"...Something did change with the publication of The General Theory. Keynes gave the governments of the world a seemingly scientific rationale for doing what governments wanted to do anyway."
"'Taxes are the price we pay for civilization,' according to Oliver Wendell Holmes. This claim has cost us dearly...If we as a nation continue to believe that paying for civilization through taxation is a wise purchase and the only way to achieve civilization, we are doomed."
-Gary Gibson
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig12/gibson-g2.1.1.html
Would you rather have everything fee based? Not everything is tax based! There are also tolls, license fees and fines, lotteries, and ticket sales that make money for the Gov't. in many states.
I suppose the alternative is a country so far in debt that it faces another depression.
Foreign aid being paid to China to buy their friendship (civilization) with us I suppose is a good investment.
I have never bought friendship but I suppose that's because it only works as long as the money is flowing.
But again if there is backstabbing involve that wouldn't stop either.
redcliffsw posted this one another link. It is excellent reading. It's about ethics in politics.
http://fee.org/library/not-yours-to-give-2/
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 26, 2011, 01:28:40 PM
Would you rather have everything fee based? Not everything is tax based! There are also tolls, license fees and fines, lotteries, and ticket sales that make money for the Gov't. in many states.
that would be a start. I've advocated that for years.
it is that way with fire service. when you have a fire you get billed for it.
and we don't need cops either, thats what my .357 is for.
When you speak of ethics in politics, are you speaking only of the persons in government, or do you also include ethics in corporate boardrooms? Who has greased the wheels of politicians for the past . . . forever? Who has shipped all the manufacturing jobs to Mexico or China. And before you say a word about it being the result of high labor costs or high regulation, why do the Japanese and Koreans build cars here in the states.
Laizze-faire capitalists have contributed greatly to the collapse of the American manufacturing base, yet they have somehow managed to throw their share of the blame onto labor and government. And now they want to pay even less in taxes on the profits they make by selling us all the stuff they made somewhere else and paid zero tariffs on due to pushing "free-trade' treaties.
Do the majority of right-wingers really believe all of the recent tea party/libertarian activism is about reducing taxes and regulations for the betterment of 'we the people'? It is about already ultra-rich capitalists becoming even richer by reducing constraints placed upon them so they can make even more profit, and pay an even smaller percentage of taxes on those profits than they do now.
Now, feel free to throw some radically Liberal label on me, since I dare to speak up from a Moderate/Conservative position about what is really going on in the Reationary right portion of the political spectrum.
Perhaps it's time to revisit the enumerated powers contained in the Constitution.
Gee, who could possibly think the rich would use a 'return to the constitution' to line their own pockets? I guess I'll go back to planting potatoes outside my little hovel to supplement the little wheat the Lord bestows upon me for doing his work.
Quote from: flintauqua on April 26, 2011, 10:20:45 PM
Gee, who could possibly think the rich would use a 'return to the constitution' to line their own pockets? I guess I'll go back to planting potatoes outside my little hovel to supplement the little wheat the Lord bestows upon me for doing his work.
If I really believed you were doing the Lord's work, I would gladly send you some seed potatoes. But since you detest capitalism and love government so much... I guess you can get them from your local county Office of Seed Potato Distribution. Just don't open a flour & french fry stand outside your hovel... that would be a capitalistic move, no?
Quote from: Patriot on April 26, 2011, 10:38:42 PM
If I really believed you were doing the Lord's work, I would gladly send you some seed potatoes. But since you detest capitalism and love government so much... I guess you can get them from your local county Office of Seed Potato Distribution. Just don't open a flour & french fry stand outside your hovel... that would be a capitalistic move, no?
That reminds me of a few years back some bozo was using food stamps to cook food up and take it out in a cooler to worksites and selling the food as a business. They got caught and the liberals came out of the wood work cause the law was going to prosecute them. Poor unfortunate that was trying to better themselves. Nothing but fraud pure and simple.
Quote from: Patriot on April 26, 2011, 10:38:42 PM
If I really believed you were doing the Lord's work, I would gladly send you some seed potatoes. But since you detest capitalism and love government so much... I guess you can get them from your local county Office of Seed Potato Distribution. Just don't open a flour & french fry stand outside your hovel... that would be a capitalistic move, no?
In hindsite Lord (as in a sub-Duke) was an unfortunate choice of words on my part when dealing with you. You know what I meant, and so does everyone else.
As I have stated in more ways than I care to count - I fear pure unfettered Capitalism as much as I fear pure theoretical Communism. You obviously do not fear one of them.
Quote from: flintauqua on April 26, 2011, 09:39:46 PM
When you speak of ethics in politics, are you speaking only of the persons in government, or do you also include ethics in corporate boardrooms?
If there were any ethics in politics there wouldn't be corporates buying any elected official. L there were any ethics in politics, politicians would change their answere to a question every time it's asked by a different person.
Quote from: flintauqua on April 26, 2011, 11:16:00 PM
As I have stated in more ways than I care to count - I fear pure unfettered Capitalism as much as I fear pure theoretical Communism. You obviously do not fear one of them.
UNLIKE Communism, Unfettered capitalism has a control to it that lies in the hands of the people. They control it with their wallet. Unfetter greed can only go so far before it hurts those that support it and then the unfettered capitalist will be paying the boatman.
Quote from: flintauqua
As I have stated in more ways than I care to count - I fear pure unfettered Capitalism as much as I fear pure theoretical Communism. You obviously do not fear one of them.
Quote from: srkruzich on April 27, 2011, 05:49:25 AM
UNLIKE Communism, Unfettered capitalism has a control to it that lies in the hands of the people. They control it with their wallet. Unfetter greed can only go so far before it hurts those that support it and then the unfettered capitalist will be paying the boatman.
Steve, please notice that your detractor fears unfettered Capitalism and theoretical Communism. Inasmuch as fear is diametrically opposed to faith, that fear would necessarily require a 'protector' (other than Providence). For the progressive, that protector is all too often the state. You will notice the absence of any fear of statism or socialism. Also notice the improper reference to Communism vs communism. The small 'c' version is actually the pure, theoretical, looks good on paper Utopian ideology. The big 'C' version is what results in practice as the socialist state matures. Of that Utopian state, there is no fear as it represents the the idolized end result of the progressive faith.
The progressive, since before the days of Wilson and out of the Fabian tradition, places 'faith' in government rather than realizing the historically demonstrated validity of your observation. The progressive mindset opts for preemptive control by government to assuage their fear of perceived or potential wrongdoings as opposed to limited government controls designed to provide recompense for real wrongdoings. In short, they seem to want their beloved state to fix stuff that isn't broken.... just in case it might break someday. They are also in denial of the reality that the human tendency is to take their beloved 'government should control/regulate it' model and turn it into the oppressive condition we see in places like Cuba or Venezuela. Facts don't matter, feelings do.
Both good posts there, Srkruzich and Patriot.
It's very difficult for modern Americans to accept the liberty as our founding fathers established in our Constitution.
People have a fear that they won't "make it" on their own without the Federal government's help in the form of money or programs. The socialist gov't is where they place their faith and trust instead of standing for the Cionstitution of our founding fathers.
The best example of UNFETTERED Capitalism working for the good is the day Regan deregulated airline, telecommunications and oil industries. It was then that we saw the real power of Unfettered capitalism bringing down the price of goods. It inspired pure 100% grade A NON GOVERNMENT created competition and drove the marketplace upwards and everyone profited! I was working in the 70's and life sucked. HIGH taxes, regulations, shortages on supplies, housing was even hard to get. Once regan opened that door of prosperity which lasted 20+ years, here we stand at the door of uber regulation and the same shit different pile of government oppression on business in America. Obama isn't unique, he is Carter 2. IF he was unique, he would have stood up and returned us to the republic we should be now. Man wouldn't that have some forefathers rolling in their graves. A black man, a negro holding the same ideals of our forefathers!
QuoteThe progressive mindset opts for preemptive control by government to assuage their fear of perceived or potential wrongdoings as opposed to limited government controls designed to provide recompense for real wrongdoings.
Excuse me but (cough cough) bullshit. I have a very progressive mind-set and a VERY healthy DIS-trust of government. Think the LESS government the BETTER. Don't mistake a truly forward thinking person with a government sheep..they are two distinct things.
Another thing people are going to HAVE to face is same shit different day polluting freely by corporations to insure profits is NOT going to work any longer. All the money in the world isnt goin to help when ALL the water and air is polluted beyond living. Changes are NEEDED and REQUIRED.
Now...Yall have a nice day.
Hopefully things will straighten out after the depression.
Quote from: Ross on April 27, 2011, 02:25:48 PM
Hopefully things will straighten out after the depression.
well hopefully the depression will strip those in power of their ability to march on to a totalitarian regime. But i fear it won't. They have enough gold and silver bought up to weather such a event.
But i would daresay it could spark a civil war.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 27, 2011, 01:49:24 PM
Excuse me but (cough cough) bullshit. I have a very progressive mind-set and a VERY healthy DIS-trust of government. Think the LESS government the BETTER. Don't mistake a truly forward thinking person with a government sheep..they are two distinct things.
Pam,
I have a healthy respect for your skepticism of of government and big corps. But while your dictionary definition of 'progressive' as forward thinking is accurate as you use it, you seem to have missed the deceptive adoption of the title 'Progressive' by those ideologues who took it to deceive the masses and shed their former titles: Socialist and Liberal. Liberal was an interim usurpation of the language taken to try and cover socialist ideals & titles. So, politically, the socialist became liberal, and when found out, they adopted progressive. Just like pro-'choice' conveys a totally misleading & more palatable position than the real position which is pro-abortion. Convenient how language can be so abused to mislead so many. While many of the newer titles are variously interpreted, the public transition from labels of socialism through liberalism to progressivism in America is pretty clear.
I don't think you really ascribe to the notion of socialism, or the socialist adoption of the labels of Liberal or Progressive. See if you agree...
Merriam-Webster:
so·cial·ism
noun \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Definition of SOCIALISM
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done pro·gres·sive
adj \prə-ˈgre-siv\
Definition of PROGRESSIVE
5 : often capitalized : of or relating to political ProgressivesAnd from Wikipedia:
Progressivism is a political attitude favoring or advocating changes or reform through governmental action. By definition, I just don't think skepticism of government and the political position of Progressives can get along. Words are important.
Perhaps it's safer to say you're a forward thinker who makes independent judgments in matters of politics and industry.
And I suppose you don't see the same thing occurring on the right, with reactionaries prefering to be called classical conservatives, even though conservative by definition is to the left of the status quo line, and reactionary is on the right:
Conservative - A person who is satisfied with the system as it is and tends to resist change. Some conservatives, realizing that things could be improved, will accept gradual, very superficial, and progressive change. Property rights tend to be very important to conservatives.
Reactionary - A person who would like to see the existing order reversed and favors substituting earlier political institutions for the contemporary system.
I would give the annotation of these word-for-word definitions, but you would just waste some bandwidth trying to attack the source.
Uh, Steve I know you posted this way back, but where did you get the idea that if you have a fire you'll get a bill from the fire company? We do no such thing here. We do bill people's insurance for ambulance calls and they can prepay for their family once a year during our ambulance fund drive ($25.00 for an individual or $35.00 per family.) and get no further bill even if they don't have insurance or use the service many times during the year. We send a bill to people's insurance for rescue services for vehicle accidents. Some insurance companies pay and some don't. If not, we don't press it.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 27, 2011, 04:31:48 PM
Uh, Steve I know you posted this way back, but where did you get the idea that if you have a fire you'll get a bill from the fire company? We do no such thing here. We do bill people's insurance for ambulance calls and they can prepay for their family once a year during our ambulance fund drive ($25.00 for an individual or $35.00 per family.) and get no further bill even if they don't have insurance or use the service many times during the year. We send a bill to people's insurance for rescue services for vehicle accidents. Some insurance companies pay and some don't. If not, we don't press it.
because of the two fires i have had to call on they billed for the service. Insurance paid it but they do bill for it.
Steve, were these fires in Elk County, with the Elk County Rural Fire District equipment and personel responding?
Quote from: flintauqua on April 27, 2011, 04:27:49 PM
I would give the annotation of these word-for-word definitions, but you would just waste some bandwidth trying to attack the source.
While you're presenting your narrow view of conservatives and providing unannotated presentations, please cover these as well:
Liberal conservatism
Conservative liberalism
Libertarian conservatism
Fiscal conservatism
Green conservatism
Cultural and social conservatism
Religious conservatism
Thanks.
Steve, I don't mean to be picky, but for those fires, who billed your insurance company? You or the fire company? Did the fire company bill you directly? If I may be so bold, for how much?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 27, 2011, 05:13:42 PM
Steve, I don't mean to be picky, but for those fires, who billed your insurance company? You or the fire company? Did the fire company bill you directly? If I may be so bold, for how much?
2000 for one fire on land, brush and trees burning, unsure how it started and 18,000 for a structure fire. first in colorado second in tennessee
Patriot I dont limit my meaning of a word to the somewhat dubious ones used for POLITICAL propaganda.
Being a progressive thinker has nothing to do with politics in my mind and I am fully aware of the word-bending used by BOTH sides of the POLITICAL spectrum to justify their use of them.
QuotePerhaps it's safer to say you're a forward thinker who makes independent judgments in matters of politics and industry.
Uh .......perhaps thats exactly what I have been saying to you all for months. Me and several OTHER people who have been tarred with the same brush. I make independent judgments in MOST areas LOL
Diane, unless you "join" the volunteer fire department here where I am they WILL send you a bill if they have to come fight a fire on your place.
I'm just not familiar with that practice Pam. I know about the business in some areas of a response not being made to the fire at all unless you are on record as having paid an annual fee, but not a bill for services after the fact. How much is the bill?
I dont know for sure Diane...think it varies according to time and equipment needed. Fortunately (knock on wood) I have never had to find out.
Thanks Pam, I'm still looking into it. It must be similar to how we run our ambulance service here in Newark. I'm just curious. Are your firefighters volunteer or paid or combination? There are so many different ways it can be done.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 27, 2011, 09:30:12 PM
Patriot I dont limit my meaning of a word to the somewhat dubious ones used for POLITICAL propaganda.
Being a progressive thinker has nothing to do with politics in my mind and I am fully aware of the word-bending used by BOTH sides of the POLITICAL spectrum to justify their use of them.
Uh .......perhaps thats exactly what I have been saying to you all for months. Me and several OTHER people who have been tarred with the same brush. I make independent judgments in MOST areas LOL
Words matter, Pam. When 2 or more people are trying to communicate, it's critical that both or all are assigning the same meaning to the words used. It's not very effective to assume the words you choose to use carry the same contextual meaning for everyone. Clarify, clarify, clarify. I would think that in a politically oriented conversation that anyone using or seeing a term like progressive could reasonably expect it to be assigned the political meaning... and perhaps even be tarred (given the charged meanings of many political terms).
If one is in a room full of fruits and nuts who are talking about nutty stuff and the fruits start using nut terms to describe peach seeds then the nuts are likely going to misunderstand. Words & context matter greatly, especially when the audience is very diverse in their location, background, age and cultural experience. To a 25 year old in New York bar a goober is not always the same thing as a goober at a Georgia church social full of 70 year olds.
Thanks for finally expressing your meaning and use, it makes all the difference in the world.