I put this on here because I was surprised that no one has discussed what is happening with these pirates.
4 American hostages killed by pirates off Somalia
By JASON STRAZIUSO and MALKHADIR M. MUHUMED
NAIROBI, Kenya
A U.S. Navy destroyer was shadowing a hijacked yacht with four Americans aboard when a pirate fired a rocket-propelled grenade, followed by bursts of gunfire. U.S. special forces scrambled onto the occupied vessel only to find the four Americans fatally wounded.
The yachting enthusiasts from California and Washington killed off the coast of East Africa on Tuesday were the first Americans slain by Somali pirates since a wave of attacks began six years ago. One of the American couples had been sailing around the world since 2004 handing out Bibles.
The deaths of the four travelers, all in their late 50s or 60s, appeared to underscore an increasingly brutal and aggressive shift by pirates in their treatment of hostages.
Killing hostages "has now become part of our rules," said a pirate who identified himself as Muse Abdi. He referred as a turning point to last week's sentencing of a pirate to 33 years in prison for the 2009 attack on the U.S. cargo vessel the Maersk Alabama -- just two days before the hijacking.
"From now on, anyone who tries to rescue the hostages in our hands will only collect dead bodies," Abdi said. "It will never, ever happen that hostages are rescued and we are hauled to prison."
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton strongly condemned the killing of the Americans as "deplorable," saying in a statement the slayings underscored the need for international cooperation in fighting the scourge of piracy in waters off the Horn of Africa.
Jean and Scott Adam of Marina del Rey, near Los Angeles, had been sailing their 58-foot yacht Quest around the world since December 2004, and had been joined in recent months by Phyllis Macay and Bob Riggle of Seattle.
Four U.S. warships had been shadowing the Quest since shortly after it was seized south of Oman on Friday, and U.S. officials were in radio contact with the captors as the pirates tried to sail it to the Somali shore. The power behind such abductions for ransom -- a multimillion-dollar business -- lies not with the pirates at sea but their financial backers on land. And once the kidnappers reach shore with their hostages, options for rescue are limited.
A channel of negotiations had been opened, and on Monday two pirates boarded the USS Sterett, a guided-missile destroyer some 600 yards (meters) from the seized yacht, and they stayed overnight, said Vice Adm. Mark Fox, commander of the U.S. 5th Fleet in Bahrain.
By the next morning, though, things quickly turned deadly, with all signs pointing to a dispute among the pirates
At 8 a.m. local time, Fox said, a rocket-propelled grenade was fired from the Quest at the Sterett and missed, followed almost immediately by the sound of small arms fire coming from the yacht.
Several pirates then appeared on the yacht deck with their hands up. U.S. naval forces rushed aboard the vessel and found all four Americans had been shot; two pirates also lay dead from gun shot wounds.
The special forces troops tried to provide lifesaving care to the Americans, but they died, Fox said.
Fifteen pirates were taken into custody -- 13 aboard the yacht as well as the two who had been negotiating aboard the Sterett, Fox said. In addition, two pirates were killed in the operation, including one who was knifed by a member of the U.S. force, Fox said.
President Barack Obama, who was notified about killing of the Americans at 4:42 a.m. Washington time, had authorized the military on Saturday to use force in case of an imminent threat to the hostages, said White House spokesman Jay Carney.
Pirates have increased attacks off the coast of East Africa despite an international flotilla of warships dedicated to protecting vessels and stopping the pirate assaults.
But the conventional wisdom in the shipping industry had been that Somali pirates are businessmen looking for a multimillion-dollar ransom payday, not insurgents looking to terrorize people.
"We have heard threats against the lives of Americans before but it strikes me as being very, very unusual why they would kill hostages outright," said Graeme Gibbon-Brooks, the head of Dryad Maritime Intelligence, adding that the pirates must realize that killing Americans would invite a military response.
Friends, family and fellow sailors said that despite an adventurous spirit, the four Americans were meticulous planners who knew the dangers they faced.
Jean and Scott Adams, both in their 60s, had been sailing around the world since December 2004 with a yacht full of Bibles to distribute to remote regions. They were joined by Riggle, a veterinarian who volunteered at the Seattle Animal Shelter, and 59-year-old Macay, a sailing enthusiast.
"Great sailors, good people. They were doing what they wanted to do, but that's small comfort in the face of this," said Joe Grande of the Seattle Singles Yacht Club, where Riggle and Macay were members.
Around Christmas, the Quest joined the Blue Water Rally, an around-the-world race. But race organizers said the Americans recently left the race despite what Fox said were warnings about the dangers of sailing in the Horn of Africa region.
The Blue Water Rally said in a statement Tuesday that though yachtsmen are discouraged from sailing in the region, the only other choices are to sail around the stormy and dangerous tip of South Africa or sail back across the Pacific.
The Adams had traveled from Panama in 2005 to Fiji in 2007 and Cambodia last year. They most recently sailed from Thailand to Sri Lanka and India, and were on their way to Oman when captured.
Pirates have become increasingly bold in their attacks despite a flotilla of international warships patrolling the waters off East Africa. The last time pirates kidnapped a U.S. citizen -- during the 2009 hijacking of the Maersk Alabama -- Navy sharpshooters killed two pirates and rescued the cargo ship's captain.
But Tuesday's bloody events are apt to leave U.S. military planners in a quandary: Do they go after the pirates harder? Do they attack their bases on Somalia's ungoverned shores?
One maritime expert said it's too early to tell.
"This is a first," said Gibbon-Brooks, the analyst. "We don't know if the situation is related to a straight execution. We don't know if it was related to an attempt to break free. We don't know if it was related to an accident."
He said the killings were "extremely unwise" by the Somalis, and that the deaths threaten what has been a lucrative if illicit business.
After last week's sentencing by a New York court of a Somali pirate in the Maersk Alabama attack, some pirates warned that Americans would be targeted.
"It's a black day for us and also the Americans, but they lost bigger than us," a pirate who gave his name as Bile Hussein told the AP. "If they still want a solution and safety for their citizens in the oceans, let them release our men they arrested."
Just minutes before the news of the American deaths, a pirate who gave his name as Abdullahi Mohamed told AP by phone that if the yacht were attacked, "the hostages will be the first to go."
"Some pirates have even suggested rigging the yacht with land mines and explosives so as the whole yacht explodes with the first gunshot," said Mohamed, who claimed to be a friend of the pirates holding the four Americans.
The military said U.S. forces have been monitoring the Quest for about three days, since shortly after the Friday attack. Four Navy warships were involved, including the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise.
Mohamed, the pirate in Somalia, told AP that pirate leaders had been expecting the yacht to make landfall soon.
Five cars full of pirates were headed toward the pirate dens of Eyl and Gara'ad in anticipation of the Quest reaching land Monday, he said.
Had the Americans been brought ashore, they may have faced a long hostage ordeal like the 388 days the British sailing couple Paul and Rachel Chandler spent in the hands of pirates. The two were released in November.
"This incident is a clear message ... that it's time the world community quickly steps up to stop these pirate criminal activities. They should be treated mercilessly," said Gen. Yusuf Ahmed Khayr, the security minister in the northern Somalia region of Puntland, a pirate haven
I stayed away from this in favor of others but since nobody has commented, I will. I hate that the world is becoming even more dangerous.This pirate business, and it is a business, has to be stopped somehow.The pirates have now said that they will kill all hostages from now on so perhaps it is time to fire on them immediately and hope for the best. The captured pirates should be executed right now, no trial. Those four people had been warned to say out of that area so I'm not sure why they thought they could get away with it, a very sad choice. What do you think?
I think they should have stayed out of the area, no matter what their mission was.
Yes, the pirates should be dealt with, but shouldn't the country of Somalia deal with them?
Quote from Wilma:
Yes, the pirates should be dealt with, but shouldn't the country of Somalia deal with them?
Wilma, You aren't serious asking that question are you ??
Diane, I think four .50 cal sniper rifles or machine guns strategically located on a ship will stop the pirates "dead " in their tracks. Why we don't sink the Mother Ships is beyond me. If a ship doesn't want to be armed how about a few bowling balls. A dingy or rubber raft pulls up along side a ship---drop a bowling ball---boink, there went a smashed skull or if you miss a skull, there goes the row boat to the bottom of the sea !!
Jarhead, just as serious as I am about staying out of the area.
Ron, I agree with your justice. I think we should put a Yacht in the area where the Pirates work and put Military Personnel dressed as vacationers on the yacht , let the Pirates try to board and wipe them out. A few times of that will reduce the pirates activities. These people are nothing but common murderers. Somalia is not going to deal with the pirates at all.
Wilma, How is Somalia supposed to deal with the pirates when they have not had a functioning Govt. since the early 90's. It is a lawless country that's inhabited with murderers and thugs. What is your definition of 'staying out of the area" ? The Gulf of Aden ? The Indian Ocean ? With the help of their 'Mother Ships" they just keep ranging further and further out to sea. If we had no ships allowed west of Hawaii, sooner or later the pirates will sail that far to seize a ship. The ONLY way to deal with the pirates is to eliminate ALL of them or make it too risky for them to continue in their evil ways.
Frank,
I say a platoon of well armed Marines in a dozen 10 ft. John boats could solve the problem but as you know, I'm a tad prejudiced when it pertains to my beloved Corps . :)
Big Ron, I say you are right and you have every right and reason to be prejudiced when it comes to your Corp, they and you earned it.
How could the U.S. justify moving in and cleaning up another nation's problems? Oh, yes, we have done that, haven't we?
"Pirate ships and crews from the North African states of Tripoli, Tunis, and Algiers (the Barbary Coast), . . . were the scourge of the Mediterranean. Capturing merchant ships and enslaving or ransoming their crews provided the Muslim rulers of these nations with wealth and naval power."
Sound slightly familiar? That's the opening on the Wikipedia entry on the First Barbary War fought between the fledgling United States of America and the North African Muslim states from 1801-1805.
This is where the Marine Corps Theme gets the line "to the shores of Tripoli"
Quote from Wilma:
How could the U.S. justify moving in and cleaning up another nation's problems? Oh, yes, we have done that, haven't we?
Wilma,
I didn't say clean up another countries mess---I said "kill the pirates". How do we justify it ? I'd say that them killing the four Americans ,in cold blood, would justify us in killing every last one of the pirates. When they capture a tanker of oil and hold it for a $10,000,000 ransom, do you think we should just let it be "business as usual" and pay the ransom? Do you not think that 10 mil gets passed on to the consumer by the owners of the tanker ?
And yes, we have went into foreign countries and cleaned up their mess before and I think a lot of those countries are thankful that they aren't speaking German today.
Jarhead, you know and I know that if the Marines were allowed to do what they can do, there wouldn't be any problem. Unfortunately, any time that the U.S. does anything like that the world shouts up a storm about those nasty Americans. Yes, these people should be hung and quartered and a few other things that this lady won't talk about.
I am wondering though, is this in International waters or Somalian waters. And what are the International laws about piracy in International waters?
I think though that if I had a choice of walking a block through a dark alley where many murders have happened or walking three blocks to get to the same place, I would take the three blocks.
Clean up their mess??...Yeah, we were real successful with that endeavor in Mogadishu.
This pirate business has bothered me for some reason. I haven't studied or researched anything about international waters or what the U.S. can do about our citizens being murdered right on open sea. I know nothing about the country of Somalia. Just kind of know where it is located. I know or have been told that there is a large Somalian community building in Emporia, Ks. I believe it is time for me to do some studying about this problem.
Here is a link about Somalia Pirates from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia)
It is quite interesting reading.
Janet,
I heard the Somalias were about to take over Emporia a couple years back but have since left town for parts unknown. I have no idea if that is true or not but a friend from there told me that
I wonder why no one has said anything about going after those corp.s that illegally fish or dispose of toxic waste in somali waters? You can't really blame a people for trying to protect what is theirs or for exacting vengance for crimes against their country.
Varmit,
So you are telling me if an illegal alien comes to Elk County and fishes in Elk river without a license, plus takes a whiz in the water, after drinking a case of Corona and throwing the empties in OUR river, that would give me the right to drag his trailer house into my yard and hold his family hostage until he pays me a fat ransom, but on a whim I just kill his wife and kids---but it's OK because the bad man fished in our waters illegally and dumped his "toxic waste" in MY water ?? Same thing, just on a smaller scale.
That is not the same thing jarhead and you know it. You say the pirates are wrong for defending their coastline and for going after those they perceive to be criminal yet you support US going into their country and killing them all. Wouldn't you defend your home and country by any means nessecary and say it was justified?
The ideal of the U.N. and other nations trying to dictate to somalia how to govern itself is appaling. Granted vessels in those waters have a right to defend themselves but for other countries to put troops on the ground in that country is wrong. Simple solution is to stay out of those waters. I find it ironic that some of the nations involved in going after the pirates are also the same nations dumping and fishing illegally. But theres big money in that, so that won't ever be stopped.
Oh, jarhead, by the way, if you're going to get pissed about the folks whizzing in our rivers, fishing illegally, and throwing their empties in the water, you'd be better off looking for the citizens around here that do that more than any illegal.
Varmit, I'm not sure that anyone said anything about going onto "their" land and taking care of the problem. I believe the consesus is to just blow them out of the international water, so to speak.
Do you honestly think that by taking hostages of people and ships and asking for ransoms in international waters is the Somalians way of protecting "their" waters and land from toxic dumping and illegal fishing.
These pirates do not answer to any government because Somalia does not have a government. These pirates are just out and out criminals looking to make a buck, either for themselves or whoever they work for. They are not defending anything.
Jarhead, as for the Somalians leaving Emporia, that's a possibility. The people that I knew that had told me that no longer live there.
Just throwing this question out there...who governs international waters? Anybody? Anybody have an answer?
Okay. Here is a link to Wikipedia about governing international waters. Very informative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters)
Who governs international waters? According to Wikipedia, Ships sailing the high seas are generally under the jurisdiction of the flag state;[2] (if there is one) however, when a ship is involved in certain criminal acts, such as piracy,[3] any nation can exercise jurisdiction under the doctrine of universal jurisdiction.
So what is Universal Jurisdiction? According to Wikipedia, Universal jurisdiction or universality principle is a principle in public international law (as opposed to private international law) whereby states claim criminal jurisdiction over persons whose alleged crimes were committed outside the boundaries of the prosecuting state, regardless of nationality, country of residence, or any other relation with the prosecuting country. The state backs its claim on the grounds that the crime committed is considered a crime against all, which any state is authorized to punish, as it is too serious to tolerate jurisdictional arbitrage.
What is Jurisdictional arbitrage? According to Wikipedia, Jurisdictional arbitrage is the practice of taking advantage of the discrepancies between competing legal jurisdictions. It takes its name from arbitrage, the practice in finance of purchasing a good at a lower price in one market and selling it at a higher price in another. Just as in financial arbitrage, the attractiveness of jurisdiction arbitrage depends largely on its transaction costs — in this case the costs of switching legal service providers from one government to another.[
Jurisdictional arbitrage is a popular second-best strategy amongst anarchists who believe that it will allow them to avoid state control and persecution.[1]
So, the United States is within its rights to prosecute these pirates to the fullest extent of the law. However; does that stop the piracy? No. How do we do that? I still say, steal a Russian sub and a Chinese sub, blow them out of that international water, and blame it on the Communists.
Quote from: Varmit on February 24, 2011, 09:25:27 PM
Clean up their mess??...Yeah, we were real successful with that endeavor in Mogadishu.
Varmit, Not being a history buff, I really didn't know what your comment here meant. I didn't even know what Mogdishu was. Here is the link, (for those forum members who might be a ignorant as I), to explain the Battle of Mogdishu, also referred to as Battle of the Black Sea and Black Hawk Down (in popular culture.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993))
I like reading some of these posts, but find that at my age I am pretty ignorant as to what world history is all about.
I think that as a great idea Janet. Why people decide to put themselves in such potentially dangerous situations without a means to protect themselves is just beyond me. Of course others are expected to come to the rescue.
Quote from: Janet Harrington on February 25, 2011, 07:23:20 PM
Varmit, I'm not sure that anyone said anything about going onto "their" land and taking care of the problem. I believe the consesus is to just blow them out of the international water, so to speak.
Do you honestly think that by taking hostages of people and ships and asking for ransoms in international waters is the Somalians way of protecting "their" waters and land from toxic dumping and illegal fishing.
These pirates do not answer to any government because Somalia does not have a government. These pirates are just out and out criminals looking to make a buck, either for themselves or whoever they work for. They are not defending anything.
Janet, my comments about folks going into somalia were in response to the article you posted (reply #13).
As for why the pirates are doing what they're doing...yes I do believe that if it weren't for the illegal activites of other nations it wouldn't be a problem. I think that this is the "pirates" way of saying "stay out of our waters or this is what will happen". Are they out and out criminals looking to make a buck...not anymore than the corporations and their parent countries involved in plundering the natural resources of somalia. But you won't hear anything about that because the same countries that are trying to stop the pirates are the same ones involved in the illegal activities. They don't give a damn about the hostages.
There wouldn't be so many pirates if the people of somalia that used to make a living fishing could still do so.
"I nearly become a Somali pirate": Dji
http://www.somalilandtoday.net/?p=395
What a sad country Somalia is. Without an active government, I don't see how it is going to get any better.
Quote from: Varmit on February 24, 2011, 09:25:27 PM
Clean up their mess??...Yeah, we were real successful with that endeavor in Mogadishu.
Just so that you know, we weren't in there to clean up any mess, we were there to secure the food that was being brought into the country. We landed a MEU in there and secured mogadishu and effected a environment where the factions came to the table except 1. Then clinton took office and the dumbass sent in a ill equipped strike squad to capture or kill the leader of that one faction and instead it killed bout 60 women and children in the house they attacked. One of my friends was there evacuating embassy and other folks from there, got left to survive the night. He did survive but at a major cost of over half his team and personal injury that terminated his military career.
We were successful in that we did capture targets we went in after, and we did bring the country to the bargaining table to stop the starvation under HW Bush, but when billy boy there got his day in the white house he did it without superior firepower and fubar'd the mission.
Quote from: Varmit on February 26, 2011, 08:06:56 AM
There wouldn't be so many pirates if the people of somalia that used to make a living fishing could still do so.
Oh come on. THats a bunch of crap. THe reason there are so many pirates is that criminals run the country. No rule of law just gives people the ability to rape pillage and plunder which is in their nature to begin with. The honest folks are just weak to them when the only rule to follow is the strongest and best armed will surivive.
Quote from: Janet Harrington on February 27, 2011, 01:04:08 AM
What a sad country Somalia is. Without an active government, I don't see how it is going to get any better.
At this point in time it will take a active government based on the rule of law, and arming the honest citizens. It will be a blood bath for a while but rest assured that the citizens that want their countyr back would succeed if they had leadership and support.
When you hear someone touting 'absolute, unbridled individual freedom', 'screw the rule of law' and, 'I am a law unto myself', remember that Somalia is the likely outcome. Dominance of the most vicious & violent... anarchy & collapse of order. Every man, woman & child for themselves. The foundational beliefs of a society and the adherence to those beliefs, lead to such things.... not the actions of a bunch of corporate capitalists.
Quote from: Patriot on February 27, 2011, 05:51:12 PM
When you hear someone touting 'absolute, unbridled individual freedom', 'screw the rule of law' and, 'I am a law unto myself', remember that Somalia is the likely outcome. Dominance of the most vicious & violent... anarchy & collapse of order. Every man, woman & child for themselves. The foundational beliefs of a society and the adherence to those beliefs, lead to such things.... not the actions of a bunch of corporate capitalists.
Reminds me of the book Lord of the Flies.