Christian student fights for her beliefs
Bill Bumpas - OneNewsNow - 7/22/2010 12:25:00 PM
A counseling student has filed suit against a university in Georgia because she claims the school is forcing her to abandon her Christian beliefs in order to receive a degree.
Jennifer Keeton, 24, is pursuing her master's degree in counseling at Augusta State University. But after her professors learned of her biblical beliefs -- specifically her views on homosexual conduct -- from both classroom discussions and private conversations with other students, the school imposed a "remediation plan."
"It's in essence [telling her] 'you do not have the correct beliefs, we are going to re-educate you into the correct beliefs,'" explains David French, senior counsel with the Alliance Defense Fund. "And unless she completes this -- quote -- 'remediation plan' to their satisfaction, then she can be thrown out of [the school's counseling program]."
French tells OneNewsNow there are some absurd elements to the plan. "Such as admonishing her to go to -- quote -- a 'gay-pride parade' and write about her feelings after she's been," he describes. "In other words, [the school's plan would be] deliberately exposing her to behavior that she finds immoral in the hope that she'll accept it. It's ridiculous."
French calls it "pure thought reform" and accuses Augusta State of outlining "a program of indoctrination" for Keeton.
"Jennifer is not interested in being indoctrinated, she wants to be educated," states the attorney. "She wants to learn about the counseling profession, she wants to be a good counselor -- but being a good counselor does not require that one surrender their most fundamental religious beliefs."
And so French says Keeton is filing suit [PDF] to get the school to respect her First Amendment rights. "A public university student shouldn't be threatened with expulsion for being a Christian and refusing to publicly renounce her faith, but that's exactly what's happening here," he concludes.
Quotebut being a good counselor does not require that one surrender their most fundamental religious beliefs."
no it doesn't......it DOES however require empathy for the situation of the person you are counseling.
I am on BOTH sides in this.........and before you jump down my throat....read what I say and think about it for a minute.
I agree with the student in that her religious beliefs have absolutely nothin to do with getting her education and the school has absolutely no right to make her do anything against her conscience.
I agree with the school on the level that they are trying to teach her a lesson about something good counselors have to do which is accept the person you are counseling as they are and go from there. You can't give someone the help they need if you are busy judging them.
If you judge people, you have no time to love them. ~~Mother Teresa~~ and that is what a counselor is for isnt it?
Am I making myself clear or just opening myself up for another pissin match about whos the "Christian"? Cause that is NOT what I was tryin to do. I don't see it as making her abandon her religious beliefs even if that IS at the heart of what the professor is after on a certain level..........realizing that you are going to have to deal with people who differ from yourself both in religious belief or NONbelief for that matter....people who live different lifestyles that you dont agree with if you go for a career as a counselor is actually a GOOD wake-up call in my opinion.......if you are not strong enough in your faith...no matter WHAT it is to withstand bein exposed to other ways maybe you need to examine yourSELF instead of the person trying to show you said other viewpoints. That is just MY take on it though.
(standin up grittin my teeth )
Well said, Pam.
Good post pam
I agree Pam...to a point. As a counseler a person needs to have an idea of where the other person is coming from.
That being said, I feel the school is wrong in that they don't apply this same policy across the board. They're not forcing gay students to attend religious services that teach against homosexuaity.
To me, it seems that the school targeted her specifically. Thats discrimination no matter how you cut it.
Professional counselors who have to obtain licenses in most states must be able to talk with anyone about anything. They work in clinics and private practice situations ( as well as other situations). While in graduate school the counselor is "desensitized " by certain of the professors to be able to do this. I suspect this is why the student was sent to a gay pride meeting. The school is not telling her to abandon her belief system. The school is trying to educate her to be a competant counselor and to be at ease in any situation in which she is involved as a professional counselor.
I attended graduate school (72 difficult hours) at KU. There were many, and I do mean many, young people there who were conservative Christians. They were never confronted about their belief systems. We had one class named "Clinical and Social Judgement". In this class many of the young people discussed their beliefs and their wishes to work with people in Christian institutions. Their talk about their sincere beliefs was welcomed in the class by a very wise professor.
As an example: a psychologist had to be present and interview BTK in order to give a report to the court about his mental state. As repugnant as this might be, the psychologist maintains a professional demeanor and reports the facts about BTK's mental state regardless of his or her personal feelings or Christian beliefs about the behaviors of BTK.
Quote from: twirldoggy on July 23, 2010, 05:39:33 PM
Professional counselors who have to obtain licenses in most states must be able to talk with anyone about anything. They work in clinics and private practice situations ( as well as other situations). While in graduate school the counselor is "desensitized " by certain of the professors to be able to do this. I suspect this is why the student was sent to a gay pride meeting. The school is not telling her to abandon her belief system. The school is trying to educate her to be a competant counselor and to be at ease in any situation in which she is involved as a professional counselor.
Competant counselor?..Counsel someone according to Scripture and you can't go wrong.
Again, why isn't the school using these same requirements on their atheist students, gay students, etc?
Quote from: Varmit on July 23, 2010, 05:49:06 PM
Competant counselor?..Counsel someone according to Scripture and you can't go wrong.
Again, why isn't the school using these same requirements on their atheist students, gay students, etc?
Except that the counselor would be insensitive to any other belief system and likely would try to foist their beliefs on the individual being counseled.
Quote from: jerry wagner on July 23, 2010, 05:50:50 PM
Except that the counselor would be insensitive to any other belief system and likely would try to foist their beliefs on the individual being counseled.
Then why isn't the school foisting this on the other religious beliefs. Again they don't require athiests to go to a baptist revival.
Licesed professional counselors, psychologists, licensed clinical social workers voluntarily undergo classes to learn their professions.
They pay huge amounts of money and give up many things in life to learn. There are atheist students, gay students and many other personal belief systems and lifestyles just as there are in any professional training. Some students do get angry, upset and embarassed about things that happen in class. It is a part of learning and a part of becoming a professional. There is a difference between one's personal beliefs and actions and the actions taken in professional situations. One learns early on how to differentiate and how to conduct oneself in the way that the profession dictates.
Well said and well met, Twirldoggy! :angel:
Exactly Twirldoggy.......that is what I was tryin to say but you said it MUCH better and clearer.
Thanks to you both !
Quote from: jerry wagner on July 23, 2010, 05:50:50 PM
Except that the counselor would be insensitive to any other belief system and likely would try to foist their beliefs on the individual being counseled.
And how is the school NOT doing that by forcing this girl to attend gay pride parades and such?
Quote from: twirldoggy on July 23, 2010, 07:25:37 PM
Licesed professional counselors, psychologists, licensed clinical social workers voluntarily undergo classes to learn their professions.
They pay huge amounts of money and give up many things in life to learn. There are atheist students, gay students and many other personal belief systems and lifestyles just as there are in any professional training. Some students do get angry, upset and embarassed about things that happen in class. It is a part of learning and a part of becoming a professional. There is a difference between one's personal beliefs and actions and the actions taken in professional situations. One learns early on how to differentiate and how to conduct oneself in the way that the profession dictates.
Exactly, so why make this girl attend functions and enviroments that she isn't comfortable with?
And just out of curiosity, I wonder if people would be as tolerant toward the school if they were forcing her to attend a NAMBLA meeting?
A Gay Pride event is not the same thing as NAMBLA and I doubt if the University would support NAMBLA. Most people in the Gay community have a problem with NAMBLA. For those of you who do not know what NAMBLA means - North American Man/Boy Love Association.
Homosexuality was removed from the list of mental disorders by the AMA in 1973 but replaced with "ego-dystonic homosexuality," which in turn was completely removed in 1986. Studies were conducted that showed that homosexuals were not anymore "messed up" than their heterosexual counterparts. We all have issues.
Equating a normal Gay Pride event with NAMBLA reminds me of the people who say if we allow gay marriage we will have to allow marriage to animals/family/kids, etc. It is not a valid argument.
Varmit...........exposing someone to things they are going to have to deal with in their chosen career to see if they can HANDLE themselves or it is NOT forcing that thing/belief on the person. It is basically a trial by fire if you will.
A counselor has to be prepared to deal with horrible/sad/painful/sometimes totally disgusting things that have happened to people or that people have done to others.....a job as a couselor has absolutely NOTHING to do with PREACHING.
Your faith has to sustain YOU to do the job you CHOSE to do. It has to sustain YOU to deal with the horrible things you will be exposed to and "mans inhumanity to man"
NAMBLA is just one more perversion you may have to deal with.
Tdub, you say that folks in the gay community don't support nambla, really?...http://www.rightsidenews.com/201001048028/editorial/nambla-gate-the-strange-case-of-kevin-jennings-part-one.html (http://www.rightsidenews.com/201001048028/editorial/nambla-gate-the-strange-case-of-kevin-jennings-part-one.html)
..and thats just one source, I can find others. Might I point out a rather obivous fact...nambla/male to male sexual behavior...gays/male to male sexual behavior...Hmmmm, coincidence?...me thinks not!
Pam, if that is the case then (and yes I will restate this question yet again) why aren't non-christians being exposed to christian beliefs, practices, and meetings? How are they supposed to deal with christans clients?
Varmit,
That article talks about one person supporting NAMBLA and possibly another. Two people do not make up the entire gay community. I said most people in the gay community do not support NAMBLA. I certainly do not.
You know, I actually live this gay life that you write about so often. You can talk about gay people or you can talk to one. I know I challenge your beliefs, but I'm not trying to change them. Believe what you will. I know I won't change your mind. I'm just looking for mutually beneficial dialogue.
QuotePam, if that is the case then (and yes I will restate this question yet again) why aren't non-christians being exposed to christian beliefs, practices, and meetings? How are they supposed to deal with christans clients?
what makes you think they aren't? For that matter people are exposed to "christianity" every day just by osmosis. It's not something you can be insulated from like homosexuality/other races etc. or the things you are hollerin about. Homosexuals don't go door to door recruitin/spreading the Word. Other races don't go door to door sayin you know "have you heard the good news about bein black/brown/red/yellow/purple?" I live 25 miles from town out in the BOONIES in the middle of what used to be a pasture and the jehovah witnesses showed up out here :P so yeah I think people get exposed to christianity on a daily basis whether they WANT to be or not.
(and just for fyi the ladies were real nice, we talked awhile, I told em they might as well keep their books because quite honestly I wasn't gonna read em, we talked gardenin for while, they felt me out about my thoughts on the state of the world and it ending in a couple weeks probly, told em I wasn't sweatin it, and why, they allowed as how I was a pretty mellow person on a spiritual level told me to have a nice day I said backatcha and we parted friends)
For that matter you don't go to a counselor because you want advice on religion (unless they ARE a religious counselor that is)
FAITH/personal or otherwise actually has nothing to do with BEING a counselor. YOUR own personal faith may help you deal and be a more EFFECTIVE counselor.
and on that note my friend.....it is TOO nice a day to spend it arguin with you. So I'm off to the garden and the mower but YOU have a real nice day and I'm out of the religion business LOL Peace
Quote from: pamagain on July 23, 2010, 07:31:01 AM
no it doesn't......it DOES however require empathy for the situation of the person you are counseling.
I am on BOTH sides in this.........and before you jump down my throat....read what I say and think about it for a minute.
I agree with the student in that her religious beliefs have absolutely nothin to do with getting her education and the school has absolutely no right to make her do anything against her conscience.
I agree with the school on the level that they are trying to teach her a lesson about something good counselors have to do which is accept the person you are counseling as they are and go from there. You can't give someone the help they need if you are busy judging them.
If you judge people, you have no time to love them. ~~Mother Teresa~~ and that is what a counselor is for isnt it?
I would love to comment on this thread but, I can't since I'm a Donor of UGA... both of my children and wife graduated from the University of Georgia. I worked for UGA after retirement from the fed and took a number of graduate courses. All I can say is that Pam's quote makes alot of sense. You have to look at both sides in this rather sad situation.
Damn... did I just comment ???
Tdub, I don't mean this in a hateful way, but I don't think it is possible for christians (at least me anyway) and homosexuals to have "mutally beneficial dialogue." In general, gays may be "good" people but I don't agree with their pushing their ideals on the traditions and values that have stood in this country since its beginning.
As for the NAMBLA thing goes, maybe the homosexual community as a whole doesn't support it, I'll give you that. And I apologize for my last post, admittedly, it was uncalled for.
Pam, do you see any stories about gays or whoever being forced to attend any religious services? No, because it isn't happening. As for people being exposed to different things the same can be said for christians. THEY aren't insulated against things they don't agree with.
As for the jehovah witnesses, I don't much care for their viewpoint either. When they come here I tell them that I will allow them to talk about ideas as long as they allow me to tell them the Truth.
There are many counselors of different belief systems who counsel Christians. In my work at KU there was a course entitled "Spirituality and Social Work Practice". It was taught by a Native American and it was well attended and one that
students liked. At that time counselors were being encouraged to talk about spiritual issues with clients who wanted to discuss the issues with them. The counselor was to fully reveal their belief system to the client and then attempt to the best of their ability to discuss the issue.
The alternative is to refer the person to an expert: an expert in their own belief system. According to accreditation standards large hospitals maintain lists of people who speak different languages and have religious beliefs that they can discuss with critically ill people. For example if a Hindu who speaks just a little English comes to a hospital with a critical illness there will be a person on a list who they can call to talk with the patient. They may not be a licensed counselor but they can at least talk with the patient. Another example is the Native American who come to the hospital and wants another Native American to perform healing rituals.
Accreditation standards say that patients spiritual needs are part of holistic treatment and that hospitals need to be prepared to deal with these issues. Not all hospitals can do this because there are not enough volunteers in the community.
Varmit - fair enough.
I respect your beliefs and your right to have them.
QuotePam, do you see any stories about gays or whoever being forced to attend any religious services?
Not happening? Haven't you heard of the "reprogramming" camps people can force their kids to go to to "heal" them from being gay? I don't even know any gay people at the moment but I have.
QuoteAs for the jehovah witnesses, I don't much care for their viewpoint either. When they come here I tell them that I will allow them to talk about ideas as long as they allow me to tell them the Truth.
Well Varmit...y'see....... I don't care about their viewpoint one way or the other.....I would never be rude to somebody who came to my house. Not unless THEY were. I read those books years ago when I got em the first time....they don't "speak" to me. I will talk to damn near ANYbody about anyTHING long as they are civil about it. They are just doin the job they think God WANTS em to do so who am I to keep em from gettin their brownie points? Kinda the same way I feel about you gettin YOUR brownie points LOL
now I really AM tired of all the religious stuff so if you want to have the last word after this knock yourself out budreau :) My spiritual views are not the same as yours except on the most basic level it sounds like so Go.....live your life....be happy LOL I have had a pretty nice day putterin around the place and I REALLY don't want to lose the pleasant mood it gave me :)
Quote from: pamagain on July 24, 2010, 04:29:47 PM
Not happening? Haven't you heard of the "reprogramming" camps people can force their kids to go to to "heal" them from being gay? I don't even know any gay people at the moment but I have.
No. Pam its not happening. Do you see any other colleges or schools forcing gays to attend religious services that speak against homosexuality?
As for the "reprogramming camps", that is a whole different story. A parent has the right to send their kids wherever they want.