I just posted this in response on another thread. Perhaps the concepts and views herein will touch a few more citizens in a fresh thread.
I have absolutely no problem with any private group, church, etc. sponsoring wholesome events/activities for kids (I have 2, btw). I agree with many and think that kids need good guidance and interaction in such programs. My problem is with any private group that uses such programs to befriend the public while also advancing a political agenda of the few. All that glitters isn't gold. EK is as much a political action group as it it a social action group. The pattern they have chosen to follow (via Public Square Communities) is a model that looks to government as the glue that holds communities together and sees government/government agencies as the center of community life development. Perhaps in the Communist China model, but not in the Republic that is supposed to be America.
When a select few elitists both influence the government and are the government, there is a conflict. Government should (even at the local level) set about to protect (not provide) the ability of private citizens to enjoy life & pursue individual aspirations. This should be accomplished through the provision and maintenance of basics like fire protection, law enforcement, infrastructure (roads, bridges, flood protection, etc.). When government involves itself too deeply in the daily lives of the citizenry, the will of a few can begin to erode the liberties of the many. History shows that the result is tyranny. Government is neither our parent nor our nanny nor our role model.
While EK may do many good things in the community, it has no business being in bed with government. While EK may offer citizens in different communities the opportunity to improve their respective communities through private endeavor, it has no business influencing government power to accomplish its' purposes. Especially when its' ownership/directorship is held by elected government officials. For example, use of proceeds to the government (voters & taxpayers) from a wind farm (if any) should not be influenced by a private company that is subject to no voter/taxpayer oversight. We elected officials to make those decisions on our behalf. If they are, as one commissioner said publicly, "unwilling to have open hearings because they don't want to listen to the public bellyaching" then perhaps the commissioners are undeserving of the trust we've placed tn them. If elected/appointed officials prefer to enlist, endorse, and even control (by taking offices/directorships/coordinator positions in) the efforts of a private group instead of directly engaging the citizens who elected them, then perhaps they don't have the strength of character necessary to do what they (not their private associations) were elected to do. If one wants their lives to be directed by some committee then there are opportunities galore in China. Either our elected officials desire to carry out their duties in ways that honestly reflect the republic in which we live, or they are free to resign their positions and pursue change in the private sector.
I'm sure many, like yourself, defend ElkKonnected, because EK has some good intentions. Just remember, the road to hell is said to be paved with good intentions. Even Hitler started with the good intentions of restoring Germany's devastated economy. But when the good intentions of a few elitists become entangled with the power of government position and/or excessive influence over government power, the liberty of the citizens can quickly become endangered. We look to limit government, not expand its' influence through close association with privileged & unaccountable private groups. Let EK focus its' efforts on private activities that improve communities, and let government do its' job of being accountable to the citizens it is elected to represent. Let EK procure it's own callback service and leave the government service to the official purposes of government.
Let the citizens hold the reasonable expectation of our elected officials to make wise & unbiased decisions on behalf of the electorate. Let our elected officials choose between representing the interests of all the voters or managing and advancing the goals of a private company, but not both. And let ElkKonnected and our county government remain completely severed and separate forever!
That statement reflects the foundation of individual freedom. Every level of government should adhere to that basic principle.
Very well put Patriot.
Who is Elk Konnected?
Why won't they publish their membership list?
Who is their President, their secretary, their treasurer?
They say they don't use taxpayers dollars but the truuth is the scholarship grant they recieved from the Kansas Department of Commerce is exactly that taxpayers dollaes.
And as far as I can tell they have only had less that 10% of the residents of Elk County attend their so called community meetings so how can they even be considered to represent the community?
Actually, a 10% turnout in most communities, for anything, would be a huge success. Do you go ?
Ross, got to ask you this- do you attend? Do you have children that benefit from this? Just wondering. I do see Patriots point about using the tax dollars to benefit the group. But are you 100% sure that the scholarship was tax money?? Have you ever received a grant of any sort??? That is just like tax money received. That is money from the government that you don't have to pay back??? Just wondering. I see what Patriot was saying about having commissioners in Elk Konnect, but If they don't vote to benefit one or the other than I see no problem with it. As with most organizations in the area, there are only a select few people that attend and get involved in them. I don't actually go to the meetings, but I am sure if they called and asked me to help in anyway they know if I can I will. I learned this about groups really fast, you know the people that will help and do things and you have those that sit back and complain about how things are ran. If you don't like something get involved in it. Help out however you can, don't just be the ones to complain all the time about everything. I understand that everyone is upset about different issues and all. I get that. Government, even our local one, is struggling to survive. But I for one can't nor choose to sit and complain about it all the time. It does no good. It only makes me worry and upset and frankly I don't have time for either of those!! Life is what you make out of it, I feel that when it comes to government, I vote. I don't like how it's run or things that are done, but if I sit and worry about it all I am doing is causing myself grief and it's just not worth it. Not that the USA isn't worth it, its just I tend to worry more about our men and women that are protecting our freedoms everyday!! They are the ones that are getting the shaft in all of this mess!!! They deserve the highest respect and honor that anyone on this earth deserves!!
Quote from: Patriot on April 19, 2011, 09:39:12 AM
. Government should (even at the local level) set about to protect (not provide) the ability of private citizens to enjoy life & pursue individual aspirations.
In my post above, I forgot to quote the statement in Patriot's post that I was referring to.
Don't you think that if the State of Kansas thought the grant EK got was not appropriate they would have denied the grant application? Also, the whole business about conflict of interest is different when one holds an unpaid position.
Appropriate??? Shall grants be given to the monarchy's favorites. Thought we handled that matter in 1776.
Governemt should not be granting money to any company, organization, or people. Fair enough?????
Quote from: redcliffsw on April 20, 2011, 10:28:39 AM
Appropriate??? Shall grants be given to the monarchy's favorites. Thought we handled that matter in 1776.
Governemt should not be granting money to any company, organization, or people. Fair enough?????
NO
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 20, 2011, 09:32:20 AM
Don't you think that if the State of Kansas thought the grant EK got was not appropriate they would have denied the grant application? Also, the whole business about conflict of interest is different when one holds an unpaid position.
No I don't think the Kansas State Department of Commerce would really pay much attention. Have you ever worked for any government and seen the carelessness that goes on? Where do you think the state get's it's money? Simple --- taxes.
There is no difference in paid or unpaid as far as conflit of interest, it's all about the job. Are there no ethics in this world any longer?
Quote from: Ross on April 20, 2011, 10:51:54 AM
No I don't think the Kansas State Department of Commerce would really pay much attention. Have you ever worked for any government and seen the carelessness that goes on? Where do you think the state get's it's money? Simple --- taxes.
There is no difference in paid or unpaid as far as conflit of interest, it's all about the job. Are there no ethics in this world any longer?
Funny how you characterize the carelessness as a government phenomenon. Actually it is a human condition. It applies to all people in any profession or industry, public or private. Worked in several large corporations over my few years (granted not as many as some obviously :P ) and it applies equally to all. Ever had a phone bill calculated wrong or with incorrect charges, or your cable bill, credit card bill, wrong price on something purchased @ Wal-mart, plane crash because of faulty parts... Mistakes apply everywhere. Just those of government are always under a public microscope and an easy political attack.
Quote from: Lookatmeknow!! on April 20, 2011, 08:06:26 AM
Ross, got to ask you this- do you attend? Do you have children that benefit from this? Just wondering. I do see Patriots point about using the tax dollars to benefit the group. But are you 100% sure that the scholarship was tax money?? Have you ever received a grant of any sort??? That is just like tax money received. That is money from the government that you don't have to pay back??? Just wondering. I see what Patriot was saying about having commissioners in Elk Konnect, but If they don't vote to benefit one or the other than I see no problem with it. As with most organizations in the area, there are only a select few people that attend and get involved in them. I don't actually go to the meetings, but I am sure if they called and asked me to help in anyway they know if I can I will. I learned this about groups really fast, you know the people that will help and do things and you have those that sit back and complain about how things are ran. If you don't like something get involved in it. Help out however you can, don't just be the ones to complain all the time about everything. I understand that everyone is upset about different issues and all. I get that. Government, even our local one, is struggling to survive. But I for one can't nor choose to sit and complain about it all the time. It does no good. It only makes me worry and upset and frankly I don't have time for either of those!! Life is what you make out of it, I feel that when it comes to government, I vote. I don't like how it's run or things that are done, but if I sit and worry about it all I am doing is causing myself grief and it's just not worth it. Not that the USA isn't worth it, its just I tend to worry more about our men and women that are protecting our freedoms everyday!! They are the ones that are getting the shaft in all of this mess!!! They deserve the highest respect and honor that anyone on this earth deserves!!
I do have child that I fought the state of Washington's child protective services to get out of the system. CPS as it is known up there (SRS I think down here) lied in family court about my wife and my self. Their social worker had her own personal agenda. It took me 1 1/2 years and over $30 G's as a second morgage to defeat them. My attorney failed to do what was necessary and I finally got the opportunity to speak in the court room. I told the Judge I and my wife would take psychological evaluations and pay for the test to prove we were not the type of people they were making us out to be. We should hav got him when he was a year and a half old but it took a year and a half to get him. He was physically and mentally abused by his biological parents and again by his foster mother. Now, don't get me wrong I'm not picking on CPS or SRS I happen to have a neice in the upper ranks of the agency in yet another state. My neice was completely flabbergasted by my story. She is a decent person and a good mother. The point to telling you this is, organizations do some times do the wrong things.
But in response to your question does my son benefit from Elk Konnected --- no.
Oh, I left Kansas in '66 I served in the military from 1966-1976 I made 8 tours of Viet Nam. I had planned to make a career of it but I changed my mind due to the number of thieves, alcholics, druggies and the trending lack of leadership and several other reaso Kansasns. I worked for the Department of Defense from 1994-2005. There again I saw much of the same stuff and a lot of lying and cheating and dirty dealing--- I just wasn't raised that way. They forced me off the job and into disability retirement even though I was out working most of my fellow employees. They simply said either you go with disability retirement or go with nothing. Truthfully I wasn't a bit happy about it until I found my little retirement farm here in Elk County. I am glad to be back in Kansas.
Am I going to worry about Elk Konnected a doing nd what I consider their wrong doing, no, not worry I don't like worry.
Lookatmeknow!! I hope, I have answered your questions. I gave a lot more information than I probably should have.
Yes, Ross, I did work for state Gov't my entire working life and had a private business on the side. I had to promise not to advertise for work for my side business while working for the state. New Castle County also has an ethics board and every year employees who are in politically sensitive jobs have to write and declare anything they are involved in that could have a conflict of interest appearance. My husband had to declare that he was a volunteer firefighter because he worked in the Planning Dept. He even had to declare when his own sister got her realtors license. On the one hand he had to live in New Castle County as a job requirement, but on the other hand we couldn't buy a house from a realtor or builder without a lot of problems because he dealt with Realtors and builders every day. So we finally found a nice house within the city limits and bought directly from the owner at market price. Even at that he had to declare it to the ethics board. Most Gov't people are just like everyone else, hardworking, honest people who do the best they can at their jobs. Yes, there are skunks, like at every other job. Sure people have bad experiences, who doesn't? But is it fair to judge everyone and assume they are bad too?
Right now Al is, and has been, an official on the New Castle Pension Board. I assume you know what pension boards do. He is the retiree rep. Aha you say! Conflict of interest because he receives a pension! Nope, it's an unpaid position, and he does nothing that could affect his own pension. He was appointed by the President of County Council.
There are many checks and balances in Gov't. Usually it works just fine, sometimes it doesn't. Just look at what's going on in Michigan. Would you want the Kansas Governor to simply take over Howard and declare the town no longer exists and close down all the offices and services? Founding Fathers my foot! Somebody better do something and fast! I could make a comment about the sanity of anybody who would reup for Viet Nam that many times but I'm afraid you wouldn't know I was just kidding.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 20, 2011, 02:49:07 PM
...New Castle County also has an ethics board... I could make a comment about the sanity of anybody who would reup for Viet Nam that many times but I'm afraid you wouldn't know I was just kidding.
1. This has nothing to do with your precious New Castle, or you.
2. You just did make a comment. And to infer questionable sanity on the part of anyone who served multiple tours in Nam is, imo, disgusting. It's damned sure not anything to kid about. If you have any conscience, you should be ashamed.
"I could make a comment about the sanity of anybody who would reup for Viet Nam that many times but I'm afraid you wouldn't know I was just kidding."
Of all of the disgusting posts I have seen on the Forum, this has to be the worst. I had Family and Friends that PROUDLY SERVED in Vietnam, I lost Family in Vietnam, I had family that proudly served Multiple tours.
My, my, aren't we touchy. There is NOTHING you can tell me about Viet Nam! I lost people there too. Why so self righteous? Any body of a certain age has sorrow and sad stories to tell about Viet Nam. I said I wouldn't say it! So get off it! Some of you out there treat each other in a very incredible miserable fashion, so don't bother me! BAH!
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 21, 2011, 09:10:58 AM
My, my, aren't we touchy. There is NOTHING you can tell me about Viet Nam! I lost people there too. Why so self righteous? Any body of a certain age has sorrow and sad stories to tell about Viet Nam. I said I wouldn't say it! So get off it! Some of you out there treat each other in a very incredible miserable fashion, so don't bother me! BAH!
Why so defensive, diane? We all get caught with foot in mouth occasionally (not so often our whole leg, however). You said you wouldn't say it but you might as well have said it, as you put the true thoughts of your heart clearly on display and made no attempt to recant. No matter how you try to justify, those thoughts are clear... and no less disgusting.
Good God, people. This sounds like a bunch of 3rd graders on the playground with the class bully heading up the hate and discontent. Now I know why I got away from the forum.
Sorry Flo, I surely didn't mean to offend you. Not everyone on here is allowed to make quips or poke fun without getting called on it and a few are always watching to see who they can "catch". I think Ross understands I wasn't serious and if not HE can tell me. He doesn't need anyone to run interference for him.
Quote from: flintauqua on April 21, 2011, 11:41:08 AM
One difference between the bully on the playground and the chief one on here. On the playground the bully had a face and a real given name, on here the bully hides behind a mask of anonymity.
How True :D
Heh,Heh, I know exactly who Patriot is. He was unmasked. I have no plans to expose him though. It might affect his business.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 21, 2011, 12:17:04 PM
Heh,Heh, I know exactly who Patriot is. He was unmasked. I have no plans to expose him though. It might affect his business.
Most gracious of you, diane. Though 'expose' carries sinister overtones, and nothing about my life or business is sinister. In any event, I, as well, shall continue hold facts possessed about your personal affairs in the strictest confidence.
An additional thought.... If some folks here spent more time focusing on the content of what's being said, and less time worring about who's who to feed their more base nature and desire for background gossip, more valuable debate might prevail.
Quote from: flintauqua on April 21, 2011, 11:41:08 AM
One difference between the bully on the playground and the chief one on here. On the playground the bully had a face and a real given name, on here the bully hides behind a mask of anonymity.
Spoken like a true Saul Alinsky follower who can not debate the facts, but rather must have an individual to isolate and demonize. Amusing nonetheless. Of course none of this serves to advance a discussion about elected officials, conflict of interest or the upcoming topic regarding demonstrable abuse of official power by government representatives, now does it?
There are always individuals or small groups of individuals who try to distort facts by subjectively using them out of context, or in the case of imperical data, changing parameters of a statistical analysis so the numbers will fit a predetermined outcome.
When these individuals try to hide behind a cloak of anonymity, then others must ask why. What does the individual or group have to gain (or lose) by the presentation of unadulterated facts or statistical analysis?
Now as for how this relates to this specific Forum topic. I believe Elk Konnected has been very open about the identity of their members and their agenda. There are posts on this very Forum that list out many active members of Elk Konnected.
I know the vast majority of the members of Elk Konnected and I believe their motives to be progressive in the classical sense; a change from the status quo to something new and different. Not Radically progressive or even Liberally progressive, but Moderately to Conservatively progressive. If I need to expound on the meaning of the previous sentence, just ask.
From the nature and content of your posts, Patriot, I infer that your general political beliefs fall into the Reactionary sector of the spectrum coupled with a fondness for Libertarian or possibly anarcho-capitalistic ideals. Again, if I need to expand upon those terms, just ask.
I find that here, on other forums, blog-spots, television news channels, etc political agendas similar to the one I just inferred upon you get presented without the audience being informed as to who or whom is backing that position. I mean Glenn Beck and the like do every now and then slip up and make an off the cuff comment thanking the Koch Brothers or one of their many political hacks, but does the the general public know anymore about their political and economic motives then they do about George Soros'?
The lack of transparency is just as bad on the reactionary right side of the political spectrum as it is on the radically liberal left.
Anyone who chastises the motives and transparency of another person or group from behind a cloak of anonymity certainly should not be shocked when labeled a hypocrite.
Charles M. Durbin
Mr. Durbin.
First, thank you for the label. You are surely as entitled to your opinion as the next person.
If anything I, or others, proffer (anonymously or otherwise) is insufficiently supported or requires further study to clarify, then responsible readers are more than likely going to be willing do their own investigation of the information offered (as opposed to investigation of the messenger). Any other approach would be 'reactionary', would it not?
If the basis of your approach to any point made is to question the veracity of the writer based on your knowledge of their identity by name or address, then your premise is shallow, to say the least. Knowing that information would give you no real knowledge of the author in any case. Knowing that a person is named Brown and lives at Number 10 Downing in London neither adds to nor subtracts from the content of their speech or writings. Moreover, if you need a detailed resume in order to evaluate the content of a writer's text, then your focus is obviously not on the information presented. It would seem you have more an unsettled interest in the author than the content of their message. If the use of a moniker is consumes so much of your focus, then to debate any issue with you in depth would seem pointless.
Thanks again for the liberal assignment of the labels of bully and hypocrite. I'll look forward to your next lectures on the appropriateness of judging, name calling and hate.
Quotebut rather must have an individual to isolate and demonize.
You're kinda the pot callin the kettle black complaining about this one bud. I've been on the receiving end of you doing that very thing more than once LOL.
As for ElkConnected.....if you dont like what they are doing or the way they are doing it...haul your ass down there and get involved in it. From what I've read on here and heard from people they are doing some good getting things done. As someone who grew up there/Severy and whos two oldest kids grew up there/Severy....trying to get something going to improve the opportunities and activities available is NOT a bad thing!
and thats all I got to say about that!
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 21, 2011, 11:07:00 AM
Sorry Flo, I surely didn't mean to offend you. Not everyone on here is allowed to make quips or poke fun without getting called on it and a few are always watching to see who they can "catch". I think Ross understands I wasn't serious and if not HE can tell me. He doesn't need anyone to run interference for him.
I was not offended. I enjoyed my job in the service and wanted to make it a career. I just couldn't handle what they called leadership. On several occassions I should have ended up in brig. But again I am not easily offended and can handle a good joke even some that are considered tasteless. I wasn't looking for recognition for my service because it was an education and I was paid decently for my time. I still have many friends from those days I am in contact with thanks to the internet and facebook. But yes, I'm insane it's better than the alternative. And I get high on life not drugs.
So on closing, I wish you all a great Easter.
Ross,
When I grow up, I want to be like you. Have a nice easter!
Quote from: Anmar on April 21, 2011, 10:36:31 PM
Ross,
When I grow up, I want to be like you. Have a nice easter!
Who told you I'm grown up? I wanna talk to that suckker.
I'm juast getting older and slower.LOL
Have a nice Easter your self.