Elk County Forum

Interesting article and straight...

"I think Glenn Beck should stick to politics".
-Victoria Jackson
Read more & the video:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=250709

You know, if it is one thing that I'm sick and tired of (and at times in the past have been guilty of) is so-called "christians" going off like they have a monopoly on Gods mind and heart.  I've got a newsflash for 'em.  God is a lot bigger than the one dipicted in a book that was penned by man. 

Quote from: redcliffsw on January 16, 2011, 07:08:19 AM
Interesting article and straight...

"I think Glenn Beck should stick to politics".
-Victoria Jackson
Read more & the video:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=250709

:P THAT was stupid

Quote from: Varmit on January 16, 2011, 08:04:02 AM
You know, if it is one thing that I'm sick and tired of (and at times in the past have been guilty of) is so-called "christians" going off like they have a monopoly on Gods mind and heart.  I've got a newsflash for 'em.  God is a lot bigger than the one dipicted in a book that was penned by man. 

OMG Varmit LOL  Shhh....this is not a good place to say that!!! You'll get in trouble BIGtime LOL (speaking from experience here LOLOLOLOL) but THANK you for havin the cajones to say it!!

Pam, You might be right, Lord knows I've jumped people on here with the whole "...if you don't pray like I do you're doing it wrong." bit.  But recently I saw something that explained the Bible and religion in a way that just made a hellva lot of sense to me.  I got to thinking about the Bible and there are several things in it that just don't make sense.  Thats not to say that there parts of it that just feel right.  Kinda hard to explain.  But I do know that the Creator is not going to get hung up on wether or not a person is a Baptist, Luthern, Methodist, or whatever.

 :)

Well, He tells about His church in the Bible.  Not sure what you mean by "hung-up" but one has to wonder that they, or the whatever, all can't be right.   

Quote from: redcliffsw on January 17, 2011, 08:11:03 AM
Well, He tells about His church in the Bible.  Not sure what you mean by "hung-up" but one has to wonder that they, or the whatever, all can't be right.   

Geez Red.................open yours eyes

And it"s no skin off his nose if it dont make sense to you and you dont get it. :angel: varmit i hope you like hot beer and BBBQ.

Pam,  I would be interested in reading or seeing whatever it was that had auch an impact on you.  Thanks

Quote from: Roma Jean Turner on January 17, 2011, 09:21:58 AM
Pam,  I would be interested in reading or seeing whatever it was that had auch an impact on you.  Thanks

Think you read Varmits post as mine Roma :) Me..I've had MANY eye-opening and heart opening moments in my life! Startin when I was a kid :)

I would be genuinely interested to know too Varmit

Quote from: redcliffsw on January 17, 2011, 08:11:03 AM
Well, He tells about His church in the Bible.  Not sure what you mean by "hung-up" but one has to wonder that they, or the whatever, all can't be right.   

I'm not saying that they are all right.  All I'm saying is that I don't think doctrine makes a bit of difference to God.  Just as I don't think that it is only so-called christians in heaven.  If God is a God of love then it doesn't make sense to say that only those who pray a certain way, or believe a certain way are going to heaven.  If that were the case, then the only folks to make it to heaven would be those that have heard the gospel.  And I just don't think that Gods wisdom, love, or understanding is limited to a bunch of words written in a book that was written by men and edited so many times that no one knows what the original said.

Well Pam, I can't really say that it was one thing or another, bit of a combination.  I've always been a bit suspicious of organized religion but there were two things that I recently expirenced that got me thinking.  One was my aunts funeral (she was full blood oneida souix and had a traditional funeral) the other was (and I'm gonna get grilled for this one) a video I saw on youtube (yeah,...I know) called the Esotertic Agenda.  In it they talked about early civiliations and how varing religions came to be.  They talked about the design of our world and how everything in it has a purpose.  They showed how early religions that predate Christ have a very similiar storyline.  You'd have to watch it, they explain it better than I could.  Then theres the things that are missing from the Bible, dinosaurs for example.  We know they existed but the Bible makes no mention of them.  If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, making Cain and Abel the first born, then why would God mark Cain and cursed anyone who killed him if there were no one else on earth?  How was Cain able to take a wife if, at the time, the only other woman was his mother?  It just doesn't make sense.  

Then theres the psycology behind belife in the Bible.  Most christians you talk to will say that it is the Word of God penned by man thru divine inspiration.  My question is what do they have to base that on?  A bunch of guys that got together a few thousand years ago, wrote a book, and said that God spoke to us?  Yet they point fingers and yell "Crazy!" when somone like David Koresh says the exact same thing.  Abraham was asked by God to kill his son to prove his faith, and he would have done it if he hadn't been stopped.  Abraham is held up as an example to modern day christians as what it means to have faith and congerations will shout Halluelah!  Of course, they will also shout for the death penalty if someone were to kill their child and say "God told me to.". 

So all of these things combined makes me think that God is a lot bigger than we give Him credit for.

  I'm sorry bout your Aunt ,dude....for real.

   I gotta be honest.......what you wrote here gives me Hope. I have tried to get answers to those same questions you have....not had much luck. As for grillin ya about gettin Light from watchin a video on u-tube......hey...the Creator works in mysterious ways and wisdom is where you find it.....and it can be found in some very unlikely places sometimes.....EVEN the Bible :)

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
...Then theres the things that are missing from the Bible, dinosaurs for example.  We know they existed but the Bible makes no mention of them.

'erets hayah tohuw bohuw choshek paniym tĕhowm

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
A bunch of guys that got together a few thousand years ago, wrote a book, and said that God spoke to us? 

The Bible was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 different authors in quite diverse locations.  Not likely that they got together at all.  Now, how do we explain the sources of myriad of other spiritual belief systems?  And how is it that so many of them are held with so much less documented history.  From a scientific & mathematical standpoint, you will find there is vastly more evidence of the accuracy & continuity of Biblical texts than there is for the likes of any of the great philosophers...Pythagoras, Hippo, Diogenes, Aristotle, etc.  A scientifically significant statistical difference.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
Abraham was asked by God to kill his son to prove his faith, and he would have done it if he hadn't been stopped.

Perhaps the lesson for man was 1) That he was stopped, and 2)That it was his faithfulness in following the belief that God would provide an escape from certain disaster.  Which God was faithful to provide.  A theme, btw that is consistent throughout the Bible, even to matters of salvation of the eternal persuasion.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
Of course, they will also shout for the death penalty if someone were to kill their child and say "God told me to.". 

True, and absolute evidence that the Bible's evaluation of man's condition as being totally depraved at the core and in dire need of an escape from that condition is quite accurate.  Not unlike that silly situation Abraham was in.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
So all of these things combined makes me think that God is a lot bigger than we give Him credit for.

On that we totally agree.  I've found that the more one really studies the Bible, taking into account the meanings of ancient languages the bigger God is than we are even able to give Him credit for.  I do sometimes wonder if those who are quick to try and find any possible inconsistency in (and hence possible escape from) the Bible are as equally hypercritical of their own belief systems.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 12:41:44 PM
I'm not saying that they are all right.  All I'm saying is that I don't think doctrine makes a bit of difference to God.

Whose doctrine.... God's or man's?

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 12:41:44 PM
Just as I don't think that it is only so-called christians in heaven.

I've maintained for years that pews in churches are filled with folks goin' straight to hell in a hand basket.  'So-called' Christians are a dime a dozen.  The Bible even teaches as much.  Just calling oneself a Christian don't necessarily make it so.  Nor does goin' to church every Sunday (twice on Easter).  I don't think the place will be populated by heathens either.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 12:41:44 PM
If God is a God of love then it doesn't make sense to say that only those who pray a certain way, or believe a certain way are going to heaven.  If that were the case, then the only folks to make it to heaven would be those that have heard the gospel.

There are at least 3 types of love expressed in the Bible... Generally the Bible only attributes one kind to God.  Which kind are you attributing to God in this case? The Bible never makes a certain kind(s) of prayer, nor even the hearing of the Gospel a condition for salvation.  As for who gets into heaven, aren't the conditions kinda God's decision?  And is God big enough to both set those conditions as well as make some exceptions if He so wishes.  And who said we are entitled to be consulted on such matters?  To hold an expectation of such might just be the height arrogance, no?  

I think the problem we often confront is our unwillingness to face & accept the Sovereignty of God.  Sovereignty sure can crimp our freestyle ways of thinking.  Kids just hate it when mom or dad set the rules.  Even more so when the rules seem arbitrary or capricious.  But then kids don't know it all, do they.  From a purely human perspective... sovereignty sucks...so why not question God?

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 12:41:44 PM
And I just don't think that Gods wisdom, love, or understanding is limited to a bunch of words written in a book that was written by men and edited so many times that no one knows what the original said.

Again, I would bet your definition of 'love' here is not from a biblical perspective but rather a human one.  Varmit, while I can empathize with your sentiment,  I suspect that you are falling into a trap.  A very old trap.  How much have you really come to know about the oldest texts and comparisons to subsequent various translations?  How different are they really! What are the significant differences, why are bthe different and do those differences change the meanings? It sounds more like you may be upset that the Bible might be accurate and that if true you have extremely limited personal options regarding your personal salvation.  You are clearly an independent thinker.  So am I.  Having to accept certain absolutes was a real bitch for me.  I suspect it is for you as well. 

I once heard it suggested that shooting the messenger(s) doesn't change the message.  And the message wasn't first expressed in 20th or 21st century vernacular.

Well, I don't speak whatever this is....

Quote from: Patriot on January 17, 2011, 05:42:31 PM
'erets hayah tohuw bohuw choshek paniym tĕhowm

so I don't see the point your trying to make.  As for how and when the Bible was written that is exactly my point.  It seems to me that if God wanted to cut down on the confusion He would have penned it pretty much all at once.  Without the conflicting text.  And the locations of the authors wasn't all that diverse, I mean they were all pretty much in the same part of the world.  As for the other religions, quite a few of them predate Christianity and their influence was more widespread.  Accuracy and Continuity?  Seriously?  Are you taking into account the texts that were edited out of the original when King James was editor-in-chief?  

Abraham didn't know God would intervene.  If he did then that totally negates the lesson.  But for the sake of argument lets say  you're right.  That God provides an escape from certain disaster.  So explain to me folks that pray for Gods help but never receive it.

True and absolute evidence of man condition??  More like true and absolute evidence that religion has been used to control the actions and thinking of its followers for years.  Not unlike the Jonestown or countless other tragedies.

I sometimes wonder if those who blindly follow the Bible, and are quick to judge others on the fallacy of their beliefs, have the courage to really look at their own and at least admit to the imperfections that, according to their own religion, are inherent in any work of man.

Now, all that being said I didn't post to start an argument.  I was asked about my reason for what I believe and I gave it.  

Quote from: Patriot on January 17, 2011, 06:20:58 PM
Whose doctrine.... God's or man's?

Well, for modern day Christians sake, they better hope that God doesn't care for mans doctrine.  Cause I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ was a Jew, not a Baptist.

QuoteI've maintained for years that pews in churches are filled with folks goin' straight to hell in a hand basket.  'So-called' Christians are a dime a dozen.  The Bible even teaches as much.  Just calling oneself a Christian don't necessarily make it so.  Nor does goin' to church every Sunday (twice on Easter).  I don't think the place will be populated by heathens either.

You're right. According to the Bible the way to Heaven is acceptance of Christ as Saviour.  But in my opinion I don't think that God would send a good person, who loved their family and neighbors, tried to help others when they could, to hell simply because that person was a buddhist, or whatever. 

QuoteThe Bible never makes a certain kind(s) of prayer, nor even the hearing of the Gospel a condition for salvation.  As for who gets into heaven, aren't the conditions kinda God's decision?  And is God big enough to both set those conditions as well as make some exceptions if He so wishes.  And who said we are entitled to be consulted on such matters?  To hold an expectation of such might just be the height arrogance, no?  

Actually, the Bible does make hearing the Gospel a condition, in a way.  How can a person accept Christ w/out hearing His Gospel?  As far as being consulted on such matters, didn't God give us the gift of free thought?  And in doing so the right to question?  But that is actually beside the point, as is all of this, it is not God that I'm questioning but a book and those that would use that book to hold influence over people.

QuoteI think the problem we often confront is our unwillingness to face & accept the Sovereignty of God.  Sovereignty sure can crimp our freestyle ways of thinking.  Kids just hate it when mom or dad set the rules.  Even more so when the rules seem arbitrary or capricious.  But then kids don't know it all, do they.  From a purely human perspective... sovereignty sucks...so why not question God?

Don't get it twisted, I'm not questioning the Soveignty of God.  What I am questioning is our percieved understanding of Him. 

QuoteAgain, I would bet your definition of 'love' here is not from a biblical perspective but rather a human one.  Varmit, while I can empathize with your sentiment,  I suspect that you are falling into a trap.  A very old trap.  How much have you really come to know about the oldest texts and comparisons to subsequent various translations?  How different are they really! What are the significant differences, why are bthe different and do those differences change the meanings? It sounds more like you may be upset that the Bible might be accurate and that if true you have extremely limited personal options regarding your personal salvation.  You are clearly an independent thinker.  So am I.  Having to accept certain absolutes was a real bitch for me.  I suspect it is for you as well. 

Not really.  I know their are certain absoutes.  I know that there is Love, peroid.  It is not "typed".  You either love or don't.  Most modern Christianity is based on the King James Bible, almost all christians today have a belief based on THAT text.  Which is flawed.  Again, look at the cain and able bit.  Which isn't exactly conflicting with other scripture but doesn't make sense.  Accuracy??  Let me ask you this, which book in the New Testament should readers believe when it comes to Christs last words on the cross?

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

I mean you'd think they'd at least get that one right.










[/quote]

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 06:31:59 PM
Well, I don't speak whatever this is....so I don't see the point your trying to make.  

And that would be my point exactly.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 06:31:59 PM
As for how and when the Bible was written that is exactly my point.  It seems to me that if God wanted to cut down on the confusion He would have penned it pretty much all at once.  Without the conflicting text.

Would be interested in examining 'conflicting text' sometime.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 06:31:59 PM
And the locations of the authors wasn't all that diverse, I mean they were all pretty much in the same part of the world.

Given means of travel, life expectancies, etc. Thier world would have been larger than one might imagine.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 06:31:59 PM
Abraham didn't know God would intervene.  If he did then that totally negates the lesson.  But for the sake of argument lets say  you're right.  That God provides an escape from certain disaster.  So explain to me folks that pray for Gods help but never receive it.

1.  No, Abraham believed and acted on that faith.  Quite different than knowing.
2.  Perhaps in His wisdom He had/has a greater purpose that really is none of my concern.  Ultimately, why would I even ask?

You've acknowledged the existence of a god & I'm sure that you would even argue that life ain't a bed of roses or fair all the time.  So what does God have to do with it at all?

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 06:31:59 PM
True and absolute evidence of man condition??  More like true and absolute evidence that religion has been used to control the actions and thinking of its followers for years.  Not unlike the Jonestown or countless other tragedies.

And what controls your actions and thinking?

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 06:31:59 PM
I sometimes wonder if those who blindly follow the Bible, and are quick to judge others on the fallacy of their beliefs, have the courage to really look at their own and at least admit to the imperfections that, according to their own religion, are inherent in any work of man.

I've known many who are.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 06:31:59 PM
Now, all that being said I didn't post to start an argument.  I was asked about my reason for what I believe and I gave it.  

No argument at all.  Just exploration.  And it wasn't my intent to proselytize.  Just look at different perspectives.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 07:10:18 PM
Well, for modern day Christians sake, they better hope that God doesn't care for mans doctrine.  Cause I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ was a Jew, not a Baptist.

There' a difference between doctrine & religion.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 07:10:18 PM
Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

I mean you'd think they'd at least get that one right.

Could it be that He said everything reported by the three?  If so, then there would be no conflict, would there?  And none of the reported statements has any bearing on His message.

a doctrine is  1. John 3:16, rom 10:9, and eph 2:8-9   basic doctrine of salvation.    it isn't anything man made. 

there are several doctrines, dispensational truths.   But all of them point to the doctrine of salvation.

Quote from: Patriot on January 17, 2011, 07:16:17 PM
No argument at all.  Just exploration.  And it wasn't my intent to proselytize.  Just look at different perspectives.

Fair enough. Guess I misunderstood you. 

Quote from: srkruzich on January 17, 2011, 07:46:38 PM
a doctrine is  1. John 3:16, rom 10:9, and eph 2:8-9   basic doctrine of salvation.    it isn't anything man made.
there are several doctrines, dispensational truths.   But all of them point to the doctrine of salvation.

But how do we know this for certain?  Without basing that certainty on any book or text? 

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 09:53:38 PM
Fair enough. Guess I misunderstood you. 

But how do we know this for certain?  Without basing that certainty on any book or text? 

what is it you want to be certain about?  you cannot know anything unless you hear about it.  faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of god.  unless you hear it or read it you can't get it.

No grillin' from me Varmint. I certainly understand your perspective. And appreciate your sharing.  I will try to find the You Tube video.

Welcome 2 my world Varmit :P (ps you gotta watch patriot when he/she seems to be being reasonable...it's a setup for the "kill" :P)

You have started down a very hard but very rewarding road. There is much documentation of other faiths...just as much as there is about Christianity and the best documentation of all......that still small voice.....it wont steer you wrong, you will find threads of Truth in almost all of them and then you will discover the truth that we are all connected. Mitakuye Oyasin :) The other Elders in your aunts family can probly tell you a LOT...you are lucky!

Srkruzich, you're right on.

Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on January 18, 2011, 10:03:40 AM
Welcome 2 my world Varmit :P (ps you gotta watch patriot when he/she seems to be being reasonable...it's a setup for the "kill" :P)

Srkruich, you listed three examples of what you called the "doctrine of salvation".  You say that these weren't man made yet they come from a book that was written by man.  Long story short...how do we know that the Bible, as it is today, is the Word of God for a certainity?  You can't say that if you read it enough or hear it enough that it becomes true.  In a way, that is like telling a lie over and over again until you believe its true.  I know thats a bad anaology but...still the same principle.

Quote from: Varmit on January 18, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
Long story short...how do we know that the Bible, as it is today, is the Word of God for a certainity?

Conversely, how do we know it's not?  This is a matter of faith.  By definition things of faith remain a mystery to mortals. Bible or Buddha you need to make the same argument for all matters of spirituality.

Quote from: Varmit on January 18, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
You can't say that if you read it enough or hear it enough that it becomes true.  In a way, that is like telling a lie over and over again until you believe its true.  I know thats a bad anaology but...still the same principle.

Again, the Bible isn't the only thing that falls into this dilemma.  Virtually all spiritual 'truths' must face the same scrutiny.  Islam, Judaism, Christianity, all manner of native American beliefs, Buddhism, Hinduism.... you name it.   

Quote from: Patriot on January 18, 2011, 08:23:54 PM
Conversely, how do we know it's not?  This is a matter of faith.  By definition things of faith remain a mystery to mortals. Bible or Buddha you need to make the same argument for all matters of spirituality

Well, first we can use the behavior of modern day christians as an example.  They say that God spoke to the men who wrote the Bible.  However, if a person does something and says "God told me to" they will call that person crazy depending on the action.  So, in a way, they are changing the story to fit the so called "facts".  Thats not faith, thats the outcome of brainwashing.  True, you could say this about every major religion, and thats my point.  Faith should open a persons eyes, not seal them shut to the truth.

QuoteAgain, the Bible isn't the only thing that falls into this dilemma.  Virtually all spiritual 'truths' must face the same scrutiny.  Islam, Judaism, Christianity, all manner of native American beliefs, Buddhism, Hinduism.... you name it. 

No doubt.  Thats why I believe a person should take a look at all of them, with an open and unbiased mind.  They all contain elements of truth.  The mystery is why we as a people continue to fight one another over religion.  When all we have to do is open our eyes to the fact that God is so much more than can be contained in a book.  He is every where, in everything, at all times.  No matter the name that we choose to call Him, Yaweh, Allah, He is the same.  The only difference is how we choose to worship.

Quote from: Varmit on January 18, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
Srkruich, you listed three examples of what you called the "doctrine of salvation".  You say that these weren't man made yet they come from a book that was written by man.  Long story short...how do we know that the Bible, as it is today, is the Word of God for a certainity?  You can't say that if you read it enough or hear it enough that it becomes true.  In a way, that is like telling a lie over and over again until you believe its true.  I know thats a bad anaology but...still the same principle.

For one reason its written by 40 authors directed by God. OF which out of 66 books, both the OT as well as the NT are in agreement with each other to start.  THen you have where it is in total agreement with itself.   THe perspectives of the authors give it a different angle view but are in agreement with the other authors.  TIming of the penning of most of the new testament prevents collaboration to "get it Right" by comparing notes.  But it is right and is accurate.  Also history accounts for its authenticity and the events that happened.  Josephus is one such man who wrote about it.  His books agreee with the events.

Age of the bible, it is considered one of the oldest collections of books, that have lasted for longer than 2000 years. And it has remained true to the originals over the centuries.  Granted there are a ton of psudo bibles out there, but you can go back to textus receptus and siniticus as a standard to compare.   

Christianity is the only religion that says you do not have to work for your salvation.  The rest require works/sacrifces ect ect to gain favor. Christianity is the only one where man gained favor in Gods eyes first.  IN FACT Christianity is the only Belief out there where God came looking for us, not us seeking him. 
All thats in the bible. 

Simple logic tells me when everyone has a little truth, then they are on the wrong road.  IF theres only a little truth in other beliefs to be gained, then it means theres a whole lot of lies in it.  I mean come on, a little chocolate syrup colors the whole glass of milk doesn't it?  does it change milk to chocolate?? Not a chance.  So mixing a little truth to cover up a lot of lies is still a lie.

Quote from: Varmit on January 18, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
Long story short...how do we know that the Bible, as it is today, is the Word of God for a certainity?  You can't say that if you read it enough or hear it enough that it becomes true.  In a way, that is like telling a lie over and over again until you believe its true.  I know thats a bad anaology but...still the same principle.

THe bible as it is today, and I am setting a personal limitation on as it is today.  My limitation is the most accurate that is in english form and that would be KJV.  Not the new but the traditional KJV.

I would say use some of the newer ones as study guides.

But what do you think faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God means.

I say it means you cannot have the faith in the bible to come to God unless you hear it.  It doesn't matter how you hear it by reading or by sermons or by whatever method tells you.  All the Gospel is the story of Christ.   First of all if your a unbeliever, you cannot possibly understand the bible except for the 4 gospels and romans.  THe rest is hidden.

So the Word is the Gospel of christ.  And Romans is the mission of christ set out by paul.  To spread the Gospel and to bring those that HEAR to christ.

SO once you hear it, you have been given a seed that will sprout into faith if it grows.  That is not up to me, or anyone else on this earth. That is up to the spirit to grow it.  ONce it has grown, you take the step and start seeking him.  Note i said earlier that Christianity is the only religion that God seeks man instead of man seeking him.  This is how he seeks man.  He sends other beleivers out to spread the word/seed.  he seeks out everyone.  ONly those who are fertile/receptive will grow.  Then they begin to seek God and find him.  They choose at that point to become his or to turn away.

Then once one has come to God, and is his, then understanding of the rest of the Bible comes into play.  The Holy Spirit descentds upon us and provides understanding.

What you say is a contradiction is not one but one of misinterpretation.  YOu have to understand how lwriting was done 2000 years ago.  They wrote in schynecdoche's which is basically a process represented by one word.

Most people don't understand it but the spirit does and thats one reason why  you can read the same passage many times and get so many positive meanings out of it.

Quote from: Varmit on January 18, 2011, 08:34:18 PM
Well, first we can use the behavior of modern day christians as an example.  They say that God spoke to the men who wrote the Bible.  However, if a person does something and says "God told me to" they will call that person crazy depending on the action.  So, in a way, they are changing the story to fit the so called "facts".  Thats not faith, thats the outcome of brainwashing.  True, you could say this about every major religion, and thats my point.  Faith should open a persons eyes, not seal them shut to the truth.
 

Today God does not write or reveal new revelations.  The bible is done it is finished.  There is nothing new to add to it.

QuoteNo doubt.  Thats why I believe a person should take a look at all of them, with an open and unbiased mind.  They all contain elements of truth.

SO lets take hinduism for example.  Which of the over 10,000 gods do you have to serve?  In fact if you serve the wrong god in hindu belief your going to end up pissing off another one of their gods and hellls going tto break loose on ya. 
So your chasing your tail trying to appese thousands of gods.  too much work!   

Bhuddism is a end to nowhere as Budda was not a god, nor a prophet, he was just fat dude that said some kool stuff.  Nothing more.  He never claimed to be a god.

Now Christ said he is God. 

Mohammed was not god nor was he considered god.

QuoteThe mystery is why we as a people continue to fight one another over religion.  When all we have to do is open our eyes to the fact that God is so much more than can be contained in a book.  He is every where, in everything, at all times.  No matter the name that we choose to call Him, Yaweh, Allah, He is the same.  The only difference is how we choose to worship.

And that is what makes the difference.  IF you go at it anyway other than Grace through faith, then your missing the mark.

Srkruzich, I know what you are saying, I've heard it my whole life.  Pretty much all of the information you presented comes from the Bible, the KJV.  Which was edited by man.  Books from the original text were taken out by man.  The point being is that you can't use the Bible to prove that the Bible authentic.  You say the books agree with one another...really...

II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Isreal and Judah.
I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Isreal, and provoked David to number Israel.

So which is it?  Gods anger or Satan?  And theres more...

Acts 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

Matt. 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."

So either Judas used the money or he didn't, which "interpertation" are we to believe?  The very story of Christs conception isn't something that is agreed upon..

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

No sir, the books do not agree with each other. 

Quote from: Varmit on January 19, 2011, 01:43:17 AM
Srkruzich, I know what you are saying, I've heard it my whole life.  Pretty much all of the information you presented comes from the Bible, the KJV.  Which was edited by man.  Books from the original text were taken out by man.  The point being is that you can't use the Bible to prove that the Bible authentic.  You say the books agree with one another...really...

II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Isreal and Judah.
I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Isreal, and provoked David to number Israel.

So which is it?  Gods anger or Satan?  And theres more...

BOTH.  if you notice in Samuel the word he is not capitalized which is always done when referencing God or Christ.  he in this verse And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah., means that Satan moved David.
He is an instrument of God to bring judgment on Israel, and David is but an instrument of Satan to execute the plan. God is bringing about a judgment on Israel for their having been rebellious toward David, using Satan to accomplish His task through David. Just as in Job where Satan is allowed by God to bring trials and afflictions to Job.

QuoteActs 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

Matt. 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."

quite frankly i don't know that they are speaking about judas in Acts. It does not say Judas, it says This man and there is no reference to the story elsewhere about a man dying on a field like that.  Being that Judas was a common name, and if you doubt that, it mentions in a prior verse about Judas the brother of James which is a totally different man from Judas Iscariot.  I don't think that this is the same judas.   It still doesn't make the passage in disagreement with anything else.

QuoteACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

QuoteMAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

No sir, the books do not agree with each other. 

Act 2:29  Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Again your not using the passage but one verse.  If you take verse 29, it explains that he is talking about DAVID being the prophet not joseph.

JUST so tht you know Varmit, the biggest mistake in claiming contradictions is using 1 verse on 1 verse in comparison.  You have to use passage to passage.

And i don't know what version you were using but it took a lot of liberties in its translation.

Quote from: Varmit on January 19, 2011, 01:43:17 AM
The very story of Christs conception isn't something that is agreed upon..

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

No sir, the books do not agree with each other.  

Time being an issue right now, I'll address only one of your examples.  Perhaps the other later.

Lest one read carefully and with understanding your analysis might seem correct.  The reference in Acts is to the human lineage from which Jesus was born(according to the flesh).  That being the line of the Patriarch David.  Simply put, both Joseph & Mary lines run through David, both Mary's family and Joseph's family were of the tribe of Judah.  Jesus' heritage to David legally existed through both.  Mary by blood & Joseph by adoption.  With all the attacks on Jesus by the the Pharisees and Sadducees, there is no record of any of them ever claiming that Jesus had not descended from David.  Moreover, because the genealogy records were available for inspection at the Temple in Jerusalem until the Romans burnt the Temple later in the year 66 C.E. If Jesus were a fraud, they would have been able to easily expose him.

The reference you cite in Matthew expresses the divine part of the equation.  That is Mary had not yet been sexually active with Joseph, yet was miraculously pregnant by the Holy Spirit (according to the Spirit).  It takes 2 to tango.  There's the two.  Mother (by flesh) and Father (by Spirit).  The necessity to bypass Joseph as Jesus' biological father is a spiritual matter as well and goes to the need to avoid inheritance of Adam's nature of sin. But that's another issue.

Comparing those two verses seeking some sort of 'agreement' is apples & oranges folly.  No disagreement in these two verses at all.
Actually they reinforce everything else the Bible says about Jesus' lineage, birth & flesh/divine nature.

I'm always struck by the following admonition:

2Ti 2:15     Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

That 'rightly dividing' part can be a real pain unless the study part is meticulous.

There was also another reason for the adoption by joseph and conception by God.   It was a mini prophacy so to speak.  When he talks about the vine, and grafting the gentiles into the vine.  Joseph was grafting christ into his lineage  but christ was also a direct line through his mother.   It was a symbolic rejoining of the jews and gentiles.   You see technically were all gentiles.  The jews became jews by choice when abraham chose to follow God thereby splitting away from gentiles.  when Christ was born it was a rejoining of both.

Quote from: Varmit on January 17, 2011, 01:03:10 PM
...the other was (and I'm gonna get grilled for this one) a video I saw on youtube (yeah,...I know) called the Esotertic Agenda.

Just to be fair, I watched some of this video.  I also listened to a long interview with Ben Stewart, the film's creator.  

I'm reminded of listening to the real hard core dopeheads in college.  Heady, disjointed, drug induced ramblings of young people with very little life experience, too much psilocybin in their system, and who think they had found nirvana.  Like, wow man!  Mr. Stewart admits a Catholic upbringing and exposure to some of the Mystic Religions by the age of 12.  His musings in the interview demonstrate a clear reading of many topics and a mastery of none.  His accumulation of widely varied conspiracy theories of historical events and multiple religions seems an attempt to make them all relevant, intertwined and rolled into some single, great spiritual revelation.  Very little, if any, personal fact checking with a great reliance on internet sources and way out authors.  For this kid, EVERYTHING is a great conspiracy.  Worldwide mind control.  From religion to science to government to restaurant owners.  It's the infamous 'they' who are controlling the uninformed 'us.' And many of his views seem the result a simple compilations... Nothing much appeared to be original work.  

Do I believe some conspiracies exist, yes.  Am I wary of the Progressive movement and its' influence on government & society?  You betcha.  Do I accept the premise that power corrupts, most definitely.  Was this boogeyman excrement life changing on any level?  No way!  Paranoid schizophrenia is a mental disease.  I suspect  when at home, late at night, Mr. Stewart sees sound, hears color & keeps watch for the Great Pumpkin. I predict his full psychotic break within 2-5 years.  A link to the interview is posted below.  Grab a cup of coffee, make sure your electromagnetic fields are aligned,  and enjoy.

I think Pam had the expression that fits best... ""THAT was stupid."  

Varmit, if you buy this shit in the collective, IMO, you really need to reconsider.  If this drivel changed your life...change it back.
You've been grilled.   ;)

http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2008/05may/RICR-080511-bstewart.mp3
(http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2008/05may/RICR-080511-bstewart.mp3)

Patriot.....Please dont use quotes of mine as parts of your rants...I prefer not to be associated with them.

Well, just to be fair...I'll leave my mind the way it is for now.  I've been down the Bible thumping road and at least to me, it doesn't add up.  Thats not to say that I don't believe in God or Christ, all I'm saying is that there are things in this world that the Bible doesn't touch, cannot explain.  The fact that the Creator has given me a brain and the ability to use it, to ask "why?", to question things that I don't understand and not merely accept them as "Gods will" leads me to believe that He wants me to use it.  I believe that God wants me..all of us..to see that His creation is so much more than we make it.  And that there is so much more to life than what is written in a book that no one knows what the original said. 

You say that there is not a Worldwide conspiracy is to deny the battle taking place between good and evil.  According to the Bible, Satans whole purpose in life is to "win" as many souls as he can from God, no?  And will he not use any method he can to accomplish this?  Isn't that the reason Christians give for trying to ban everything from Rock-N-Roll to alcohol to Sex Ed to weed to books and movies to homosexual marriage?  Isn't that the reason they look down from their highhorse on unwed mothers, scantily clad women, other religions, people who smoke or have the ocasional drink,  and just about anything that questions their belief?  They blame it on Satan? 

So lets see, I could accept other people for who they are and look for the beauty and the divine in all of Gods Creation or only see what I'm told to see??  I think I'll go with the first option.

Yes, that video on youtube did present another perspective, I didn't agree with 100% of everything presented.  But it was not the only thing that has changed my mind when it comes to religion. 
One of the more important things that has influenced my thinking is a sermon I heard about why God allows bad things to happen to good people.  The long and short of it is that we are put through trials and hardships so that Gods grace can be made manifest and that His greatness can shown.  I thought then as I do now that the God represented in that sermon must be awfully twisted.  There is nothing representing grace or greatness in a child suffering a painful diease, or in any person being made to suffer. 

Quote from: Varmit on January 19, 2011, 08:00:51 PM
I thought then as I do now that the God represented in that sermon must be awfully twisted.  There is nothing representing grace or greatness in a child suffering a painful diease, or in any person being made to suffer. 

And since there still disease, suffering & destruction in the world, I guess the god in whom you believe must be just as twisted as you infer the God the Bible is for allowing it to continue.  I sure don't see any real relief from the pains of life in this world.  Of course, it could be that the preacher was wrong or the sermon incomplete.  Which would make your assessment of the God of the Bible an assessment based on weak evidence.

Look, you appear to have created a god and vision of the universe that you are comfortable with.  That's fine by me.  You're more than welcome to your own views on such things.  I would only ask that if you consider Christians to be judgmental, and you believe that their acts of judgment are wrong, that you try to avoid the hypocrisy of being just as judgmental toward them & their beliefs.

Quote from: Varmit on January 19, 2011, 07:48:39 PM
Well, just to be fair...I'll leave my mind the way it is for now.  I've been down the Bible thumping road and at least to me, it doesn't add up.  Thats not to say that I don't believe in God or Christ, all I'm saying is that there are things in this world that the Bible doesn't touch, cannot explain.  The fact that the Creator has given me a brain and the ability to use it, to ask "why?", to question things that I don't understand and not merely accept them as "Gods will" leads me to believe that He wants me to use it.  I believe that God wants me..all of us..to see that His creation is so much more than we make it.  And that there is so much more to life than what is written in a book that no one knows what the original said. 

You say that there is not a Worldwide conspiracy is to deny the battle taking place between good and evil.  According to the Bible, Satans whole purpose in life is to "win" as many souls as he can from God, no?  And will he not use any method he can to accomplish this?  Isn't that the reason Christians give for trying to ban everything from Rock-N-Roll to alcohol to Sex Ed to weed to books and movies to homosexual marriage?  Isn't that the reason they look down from their highhorse on unwed mothers, scantily clad women, other religions, people who smoke or have the ocasional drink,  and just about anything that questions their belief?  They blame it on Satan? 

So lets see, I could accept other people for who they are and look for the beauty and the divine in all of Gods Creation or only see what I'm told to see??  I think I'll go with the first option.

:) Right on

Quote from: Patriot on January 19, 2011, 08:35:56 PM
And since there still disease, suffering & destruction in the world, I guess the god in whom you believe must be just as twisted as you infer the God the Bible is for allowing it to continue.  I sure don't see any real relief from the pains of life in this world.  Of course, it could be that the preacher was wrong or the sermon incomplete.  Which would make your assessment of the God of the Bible an assessment based on weak evidence.

First of all, the God I believe in doesn't need to make His people suffer needlessly just to prove how great He is.  There will always be sufferin and destruction in this world as there will always be those that refuse to accept people for who they are.  You don't see any real relief from the pains in this world??  But, gee whiz Patriot, I thought it was stated pretty darn clear in the Bible, matthew 17:20

"Because of you unbelief: For verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

So according to the Bible if a person of faith asks for healing then they should be healed.  But this isn't the case now is it. 

QuoteLook, you appear to have created a god and vision of the universe that you are comfortable with.  That's fine by me.  You're more than welcome to your own views on such things.  I would only ask that if you consider Christians to be judgmental, and you believe that their acts of judgment are wrong, that you try to avoid the hypocrisy of being just as judgmental toward them & their beliefs.

Seriously??...I have not been judgemental on this thread.  In fact, it was you that started with the judging of others and their beliefs.  It is not that I consider christians to be judgemental, it is that they ARE judgemental.  They expect others to follow their beliefs and their way of thinking yet they can't even follow their own beliefs.  Hell, they can't even tell you what they believe without saying "its in the Bible" or "its Gods will", they can't tell you why they believe.  Telling the truth is not being judgemental.

Quote from: Varmit on January 20, 2011, 08:58:20 AM
First of all, the God I believe in doesn't need to make His people suffer needlessly just to prove how great He is.  There will always be sufferin and destruction in this world as there will always be those that refuse to accept people for who they are.  You don't see any real relief from the pains in this world??  But, gee whiz Patriot, I thought it was stated pretty darn clear in the Bible, matthew 17:20

First of all suffering, sickness and death and all the ills and evils of the world are not of God. He doesn't cause them.  They are a result of sin entering the world through Adam.
Secondly, God allows all of this to happen to teach.  You cannot know happiness unless you experience sadness.  Its just impossible to understand without the opposite.   Everything has a opposite.   So when God allows lets say someone to lose all that they have through illness, then he has them at a point in life where they will listen to him.  Then he can show them a better way.   

I dont normally tell a whole lot of folks about me, but i am going to put a little about what i've been through here as a example. 
2001 i suffered my 6th heart attack and was pretty bad.  I went through surgery, and the doctors foobared the operation. I was left suffering from level 5 angnia pain.  I was totally incapacitated as I could not walk 50 feet without having to sit down and stop the pain in my chest.  They checked me out and since my arteries were not blocked they would not do any surgery to fix it because medicaid would not pay for it.  I couldn't get medicare for 2 years after i was initially diagnosed as disabled.  I was effectively tossed onto the scrap pile as far as doctors were concerned.
i went through all assets i had in the first year paying doctors and lawyers and getting my kids through their last 3 years of highschool so they could have a future. 
In 2006, my mortgage company fleet financial played games with my payments and forced me into forclosure.  Being broke i couldn't afford a lawyer.  So i ended up losing my house in may of 2007.  I lost everything in the house, sold off what i could sell, put the rest in storage and told my ex to come get what she wanted.  I pretty much kept what i could transport on a boat trailer and my pickup which were my tools, and few personal items that i could use.

I moved into a tow trailer in may, had no water, no electricity, nothing up there but me a chainsaw, and my critters.  I lived on my moms 1 acre lot in a town in north GA.  That april, a company came out with a new drug that reduced my angina pain down to a level 1 or 2.  So i could do things around that lot that i couldn't before.  I worked a little every day on cleaning up dead wood and all, and rested after cutting a few pieces of wood. kept it up through the summer.  In august I had been talking with a friend here, and worked out a arrangement to bring my goats to kansas.  i figured they would be better off here with the pastures than they were on my place. I had lots of trees but one problem was that i also had mountain laurel on the place which is poisonous to goats. SO i met them half way to here and they took the goaties.

In september i found this house up for sale in piedmont, and worked a deal out with the owner.  I got the place for what he owed on it and no money down, owner financed.  That just don't happen normally. So october 4th i cancelled my stress test at the docs, and packed up my stuff and headed out to kansas with 300 dollars and my dogs.  I got to chattanooga and had a issue with the transmission.  Pulled into a tranny shop and they fixed it replaced the leaky seal, refilled the transmission and when i went to pay them they said no charge, have a safe trip.

I left there and was sitting at lee highway and i 75.  My mom lived about 5 miles from there. I had a choice to go there and maybe recoup and go back tothe lot or to take a leap of faith and go to kansas.  Well I looked up at God, and told him i was going west and if he didn't want me to go, to close that door.  Well he didn't close the door.  I got here 21 hours later.  It was only 900 miles but as loaded down as i was all i could get was 45 mph out of my pickup truck.

Got here and got moved in, electric was on, water was on, phone was in, thanks to folks here, and a week later i went into the doctors office to get a new cardiologist.  We went over what my problems were and he did some tests on me that day.  he came back and told me he was putting me in the hospital.  I went in for another bypass surgery.  I was living on that land all summer with three arteries blocked. 100%, 99% and 85% blockage.  How i survived was only because he intervened.

I had that surgery and while it didn't fix me completely or even half way, it did stop the angina pain totally!   I can tell you after going through 6 1/2 years of constant pain, i was ESTATIC with what had been done! 

At any rate, Since then, i have relied on his supplying my every need.  He hasn't let me down.  I have what i need and sometimes a little more but he does keep me close to him by not allowing me to fully heal. 

In my ailments, he can keep my eyes on him and not on my own abilities. Thats why he allows suffering.  When  things are good, and you are able to do it all by yourself, you tend to have no need for God.  When you are not 100%, then you look toward him to supply the needs you have. 

Quote"Because of you unbelief: For verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

This is a measure of faith.  He was telling us that no one has that much faith. IF you did, you could move mountains.

QuoteSo according to the Bible if a person of faith asks for healing then they should be healed.  But this isn't the case now is it.

Now that will depend on why you want it.  Look, a Sheppard   will herd his sheep through the fields and valleys.  He will correct and pull back the ones who stray away from the herd, and if that one sheep keeps wandering or running from the sheppard he will break its leg.  He will then carry it til it is healed.  The reason for that is that his carrying that sheep makes a bond with the sheppard where that sheep will come to him when called instead of running.  Same thing as the sickness.  You won't bond as close if everything is going fine.  Its just human nature.

QuoteHell, they can't even tell you what they believe without saying "its in the Bible" or "its Gods will", they can't tell you why they believe.  Telling the truth is not being judgemental.

I believe what i believe cause God told me its true. 

Amen!

Quote from: Varmit on January 20, 2011, 08:58:20 AM
First of all, the God I believe in doesn't need to make His people suffer needlessly just to prove how great He is.  There will always be sufferin and destruction in this world as there will always be those that refuse to accept people for who they are.  You don't see any real relief from the pains in this world??  But, gee whiz Patriot, I thought it was stated pretty darn clear in the Bible, matthew 17:20

"Because of you unbelief: For verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

So according to the Bible if a person of faith asks for healing then they should be healed.  But this isn't the case now is it. 

1.  A truly sovereign creator can do whatever He wishes with that which He creates.  To try and place oneself beyond the reach and will of a sovereign creator would be trying to define one's creator and seems the height of foolishness.
2.  I don't think it was I who attributed suffering in this world to God.
3. And again, you fail to provide complete disclosure to your citations.  What is it with people who must find a single verse in the Bible, isolate it, and try to use it as a proof for their own unbelief.  I'll let you try to see where you missed the lesson in the very citation you chose.  Hint:  Read for context and meaning.  Don't isolate single verses. 

Quote from: Varmit on January 20, 2011, 08:58:20 AM
Seriously??...I have not been judgemental on this thread.  In fact, it was you that started with the judging of others and their beliefs.  It is not that I consider christians to be judgemental, it is that they ARE judgemental.  They expect others to follow their beliefs and their way of thinking yet they can't even follow their own beliefs.  Hell, they can't even tell you what they believe without saying "its in the Bible" or "its Gods will", they can't tell you why they believe.  Telling the truth is not being judgemental.

Yes, seriously.  Everything you've posted in the last couple of days is in defense of your judgment that 1) the Bible is unreliable, 2) Christians never follow their stated beliefs, 3) Your way is the better way.  Give me a break, you make judgments every step of the way.  Just as I've made judgments that 1) you're knowledge of the Bible, Christianity & its' history are limited, narrow & based on selective Bible reading & a lot of questionable secular information, 2)  that you choose and try to elevate the attributes of an extra-Biblical god of your own making, 3) that your concept of absolute sovereignty is weak in that it denies the true power of an absolute sovereign, 4) and as a result you similar in many ways to the case regarding Mormonism that started this thread, i.e. among those whose beliefs are antithetical to Biblical Christianity and whose end is to seek a path to become a self contained god in some way.  And all that is fine by me.  You are right in one thing, God does allow free choice.  Many paths are set before us in this life and we must each evaluate and choose our own.  I've chosen mine, you've chosen yours.  Whatever the end of your path may be, have a good journey. 

Quote from: srkruzich on January 20, 2011, 09:37:32 AM
You won't bond as close if everything is going fine.  Its just human nature.

I believe what i believe cause God told me its true. 

Thank you Steve, you may never know the timeliness of your telling of that story. 

It would seem that God didn't just tell you His truth, He showed you in no uncertain terms!  Many of us have been offered wisdom regarding God through extremes in our circumstances.  I think you know a couple of mine.  Some judge their circumstance, yield, and find the God of the Bible at work in the wildest ways, others judge their circumstance, stand in themselves and seek elsewhere.  Some see His hand in such things, others don't or simply refuse and ultimately suffer even more for it.  Even that fact was foretold to us in the Bible several thousand years ago. It's never what we suffer under the headship of God, it's what we do as a result of it.

We often look at other's suffering and say, "Thank God it's not me." or " I must be doing something right."
If we ever come to know and accept who we really are before an omnipotent sovereign God, I think we learn to say, "Why not me." and, "But for the grace of God, there go I."

Thanks again.

Patriot, I can't see any reason to disagree with anything that you're saying here.  

There was a time in this country when most Americans were Bible-believing folks,
but that's not the way it is these days.

 Varmit........you cant find your Path to God this way EXCEPT in one way...and that is that discussions like this help you to weed out what DOESNT ring true to you. "True believers"  ::) will always try to browbeat you back into line. Personally I am grateful for the browbeaters because they cemented my determination to seek God for myself instead of puttin my spirituality in the hands of people I didn't exactly trust on some level. I discovered preachers, rabbis, priests, etc. while some have the best intentions also owe their allegience to their Church which fundamentally makes them unreliable sources. The Church is of man, the Bible was rewritten and edited by man. Whenever you get Man involved it is his/her nature to try to "arrange" things so they benefit what they want at that point in time. To truly find God you have to go inside yourself and remember and listen....then you will be led to the things you need to learn and be surprised by what you already know but forgot.

Srk....I respect your story :)

Quote from: redcliffsw on January 20, 2011, 10:48:32 AM
There was a time in this country when most Americans were Bible-believing folks,
but that's not the way it is these days.

We were warned of that a long time ago, as well.  For as dismissed as the Bible is, it's Amazing how accurately the Bible predicted such things.

2Ti 4:3     For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Quote from: srkruzich on January 20, 2011, 09:37:32 AM
First of all suffering, sickness and death and all the ills and evils of the world are not of God. He doesn't cause them.  They are a result of sin entering the world through Adam.

Wrong.  According to the Bible all things work together for the glory of God.  Also, acording to the Bible God created this world and everything in it, including suffering, sickness, and death.  God created sin by saying that "this is a sin" or " that is a sin".  Wasn't it God that cast Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels out of Heaven and onto this world?  He could've just sent them straight to hell but He didn't.  He could've kept this world a paradise and His greatness acknowledged without the suffering, but He didn't.  

QuoteSecondly, God allows all of this to happen to teach.  You cannot know happiness unless you experience sadness.  Its just impossible to understand without the opposite.   Everything has a opposite.   So when God allows lets say someone to lose all that they have through illness, then he has them at a point in life where they will listen to him.  Then he can show them a better way.   

Again wrong.  A person doesn't have to expirence sadness to know happiness.  Just as a child doesn't have to expirence hate to know love.  The God of the Bible is supposed to be a loving, kind, and Just God.  He is supposed to be a Father.  What kind of Father would allow His child to fall and break his leg before telling him "Don't climb out on that weak limb, it will break and you'll fall."?  Or allow His child to suffer needlessly just so He can come to the rescue and be looked at as the great hero?

 

Quote from: Patriot on January 20, 2011, 10:05:43 AM
3. And again, you fail to provide complete disclosure to your citations.  What is it with people who must find a single verse in the Bible, isolate it, and try to use it as a proof for their own unbelief.  I'll let you try to see where you missed the lesson in the very citation you chose.  Hint:  Read for context and meaning.  Don't isolate single verses.  

I didn't isolate a single verse.  In fact that verse has everything to do with what I said earlier.  I.E. Christ said that even the smallest amount of faith can move mountains, and thru the grace that comes with that faith nothing is impossible.  What is about people who say the Bible is the very Word of God, yet deny Him the power to do what He says He will do in that very book.

QuoteYes, seriously.  Everything you've posted in the last couple of days is in defense of your judgment that 1) the Bible is unreliable, 2) Christians never follow their stated beliefs, 3) Your way is the better way.  Give me a break, you make judgments every step of the way.  Just as I've made judgments that 1) you're knowledge of the Bible, Christianity & its' history are limited, narrow & based on selective Bible reading & a lot of questionable secular information, 2)  that you choose and try to elevate the attributes of an extra-Biblical god of your own making, 3) that your concept of absolute sovereignty is weak in that it denies the true power of an absolute sovereign, 4) and as a result you similar in many ways to the case regarding Mormonism that started this thread, i.e. among those whose beliefs are antithetical to Biblical Christianity and whose end is to seek a path to become a self contained god in some way.  And all that is fine by me.  You are right in one thing, God does allow free choice.  Many paths are set before us in this life and we must each evaluate and choose our own.  I've chosen mine, you've chosen yours.  Whatever the end of your path may be, have a good journey.

1.  It is.
2.  They never do.  
3.  Better in only that it is truer.

1.  I never really got into the History of Christanity.  I could, but I don't think this is the thread for it.  That would be better placed in a Horror story type of thread.
2.  I'm not making any god up.  I know that the Creator exists.  The diversity of life on this planet, hell, the universe is not a product of chance.
3.  Again, all I'm doing is holding the God of the Bible to His word.  If He says that He'll do something I expect Him to do it.
4.  Nope. All I'm doing is saying that I'm sick and tired of "christians" saying that they have a monopoly on Gods mind, will, and heart.  Espcially when they can't even agree among themselves what He is saying in a book they all claim to have ultimate understanding over.

Same to you.

Red,  when was that time?  Was it before or after the genocidal war against the indians?  Or perhaps it was during the time that whole races were either enslaved or extorted for labor?  Or was it when entire cultures were treated as inferior and not afforded the same privledges that the bible believing majority held to be God given and inalienable?  Or was it when the bible believing majority held entire cultures responsible for the atrocities commited by just a few?

Pam,
Exactly.  And as for "True believers" I know...I used to be one. ;)

Quote from: Patriot on January 20, 2011, 10:59:48 AM
We were warned of that a long time ago, as well.  For as dismissed as the Bible is, it's Amazing how accurately the Bible predicted such things.

2Ti 4:3     For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Well, that certainly explains the growing "church" movement. ::)

And someone mentioned 'browbeating?'  If defending one's belief is browbeating, then I would suggest a clear review of the last couple of posts.  Good grief, the hypocrisy.   Perhaps the 'I'm ok with your choices' slipped by.  Let's try again, I think it's folly, but I'm ok with letting those who reject the Bible believe what ever they choose.

Whatever dude, my last post was just a bit humor.

Oh, and before you talk about other people being hyprocriets, or judgemental you might want to take a look at Reply #37 on Page 4 of this thread.

That being said, I'm done with this. Have a good one.

Quote from: Varmit on January 20, 2011, 11:39:58 AM
Whatever dude, my last post was just a bit humor.

Oh, and before you talk about other people being hyprocriets, or judgemental you might want to take a look at Reply #37 on Page 4 of this thread.

That being said, I'm done with this. Have a good one.

I'm a tad worn with it as well. There are, however, a lot of people reading this thread, for better or worse.  I suspect a lot of questions may have arisen in some folks minds.  In particular, the issue of judgmentalism seems to recur.  To the 'non-combatants' here, I say judging is expected.  Judging rightly is commanded.  Don't hang up yet.  What follows is not for my defense, but for your liberty.

From a blog at JackHammer.wordpress.com comes a good review:

...Most of Scripture requires application and to make the right application certain truths must exist in the real world.  To abstain from corrupt communication, you've got to judge what bad words are with no help in the Bible.  Regarding dress, Paul ordered the believing women of Corinth to wear their head coverings (1 Cor 11:3-16) without any previous verse of Scripture to authorize that specific practice.  If women didn't wear the head coverings, couldn't they just warn fellow church members not to participate in the respectable sin of judgmentalism?...

...Here's what has happened.  Rationalism in the 19th century placed truth under human reasoning.  In the 20th century, every person's opinion stands as his own authority.  The only permissible dogma is tolerance.  That philosophy now is accepted by many if not most churches...

...To be effective, Scripture must be applied.  To apply God's Word, Christians must judge.  They make decisions based on biblical principles.  The most prominent present attack on the Bible in evangelicalism and fundamentalism is against its application.   The attack says, "Don't judge."  It means, "You can't know how the Bible applies."  God's Word then loses its authority in many practices of churches and their members.


Do I make judgments?  Absolutely.  And I make no apology for it. 
You gasp and agree that I'm judgmental because you know that Jesus said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."  That single statement, taken out of context has become a commandment in many folks mind.  How about we read the entire text:

Mat 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

What is it that Christ says regarding making judgments?  Now that you can see all the text, I'll let you be the judge.

Quote from: Varmit on January 20, 2011, 11:01:28 AM
Wrong.  According to the Bible all things work together for the glory of God.

Ok, I never said God cannot use everything, but he didn't create sin.  Sin entered the world through Adam, not God.


 

QuoteAlso, acording to the Bible God created this world and everything in it, including suffering, sickness, and death.

Show me where he created it.  Proof please.  :)  These are the consequences of sin. Of which Entered the world through Adam.

QuoteGod created sin by saying that "this is a sin" or " that is a sin".  

Now how did he create sin.  What was the first sin?  DID he say that eating of the tree was a sin, NOT AT ALL.  HE SAID
   But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
He never defined a sin. What was the original sin? Was it eating of the tree??  Was it hiding from God, or was it choosing to disobey God. What was the source of th disobedience?  Wasn't it PRIDE?  Remember in the discussion between Adam and eve:  And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Now that is pride.  Thats the sin.  God didn't create it, it was Adams choice to obey or disobey.

QuoteWasn't it God that cast Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels out of Heaven and onto this world?  He could've just sent them straight to hell but He didn't.  He could've kept this world a paradise and His greatness acknowledged without the suffering, but He didn't.  

Nowhere in the bible will you find that God cast lucifer and a 1/3 of his angels out of heaven. It doesn't exist.  That fable came from Milton, paridise lost. 

QuoteAgain wrong.  A person doesn't have to expirence sadness to know happiness.

How do you know?  You really cannot prove that statement unless you take a child and never ever let them experience sadness, or even happiness. 

QuoteJust as a child doesn't have to expirence hate to know love.

I have seen children and worked with children that never knew love until they were rescued from their hate filled life.  I have seen the eyes and some of them are empty inside, their eyes are lifeless, no hope no love no desire for anything but an end to it.  And in that state, i have seen them act like a frightened animal when love has  been shown to them cause it is so foreign to them that they just think its more hate.

QuoteThe God of the Bible is supposed to be a loving, kind, and Just God.

He is also a fierce and at times a righteously angry God.   Your putting him in a box. 

QuoteHe is supposed to be a Father.  What kind of Father would allow His child to fall and break his leg before telling him "Don't climb out on that weak limb, it will break and you'll fall."?

I think he has warned everyone.  What is it you don't think he warned someone about.

QuoteOr allow His child to suffer needlessly just so He can come to the rescue and be looked at as the great hero?

I'll tell ya what, As a father i have warned my kids, and they did it anyway and got hurt.  Physically, emotionally and life.
I can help fix a lot of things but they still have to face the consequences of their actions.  God is no different. We go against his will, then we are facing our own cosequences.  Now he does rescue us, but still he doesn't completely erase the consequences.


 

QuoteI didn't isolate a single verse.  In fact that verse has everything to do with what I said earlier.  I.E. Christ said that even the smallest amount of faith can move mountains, and thru the grace that comes with that faith nothing is impossible.

HE was speaking to the disciples when he said this, because they could not understand why they coul dnot cast out the demon in the child.  HE just told them why.  Now its important to know that they ahve spent many years with him, working with him side by side and seeing what he did. He told them they had the power to do the same.  They just could not bring themselves to believe they could.  This is a human limitation.  One of the problems is that the faith was not quite understood.  It was later on when the HS descended upon the disciples that they understood the message he gave. They were then able to go out and heal in his name.

QuoteWhat is about people who say the Bible is the very Word of God, yet deny Him the power to do what He says He will do in that very book.

LOL well. Thats human condition.

QuoteAgain, all I'm doing is holding the God of the Bible to His word.  If He says that He'll do something I expect Him to do it.

What do you want him to do?  He does things for me all the time.

Either God created everything or he didn't, you can't have it both ways.  God created the serpent,  that fooled the woman, that ate from the tree, that grew in the garden that God made.  There would have been no sin if the condition of not eating thereof wasn't put into place. 

Again, God created everything.  Including the viruses that causes sickness, or the birth defects, or the conditions that cause drought which cause famines.  Sicknesses are a consequence of sin??...What sin is so great to make a child suffer from leukimia or cancer? 

And no, I didn't get anything from Milton,

Revelation 12:4, 7-9

It does exist.

A child doesn't have to expirence hate to know that his mother loves him.  Thats not to say that some do expirence hate but it is not a requirement. 
I'm not putting God in a box.  Just the oppisite. 

Look, believe what you want.  But I'm done arguing this.  You've missed the entire point I was getting at...Hell, I've gotten away from what I was trying to say.  Either way have a good one.

Quote from: Varmit on January 20, 2011, 02:27:58 PM
Either God created everything or he didn't, you can't have it both ways.  God created the serpent,  that fooled the woman, that ate from the tree, that grew in the garden that God made.  There would have been no sin if the condition of not eating thereof wasn't put into place. 

Conditions are put in place all the time.  Fire is one condition. Don't stick your hand in it or you will be burned.  By sticking ones hand in it, it is a direct choice by that individual to do so and the consequences of that action must be borne. 
God said do not eat of the tree.   The condition was Death.  they were WARNED!  You said earlier God never warns people.  THey were given a choice. They chose to do what they thought was best.  Not what God said for them to do.  That condition is pride!
So no God did not create sin.  Now did the serpent sin?  No, not against God but it could be argued against Man. SInce Angels, as well as animals are subject to mans authority, It could be said they sinned against Adam.  Thats a lot deeper discussion than i really wish ot get into right now.

QuoteAgain, God created everything.  Including the viruses that causes sickness, or the birth defects, or the conditions that cause drought which cause famines.  Sicknesses are a consequence of sin??...What sin is so great to make a child suffer from leukimia or cancer? 

Yes Sickness is the result of sin.  Remember what God said.
The day that you eat you shall surely die.  At that moment death and sickness entered the world. What is sickness or death? The breaking down of bodies. Scientifically, our bodies started aging.  Cells dying, newer cells not being the same as the originals, offspring not carrying a pure dna since it was watered down through joining of two beings.
WE know scientifically that we as a society are screwed basically on DNA makeups. they are so messed up over time that we are seeing more sickness more defects and more deaths.


[qutoe]And no, I didn't get anything from Milton, [/quote]
Well that story you posted was directly from miltons paradise lost. 


Revelation 12:4, 7-9

DUDE this hasn't even happened!  THIS happens after armageddon. That has not happened yet. So no God has NOT cast out satan and the angels.  IN fact satan and angels go into heaven at will.  Just take a look at Job.  Satan went up to God and made a bet with him.  So he isn't cast out.

Whatever..lol...

Good grief.  And again, for the less prepared....

Revelation Chapter 12 should not be perverted into a past event effecting mankind in history.  It refers to end times events.  One simply can not pick & choose Bible text out of context and make it fit a personal narrative.  Look at the whole context....

Rev 12:1  ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

For a good commentary, go to:  http://www.gotquestions.org/Revelation-chapter-12.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Revelation-chapter-12.html)

Suffice to say Revelation 12 has nothing to do with the devil being sent by God in some past time to bring death & such to mankind.

On the subject of the adulteration & misuse of Bible scripture to fit a personal agenda, maybe it's time to consider the author of such methods.  Go look at Matthew Chapter 4 verses 1-11 where Satan uses the very words of God to tempt Christ.  Perhaps the reader should draw their own conclusions about the out of context use of Biblical Scripture.

Ok...so Satan was on Earth to tempt Christ even though he hadn't been cast out of heaven yet.  And since Satan hasn't been cast out yet he has no influence on earth, but he does, because all sin is a product of humans following satans influence even though hes not here yet but he is.  Because this war hasn't happend yet so satan is still in heaven even though he is here....


Good grief, no wonder there are so many different types of christian churches, cant' even get their story straight. 

As Regan said, "There you go again."

Varmit, you seem to assume that the differences between various denominations are because of the kind of convoluted interpretations of Biblical doctrine that you try to present here.  Oh that it were that simple.  Most of Christiandom are unified on matters of critical doctrine (The Godhead, Divinity of Jesus, Fall of man, Life/Death & Resurrection of Christ, Redemption & Salvation by grace through faith, etc.).  Most carefully study scripture and take it as a whole and rather than an assembly of isolated disconnected statements.  By doing so, they are able to agree on vast matters of significance.  Their disagreements are generally accepted to be in areas that most likely won't affect the ends of personal salvation.

Where those kinds of disagreement may exist, it is very likely that some improper assessment of doctrine or interpretation has taken place.  In those cases, it is also likely that only one or the other is correct.  It is truth that if someone standing on earth releases a rock from their hand, it will fall to the ground at the rate of 32 feet/second squared.  Given equal circumstances, all other statement about what happens to the rock are false.  There is only one truth.  There was a time, however that the truth about the rate of fall was generally unknown.  Only diligent study revealed the fact.  And before the fact was known & accepted, denying the actual rate would have been no less wrong.  Luther saw much folly in some Catholic interpretation of doctrine.  The reformation, if nothing else, led to more in depth study and clarification of doctrine. 

Unlike some folks, diligent students of Biblical teachings try not to make doctrines fit their personal idea of what God should be.  Rather they come to accept scripture as God breathed and determine to let scripture define who & what God is.  Sucks to have to submit to some authority outside oneself, but c'est la vie.  Are the students always correct in their findings, no.  Do they just toss the entire pursuit of understanding and trot off on some other belief?  Some do. Some don't.  I believe that diligence & persistence eventually pay off for Christians who keep studying.  An outcome that is also promised in the Bible.  Sometimes it's the quality of the student and not the quality of the lesson or text.

So you just keep on scripture twistin' and I'll continue to grow in seeing that, for those who diligently study & apply Biblical principals in their lives, there really aren't any clear conflicts in scripture and the God of the Bible is and does exactly as the entirety of scripture says.

I've said, more than once, that I'm more than willing to accept you and let you have your beliefs.  Are you as willing to let those here who differ with you have theirs?  Or do you wish to continue to debate?  You've said at least twice now you were done with this thread.  Ready, presumably to be gone from it.  Are you a man of your word as you say you expect Christians to be?

Make no mistake I'm done debating this topic.  But Srkurich broke down what I had posted and I wanted to answer that.  Ya'll can spout off all you want about '...its the student not the text' whatever.  Believe what you want, thats fine by me.  But if you insult my character I'm coming back at you (as I would expect anyone to do).  I did not comment on this thread to debate the validity of christian belife rather their constant pursuit of others that don't share the same belief.

Quote from: Varmit on January 20, 2011, 04:29:11 PM
Ok...so Satan was on Earth to tempt Christ even though he hadn't been cast out of heaven yet.  And since Satan hasn't been cast out yet he has no influence on earth, but he does, because all sin is a product of humans following satans influence even though hes not here yet but he is.  Because this war hasn't happend yet so satan is still in heaven even though he is here....


Good grief, no wonder there are so many different types of christian churches, cant' even get their story straight. 

Satan had the ability to go to earth as well as he has complete access to heaven.  He was a cheribum i believe.   Guarded the throne of God.  

I'm not for sure on this because I am not a practicing Christian. I believe in God and Heaven and Hell and the Lord Jesus Christ but if I remember right as a child, that in the very first book of Genesis, wasn't it Satan as a serpent tempting Eve to eat from forbidden fruit of knowledge?  Which would mean that he was here in the very beginning and already cast out from Heaven? And even though Jesus, the son of God here on Earth in human form, flesh and blood, I believe he could have the same temptations as any human. And another thing Varmit, did I miss something? I've not been watching Fox News lately, or CNN or MSNBC or Headline News or Nightline, and I may have missed the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, but has the book of Revelations already happened? I was not informed. It may be in the beginning stages if we look hard enough for the signs. But to read what you have written, it sounds as though it has already happened. If you'd like to discuss this more, give me a call. My fingers are sore from typing but I still reserve one for you.---Robert

  Varmit.........theres too much noise here for what you are tryin to do for yourself. Take it from somebody who has been there done that. Not here but other places.........the best advice anybody can give a person who is questioning is get yourself a Bible.......and any other Books of faith you can think of...be it Buddhist.....Jewish....Native......even Pagan......study them all........talk to intelligent people who have no agenda, that you can trust.....go out in Nature and LISTEN.......go into yourself and LISTEN......most things that are true you already know..you were born knowing them.....you just have to be still enough to remember. I dont know why I'm doin this I guess its cause I HAVE been there done that and mostly on my own with a few friends I made on the journey.....If you listen the Creator WILL lead you where you need to go.

I hear you Pam, I just got caught up in the B.S. 

Robert, I'd tell you what to do with that "reserved" finger, but it probably already busy.