Sex-ed program sparks grizzly effect
Bill Bumpas - OneNewsNow - 7/16/2010 6:00:00 AM
A proposed sex-education curriculum in Montana is drawing outrage because it would teach young children about subjects like same-sex intercourse.
Under the proposal for the Helena school district, kindergartners would learn the proper names of sexual body parts, first-graders would be taught that sexual relations could happen between two men or two women, and fifth-graders would learn the various ways people can have intercourse.
Jeff Laszloffy, president of the Montana Family Foundation (MFF), contends that the proposal "tramples" on parental rights. "It places government squarely between parents and their children," he claims, "and the outrage that we're seeing in Helena, we understand well, because in Montana we understand what happens when you get between a mother grizzly and her cubs."
He relates that reaction to the "level of outrage that we're seeing from these parents that feel like their children are being indoctrinated rather than educated."
He notes that the superintendent and supportive board members claim parents will be able to have their kids opt-out, "but then they're careful in the rest of their testimony to make sure that the public understands that this is both systemic and comprehensive, which means that it's going to be infused into every part of the curriculum all the way from kindergarten through 12th grade."
So Laszloffy concludes that opting-out is not practical, and he feels parents should continue to express indignation because it appears the board may have enough votes to pass the controversial curriculum.
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Tell me again how schools work with parents and such? If I lived in Helena I would pull my kids out of that school so fast...
No child should be subjected to this.
I know right. Its sick. The thing that gets me is that the school adminstration seems to think it is a good idea. And maybe its just me but having Planned Parenthood help put it together seems a little odd.
I can imagine them sitting is some committee meeting and justifying this kind of thing. It is part of the reason our country is in such a mess.
I'd like to see the lesson plans. I heard Montana is considering the program but has not yet decided. The "Good Touch Bad Touch" programs and "Stranger Danger" programs are very good. I've seen them given many times and definitely approve. I won't go into details unless someone wants them. I do think kids should be taught the correct names for their own body parts, preferably at home. I'm not sure how people can decide unless they see the proposed program for themselves. Show some at a special PTA meeting and see what the parents think. If it's too far afield, then don't approve it, but don't just go by hearsay. If it really is too much too soon, get a court order to stop it. That should be easy. On the other side, I hate to see kids at a disadvantage against an adult who wants to prey on them. Kids often assume that if something bad happens it was their fault because of the clever and practiced way an evil adult can manipulate children. You can't assume that a child thinks like an adult. Look at the priest situation for example. If the local priest is a serious fixture in the community as they often are, the boy hears father so an so's praises over and over. He decides NOBODY is going to believe him and so the preying continues until the boy is a man and then may or may not tell. As far as "teaching"sexual positions, I'm a skeptic and would have to learn more what is and isn't true about that. I do know that among themselves, kids have decided that oral sex isn't really sex and doesn't count because they can't get pregnant. So now the cases of mouth and genital gonorrhea and herpes have increased.
It used to be when kids were ready to learn about sex they would ask. Are they asking much too soon now? I wonder.
Fox news has an article with a link to the lesson plans. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/14/montana-kindergarten-sex-ed/
OneNewsNow.com has some articles on it as well.
As for the "Good Touch Bad Touch" programs and "Stranger Danger" programs, I agree. Correct names for body parts, sure, when the kids are ready. Homosexuality and various other things should be left at home. The problem is when the school couples teaching about Lifestyle choices with lessons on tolerance without regard for family beliefs.
Quote from: Varmit on July 16, 2010, 02:43:57 PM
Fox news has an article with a link to the lesson plans. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/14/montana-kindergarten-sex-ed/
OneNewsNow.com has some articles on it as well.
As for the "Good Touch Bad Touch" programs and "Stranger Danger" programs, I agree. Correct names for body parts, sure, when the kids are ready. Homosexuality and various other things should be left at home. The problem is when the school couples teaching about Lifestyle choices with lessons on tolerance without regard for family beliefs.
That's because we do not need children in school being intolerant of others or their families. There is enough difficulty for a lot of children in making it through the day in school without that additional difficulty.
It is not up to the schools to decide what a child should believe in regards to homosexuals, trans genders etc. When a teacher stands up in front of a class and says, for example, "Some kids have two daddies or two mommies and thats okay." then that teacher has just over stepped her bounds. My kids are brought up to believe that homosexuality is wrong, its not okay.
So the child in class who does have two mommies gets beat up on the play ground? I wouldn't flaunt it of course but how do think that child would feel? Would you wreck that's child's life? They didn't have any choice in the matter. OK now put yourself in the teachers place and enlighten us on the way to handle this situation. Your kids would be sure to tell that child he was doomed to hell because the child has two mommies? Kids can be horribly mean. Are you really going to call your son's penis a wee-wee until...uh how old. When is he ready? I'm just shaking my head.
So I checked that site and it didn't help at all. I could only get the chapter titles ,not the detailed subject matter.Most of the materials are almost exactly what I taught in 5th grade and you all probably had in school too. All the systems of the body are still there with the sections on nutrition and health.There are two pages on family and peers, that's good. Some address modern problems such as the influence of advertizing There's a piece on STDs which I think is very important if handled carefully. (I already mentioned the oral sex problem.) The five pages on human sexuality must be the hang up,wish I could see them.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 16, 2010, 03:50:45 PM
So the child in class who does have two mommies gets beat up on the play ground? I wouldn't flaunt it of course but how do think that child would feel? Would you wreck that's child's life? They didn't have any choice in the matter. OK now put yourself in the teachers place and enlighten us on the way to handle this situation. Your kids would be sure to tell that child he was doomed to hell because the child has two mommies? Kids can be horribly mean. Are you really going to call your son's penis a wee-wee until...uh how old. When is he ready? I'm just shaking my head.
You know what, I've tried to control my temper with you on most subjects but this one just cuts it...
First off, my kids would never beat up another child for their beliefs or family situation, and I sure as hell take offense to you even implying it. In fact, my kids would probably befriend that child and try to be a good example in their lives, cause that child isn't getting one at home. Also, I never said that that child would be damned to hell for choices his parents makes.
Say what you will about me, but keep your mouth shut about my kids.
what I object to are the details of what same sex couples do with each other . No child shouold be subjected to this.
Varmit,BACK OFF! >:( Now GO BACK AND SLOOOOOOWLY READ WHAT I REALLY WROTE. I put you IN THE TEACHERS PLACE AND ASKED YOU HOW YOU WOULD HANDLE THE SITUATION. "YOUR KIDS" were the classroom kids, not yours personally. Good grief!You have been talking and complaining about teachers and schools so much have you totally lost it? Get out of yourself, it isn't always about you! So go ahead and get mad, I wouldn't expect anything different. The wee-wee business was just a poke as I never considered you would so totally misread the other.I'm still waiting for an answer on how you would handle the situation if the kids were talking mean to the child with the two mommies!
Twirl I agree, but at what age does it become Ok ? The family life class in middle school might be too late in some cases. I sure don't have the answer, kids mature at such different rates that what is too late for one is much to early for another. I couldn't see the details on the lesson plan so I really don't know what is in it. Kids get so much bad information from each other I don't know what the answer is.
No Diane, I won't back off. If I missread your post, sorry. But I will not apologize for how I feel about my kids.
You know, you might try NOT jumping for the exterme on every issue.
Diane this is such a big, complicated topic we could go on for hundreds of words, and many pages. The details of what same sex couples do is not appropriate in school at all. If a teen is gay and wants gay relationships that teen will figure it out or find some way to learn. Many children are beginning early and I know for a fact they are having group experiences where they watch each other have sex. No, I don't approve of this, but as a child counselor I began hearing this in 1995 and listened to it for ten years! Safety is always an issue, but the majority of couples will throw caution to the wind, and then seek help after the fact.
Varmit ... Do you ever admit to being wrong? IF you misread my post? There is no IF.You did period. Nobody is picking on your kids. Why are you so defensive? You went for the extreme on me and jumped to a wrong conclusion without reading. and all I get is a "sorry" with strings on it? As a classroom teacher I had "extremes" dropped in my lap on nearly a daily basis. Are you going to answer the original question or not?
Little John got beat up on the playground because the classroom kids found out he has two mommies and no daddy. They tell him he is going to hell because his parents are the same with no daddy. How's that? Tell me how to handle it.
Twirl, I agree. That's why I was hoping to see the actual plans. There are people out there who want nothing more than to stir things up with no consideration to truth or accuracy. Are there really lesson plans for positions for anybody, let alone same sex couples or is it myth. There is so much garbage out there, I'd love to know the truth and if it so, what in the world is the justification for it. I read that teachers are putting up a fuss and are going to refuse to teach those parts. If it really is true I'd be leading the pack. It's just so far from what I'm used to that I'm a skeptic. I know you've seen the worst of the worst and I've seen some sexual experimentation (and worse) that got out of hand and wound up on the ambulance. I'd love to know what the truth is in this case.
I wasn't wrong, I misread your post and apologized for it. I am "defensive" about my kids when it comes to my kids, if you don't like it, tough.
Now, as for your question...I would tell that child that he isn't going to hell for the actions of his "parents". But according to the Bible and God, homosexuality is a sin. If he is still worried about his "parents" then I would encourage him to ask them to take him to church.
Wouldn't you worry about how the school would feel about you discussing religion at school? Teachers aren't supposed to cross that line.
First, I or the office, would call one of the parents because the kid got beat up. Then I would ask the parent how they wanted it handled. They must have known some kids wouldn't deal with it well. The kids involved with the beating would be sent to the office and their parents would be called also because of the fighting. Probably the principle or a counselor would tell those parents about the school's no bullying policy and that they and/or their kids can't project their beliefs about homosexuality at school, especially to the child . Suspension might follow for the fighting.
Let me throw a scenario out for you guys.
What would you do with the 7-year-old boy who is gay? Everybody who met him saw the gay tendencies - teachers, therapists, other adults in his life. He was told gay was wrong and he hated. He tried to burn down schools, homes, churches. He was sneakily violent towards people, tried to kill siblings and parents. Only after he was an older teen and came to accept himself as a gay person, complete within himself did the anger stop. Once he was allowed to be who he was without recriminations, he started becoming a productive member of society.
If he had been taught at an early age that he was an okay person, there probably would not have been as much violence in his life and many, many people would have less pain.
Diane, would I worry about how the school felt..No.
Mom, I don't believe that it is possbile for a 7yr. old boy to make the decision to be gay. I think that there were deeper issues than that bothering that boy. What were the "gay tendencies" exhibited by a 7yr old that everyone saw?
Varmit -
That's the problem. He didn't make the decision to be gay. He wanted very much not to be and was angry with the world as a result. In school he was teased relentlessly and unmercifully by his peers. They wanted nothing to do with his "kind" and were very blunt in telling him so. No friends.
His tendencies? The way he talked, walked, pictures he drew, pictures he looked at, what he liked, what he didn't like, what he played with, how he played with them, what photos he tore out of magazines, what pictures he kept in his "hidden" places.
He's the one the made me realize some people are created different. Who knows why and for what purpose?
That is the result of the herd mentality of most humans Mom. Can't deviate from the norm and not have the herd turn on you cause you upset the status quo.
I saw the same thing growin up with a couple kids and it appalled me then, then when I got to be an adult I worked with a few and realized they are just people like everybody else except for what they do and with whom and figured like that was THEIR business just like MY sex life was MY business.
I hate cruelty...........and that's what that was....heart-breakin soul shatterin cruelty. I am ashamed I didn't know enough then to stop it.
Mom70x7-
I just can't buy into line that people are born gay. Even if you take God completely out of the picture (which is impossible) and look at it from a scientific viewpoint, it makes absolutely no sense. There is no reason for it, and in fact is counterproductive to the continuation of the species. And if it were something that a person is born with, and has no choice in the matter, then how do you explain a person that goes from a gay lifestyle to straight?
If the child exhibited the behaviors you say (violence towards others, arson, as well as how and what he played with, pictures he kept etc) I would look closer at his home enviroment. The behavior patterns you mentioned are often indicators of some form of abuse.
http://www.nationalcac.org/families/for_workers/abuse_indicators.html (http://www.nationalcac.org/families/for_workers/abuse_indicators.html)
Quote from: Mom70x7 on July 17, 2010, 07:13:18 AM
Varmit -
That's the problem. He didn't make the decision to be gay. He wanted very much not to be and was angry with the world as a result. In school he was teased relentlessly and unmercifully by his peers. They wanted nothing to do with his "kind" and were very blunt in telling him so. No friends.
His tendencies? The way he talked, walked, pictures he drew, pictures he looked at, what he liked, what he didn't like, what he played with, how he played with them, what photos he tore out of magazines, what pictures he kept in his "hidden" places.
He's the one the made me realize some people are created different. Who knows why and for what purpose?
You know thats the lamest excuse for being violent. first of all, kids are mean. I have seen it happen just because they have a big nose, or wearing jeans that were too short, being poor, being rich, being anyway different from the main crowd.
What he sounded like is that his environment was a major problem and the "powers that be" labeled him as gay and then he assumed the role. I've seen i don't know how many boys raised by a all female house have effeminent personalities, and that is ONLY because they have no male role models to show them how to act. Granted this is not a constant, but it is a major factor as it is what happens today.
Lets get to the violence, i have pointed out that you can have a big nose, or a funny name. HOW ONE ACTS around the kids determines the continued reaction of the kids. IF you get all angry and upset, their going to yank your chain constantly.
I used to have kids all through my kid years used to pick at me with my name. They used to call me cruiser. It didn't take me long to capitalize on that and change their actions almost overnight. I would just laugh and start singing
....
You're going to fly away,
glad you're goin my way
I love it when we're cruising together
The music is played for love
cruisin is made for love
I love it when we're cruisin together.
You see, it immediately got half the kids singin along and everyone laughing. One problem i have noticed is that kids no longer have the ability to resolve problems. Used to be couple guys get into a fight, we would knock each other silly until one quit and then it was over with, and we would go on having resolved the problem. Now days, the adults send you to therapy to suppress your feelings of frustration and agression and all that does is build up inside and it comes out 100 times worse than if you just let em scrap it out.
Goes back to a phrase, "quit yourself like men" Well todays society has emasculated, psycholocially castrated boys so that they cannot become men, and essentially you end up with effeminate men, or you end up with very violent men who have suppressed the aggression so long it comes out in a burst of violence.
And when you have adults telling kids its ok to be gay, then you end up with the effeminate ones that are so confused that they think they are and submit to the indoctrination that is being laid on them.
As far as a 7 year old being gay, sorry but no they aren't. They haven't even come into their sexual nature. They have no understanding of the concept.
QuoteAnd if it were something that a person is born with, and has no choice in the matter, then how do you explain a person that goes from a gay lifestyle to straight
?
That's easy - they're choosing a different lifestyle. ;)
As far as being born gay - I wasn't there. I didn't meet this child until he was 7, and at that time he was gay. He was adopted as an infant into a very loving, Christian family. That adoption failed when he tried to kill his little sister. Social services were very involved in the families he lived with. There was no abuse by them. One of his school principals, in describing a conversation with him, said all of a sudden there was an aura of pure evil emanating from the student.
Couple of problems there Mom..
First, Social Services have a very long track record of being very wrong. As seen by the numbers of foster children that suffer abuse that goes overlooked. As well as the number of children that are taken from good homes because of a perceieved "abuse" (ghild was spanked or sent to bed without supper etc).
Second, "aura of pure evil"...from a 7yr. old...give me a break.
Third, "...they're choosing a different lifestyle." Exactly, homosexuality is a choice.
Varmit,
Unless at sometime in the past you had a moment where you chose not to be gay you really don't know what you are talking about.
Did you choose to be straight? When you were an adolescent did you have a moment when you thought' " hmmm. gay or straight? Which one should I be?" Nobody chooses their sexual orientation. I was 11 years old when I knew I was gay. It was not a choice. What 11 year old would choose to be ridiculed, despised and spit upon by society? As for as people going from gay to straight I don't buy that. There are a lot of homosexuals out there who cannot accept who they are because it has been beat over their heads that they are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG and they want to appear "normal". So they go through programs like Exodus which claims it can change gay people to straight. They are indoctrinated to choose being straight. And that choice goes against their true nature.
QuoteThat's easy - they're choosing a different lifestyle. Wink
That was a joke.
It's possible there are some people that choose the gay lifestyle.
In my experience, though, gays are that way because that's how their inner self feels.
It's not my place to judge them right or wrong, or try to change them. You can't change the inner self.
My task is to love them as people of God, to find and respond to that of God within them. That's what I'm supposed to do with everyone I meet, gay or straight.
Yes, Varmit - abuse happens in foster homes as well as birth homes. My daughter was an emergency adoption because she was being abused in yet again another foster home. She had been abused in her birth home and her previous adoption. There is no doubt abuse happens in all kinds of homes.
However, the young man I'm talking about was NOT abused in his foster or adoptive homes. Birth home before adoption or foster care? Who knows.
QuoteSecond, "aura of pure evil"...from a 7yr. old...give me a break.
At least two people have felt that aura. I'm one of them. It really rocked and scared me. The boy was 10 or 11 at the time. I tried explaining it to my husband at the time, but he didn't feel it so there was no comprehension. It wasn't until just a couple of years ago that the principal and I were talking. I was actually relieved to find someone else that knew what I had felt; I think the principal was also relieved to know he wasn't alone.
Varmit, there has been a lot of research being done on the genes of families who have multiple homosexual members and they have found some oddities on several of the chromosomes. Unfortunately these studies take a lot of time because genes come from both parents and there are so many variables. The results so far aren't good enough to make a statement about. But perhaps some day they will learn enough to find out what oddity there is that turns on homosexuality and at what age. As it is now it seems to be at many ages, some much earlier than I would have ever thought.
Quote from: Mom70x7 on July 17, 2010, 09:25:51 AM
That was a joke.
It's possible there are some people that choose the gay lifestyle.
In my experience, though, gays are that way because that's how their inner self feels.
It's not my place to judge them right or wrong, or try to change them. You can't change the inner self.
My task is to love them as people of God, to find and respond to that of God within them. That's what I'm supposed to do with everyone I meet, gay or straight.
Yes, Varmit - abuse happens in foster homes as well as birth homes. My daughter was an emergency adoption because she was being abused in yet again another foster home. She had been abused in her birth home and her previous adoption. There is no doubt abuse happens in all kinds of homes. However, the young man I'm talking about was NOT abused in his foster or adoptive homes. Birth home before adoption or foster care? Who knows.
At least two people have felt that aura. I'm one of them. It really rocked and scared me. The boy was 10 or 11 at the time. I tried explaining it to my husband at the time, but he didn't feel it so there was no comprehension. It wasn't until just a couple of years ago that the principal and I were talking. I was actually relieved to find someone else that knew what I had felt; I think the principal was also relieved to know he wasn't alone.
That sounds like demon possession to me. and yes it is possible for 7 year olds to be possessed. I wouldn't doubt that it could have happened being that he was in the foster system which is a tool of satan to destroy families. I have no use, no good thing to say of dfacs, or srs or whatever you wish to call them. All they are doing is warehousing children.
Well its pretty simple to me, the scripture tells us we are born in a sin nature. So it would seem to be a normal choice to be gay. Being unsaved, there is no boundaries no limitations since your unbelief has only 1 result. Death. So i can see how someone might believe they are gay from birth. What reality is though, its not gay from birth but sinner from birth and the lifestyle is accepted by unbelievers. There is only a problem when the individual tries to reconcile it when they are convicted of their sin nature through hearing the word. That is why it is so upsetting to them when God says its an abomination, unnatural, ect, they haven't repented. Without repentence there is no remission of sin. What that means is unless you repent, you cannot be saved. What does repentence mean? Turn away from. Once you have turned away from that life and chosen Gods way, then you can be saved.
No, tdub, I never had to make that "choice". I was created by God, and He doesn't make things to be an abomination unto Himself. Thats why the help He made for Adam was a woman, not another man.
As for the inner self...it CAN be changed. If it couldn't then we ALL would be hell bound. We, ourselves cannot change it, not without Christ.
Sigh
Steve, if living in a female dominate household makes a boy feminine, how do you explain masculine behaving girls? And for what it is worth, there is homosexuality in all the animal world. How do you explain that if it is such an abomination?
And yet more that needs to be on the Religion board...Not here...
Varmit wanted it moved for his own reasons. (whispering..and you know he gets what he wants) ;)
Quote from: sixdogsmom on July 17, 2010, 01:42:59 PM
Steve, if living in a female dominate household makes a boy feminine, how do you explain masculine behaving girls? And for what it is worth, there is homosexuality in all the animal world. How do you explain that if it is such an abomination?
As to your first question, environment.
second question Animals are not humans. The world, animals and heavens were created for humans. For a human to resort to animalistic impulses debases Gods greatest creation.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on July 17, 2010, 01:42:59 PM
Steve, if living in a female dominate household makes a boy feminine, how do you explain masculine behaving girls?
Simple....Penis envy.
QuoteAnd for what it is worth, there is homosexuality in all the animal world. How do you explain that if it is such an abomination?
Wrong. There is bi-sexual behavior. For example, Hyenas will "mate" with just about any gender espcially when the pack females come into heat. However, I challenge you to find the species of animal that is born homosexual.
P.S. That challenge was rethorical, you can't do it.
Gene study, taking a long time? I can shorten this up. Anyone who has several homosexuals in their family, you just do not marry that girl or that guy (if you're a girl), that way we can put an end to the homosexuals to get rid of the corrupt gene pool. This just coming from a redneck, imbred from the midwest who don't give a damn where I talk about God, whether it's in politics or a religious site. I can say the word GOD where I want to.
MR.
Here's news about an outfit that still calls itself a church:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/07/09/1552138/church-oks-gay-lesbian-clergy.html
Freud's theory of penis envy was discounted long ago.
The only time I have had penis envy was on a picnic with no ladies room in sight! ;D ;D
;D
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 17, 2010, 02:36:00 PM
Varmit wanted it moved for his own reasons. (whispering..and you know he gets what he wants) ;)
Miss Diane....You have pissed on the wrong tree.................................................... >:(
That statement was totally uncalled for..
yep..I'm ticked.. but I will get over it.................
Oh, for crying out loud, we had been kidding back and forth. GET OFF IT! YOU can't possibly be any more pissed than I am sister. I have had entirely enough of this. Varmit is still at too. Next you'll be after Cat.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 21, 2010, 09:33:38 PM
Oh, for crying out loud, we had been kidding back and forth. GET OFF IT! YOU can't possibly be any more pissed than I am sister. I have had entirely enough of this. Varmit is still at too. Next you'll be after Cat.
Diane that was really a cheap shot against Teresa and Catwoman. Teresa is very serious and careful about admonishing people on the Forum amd Catwoman sure didn't deserve that. I have never seen anyone put Catwoman down and her posts are always in good taste. You just don't get it.