Author Topic: SOLD ACW era Carbine  (Read 7122 times)

Offline Ozark Iron John

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SOLD ACW era Carbine
« on: March 09, 2006, 10:32:29 am »


Howdy there Soldier boys!  My nephew is getting into the local American Civil War re-enactment group (Shelby's Fifth) and he needs a longgun.  We're not too particuliar about make, model and/or caliber, but it's gotta be time period correct and cheap.  I doubt he'll ever shoot any lead out of it.  He's only gonna use it for BP blanks during re-enactments.  He's a mounted trooper in the Trans-Mississippi theater, so if you've got something gathern dust in the gunsafe, and you think it might work for him, why don't you pitch me a PM and we can talk about it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 10:31:04 pm by Ozark Iron John »

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Offline Books OToole

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2006, 10:52:07 am »
During the 1864 Price raid into Missouri, nearly the entire Confederate force was cavalry.  They were mistaken as infantry because they were predominately armed with (infantry) Enfields.

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Offline Major 2

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2006, 11:09:52 am »
Shelby's Fifth ?   would that be Scott Hughes Unit ? ... and Ol Doug Slone in the eighties...

I rode with and against them many times with My 2nd Florida & the 7 Ill.


an Artillery Enfield would be easier to carry on horseback and correct.... and price attractive ( Sharps are HIGH $$$ )

An old doner Zouave rifle will make a good 55 Springfield clone ( when cut down, defarbed and modfied ) I've done a few.




when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2006, 11:12:58 am »


Thank you Books.  Are you talking about the 1853 Three-Band Enfield .58 Cal. rifle?  Would a mounted infantry or cavalry trooper in Missouri have carried a bayonett too?

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>:(    - Ozark Iron John cir. 1876

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Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2006, 11:20:55 am »
Yes, Col. S. Hughes is the Commander.

Do you prefer this'n?



1858 2-Band Enfield .58 cal. Musket

or this'n?



1861 Enfield .577 cal. Musketoon
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 11:25:01 am by Ozark Iron John »

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Offline Books OToole

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2006, 11:29:55 am »
Yes, it should be the 3 barrel band Enfield rifle.

I am not an expert on Confedeate arms.  I am an expert on the 11th Kansas Vol. Reginment.  My knowledge is based on the accounts of the 11th and their discription of how their adversaries were armed.  They chased Shelby all over the state in 1863 but never closed in battle with his "brigade."

It is my belief that Confederate Cav. would not carry the bayonet.  Their primary weapon(s) would be revolvers.  By the mid to late war, especially in the Trans-Mississippi west, sabres were considered a nuisance.

Since the re-enactors do not always carry what is historically documented, I would consult with the powers that be in any unit before spending money.  I believe that Scott Hughes is the head honcho of Shelby's Fifth.

Books
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 11:36:15 am by Books OToole »
G.I.L.S.

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Offline El Confederado

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2006, 03:46:25 pm »
Ozark John,
Well you walked into my area. Cool, well here we go pard.
If he is mounted you have all the options in the world as out west the Confederacy used about everything under the sun and well we used it real good , hehehehe.
1st option is a shotgun, used alot by raiders in the west
2nd, any cut down smooth bore musket or the .577 Enfield musketoon.
3rd,the 1841 Mississippi Rifle or even a Zouave rifle as they are the same rifle
4th, many of the mounted units used what they had, so any muzzle loader used at home, such as shortend Kentucky's, Hawkens Rifles and the such.

The thing to remember that many folks forget is that the Confederacy in the west was like a bastard child to the east and they never received anythig as far as mass supplies like the ANV, so run with it.Think like a bushwacker, act like a buskwacker, look like a bushwacker. I hope this helps ya.Oh and stay away from bayonets and sabres as the D-handle bowie and the tomahawk was used more out here, also one needs to remember, these boys carried alot of pistols, so keep that in mind.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 03:49:09 pm by El Confederado »
Colonel J.M." El Confederado" Rodriguez II,
Former Commander Department of the Pacific,GAF
Major,8th Texas Cavalry,*Colonel,1st Louisiana Zouaves" Coppens Zouaves",*Capt, 1st Louisiana Zouave Cavalry
Former Staff Sergeant  US Army 3rd ACR and 7th Cavalry trooper

Offline Major 2

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2006, 06:55:36 pm »
whoa...


El Confederado has a point and is correct to that point ...

BUT

In todays reenactments , Shotguns are discouraged, in fact most events & units ( including Scott Hugues's 5th Missouri ) won't allow them. It been that way for 25 + years.
Yes, they carried shotguns , reenactors CAN NOT .

Your good with option #2

Maybe option #3
with the Mississippi armed Mounted troops , But Zouaves are also banned at events ( unless they are cut down into a carbine & modified)

Hawken & Kentucky's are not allowed either....

Just an FYI




 
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Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2006, 07:19:57 pm »
Yeah, I know'd that about Hawkenses and Kentucky's.  I didn't know it about Zouaves and shotguns though.  Thank ya, sir.

I'm pretty seriously after one of them used 1858 2-Band Enfields.  I sure hope one of my CAS buddies has one he'll sell cheap.

"Wrap my Body in a Bonnie Blue Flag and bury me with my Feet in the South!"
>:(    - Ozark Iron John cir. 1876

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2006, 08:06:47 pm »
Why not put a WTB classified ad on this BB ?

Maybe another at SASS wire...

when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2006, 08:28:15 pm »
I figure most folks that'll have such a thing watch GAF.

I put one on SASS Wire Classifieds and Authentic Campaigner earlier today.  We'll see!

I've got a line on a brand new 3 band Enfield for $350.  I probably oughta go ahead and get it, but I thought I'd swing through town once first.

"Wrap my Body in a Bonnie Blue Flag and bury me with my Feet in the South!"
>:(    - Ozark Iron John cir. 1876

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Offline Frenchie

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2006, 12:11:01 am »
The 1841 Springfield is a .52 caliber two-band rifle and was made starting in 1842. It was used most notably by Mississippi troops commanded by Jefferson Davis in the War with Mexico and so is usually called the Mississippi rifle. Some of them were bored out and rifled to .58 caliber and used in the War of the Rebellion.

It is not the same as the Remington contract rifle (aka Zouave), which was made from 1863 to 1865, was .58 caliber, and was never issued for service.

The '55 Springfield rifle has a Maynard patent tape primer integral with the lockplate and a longer barrel than a Zouave - modifying a Zouave rifle to look like a '55 Springfield would be only slightly easier than making a '55 Springfield entirely from scratch.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 12:15:19 am by Frenchie »
Yours, &c.,

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2006, 08:43:38 am »
ummm ! Frenchie

Thank you for your PM....

But, you are assuming I was referring to the 55 US Precussion Rifle-Musket which indeed had a Maynard primer system.

If you recall , I said,
"An old doner Zouave rifle will make a good 55 Springfield clone ( when cut down, defarbed and modified ) I've done a few."

Being the youngman was mounted ( as I know Scott Hugues's 5th Missouri is ) I was referring to the...

1855 Springfield US Rifled Carbine - 22 inch,  one band , swivel ramrod "and the sole variant in the model 1855 US martial arms group made for manual priming and thus lacking the Maynard tape system"
quoting Norm Flayderman pg. 423 (with photo)  of my copy of Flayderman's Guide.

Once converted the doner Zouave when cut down, defarbed and modified , will make a good 55 Springfield Rifled Carbine
(and the few is over a dozen )

sorry for the confusion !

BTW...

"It is not the same as the Remington contract rifle (aka Zouave), which was made from 1863 to 1865, was .58 caliber, and was never issued for service"

I think El Confederado meant when he said,
"Mississippi Rifle or even a Zouave rifle as they are the same rifle"

was referring to the reproductions by Palmetto .. in that they use many common parts in variation to produce both the Mississippi & Zouave repo's.





when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Guns Garrett

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2006, 12:25:45 pm »
I know it is documented that John Hunt Morgan's cavalry used 2-band Enfields, but don't know of any others.  They are much better balanced than the 3-band rifled musket, and handier on a horse, as well.  Not as handy as a carbine or musketoon, though.

I've seen notices of upcoming CW reenacting events that have a notice, or disclaimer (or whatever), that states "No two-band rifles/muskets will be allowed".  I was under the impression that Springfields and '53 Enfields were NOT the only shoulder weapons used.

Ozark:  I have a 2-band Enfield that I could let go, if'n your interested.  Send me a PM if you are.
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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2006, 02:35:36 pm »
Guns

Is a matter of safety ear & eye protection as far as the banning two banders.
Infantry fires in ranks, That's their show , that and marching.
They don't want short guns, particularly the Carbines & and/or the shorter two banders in ranks.
One can't fall in with most Infantry units with a Henry. Show up with a Sharps Rifle and you can't fall in.
If you have one of these they will stick you on a distant flank away from the ranks.
They (Inf.) discourage pistols as well at Reenactments , same reason.
In fact the Inf. would like to discourage (pistols in plurals) among Cavalry, there is a movement to that end.
I have no idea how they will accept the new Roots Revolving Rifle or the Spencers.

Two banders ,Roots Revolving Rifle or the Spencers were issued to Companies of Infantry historically.

Your two band Enfield for Cavalry is fine though, great in fact, having dismounted and fighting on foot.
A little unwieldy on Horseback , but doable.

As a mounted cavalryman for 28 years, I carried as a Trooper a Sharps & on occasion a Henry, a saber and one pistol.
As an officer,  I carried  3 pistols ( 2 in pommal holsters ) and the saber for years.

I also carried a Halls as a Dragoon in Tex/Mex events, and a Springfield carbine 45/70 in Indian war events.
Even a Kreg in some Span/Am events in 1997- 99.

Oh! and an 1812 Springfield Flintlock in a War of 1812 event.

 ;D what's the line ?   been there,  done that... got the T-shirt   ;D


« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 02:37:57 pm by major231 »
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline El Confederado

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2006, 04:00:57 pm »
Y'all know the real problem with alot of organizations anymore, it is that they have a cookie cutter ideal of what the armies carried and wore and that is it.I have found also that alot of these organizations have a real worry wort problem with certain weapons, hell look at even SASS these days.But the real thing that sticks in my craw is that people forget the the Confederate Army of the Trans Mississippi was an army of irregular troops for the most part, they were from the poorer classes unlike alot of the ANV and they fought with what they brought or could kill some Yankee to get his off him.Oh well, just my little rant about most re-enactment organizations these days, uniformity before accuracy, not this ole rebel.
Colonel J.M." El Confederado" Rodriguez II,
Former Commander Department of the Pacific,GAF
Major,8th Texas Cavalry,*Colonel,1st Louisiana Zouaves" Coppens Zouaves",*Capt, 1st Louisiana Zouave Cavalry
Former Staff Sergeant  US Army 3rd ACR and 7th Cavalry trooper

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2006, 06:21:46 pm »
cookie cutter regulations, insurance fears, ignorance have alway been part of the organizers delima.

I attended a Rev War event in the early eighties. It was a big one on the 4th. of July .
 Ronald Reagan was to make a speech, so security was locked down.

Sarah Brady, made a comment on National TV news , and repeated by ABC, CBS & NBC etal.

In essence she stated ...all reenactment show be outlawed .. " what was to prevent the reenactors from spraying the crown with machine guns "

not an exact quote but that's close !

 the real problem ...
LAWYERS & INSURANCE & and the liberal ying-yangs that make it their money making business to protect you from yourself.


when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2006, 08:19:48 pm »
I know'd I was fishing in the right stream when I asked you fellers.  I sincerely appreciate the contributions to this thread.  Thank Ya'll.

PM is on the way Guns!  I PM'd you too Frenchie!

I ain't bought one yet fellers.  If'n youins has got one you'll let go of cheap, send me a PM and we'll work something out.

"Wrap my Body in a Bonnie Blue Flag and bury me with my Feet in the South!"
>:(    - Ozark Iron John cir. 1876

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Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2006, 08:58:57 pm »
Guns!  Where are you sir?  I've PM'd ya twice and sent an e-mule or two as well. 
Please don't leave me hangin!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 09:02:50 pm by Ozark Iron John »

"Wrap my Body in a Bonnie Blue Flag and bury me with my Feet in the South!"
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Offline Guns Garrett

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Re: WTB ACW era Carbine
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2006, 09:38:32 pm »
Ozark,
I was out of the house Sat nite and all day yesterday. PM sent a few minutes ago.
Guns
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Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: SOLD ACW era Carbine
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2006, 10:30:22 pm »
I'm outta the market fellers.  Guns and I has got a deal.

"Wrap my Body in a Bonnie Blue Flag and bury me with my Feet in the South!"
>:(    - Ozark Iron John cir. 1876

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Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: SOLD ACW era Carbine
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2006, 07:31:00 am »
My uncle Walt is a rural mail carrier for the USPS.  He just called and said I've gotta package from Coffeyville, Kansas in the Post Office.  "What da'ya want me to do with it?"

I said, "I'll be right thar!"

Yee!  Haaw!  I gots a new gun guys!  Yeee!  Haaaw!

"Wrap my Body in a Bonnie Blue Flag and bury me with my Feet in the South!"
>:(    - Ozark Iron John cir. 1876

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Offline Dr. Bob

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Re: SOLD ACW era Carbine
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2006, 12:41:51 pm »
OIJ,

Congrats!  Be sure ya hava a bandana handy to wipe the drool off so ya don't get any rust spots. ::) ;D ::)
Regards, Doc
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Offline Ozark Iron John

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Re: SOLD ACW era Carbine
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2006, 09:23:56 am »
Oh Man!  Oh Man!  Oh Man!

This gun is sweet!



Thankya Guns Garrett.  If'n there's anything I can ever do for you ......... Sir!


"Wrap my Body in a Bonnie Blue Flag and bury me with my Feet in the South!"
>:(    - Ozark Iron John cir. 1876

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