Good read by Gary North.
There are taxpayers who have reverse views of what constitutes of truth and falsehood. Inevitably, tax money is extracted from one group of voters to promote the causes and beliefs of another group. The big winners are the educational bureaucrats, who promote their views at taxpayer expense.
Americans have long understood this with respect to the tax-funding of churches. They have not understood this with respect to tax-funding of schools. Back in 1963, two Protestant scholars, one liberal (Sidney E. Mead) and one conservative (R. J. Rushdoony), identified the public school system as America's only established church. They were correct.
http://www.garynorth.com/public/8202.cfm
I'd agree, its the church of humanism.
Thanks Red for the article by Mr North '
Government schools are getting worse (all right local teachers I am speaking nationally). The more money we throw down the educational rat hole, the more they demand, and still get worse results. The solution is more of a, hire qualified teachers for the specific course. Don't have the gym teacher teach gym one year and then english the next If a teacher has a poor graduation rate replace him/her.There should be no such thing as tenure or exclusion from firing because of a union contract .
Vouchers for mid and low income students only leaves the higher income students with a sorry education, and they are most likely to go to college.
If you don't do quality work at my business. You are gone, period.
Quote from: Humpy on June 30, 2011, 08:11:19 AM
Thanks Red for the article by Mr North '
Government schools are getting worse (all right local teachers I am speaking nationally). The more money we throw down the educational rat hole, the more they demand, and still get worse results. The solution is more of a, hire qualified teachers for the specific course. Don't have the gym teacher teach gym one year and then english the next If a teacher has a poor graduation rate replace him/her.There should be no such thing as tenure or exclusion from firing because of a union contract .
Vouchers for mid and low income students only leaves the higher income students with a sorry education, and they are most likely to go to college.
If you don't do quality work at my business. You are gone, period.
Simple solution, vouchers or the parents get to choose what school their child goes to. If my child is in a piss poor school, i ought to be able to fire the school. Put my child in the best one possible. My child should not be doomed to be educated in a low quality eductation.
I like rhode islands solution. Either get your shit together or we'll fire you.
Last of all, no one should be entitled to a free education. They should be required to earn it. IF you can't behave, wanna be the clown or the doper, then bye bye you forfeit your education.
I try to work in the perimeters of reality concerning government. What we think is right, is not always going to stand a ghost of a chance in the real world of bought and paid for elected officials.
Vouchers are going to be paid for by you and I. Then there is our community where the push to consolidate all of the schools into Howard, will leave no choice at all, strictly another power grab for the city of Howard, and that is a real shame.
Quote from: Humpy on June 30, 2011, 09:59:07 AM
I try to work in the perimeters of reality concerning government. What we think is right, is not always going to stand a ghost of a chance in the real world of bought and paid for elected officials.
Vouchers are going to be paid for by you and I. Then there is our community where the push to consolidate all of the schools into Howard, will leave no choice at all, strictly another power grab for the city of Howard, and that is a real shame.
actually vouchers are allocating funds we pay anyway to the Government Indoctrination Centers (Notice i say Government cause there is no Public in the schools these days). Lots of parents pay double for Education for their children when the rest do not.
BTW there is a way to fix most Government schools so that the children will learn. Starts with discipline. Quite frankly IF i were in charge, first thing i would do is require uniforms. Heck even separating boys from girls will go a long way to enabling them to learn. No distraction, third, No cellphones, beepers, or communication device of any kind. Fourth i would require all sports to be extra curricular activity done on their own time. IF they don't get their grades up, they don't participate. Same with band, clubs, anything that isn't core classes. When you get your grades above mediocrity, then your qualified to handle more responsibility and maybe participate in extra (Note the word EXTRA) it means not required activities. Count it as a reward for good work.
More importantly, i would make dang sure that the majority of the money allocated from taxpayer is funneled into education and the materials for education. basketball, baseball, football, band, etc all take a back seat and IMO should be funded by the parents of the kids that want to play. There would be none of this "chartered bus's" etc etc etc.... I got my fill of this crap with the way the football is done in most schools. They treat the players like their commercial athletes.
I went to private school we had sports, but our parents paid for it. One thing i do know is this. When my parents paid for my private school, I learned, cause if i didn't, i got my ass wore out. When education actually costs someone, they treat it as a privilege, not a right, and that is the bottom line. it should not be a right. It should be a privilege
Quote from Humpy:
Then there is our community where the push to consolidate all of the schools into Howard, will leave no choice at all, strictly another power grab for the city of Howard, and that is a real shame.
Humpy,
Now before I get lynched by the Howard folks, at this point I have nothing against Howard/West Elk-----BUT-----------I think the kids will have a choice. I hear many, many parents talking of when / if we consolidate with Howard and they are saying their kids will be going to Independence, Fredonia or Sedan. Some because it is just as close or closer for them and some for their own personal reasons
Education does cost something. I pay my school tax bill every September. It's separate from our county tax so we can see exactly what it is. If people don't pay attention to those costs it's their problem. They can complain to the school board or not pass referendums when they come along, but people have to pay attention. I don't mean they should nit pick every detail of the budget but yes, there should be priorities set. Like grammar and spelling and knowing the difference between they're, there and their! Poke, poke! (Private school?) ;D
Parents should should set good examples for their kids by letting them see their parents read, go to the library, watch educationally appropriate things on TV with their kids.,not just the sports, and still leave time for the kids to just be kids. It's a tough balancing act.
Some parents want their kids to have cell phones, music majors would have a hard time without music.but they tend to be the better students anyway. Football? Is not the kids' faults if some parents put too much importance in it. My high school didn't even play football at all. We had soccer.
Quote from Diane:
their kids.,not ------without music.but
Period then a comma ? Period then a small "b" ? POKE---POKE !!!!!
Now before you jump in my sh#t for using slang words and spelling errors it aint me that's the "teacher " always correcting her "students".
Excuse me? I was responding to Steve and he knows I tease sometimes. What is YOUR problem? I've always told you I am a lousy typist and you can pick all you want and be right. I never mind the criticism of my typing because its true! ;D
You sure are touchy with me, but you freely criticize many others about many things. So what! Lighten up. It's not my fault your teachers couldn't get through to some of you 'way back when. I didn't teach you or I promise you, you wouldn't be weak in any of that.You are obviously an intelligent person and perhaps should have had your butt kicked until you got it. It's never to late to learn.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on June 30, 2011, 11:21:25 AM
Education does cost something. I pay my school tax bill every September. It's separate from our county tax so we can see exactly what it is. If people don't pay attention to those costs it's their problem. They can complain to the school board or not pass referendums when they come along, but people have to pay attention. I don't mean they should nit pick every detail of the budget but yes, there should be priorities set. Like grammar and spelling and knowing the difference between they're, there and their! Poke, poke! (Private school?) ;D
Parents should should set good examples for their kids by letting them see their parents read, go to the library, watch educationally appropriate things on TV with their kids.,not just the sports, and still leave time for the kids to just be kids. It's a tough balancing act.
Some parents want their kids to have cell phones, music majors would have a hard time without music.but they tend to be the better students anyway. Football? Is not the kids' faults if some parents put to much importance in it. My high school didn't even play football at all. We had soccer.
I got an excuse. I suffer from CRS.
CRS? ;) I would have said GOMS... ;D (Grouchy Old Man Syndrome...lol)
Look, Diane, You of all people ought to know that these kids today are coddled. They're (see i know how to use it), not made to learn. I did it with my kids. I told them your there, (See i used it right again) NOT TO SOCIALIZE but to sit your ass down in that desk and apply the God given brains you have and learn what you need to learn so that you can go out and conquer the world with your wit, charm and intelligence. And i told them i would not accept anything but their best. I did not allow c's, or low b's. I required excellence in their work. Told them from the start they were smart, they had the intelligence to go forth and learn, and there was no excuse for mediocrity.
Like i said before. IF I were in charge of a school, i would require the same thing from every student. Literally i would set the bar high enough so the smart kids struggled to meet it. I would not set different bars for different kids. One bar fits all. You see, if the kids don't know its too high for them, then they don't know they might not achieve meeting that bar. AND SO what if they don't meet the bar. You would have a real gauge on their learning capabilities as well as what they have learned.
This crap of teaching to the test is not education. So why are the teachers doing it? I wouldn't, i would teach. Period. They would learn. With 6 kids you get a range of abilities in learning. Some not so great others are easy for them. One of the things i told the ones that had a hard time learning was that see your brother who you think is so smart is having a tough time too. But your keeping up with him.
What did i get out of my method? Uhmmm 1 graduated at 16 technically cause they were taking college courses at 16, three more got invited to attend Duke, and the other two one is going to Mercedes Benz school to train on Mercedes as a mechanic, the other one is in theater. BTW, the ones with the lower IQ's, and hardest time learning, were the ones invited to duke.
The worst thing the system has ever done to children is to dumb down the education. Years ago you could take a GED and it was very difficult to get. IF you got a near perfect to perfect score you were well educated. These days, The GED is a freaking joke! IF you were to give that test to a 1980 8th grader, they would ace the test. And SAT's?? Their even worse! I retook my SATs in 2007. I remember my score from 1980 and it was 935. I got a 1370 on mine the second go around out of 1600 max. I shouldn't have gotten that high if they weren't dumbed down.
NOW the max score is 2400. They dumbed it down even further in the last 3 years. This is why we can't get quality people in the workforce. They've been handed their Diplomas and all on a silver platter. No one has to work for a good score anymore.
I was laughing my butt off when i was in college for Horticulture. Started with a class of 40, by the end of the semester, 5 of us were left. AND all of us were over 40. Among the EXCUSES i heard was, "I quit cause the teacher didn't grade on a curve" "I quit because the teacher isn't fair" "i quit cause he gave too much homework" "I quit cause it is too difficult" Good lord, if i quit every time i ran into difficulty, i would have just gave up and killed myself years ago.
There IS NO CHALLENGE anymore in the school system. The kids have it far too easy. Heck i don't think they even give grades anymore in many of the schools. They might hurt the kids self esteem. Poppycock. Their self esteem is the last thing that needs to be worried about. Let them build their own self esteem by taking a impossible task and mastering it! Now thats self esteem building!
But then again i keep forgetting, the government doesn't want leaders coming out of school systems they want everyone the same to be good socialist workforce to fill the low wage jobs out there.
Oh and one more thing, Why does a parents wanting their kid to have cellphones have to do with anything. Cellphones are a detraction. Ban them. What the hell ever happened to the schools rules and standards. Used to be that we had dress codes and codes of ethics as well as standard rules and regs to attend. There was no negotiation on that either.
Quote from: Catwoman on June 30, 2011, 01:25:53 PM
CRS? ;) I would have said GOMS... ;D (Grouchy Old Man Syndrome...lol)
I've got that too. Goes hand in hand.....
Sorry Steve, mine is getting worse as I get older too. But my spelling is still pretty good and my "special" words like the "there, their and they're" are stuck in my brain because I pounded them into the kids for so many years.
Yes, it does bother me when otherwise intelligent, educated people put apostrophes willy nilly into simple plurals that aren't possessives or contractions.They want to be considered experts, and heartily agreed with, but can't punctuate the easy stuff.
I'm still waiting for someone to catch the deliberate spelling error in my retort to Jar. I guess that just proves my point! ;D Anybody catch it?
Steve the cell phone business is pertinent unfortunately. I agree with you for obvious reasons, but some parents have gone to the school demanding that their child be allowed their cell phone in case of a family emergency and the administration caved in. It's a royal pain! Most of our public schools do have dress codes and many, including the Charter Schools have uniforms. Some have a very nice variety but it's a uniform none the less. Actually, my dear it was wrong again the second time...it's you're. As a teacher, I'm not good at ''make the child learn" power conflicts.That has to come from home.My way was to make the kids know what was expected, present it, often in more than one way and let them know they would be evaluated.They knew that their grade represented their skill in learning whatever was being taught. Many kids today don't seem to understand the correlation between their success in learning and their grade. They think it has something to do with being "liked" by the teacher. Of course subjective grades, like on essays, can be hard for the parents to understand sometimes.
Yes, I know there are poor teachers but there are many more good ones. I was one of them. How do I know? I still have parents come up to me after many years and tell me how good I was for their child. That means more to me than money in the bank.
Quote from Diane:
Excuse me? I was responding to Steve and he knows I tease sometimes. What is YOUR problem? I've always told you I am a lousy typist and you can pick all you want and be right. I never mind the criticism of my typing because its true!
You sure are touchy with me, but you freely criticize many others about many things. So what! Lighten up. It's not my fault your teachers couldn't get through to some of you 'way back when. I didn't teach you or I promise you, you wouldn't be weak in any of that.You are obviously an intelligent person and perhaps should have had your butt kicked until you got it. It's never to late to learn
WOW. You leave me speechless---almost. Why is it you can point out a mistake but it's OK because you say "poke--poke ". I do the same thing and you rip me a new one. You need to lighten up.
I guess if you can type, even if it is lousy, (your description---not mine ) you are one up on me because like I said before---I'm a one finger--one letter at a time, kinda guy but I guess it's never too late to learn, huh ?
Also, teachers are subjected to the "I pay your salary" business. The parents make demands because they pay the bills and some administrators will cave every time. As far as every child having the same bar, I disagree. Some kids do have learning disabilities that keep them from learning as easily.They will get it but not at the same speed as others. It's not easy to get to to keep the top kids interested and challenged at their instructional level and still give time to the kids who just need more time.
Again, you are relating and connecting your own experiences to everybody. Steve, it's just not that way. I'm not a person to teach by intimidation either, it's just not me. I cannot threaten a child to make him learn something. It's just how I'm wired. I was always more successful in trying to tie things to practical application. I'm glad I'm not in the classroom on a regular basis now...texting drives me nutz! Today's kids are so much more forward too." "I shouldn't have to learn that." "What good is it? "
It's hard to explain sometimes that "learning how to learn" is a process that takes years. From top to bottom and left to right reading, to writing in a way that communicates, to all the math combinations, to high school and beyond, it all has to start somewhere and some of it will be boring.Too bad, learn it anyway! ;D
JAR, I'm sorry I was grumpy with you, but I was expecting a funny retort from Steve, the poster, not a shot from you. I can safely kid around with some, unfortunately you are not one of them. I get attacked by some for my politics, my religion, my home state, my goofy sense of humor and I get tired of being called wrong so much. When do I get my turn to even the score? :'(
You don't. Letting you even the score would be tacitly admitting that you might, in fact, have a point. That's the tricky thing about a herd mentality...There might actually be a few out there who do agree with you...But because the herd has turned and pointed their butts at you, the ones who do agree won't have it in them to go against the conventional wisdom of the herd. In a school situation, we call that bullying and we have programs to teach the kids how NOT to do that to each other. It's a pity that we don't have the same programs for adults.
Thanks Cat.I appreciate it.
Quote from catwoman:
There might actually be a few out there who do agree with you...But because the herd has turned and pointed their butts at you, the ones who do agree won't have it in them to go against the conventional wisdom of the herd. In a school situation, we call that bullying and we have programs to teach the kids how NOT to do that to each other. It's a pity that we don't have the same programs for adults.
Now there's an assessment I agree 100% with. I think it applies to Ross and Patriot on their quest for answers to the Elk Konnected questions they ask. I think there are people that agree with them but then you got that herd / cow butt thing. Sad aint it ?
Times have sure changed. We were taught to knock bullies on their arse. We were also taught that when dealing with what we called "snooty people" to just ignore them---not that I'm making reference to anyone being a bully or a snooty tutty.
Ah, the sweet joy of people making my points for me... ;D...See, Diane? No need to worry about having your turn...There's always another turn offered to you!! lol ;D
I caught it, Diane. It was the fourth word from the end of the last sentence. I am trying to train myself to ignore errors because it takes too much time. Some, though, make it hard to understand what the writer is trying to say.
That is one of the problems with posting on a forum like this one...It is very easy to misinterpret what the person writing is actually saying. So much is gleaned from listening to the person as they speak and all of that is lost when it's put down in writing.
So--- is oral history more accurate than recorded history? Or does it change from mouth to mouth? Elizabeth Brownings poetry is better spoken than read? I don't think so.
That's not what I was saying, Six...All I was saying is that it's very easy to misinterpret what is written, especially when (as has been witnessed on another thread) there is high emotion involved. It is in those situations when it is easier to interpret where a person is coming from when you can hear the person's voice. In Browning's case, there is no way to hear her voice except through what she has written. This Forum is the same way...There are so many people in so many different places, that are only acquainted through this Forum, that you have to try to rely on what they write in order to know them...And, coming full circle, it is hard, sometimes, when you read what you think they've written and then they come back and assure you that what you took from it is not what they meant. As far as History is concerned...LOL...It is always interesting to read the various perspectives that surround it. Line up 10 people, you have 10 different versions of what happened. Watching the History channel proves that...They have their perspective on it...Go to a museum on the subject, you have their take on it...Listen to NPR, you get another perspective. All of it amounts to small parts of the whole truth.
Did you ever hear Douglas McArthur speak? His words "I shall return" speak volumes in the annuls of WWII, yet the man had an incredibly squeaky and almost laughable voice. Listening to him is hardly the same thing as the idea projected in "I shall return". Of course high emotion can color the written word. It is always a good idea to step away from the idiom, be it spoken or written to reevaluate, then decide what is really being said. Some are more skilled than others, some are used to the give and take of debate, and others are simply junk yard dogs. We are all different people, that is what makes us a unique and wonderful society. We can learn from one another, and the written word is what lets us live beyond our prescribed time on this earth.
Quote from: jarhead on June 30, 2011, 05:31:57 PM
Quote from catwoman:
There might actually be a few out there who do agree with you...But because the herd has turned and pointed their butts at you, the ones who do agree won't have it in them to go against the conventional wisdom of the herd. In a school situation, we call that bullying and we have programs to teach the kids how NOT to do that to each other. It's a pity that we don't have the same programs for adults.
Now there's an assessment I agree 100% with. I think it applies to Ross and Patriot on their quest for answers to the Elk Konnected questions they ask. I think there are people that agree with them but then you got that herd / cow butt thing. Sad aint it ?
Times have sure changed. We were taught to knock bullies on their arse. We were also taught that when dealing with what we called "snooty people" to just ignore them---not that I'm making reference to anyone being a bully or a snooty tutty.
LOL i was one of the ones who used to go take the lunch money back that the bullies stole. Guess i would be the bullies bully.
:o ;D It's good to know that there was that variety out there, Steve...But with you, it would figure...You have always sounded like the solid, upstanding type. I wish that some of my students had a kid like you standing by them...Doing something like that takes an awful lot of guts...Or a healthy disregard for your physical wellbeing...Take your pick! lol
Quote from: Catwoman on June 30, 2011, 08:23:05 PM
:o ;D It's good to know that there was that variety out there, Steve...But with you, it would figure...You have always sounded like the solid, upstanding type. I wish that some of my students had a kid like you standing by them...Doing something like that takes an awful lot of guts...Or a healthy disregard for your physical wellbeing...Take your pick! lol
ROTFL well I was kinda hard headed and being raised by a awesome father, and 2 awesome grandfathers as well as 2 awesome great grandfathers and 1 gg grandfather i learned a lot about Standing up for what was right.
I had the best role models and examples of honor integrity and ethical behavior any one child could have. With a lot of Ole fashioned Kentucky hillbilly stubborness, and a bit of city boy to tame me down. My dad was not a farm boy....
Quote from: sixdogsmom on June 30, 2011, 07:05:57 PM
So--- is oral history more accurate than recorded history? Or does it change from mouth to mouth? Elizabeth Brownings poetry is better spoken than read? I don't think so.
Great history question! My hobby is Viking Age/Irish re-enactment. Up until Snorri Sturluson wrote down the Saga's in the 1200's, Viking history was oral. And it did change from Skald to Skald (storytellers/poets) because if you told a better story than the next guy, you were rewarded for it! You stay around the fire in the evenings, listening to stories in the cold, cold winter. If a Skald was around, and you could compensate them in some way-maybe just a meal-you were lucky! And if you were a Skald and was invited into a Jarl's house, or anyone who was well off, you did your darnedest to make them happy! Even better if you could work a family member or two into the story......or you dis their enemies! :)
Lisa
Very interesting.Thanks
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 01, 2011, 05:21:21 PM
Very interesting.Thanks
Thank you. I learned some of that at school..... ;D
Lisa
Thomas Sowell is spot on again! (as usual)... we are graduating a bunch of entitlement minded, sub literate, mambi-pambis. Plus PC is killing our students today. Why? Progressive clowns with pointy hats... (where is Patton when we need him?) ... But..aha... Sowell just might have the answer.
Damn right he's spot on!
There's only one problem with being a 'tough teacher' who refuses to call her students her "friends"...You don't generally endear yourself to the rest of the teachers (speaking from experience here, unfortunately). There are those of us, though, who stand up to the pressure and continue to expect only the very best of our students, in spite of the students' protestations. It is possible to be tough...AND FAIR...And able to inspire your students to reach beyond what they thought was possible!
YUP! I totally agree, but I was never crossways with other teachers because of it. We were all very much alike in that regard. BUT...I did see a little of that in the High School teachers.
Quote from: Catwoman on July 02, 2011, 10:30:49 AM
There's only one problem with being a 'tough teacher' who refuses to call her students her "friends"...You don't generally endear yourself to the rest of the teachers (speaking from experience here, unfortunately). There are those of us, though, who stand up to the pressure and continue to expect only the very best of our students, in spite of the students' protestations. It is possible to be tough...AND FAIR...And able to inspire your students to reach beyond what they thought was possible!
You know, I don't see the problem. SO what if they don't like it. Your not there to impress them. Your there to teach and if you teach and are tough, then By God thats what is needed. LIFE isn't going to coddle them when they get out there in the workforce. I Used to have to fire some real losers in the workforce that HR hired. They were whiners and complainers too. kept saying thats not fair, or its not right, or they didn't have to do this, and the worst thing that PISSED Me off faster than anything else was the statement THats not my Job! I would fire them in a new york second for that.
If you work for me, and i ask you to do something, then That is your job! Period. I was also good and fair. The bottom line was you did your job, and if your making me look good to my boss, your life was easy street! Thats the real world.
Self esteem? You get that when you earn it. Do a good job, do what is asked and expected of you, do it right the first time and guess what you get a atta boy and maybe even a raise. Thats what builds self esteem.
I agree, Steve. In my classroom, I not only teach the subject matter...I also teach life. As a result...I have a large number of students who then feel like they need to bring their problems to my doorstep to discuss them. It is at that point that I re-direct them to the appropriate person, on staff, who can help them (not having a counseling degree, it's a legal liability if I attempt to do any counseling beyond just the common sense stuff). My students all end up teaching me as much as I teach them, if the truth were to be told.