Students visiting at the Lincoln Memorial told to stop singing the National Anthem but after being dumbfounded at the request, the students continued singing, anyway.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/09/students-lincoln-memorial-told-stop-singing-national-anthem/
Seems to me the students were in a contemplative mode and spontaneously sang.
This happened back in June. Why is it being shown now? Unfortunately I do understand both sides of this. They don't want groups "taking over" for any reason whether it's preaching for a cause or singing because it could happen many times a day and disrupt the atmosphere. When I was a kid the teacher told us we weren't even allowed to talk while we were there. ( silent prayers were OK) But today's kids, who are very loose and free could get caught up in the moment, which seems so innocent until 50 other groups want to do the same thing and the serene atmosphere of the memorial is lost. My problem was that they refused to stop and got all smart with the officer. I hope every group that goes there now doesn't try to demand their "rights" to do something too. Leave it to the media to make a big deal out of it. I think if the kids had moved over to the side of the memorial rather than in it, it wouldn't have been a problem. Also note the very few kids who had their hands over their hearts. I hope this whole thing just quietly goes away as a one time thing and the media doesn't manipulate it into something that gets out of hand.
I wonder why they would even sing the anthem at a momument to a traitor
Article 3 section 3 of the Constitution prohibits the federal Government from levying war against any state and defines this act as Treason. Lincoln comitted treason in this act. Lincoln censured and prosecuted the press a clear violation of 1st amendment. He unleashed troops that murdered civilans, raped women, burned courthouses, and robbed banks in the southern states. He blockaided southern ports to prevent trade, suspended habeus corpus and imprisoned 16000 suspected confederate sympathisers in the north without trial. Spent money before congress authorized it. He introduced the first draft, and income tax without authorization of congress. Lincoln preferred Safety over liberty.
Lincoln changed America from what the Founding Fathers intended.
Lincoln layed the foundation for the mess in our country today. It's
your gov't schools that continue to promote the tyrant and his kind.
There's a women of about 85 yrs whose father came to Kansas from
Virginia in the early 1900's. She was born and raised here in KS. Recently,
she told me that when she was in school she wrote a report on Lincoln and
gave it to her dad to read. After reading her report, he said, "Honey, that
man was not like that at all". Obviously,her father knew the truth about the
real Lincoln. All of us raised in KS and attended the gov't schools, learned
what a great man that Lincoln was. Now, many of us know that he was not
a great man but he that he stood against the principles of our founding fathers.
You both very cleverly changed the topic. Now why is that? Not enough Lincoln bashing today? That was not a school trip so leave the schools out and go back to the topic or start another thread, PLEASE. >:(
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 10, 2010, 02:13:54 PM
You both very cleverly changed the topic. Now why is that? Not enough Lincoln bashing today? That was not a school trip so leave the schools out and go back to the topic or start another thread, PLEASE. >:(
Oh no lincoln bashing at all. I just said i don't see why anyone would honor a traitor, and gave his incredible track record he left.
Only thing booth did wrong was he waited too long
You surely know that the average American living today does not agree with you.You are welcome to your opinion of course but why hijack this subject?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 10, 2010, 03:09:13 PM
You surely know that the average American living today does not agree with you.You are welcome to your opinion of course but why hijack this subject?
I could care less what the average American believes. A FACT is a FACT. The FACTS i listed cannot be refuted. All of them were crimes, 1 of them was treason, and all were done by lincoln. if you can disprove the facts then i'll say he was a great hero but until then, he was one of the biggest traitors of this country.
Still hijacked..I'll say no more.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 10, 2010, 05:12:10 PM
Still hijacked..I'll say no more.
Better perhaps to divert from the trivial pursuit of an 'old' news story and to set the historical record straight, imho. But, nay, for some ferreting out truth is too upsetting or boring, I opine. I'm really gaining a deep disrespect, no disgust, for lazy non-thinkers, progressives and those who are afraid to discover truth when that truth doesn't conform to what 'everybody else' thinks or believes. I was always taught that just because 'everybody's doin it' doesn't make it right.
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
The kids who were singing didn't find it trivial. I guess changing the topic opened your door instead of discussing the pros and cons of the origional subject, which could have been rather interesting in it's own right. Why not start your own anti Lincoln thread and have at it instead of high jacking this one? Nobody is stopping you.
We agree in the fact that ya'll should start a thread for Lincoln bashing and then we'll see if you get followed to it and bitched at there too! No matter what you post, even if it IS the truth, someone will always know better than you. Remember it happened there several months before it ever got to Kansas! Bye again!!
the Hillbillys from Kansas
Discussing the Pro's and cons?...PRO'S and CON'S...What in the hell can be a Pro for stoping the singing of our National Anthem at a National Landmark in our Nations capital? And you're problem is that the kids "got all smart with the officer"? What they should've done was beat teh hell outta of that cop!! Oh, and in case you missed it, I have absolutely no use for "law enforcement" officers.
And just how in th hell do YOU know what the average American does or does not think? Who put you in charge of the census of American thought?
Quote from: Varmit on August 13, 2010, 12:05:54 PM
Discussing the Pro's and cons?...PRO'S and CON'S...What in the hell can be a Pro for stoping the singing of our National Anthem at a National Landmark in our Nations capital? And you're problem is that the kids "got all smart with the officer"? What they should've done was beat teh hell outta of that cop!! Oh, and in case you missed it, I have absolutely no use for "law enforcement" officers.
And just how in th hell do YOU know what the average American does or does not think? Who put you in charge of the census of American thought?
They should have beaten the cop? Seriously, that is your response?
Your damn right it is! You see, we used to have something in this country called Freedom. We are supposed to have this thing called a Constitution that is supposed to guarntee us certain Rights, i.e. Freedoms. However, that is no longer the case because people are no longer willing to actually fight to defend those freedoms. Oh sure, they say things like "vote the bastards out" and such, but are to ignorant or naive to realize that the whole voting thing is a joke, is broken, and doesn't work.
I'll take MY freedom to remind you that this topic is still hijacked. All I asked was that the thread not be hijacked. I see your propensity to personal attacks is still alive and well. There are rules for conduct all over the mall in DC. They are meant to protect ALL visitors from "demonstrations" and certain kinds of behavior. I'm sure if the kids had asked permission they would have been shown where they could have sung to their hearts delight, very close by. Where were the adults who should have handled this? These are adult issues, not kids issues. And your solution is to beat up someone, which would have ended up with the whole bunch arrested and jailed? Is that what "conservative leadership" is all about? "Freedom" does not mean totally unrestricted or without rules or there would be chaos.
My propensity to personal attacks? How? I didn't attack you, I simply asked a question, learn the difference for cryin' out loud. You're damn right my solution would have been to beat the crap out of that facist SOB L.E. officer. They weren't "demonstrating" they were the National anthem!
I am well aware of what freedom means, thank you very much. Do you? AI mean honestly, are we to just lay down our freedoms because some bozo with a badge says we have too? Of all the places in our country to express our freedoms, the mall should be one of the most unrestrictive. Espcially when it comes to showing national pride and patriotism.
Nope, sorry, that's not how it works on the mall. It's too bad that doesn't meet with your approval, but so be it. The "Bozo" was doing his job enforcing regulations that were the same for everyone, not just those kids. For obvious reasons security is tight and people are watched very carefully. They don't let people dance naked there or draw George Washington in shaving cream either ,but perhaps with permission. There are many events up and down the mall, but they are scheduled and checked and authorized. After 9-11 you should understand that. It's a shame that the situation happened and I'm sure it might have been handled better but the adults should have handled it. More of the media looking for that "high emotional response" , and getting it. They are very successfully manipulating the emotions of the viewers. IMHO.
And yes, I really am in charge of the census of American thought. I can show you my card. To me that smarmy comment and the previous sentence is a personal attack. But since I'm tough I'll live. Some day I'll tell you about a man I recently met who explained your personality type to me. No, I never mentioned you, but it was very interesting.
there are laws in this country and that isn't a new concept. If you use your freedom and choose not to follow them then you suffer the consequences. And yes, all they had to do was move a few feet to be legal.
Un-freaking-believable. Sad. And down-right pathetic. All these kids did was sing the NATIONAL ANTHEM!! They weren't demonstrating, they weren't "marching" for anything, they weren't protesting anything, all they did was sing one song...
Tell me something, was it wrong for folks back in Lincoln's day to organize the Underground Railroad? I mean, afterall, helping slaves escape was against the law, so they should've been punished right?
I agree Varmit and I heard of another ridiculous story of a 7 year old girl whose lemonade stand was shutdown by the Health Inspector near Portland, Oregon because she didn't have a license! What the hell's wrong with the stupid people in this country?
What's wrong with this country, you ask?
Barack Hussein Obuma!
That is what's wrong with this country, Kshillbilly. And I have all ideas you agree with me. ;D
Warph, obama ain't the problem. He's part of it to be sure. The stupid bastards that voted for him in the first place...theres the problem.
I think the childrens' singing was spontaneous and a result of them contemplating the statue. If it was truly spontaneoous then they would not have thought of moving to a different area. They would be frustrated by someone telling them to move.
Bottom line is it is a public (aka people owned property). It is not private property. So therefore restricting 1st amendment rights is unconstitutional period.
It is also a memorial site; a park service site. A respectful silent attitude is expected when visiting, and the adults accompnying the students should have been aware of that. The park officer certainly was not to blame for doing his job.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on August 14, 2010, 10:08:47 PM
It is also a memorial site; a park service site. A respectful silent attitude is expected when visiting, and the adults accompnying the students should have been aware of that. The park officer certainly was not to blame for doing his job.
Still a public property and no they have NO right to stop someone from speaking or singing. To do so is a violation.
You're absolutely right Sixdogs, it is a memorial site, do you really think that President Lincoln would have minded a group of school kids singing our National Anthem? Afterall, according to popular history he did lead this nation in a war for freedom didn't he?
In this case the officer IS to blame. L.E.O's have the authority to excrise what is known as 'Officer descristion', that is they pick and choose when and where to enforce so-called laws, and when to let it slide.
I think the officer should have used his discretion. The children were reacting spontaneously to the situation after contemplating the statue. In other words they were doing what came to them naturally and should not be told to move. This is apparently what the rule for contemplation implied.
My guess it was posted and they should learn to read.
the article said it was NOT posted.
If the article said it was not posted, then that would make it the gospel by all means.
Lets say the children had a diifferent reaction to the statue: many of them thought and contemplated the civil war and the sacrifices made in that war. They spontaneously began crying right on the spot. Should the gaurd ask them to move to another spot to cry? Seems kind of silly to me.
I think its silly that we have a 4 page thread on this topic.
I have just revisited this article yet again, and I certainly do not see where it says that it was not posted. And you are correct Anmar; way too much has been made of this nonsense. :P
:) Well move to another spot.
Amen twirldoggy! If you guys feel that it's "nonsense" and too much is being made of it then quit reading the topic.
I'll second that motion Kshillbilly
I seem to have lost the purpose of this article being posted? What was it supposed to inform us of that we needed to know?
Since it looks like this thread is about to die, I'll just post here to tell kshillbilly I love seeing the picture of Ma and Pa Kettle. Like many of you I remember seeing these in the movie theatres while I ate my dime bag of popcorn.
Thank you Roma Jean! We love those old movies! :D
This thread is about freedom of speech on public property. It is interesting in that it speaks to freedom of speech for children as well. Also it relates to the idea of the arbitrary enforcement of rules, even though the situation is dictating otherwise. It directly relates to the feeling that many people have of losing freedoms and being told what to do even if it makes no sense in the current situation.
Once I planned to go and look at the art in the Nelson Gallery. I went alone because very few people want to do this. I took a CD player (the old days). I was having a wonderful experience listening to Mario Frangoulis singing in Greek and Italian. At the same time looking at ancient Chinese art. A security gaurd approached me and told me I could not listen to the music as I might miss hearing a fire alarm!! Well I was listening to music and hearing his voice so I wasn't about to miss the fire alarm. I had to comply with his directive but it was mighty frustrating.
I think also it is a good example of how easily those freedoms can be taken by someone just because they have a badge. I also think it shows (and I hate to use this but it really fits) just how "sheep" like alot in this country have become.
That above one is very strange! I've been to many galleries and showings where you get a head set and player that you carry with you. It tells you about what you are viewing. Nobody else can hear it so it doesn't bother anyone else and I could most definitely hear an alarm if it went off. I wonder what that was really about? I'm not an absolute skeptic as are some, but I find that very odd.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 17, 2010, 08:55:22 AM
That above on is very strange! I've been to many galleries and showings where you get a head set and player that you carry with you. It tells you about what you are viewing. Nobody else can hear it so it doesn't bother anyone else and I could most definitely hear an alarm if it went off. I wonder what that was really about? I'm not an absolute skeptic as are some, but I find that very odd.
Its not the same listening through the headset. The sound echoing off the halls of a museum give it a different sound.
I was listening through an earphone in one ear only. It may seem odd but it really happened.
Sound "echoing off the walls?" Huh? How loud would that have to be? If that were the case I'd object too! ;D
Another thought: anyone can recite and enforce the rules. People are fearful of not enforcing the rules because they can be sued. But how often does this happen? I would much prefer that officers and gaurds use their discretion. In this case I see nothing wrong with letting school children sing in front of the statue. Very unlikely that anyone would sue over it. The song would be over and the children would leave in a few minutes.
Discretion is surely the way to go. Behavior standards in public places have changed so much that people will do and say things now that wouldn't have been thought of years ago. It's also a matter of the comparisons people insist on making. If you let THEM break the rules by doing "A" why can't I do "B?" It's a shame those nice kids got caught up in that and perhaps some rules might be changed because of it. But as of right now, inside the memorial and on the steps, silence is the watchword and if you've ever been there, you just can't help a feeling of quiet awe and peace. Most people stop to read the Gettysburg address and the second inaugural speech that are on the walls of the two side chambers. Singing the Lords Prayer, a personal favorite of mine, wouldn't be allowed either.
I guess my spitting on the bust of Harry Truman at the state capitol building in Jefferson City, Mo when I was four, in todays world, would have me in Juvenille Detention under the custody of DFS and my Mom and StepDad would probably have been led out in handcuffs for some kind of something. (Instead they only had to go through the momentary embarrasement of watching it happen in front of the entire guided tour...Ha, ha.) What can I say, Grandma and Grandad said they didn't like Harry Truman...so I just threw in my two cents worth.
Shame on you Roma Jean. If I told you Sarge slobbered all over Bess Truman's bust you would call him a sick puppy !! :)
No she wouldn't. Roma Jean is an understanding woman.
You folks are awful....ly funny! ;D ;D ;D
I have been to the Lincoln Memorial but it was before any such rules as silence were made. One just walked up and looked at it.
If silence is the watchword why would they allow groups to hold rallies, demonstrations and such on the steps of the memorial?
Another question: Do rules of silence also apply to other memorials such as Madison, Washington, etc.?