Amazing.... just amazing that this man who was protecting his family and home was arrested but not even an investigation into the gang members??
Things like this make me go totally insane with anger...
And that Stupid anchorman ~~I would have wanted to slap him!! I know it isn't the "nice" thing to want to happen ( But who said I was nice) .. but to all those who question why someone needs to defend themselves and their property needs to have a about 20 'mean from hell' gang members just show up and start threatening them.. Wonder what they would do then... Ya think that MAYBE they might step down off their Liberal "Oh my god, you had a gun" step stool??
NEW YORK - A homeowner who grabbed a rifle from his house and fired warning shots after bing threatened by gang members on his lawn faces criminal charges.
George Grier, 30, fired rounds into the ground from a rifle after a large group of men gathered outside his Long Island home Sunday evening. No one was hurt. Grier believes the men are in the MS-13 gang.
Grier and his lawyer appeared on Thursday's Good Day New York. He said that he was leaving his house to drive his cousin home. When he went outside he says three men were arguing in his yard. He says he asked them to leave because his wife and children were sleeping inside of the home.
Grier says the men blocked his car so he couldn't leave the driveway. Grier says they got out of the car and the men surrounded his cousin so he ran into the house. He told his wife to call 911 and he says he grabbed his gun.
Grier says that when he went out with the gun to check on his cousin one of the men noticed the weapon and started threatening to kill Grier and his family.
Other men apparently started forming around the property and the man yelling threats continued to advance on the house. That's when Grier says he fired four warning shots into the grass.
Grier says, "I was in fear for my life and my family."
Grier is black; the men on his lawn were Hispanic, according to police and his sister, who said members of their family had demonstrated in support of White.
Grier was arrested on reckless endangerment and weapons possession charges. He was released on $10,000 bond after his arraignment Monday, his sister said.
He says the weapon is a semi-automatic rifle with a pistol grip. He says media accounts that he had an assault rifle are inaccurate. The gun does not require a permit in the state of New York.http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/good_day_ny/Man-Fires-At-Gang-On-His-Lawn-Uniondale-20100909
My goodness! If I was about to leave my house and men were arguing on my front lawn I'd have gone right back in the house with out saying a word and called the police! No way would I have even tried to leave, especially if I had family members asleep inside. I'm just not a confrontational person I guess.
It all depends on how the gun laws are where you live. My guess is he could have defended himself in the house. The new law in Missouri would cover us on our property or any property we are in charge of but gives a lot more latitude. Got to know your gun laws.
His cousin was outside.. surrounded by gang members.. and he had already had a cousin killed by this gang..
His wife called 911... but response time is not exactly speedy when you need it. He was coming home and they were in his yard.. and then when he looked out the window and could no longer see his cousin.. he then stepped out.. Obviously the police weren't going to go anything to the gang if they had of got there.. >:(
They haven't even questioned any of them. ( afraid I imagine)
Its a hell of a shame when a person can be threatened to be killed on their own property and you can't do anything about it..and if you do..you get arrested while the scum bag gang members have free reign..
And people wonder why there are vigilantes... ::)
There was a famous case of vigilante justice in Skidmore, Missouri, in the 1970's. Townspeople planned a shooting of the town bully and thief who was going around threatening to kill people. He had gone to court several times but the judge let him out one more time. On the day of the murder he had gone to a bar with his wife. People pulled the wife out of the way as he was shot dead in his truck. No one ever told who killed the man.
Even the law was afraid of Ken McElroy, a Skidmore, Missouri, rural resident. He literally terrorized the town by stealing and breaking in at night and then terrorizing anyone who who tried to press charges. He managed to get off each time someone did have enough courage to charge him. The final straw as far as the local townspeople were concerned was when he killed the local grocer in revenge.
He was gunned down outside a local bar by town vigilantes in July 1981. Almost forty people stuck together moving down the street against him when the shots were fired. No one would tell state investigators who did it.
The event made Sixty Minutes and there was a book written about it. It seems also there was a fictional TV movie made.
Waldo diid he actually kill the grocer ? To the best of my memory he brandished a gun and threatened the grocer who was a much older man.
You are right, your memory is better than mine.
He shot the grocery store owner in his store the previous year with, I think, a shotgun and was convicted of attempted murder. However, his lawyer successfully appealed the conviction. After his successful appeal he had made threats he was going to finish the job.
The shooting of the grocer was one of more than a score of charges brought against him for rape, arson, cattle/hog rustling, and burglary that he had been able to get out with the help of his lawyer.
There was one witness to the vigilante action. She was McElroy's wife and was seated next to him when the crowd gathered and shots were fired. But her account of the event could never be proven.
I met and talked to Ken Rex's wife at one time long ago. I believe he had two sons by her. They moved to St. Joseph after his death. There is an interesting book authored by her lawyer who came from Kansas City. I remember a passage from the book in which he called St. Joseph a feudal city. He observed that there was a small group of really weathy citizens who ruled and many poor people who were controlled by the wealthy. Did not agree with his description !
Waldo,
I read that book several years ago and it was a good book. Just couldn't beleive that there wasn't at least one rat fink in the whole town. Maybe someone older than me, like Waldo or Frank will remember a deal similar that happened in Longton , back in boot legging days. Maybe Greatguns mother has memories of it because she and my Dad's brother had a slight role in it.There was an Indian from Blackwell, Ok. that moved here. His name was Andy Williams. By what I heard Andy was a swell guy as long as he wasn't drinking or you wanted a good fight.they say he was one tuff son of a gun. One night he was supposedly gunning for some one and the city marshall was so scared of him, that he hid in a door way and when Andy passed the door the marshall stepped out and shot Andy in the back of the head. The cops name was either Ervin or Erdman. I was told the cops "cheese slid off it's cracker" after the shooting. Can you fill in the blanks on this Waldo ?
Jarhead the notes I have show that the Town Marshal was the one killed. Go to http://www.odmp.org/officer/16912-city-marshal-albert-h.-erdman
Howard Courant, March 2, 1933
Night Marshall Killed
Early Tuesday morning the body of Albert Erdman, age 60, was found lying in the street at Longton. He had been shot through the body and evidently had died instantly. Examination of the surroundings indicated that the shot had been fired by someone who laid in wait between two buildings and shot as the marshal walked by. The marshal had two guns on him, but had not fired a shot. An empty shell from the killer's gun was picked up, and may prove a clue in the mystery. Citizens heard three shots fired and believe two were from a rifle and one from a shotgun.
The case is surrounded by mystery as no robbery was committed and there would appear to be no motive or cause for the cold-blooded killing.
Erdman was 60 years of age, a widower, and the son of Albert Erdman, a pioneer of Elk Falls neighborhood. He had resigned as marshal and that was to have been his last night on duty.
Submitted by L. Morgan
I had heard about a Longton lawman having been been gunned down, but was not aware of the details.
Reading the book about McElroy and Skidmore, one heavily sympathizes with the townspeople and forms a deep dislike for McElroy. And, one gets a feeling of relief for those townspeople after McElroy is gunned down. At least I did. He shot that elderly grocer in the face. The reason? The grocer had caught or accused one of McElroy's many children for stealing candy.
Sixty minutes tried to convince someone, anyone, to talk but were unsuccessful. And, to this day, no one has been charged.
However, years later, the wife sued the sheriff, the town of Skidmore, and one of the individuals who she said shot her husband. The suit was for wrongful death. The issue was settled out of court to "avoid a costly legal battle." The county wound up paying 12,600, Skidmore paid 2,000, and the alleged assailant paid $3,000.
As I recall, the sheriff was standing by up the street after "warning" the participates that he could not condone or be a part of mob justice. It just happened the citizens were attending a meeting in a store on main street to discuss what to do about McElroy. The sheriff attended. As the meeting progressed, someone came running in saying that McElroy was in town. The group, except for the sheriff, left to confront him.
Frank, so the cop killed was Erdman, so the one that shot Andy Williams was Ervin. Those killings are not related. Erdman was found dead between what is now the Senior Citizens Center and the little building south of it on the east side of main street. Andy was shot and killed on the west side of main street and another block south. Not sure but I think it was in the doorway of the Brighton Hall is where the law laid in wait and Andy was heading to the Hasting's Billiard Parlor south of it. I have a partial newspaper account of it somewhere, if I can find it. Back in the mid 60's I the back of Albert Molones bar were 2 -5 gallon buckets of cement with a pipe in them. They said it was Andy's barbells. Bonnie Mustoe, where you at ? I bet you could help me out here.
Jarhead, give me an idea about when this happened and the next time I go to Topeka to look at old newspapers I will look for the article and copy what ever I find on it.
Frank,
I found the nice little book that Ruth Royse put together when she taught a class on Longton history in 1993. It has a partial account of the Andy Williams shooting but no date. I'm sending it to you and Waldo and Waldo might think it's worthy of being posted in the good old days thread. I'm sure greatguns mom can tell us when this all happened because her brother Chelsea, my uncle, was good friends with Andy
To the best of my Mother's memory, she would guess it to have been about 1940. It was before her brother went to the service, but not to long before he went and she said it was before she went to California in 1941. That is the best I can do for you.
It was in the late 40's ---I think 1946 or 47.
I do remember it. Andy Williams was a really nice guy.
Mother must have been wrong. She was sure it was before her or Chelsea either one was married.
Here is the article furnished by Jarhead.
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad256/waldoegray/Andywilliams.jpg)
"Bonnie Mustoe, where you at ? I bet you could help me out here." I've been away for a couple of weeks! I just stumbled onto your "inquiry," and, here is the report, as it was reported in the "Longton News."
ANDREW J. WILLIAMS KILLED BY MARSHAL
(Article written by Lawrence (Bunny) Clark for the Longton News, 1949)
"Beat up several men and threatened Fischer with Shot gun."
(Editor's note on death of Andrew J. "Andy" Williams) It's strange to us that one who on occasions could be so likeable, so full of pep, so enjoyable to talk to – and then, on other occasions could be so cruel, so full of wrought-up emotions that he wanted to destroy or kill his fellow man, as was Andrew J. Williams in his different moods as we have learned to know the deceased. We have heard of Williams "explosive" emotions, but have never been present to witness them. Just a few weeks ago, he told us of the hunting trip to Canada last fall that he and others of Elk and Cowley County enjoyed. Then, a few days later, he demonstrated one of his bad tempered (shall we say rages, or fits) and shot a pistol on the main street of Longton several times and caused a lot of unpleasantness at the "Kitt's Café." One with the physical strength of Mr. Williams and one with his intelligence could have been a great character and asset to his community, a man to look up to and all respect, if he could have controlled himself. He certainly was not lazy, or close, when it came to helping others.
He caused the great majority of the people of Longton and community to fear him, because of his strength and his "temper blasts" while at the same time, making many friends who liked him. These are only thoughts of the editor, which can be crossed off in a lot of ways in the following article given by witnesses, and also those accosted or abused. We now learn that when Andrew J. Williams went to the Longton Hotel on Monday evening of this week to get his guns, he made the following statement to Mrs. Rothgeb: "How much do I owe here? I want to pay it tonight." The bill was less than $25.00. A check could not be found, so "Andy" wrote on a piece of paper an I. O. U. to Mrs. Rothgeb, for "not over $50.00," and signed it. Mrs. Rothgeb told her husband that something was wrong, because "Andy" left the impression with her that he would not be back.
It would seem almost clear in that case that he expected to kill or be killed. Who, where, why? Who knows? It was tragic, but we believe that his death saved the lives of two or three others.
Eyewitnesses told us their version of the beginning of the tragic ending, but upon learning that we were going to quote them, immediately backed up. However, a little lady, 5-ft. 3 in. weighing about 115 pounds, Mrs. Grace Howell, told us the following, and did not back up on finding out we were going to print her words: "Andy came into the Atkinson Café about 8:00 on Monday night, and upon arriving said 'Well, well, what a crowd you have in here, Grace.' Then he asked for 30 cents to go to the local picture show. Words in a friendly and kidding manner were exchanged between Andy, Melvin O'Neal, John Dexter and A. P. Kitterman. During the conversation, O'Neal dunned Andy for some money he owed him. Andy went around to the back of the three, and then hit O'Neal, knocking him down between the stools. He hit A. P. Kitterman a light blow, and the next I knew, he had John Dexter in the kitchen, beating and kicking him. Where he received the gash on his head, I do not know, because I never saw anybody hit him. It was all so sudden, and so quick that it was over before one could really think the matter out."
Andrew J. Williams, 28, was shot and instantly killed about 9:15 p.m. Monday, by City Marshal, Ray Irwin, after Williams had beat up and caused bodily injury to four men, shot off a gun and hit Mr. Clarence Fischer on the chin with the butt of his shot gun, and then, as he turned the gun on Fischer, he was shot through the head.
Sheriff Harry Geyer of Howard had been called a little earlier. He brought two deputies and upon arrival, found Williams dead. Since the county coroner was out of the county, Dr. Claypool was deputized by Sheriff Geyer to act as coroner, and with the assistance of County Attorney Hubert Horning, a coroner's jury was selected, examinations made and an inquest held at the Crumrine Funeral Home, after the body was legally requested to be moved there. After Dr. Claypool's examination, witnesses were cited to be questioned, There was an oral examination and questionnaire held before County Attorney Hubert Horning, Sheriff Harry Guyer, his deputies, and the six official Coroners Jury. To our best memory and recollection, it follows:
John Dexter: "A. P. Kitterman, Melvin O'Neal and myself had just been in Atkinson's Café a few minutes when Andrew J. Williams walked in. We were drinking a bottle of bear. A few words were exchange and then O'Neal was hit by Williams, and knocked off his stool at the counter. This happened three times. The next I knew, Williams hit me, breaking my glasses, and after I was knocked down, he kicked me several times. By this time, we were in the kitchen. He then left me, why, I don't know. Some one came in and told me he was gone. I have a milk bottle in my hand for protection. I started home and stopped to tell City Marshal Ray Irwin that I was scared, and asked him if he had any shells for a 38 pistol. He gave me six. On going home, I again thought that if he came to my home, some of my family might be hurt or killed, so I returned to town, taking the pistol. On arriving, I could not see him any place, and the first I knew he was around again, was when he tried to pull me out of my car. I managed to load the pistol with one shell, and shot at him."
County Attorney: "Where did you aim?"
Dexter: "At his legs, but am quite sure I didn't hit him."
County Attorney: "Did he have a gun at that time?"
Dexter: "No."
County Attorney: What followed?
Dexter: "I jumped out of my car and ran to Mahan's Garage, and hid in the shrubbery. My brother, who had earlier been kicked by Williams and told to get out of the way, came along, and I almost shot him, thinking it was Williams."
Later testimony by Fred Dexter brought out this point. John Dexter was beat up severely about the head, back and ribs.
Next witness, A. P. Kitterman:
Kitterman: "We three were at Atkinson's Café and Williams came in. He went around the end of the counter and faced us directly. After a few words, in which I told him I wasn't afraid of him, he knocked O'Neal off the counter, came around and hit me in the back and then hit Dexter. I saw plenty of trouble and left as soon as possible. I went to Mahan's Garage and asked "Shorty" Mahan if he had a gun. "Shorty" wouldn't give me one, and I went on home and got my own. I never did turn a light on, and I knew Williams' voice when he came by my house, circling the block, and stopped in front of Mrs. Chamber's home on the corner north of me. I had a notion to slip up through the grass then and try to kill him. He shot three times at my house with a high-powered rifle, and then left. I took my gun and started for town with all intentions (and get this on the record) to kill him. It took quite a while and before finding Williams, I learned he was dead."
Sheriff Geyer found a Springfield 30-30 in Williams' car. Next Witness, Clarence Fischer:
Fisher: "I was just walking up to Atkinson's Café when Andrew J. Williams ran by me going to the corner north with a shot gun in his hand, turned and came back and said 'Where is that _ _ _ _ _ _ _John Dexter?' I told him I didn't know. He hit me on the chin, with the butt of his gun, and said 'You are a _ _ _ _ _ _ _ liar.' I didn't fall quite down, and as he swung the shot gun at me, he was shot by City Marshal, Ray Irwin.'
Ray Irwin was asked to testify, but told it was not compulsory at this time by Atty. Horning, if he did not wish to do so. He asked to be excused until later.
Other victims who were gone or going to a doctor and could not be called at the Coroner's Jury hearing were as follows:
Melvin O'Neal: Was beat up twice, and received bad bruises about the face, head and also to his spine. He returned to the doctor Tuesday for further medical examination and treatment.
Carl Jones, known to some as Carl Casper: "I was walking across the street east when hailed by Williams, who asked me where Ad Kitterman was. On replying I didn't know, Williams knocked me down, and when arising, he knocked me down again, and then started to kicking and stomping me into the ground. He finally left me and walked away."
Jones received cuts about the head and when taken to a doctor, it was discovered he had two broken ribs and a possible fracture of a third one.
The Coroner's Jury verdict, after hearing and observing all evidence possible, read as follows: "We find that Andrew J. Williams came to his death by a pistol shot fired by City Marshall Ray Irwin, in defense of others, and while performing his duties as said City Marshall of Longton, Elk County, Kansas, and which we find to be justified homicide." Signed by the six Coroner's Jury.
The body was taken to Blackwell, Oklahoma, Tuesday and services were held Thursday afternoon, at 2 o'clock at the Roberts Mortuary. Those attending from Longton were Allen Rothgeb, Mr. & Mrs. Clarence Jones and son, Ralph Jones, Carl Workman, Joe Stocking, Earl Howland, George Barnes and Earl Kitterman.
This is a Story that
Has been
Repeated
Over and over.
all who were
involved
were friends.
Boy that's some interesting and good reading there!
No wonder she didn't remember all about it, she didn't even live in Elk County at that time.
Thank you Bonnie ( I love the name Bonnie--only good people have that name )
In the article it mentions a guy called Carl Casper. Is that the Union Gas man I heard called Fat Casper ? I had heard that Andy was an Indian---is that true ? I do note they mis-spelled Joyce's uncle Clarence Fischers name. Oh Lordy--I have became a spelling forum police !!!
I actually like the name, too. And, I don't suppose I've told over a million people that I was named for your Mother? (A million? Well, maybe half that many!) (Or, maybe one/tenth that many?) (Or less!)
Yes, Carl Jones/Carl Casper was "Fat Casper." (Probably wouldn't get by with that, these days!)
And, yes, Andy was an Indian. He was one big guy, and he was very nice looking. I worked at the "Kitt's Cafe" when I was in High School, and he would come in to eat, and, as Jo said, he was always very polite.
And now for the rest of the story, Kshillbilly. the AD Kitterman that got his butt thumped by Andy in the café ?? In the 70's we had a shootout right on main street and AD Kittermam was involved in it. This shootout even made Paul Harvey news. AD Kitterman got drunk and stood on the east side of main and called the city marshal out of the café. Cleo Vestal was the marshal and as he started across the street telling AD to put down the shotgun. Ad blasted Cleo twice with the shotgun. Cleo pulled out his pistol and took a couple shots at AD and as people came out of the café to see what was going on, Cleo tossed his pistol to a teen ager and said "shoot that SOB" so Kenny H. shot a couple times then hauled arse. Ad was shot in the arm or shoulder but I don't think they knew who the good shot was. Cleo survived and I don't think Ad ever did go to prison but exiled from the county. Yea, this was a rough little village.
This was one of the first "points of interest" I was told about when I first started working at Louis Britain's shop.
I think we (the ones who know) can even point out the hole/divot in the brick front. Quite interesting.
Nice history lesson.
Bonnie, nice to know you made it home. Was getting worried, not hearing from you.
Hope you and Bob are well.