test next week.
Go, figure.
Here is information any nasty person can back stab me with and it is down right truthful.
I quit in the third grade and no one cared. I tried cheating and that didn't work for me so I quit that.
I failed all the way through to getting my diploma. They just gave me passing grades to push me through.
I never should have got that diploma, but I deserved it anyway for having to tolerate the system.
So all of you out there are much smarter than I am.
I joined the military wtith maybe a 5th grade reading level.
But this is where my education started, thank you.
After boot camp I was fortunate enough to go to Electricians school.
Where I had to go to night school.
From that point, while on electrical switchboard
Watches I learned to read real well. I read every Louis Lamour book that was available.
Then I graduated to various novels.
From there I took multiple military correspondence
Courses on electrical repair, installaion etc and leadership.
I then attended advanced electricians school where one of the
Advanced courses was boolean algebra.
I also became profecient at reading wiring diagrams and schemantics.
But, I have never quit learning to this day. Almost everyday I learn something new.
My son has some learning problems and I held him back a year for numerous reasons.
It was not a form of punishment. I spoke with or illustrious school superintendent before I held my son back.
He said, "That's not advisable because they say it leads to kids dropping out of school". It's my personal opinion that he uses the word "they" way too much. I had known too many kids that were held back and graduated high school.
Well, when I enrolled my son back in the same grade he had just completed but the school went ahead and moved him up a grade anyway. They do not have that right, legally or otherwise. I am the parent and know my son far better than they do.
When I spoke with the special education teacher during an IEP about working with him on his writing and reading I was asked why waste time on his writing. I was told they had more important things to do. I asked what and got no answer at all.
I was quoted an editorial in the New York Times that came out that morning and I had also read the article. The article was a college professor stating the kids didn't need to know how to write they would all have keyboards (computers). I responded to the quote that the professor actually did say that and that he was being Facetious. He was upset that his 18 year old daughters signature on her college application looked like something a grade schooler would do. He also stated that children with better hand writing perform better in school.
Well I moved my son to Elk Valley and held him back a year. Elk Valley has been much more cooperative and have a much better attitude. I also no of another child that West Elk could not or would not deal with and they sent him to Elk Valley. And I know that child is doing much better at Elk Valley. It's not the fancy school building or the fancy football field or the fancy track that teaches the children.
When they say they want what's best for the children, that's bull. Because a better track or a better footballfield or a bigger better building are not what is best for the children. A bigger and fancier computer system is not what is best for the children.
Basic's is whtat is best for the children. If they all don't learn the basics the school is a looser in my opinion. and I mean every child not jus the richest peoples children, or the smartest children.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 22, 2011, 05:24:47 PM
Absolutely, Angie. Steve, they were called California tests, you do remember correctly. But I disagree with your statement that most kids just mark answers. Why do you think that?
Because thats what we did. Kids are no fools. They know all the tests are for is government crap. Heck, most of the kids in my class, was done and over with the tests in 15 min. The reason? Why bother when it doesn't affect your grade. Those tests don't tell squat. IT must have really confused them when here my tests showed i was probably dumb as a rock, and yet i made straight A's and slept half the time i was in school.
In fact it got so damn boring in school that i quit in 11 grade, went and got my GED and went on to live life. BTW i scored 189 out 200 on the GED. So that pretty much said i knew my stuff when i quit in the 11th. My SAT's were 1128 i think. Which was high scores. Could get into about any college i wanted to. Didn't go back to school til i was 30 something. graduated 4.0 and never stopped after that.
So standardized tests won't get you the information you want. :) I don't think kids have changed a whole lot on test taking since i was a kid. So thats why i say they are doing the same thing today.
Steve, any good teacher could tell if some kids just went through the motions on those tests. At the ages those kids took those test they were in no position to know whether those tests had value or not. I suppose some parent would excuse their child's poor performance by suggesting that the whole thing was stupid. Immaturity plays a part too.
Why bother if it doesn't count? Discipline and character building that's why. Learning HOW to take tests and understand the differences between different kinds of questions is part of the learning process. I wouldn't brag about poor school attitude Steve. You should have been challenged more, but if you excused yourself by sleeping in class, why would the teacher bother? ;D Did your parents work with your teachers to challenge you? I'd have loved to have worked with you. You'd have had extra assignments and individual study projects.
In your case, you quit, no surprise there. I guess you are younger than I thought. When I went to school in the 50's and very early 60's ,you quit, that was that. No second chances. GEDs started out to help vets who enlisted for WWII before they graduated. That made sense. Now some people complain because it's considered coddling the kids. Why should they get to squander their education and goof off with no consequences, and then go to night school to finish. Why did you even bother with a GED, Steve? I know you made sure your own sons got a good education. As I have said many times, one size doesn't necessarily fit all, but most kids do fine and also enjoy the sports, music and the whole school experience, including the Prom and other events that they will always remember and cherish. When one quits that experience is lost too. Sure e-education may be the thing of the future, but even that won't fit every one, I still say for every person there is some way to get the education that is a good fit. How does griping help?
It appears to me more emphasis is placed on sports, music and proms than education.
And how many girls and guys have good memories of getting drunk and pregnant on prom night.
It's not all cupcakes and roses.
No, I did not participate in the games played in high school and that includes the prom.
I walked that stage to please my parents. I was holding down three part time jobs and when I took the time to have a good time
it was with people that meant more to me than a social bunch with hang ups and sucked up.
I was above all that falderall.
Ya'all fool yourselves.
"They laughed, because he was different"
"He laughed, because they were all the same"
I'm not sure who you were quoting but some was not mine! :P
Sorry you didn't care for school but I've found the loudest complainers didn't, for one reason or another. It wasn't the school's fault you had three jobs. You were "above all that?" Now that's just sad. After all these years you still haven't gotten past it ? The "drunk and pregnant" business is self imposed and totally stupid IMHO. How is that the school's fault that a few have no sense and aren't about to listen to their parents, ministers or anyone else.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 23, 2011, 10:27:01 AM
Steve, any good teacher could tell if some kids just went through the motions on those tests. At the ages those kids took those test they were in no position to know whether those tests had value or not. I suppose some parent would excuse their child's poor performance by suggesting that the whole thing was stupid. Immaturity plays a part too.
Why bother if it doesn't count? Discipline and character building that's why. Learning HOW to take tests and understand the differences between different kinds of questions is part of the learning process. I wouldn't brag about poor school attitude Steve. You should have been challenged more, but if you excused yourself by sleeping in class, why would the teacher bother? ;D Did your parents work with your teachers to challenge you? I'd have loved to have worked with you. You'd have had extra assignments and individual study projects.
The school didn't care as long as my grades were good. Shrug. I had excellent grades. Extra assignments to do what? Busy work? lol. That does nothing but turn kids off on school. Like i said i left and succeeded without the added drudgery of going through the motions. Most of the problem was that teachers didn't want to bother with ADHD kids. I was and am still am afflicted/blessed you call it what you will with it. I spent more time in the office over that than i did in class and whats funny is I still did better than most of the kids in class. But i doubt you could have done much with me. I wouldn't and still to this day would not do busy work. I've had employers give me busy work and i'd tell them just give me the day off if they have nothing meaningful for me to work on.
QuoteIn your case, you quit, no surprise there. I guess you are younger than I thought. When I went to school in the 50's and very early 60's ,you quit, that was that. No second chances. GEDs started out to help vets who enlisted for WWII before they graduated. That made sense.
I'm 50 years old. Lots of folks have quit because they are quite bored with the school. Why go through 2 more years of torture when you can take the GED, which says YOUR qualified and have learned the curriculum to graduate. It makes no sense to put up with the classroom when you can basically test out of it.
QuoteNow some people complain because it's considered coddling the kids. Why should they get to squander their education and goof off with no consequences, and then go to night school to finish.
Night school? What nightschool. I went and took the GED. Didn't go to any school for it. It was scheduled that week i quit, i went and took it, passed it and went into the office the next day and withdrew. SHowed them my scores my test and said i fulfilled the requirements of law. They don't and won't argue with that.
QuoteWhy did you even bother with a GED, Steve?
Because 1. the law said i had to be in school or graduate, 2. I was smart enough to know that you won't go anywhere without a piece of paper that says you are qualified and have learned the curriculum, and 3. you can't get into higher education without it.
OR you couldn't at that time. Today you can go to college believe it or not without a ged. Go figure....just pass this act test and they let you in.
QuoteI know you made sure your own sons got a good education. As I have said many times, one size doesn't necessarily fit all, but most kids do fine and also enjoy the sports, music and the whole school experience, including the Prom and other events that they will always remember and cherish. When one quits that experience is lost too. Sure e-education may be the thing of the future, but even that won't fit every one, I still say for every person there is some way to get the education that is a good fit. How does griping help?
JUST Because i quit, doesn't mean i didn't get an education! I suppose quit is the wrong term, I accelerated my graduation by testing out of the last 2 years. THat would be more accurate. Secondly I was able to teach myself. Who needs a educator when you can teach yourself. I have utilized education in that it makes it somewhat easier sometimes but quite frankly from what i have seen of college educators these days, their worthless. They don't and won't help, they usually do not have a clue as to what the real world is doing. I Find this most true in the Computer field. IF you don't go to a payplenty school, like devry, or a votech, your instructors are just a body filling a space. THey haven't a clue as to how and what is done in the real world job market.
I've engaged instructors over IT information and they really are clueless. They think that the only world in IT is the windows world and that you'll never amount to anything if you choose otherwise. Funny though how windows world jobs are the lowest paid jobs in the market. Yet you cna't convince these instructors of that.
I tell folks all the time that are going into computers. YOu wnat a education in computers, get the basics, 1 or 2 year at a community college and skip the bs degree. Go to work for CNN, or a company like them. They are doing things in their company that isn't going to be done in the marketplace for another 10 years. That is education when you get on the leading edge and are creating the world marketplace with your work.
Anyway, Like i said before, the education quality has diminished over the years. We learned more in my 10 years in school than most kids learn even into thier 2nd year of college today.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 23, 2011, 11:16:29 AM
I'm not sure who you were quoting but some was not mine! :P
Sorry you didn't care for school but I've found the loudest complainers didn't, for one reason or another. It wasn't the school's fault you had three jobs. You were "above all that?" Now that's just sad. After all these years you still haven't gotten past it ? The "drunk and pregnant" business is self imposed and totally stupid IMHO. How is that the school's fault that a few have no sense and aren't about to listen to their parents, ministers or anyone else.
I copied and pasted right from your post word for word. Not that it matters.
Those are facts of life.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 23, 2011, 11:16:29 AM
Sorry you didn't care for school but I've found the loudest complainers didn't, for one reason or another.
That business of the loudest complainers is an old axiom for trying to gloss over the truth.
In traditional logic, an axiom or postulate is a proposition that is not proved or demonstrated but considered to be either self-evident, or subject to necessary decision. Just BS.
I didn't have to get over it, I got past it. I even made a better income through life then most of the kids with straight A's.
Even some of those became drug addicts and alcoholics. Go figure.
Once again, Ross joins a thread to moan the blues and call attention to himself with no real thoughts as to the topic.
Mr. Ross go back and read reply 19.You scrambled the middle. I didn't say anything about your graduation or stages or anything of the sort. :o
Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:18:26 PM
Once again, Ross joins a thread to moan the blues and call attention to himself with no real thoughts as to the topic.
You sir really seem to be envious of me, otherwise the put downs would mot be necessary.
You seem to just look for my posts, thanks for the compliment of following me.
I hope you sir someday out grow the need to bully.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 23, 2011, 01:22:33 PM
Mr. Ross go back and read reply 19.You scrambled the middle. I didn't say anything about your graduation or stages or anything of the sort. :o
Did this get scrambled too? I simply quoted what was there at the time. Perhaps you modified it after I quoted it. Just as I modified my post to Jefe just now. I add the line, "You seem to just look for my posts, thanks for the compliment of following me."
So pardon me for quoting something you may not have meant to say.
But Ross, your put downs are allowed? How about it? We're always wrong and you are always right? Please explain how that works? Other people are stupid and should be called as such because of a different point of view, but you are some how different? I'm disappointed and going away. When you all come up with the perfect solution for educating the next generation's kids beside school, please let me know what it is. I'm obviously too old and stupid to know, even though I had parents asking for me for their children. Oh, well.Those were MY "facts of life." I surely shouldn't ever feel good about myself. Sheesh! :P
You are full of crap about my post, I didn't go back and change anything! Why would I say anything about "my diploma" and "stage." Now I am really pissed. You somehow scrambled it, now take responsibility for it. >:(
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 23, 2011, 01:56:19 PM
But Ross, your put downs are allowed? How about it? We're always wrong and you are always right? Please explain how that works? Other people are stupid and should be called as such because of a different point of view, but you are some how different? I'm disappointed and going away. When you all come up with the perfect solution for educating the next generation's kids beside school, please let me know what it is. I'm obviously too old and stupid to know, even though I had parents asking for me for their children. Oh, well.Those were MY "facts of life." I surely shouldn't ever feel good about myself. Sheesh! :P
You are full of crap about my post, I didn't go back and change anything! Why would I say anything about "my diploma" and "stage." Now I am really pissed. You somehow scrambled it, now take responsibility for it. >:(
My apology's it did get scrambled some how and terribly. I shall go back and remove the quote.
I'm human and can screw up, I admit it. So sorry.
Also Diane I was not referring to you in anything I have said.
Apology accepted.
Quote from: Ross on July 23, 2011, 03:17:56 PM
I'm human and can screw up, I admit it. So sorry.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 23, 2011, 05:15:58 PM
Apology accepted.
Rectitude. Back to back. Refreshing.
Ross, as I am studying special education, you son has a right to an academic education even if on an IEP. That is sad that he wasn't offered it. As for writing, I believe that all students should be able to use a pencil and write, not just type. Any child with a disability be it small or a severe handicap, is entiltled to learn. Teachers need to look past the disabilities and see the student, not that he/she has problems with language or whatever. I believe that it is great that you are involved in your sons education. That is really important, today.
I hate that teachers have to teach to the test, but that is our wonderful governments fault. I think alot of the teachers align their curriculum to the standards, and that really helps. They are getting the education plus they are getting taught what the government or state says they should.
I think, whether Ross agrees with me or not, West Elk and Longton both have wonderful teachers. My girls are all doing great in school. We are very fortunate to have teachers that care!!
My son is doing fine at Elk Valley and had a terrific teacher last year.
Many of you may know him Mr. Dowell. At first I had my reservations
but he proved himself many many times in one year. He has my full support.
He cared about each and everyone of his students. And Elk Valley probably has
the best music teacher in S.E. Kansas. I sat in, in his class several times.
The problems I had with the West Elk were attitude of the staff including the
School Superintendent. I had no such problems at Elk Valley. And when I spoke with the
person in special education she responded with quick action. Outstanding job on her part.