Author Topic: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.  (Read 1352 times)

Offline Mako

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It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« on: April 02, 2024, 07:41:34 PM »
Crow Choker was right, it is awfully dead in here.

So we have 4 choices:
  • Everyone thinks they already know everything 
  • Everyone is talked out
  • There's very little new in the realm of Holy Black pistolas, rifles and shooterguns for you to talk about 
  • You're holding your shots because powder, caps and boolits are dear 
  • You're lamenting the loss of good sources of boolits suitable for the Holy black stuff
So which is it?

~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2024, 09:44:35 PM »
Mostly 2. And 3.!  Where have you been,Pard.Since 2011?
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Offline hellgate

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2024, 10:54:00 PM »
It's mostly #4. I'm running low on caps and have been forced to use suppository shooters (pistols that load from the rear) for my CAS matches instead of my perCUSSIN' pistols.
"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

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Offline Mako

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2024, 11:33:02 PM »
Mostly 2. And 3.!  Where have you been,Pard.Since 2011?
Helping those that helped us, and unfortunately it's still not over.

Figured by now y'all would have sumthin to talk about.  I have been hearing more and more about this new fangled stuff that uses a nitric acid derived base to push boolits down the bore.  Seems wrong to me...maybe that's where all the boys have gone, they've lost their love of the Holy Black.  They've lost their way, been beguiled by the siren song of 19th, nay 20th century technology!  Believe it or not there are guns that actually reload themselves now, self loaders they call them.  I've seen them with my own eyes, terrible they were.

Surely, everything hasn't been solved.  Has nothing been a topic of interest?

~Mako
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MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2024, 04:58:34 AM »
Helping those that helped us, and unfortunately it's still not over.

Figured by now y'all would have sumthin to talk about.  I have been hearing more and more about this new fangled stuff that uses a nitric acid derived base to push boolits down the bore.  Seems wrong to me...maybe that's where all the boys have gone, they've lost their love of the Holy Black.  They've lost their way, been beguiled by the siren song of 19th, nay 20th century technology!  Believe it or not there are guns that actually reload themselves now, self loaders they call them.  I've seen them with my own eyes, terrible they were.

Surely, everything hasn't been solved.  Has nothing been a topic of interest?

~Mako

Nitric Acid!?!?
In MY bore !?!?
Heaven forfend!

I imagine, but cannot prove, that the lack of posting is due to a number of lamentable issues,
Some of which you have enumerated….

Allow me to babble further:

1) lack of resources….
 The various conflagrations around our sphere lead to primer and cartridge shortages
Then powder shortages 5en primers and percussion caps (again) then the Great Pandemic
Which is still mutating and mak8ng folks sick….

I myself was about to resort to my secret fallback: a stash of about 10,000 plastic toy caps from germany,
Which , whilst corrosive, do contain enough juice to reliabley ignite 3f in my revolvers, as long as one seats them fully and carefully with a dowel….

2) lack of shooting venues…. Well, see above. Those who are fortunate and resourceful enough to arrange their own range are better off than most…. I myself have reverted to shooting a 1911 CO2 blowback bb gun and an 1873 SA CO2 revolver in my garage, using rigid foam in heavy cardboard boxes which allow for easily resettable targets and collection of BBs for reuse, as well as keeping the muscle memory going.

Prior to primers becoming unobtainium, I have also manufactured Hot Glue Bullet Cartridges, by drilling out case primer holes and using (at the time ) available LP primers. Allowed use of any revolver, short range ~ 10 yards, but quite accurate. Until 5e primers disappeared. Thes are like wax bullets, no powder.

Since shotshell primer are still available, I have been experimenting with those. I found that those are so powerful they will accurately shoot a  well lubed .30 cal rifle bullet, no powder, to 20 yards accurately, and stick said bullet in a 2x4.

Howver I did not expect to have much discussion over such topics.

3) we are (mostly) all getting old and/or sick and/or fambly memembers suffering suchly.
I myself have been expending most of my waking moments assisting Mrs Marvel ( She Who Must Be Obeyed )
In her efforts to continue her journey through this portion of the Wheel Of Dharma, re: horspital excursions, knee replacemnts, pamonia, caract surgicalness, partial toothless… oh and my Dad just died mid march. Not unexpected, at 97 he went out on his own terms!

Soooo people been busy with the Karmic Wheel Of Fortune around here.

Yhs
Prof mumbles

PS I  currently have 2 Big  Lube molds in .45 but am actually interested in a mold that would shoot well
Out of an a percussion .36 Colt …

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Online Froogal

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2024, 08:11:25 AM »
Just setting here, waiting on better weather to arrive. 4 NEW targets are built, just waiting to be broken in, and I have 200 rounds of 44-40 loaded with the good stuff, and also some 45 colts with similar loads. The wind has been so strong lately that ALL of the black smoke would blow away before I have a chance to really appreciate it.

Offline Dave T

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2024, 09:10:56 AM »
I'm getting so old and broken it hurts to reload, shoot, then clean the guns and brass. No one wants to hear about that. And because of all that crap I'm not shooting my BP cartridge guns much if at all. So, nothing to post but hot wind, which I've done enough of over the years I've been here.

Suspect there are quite a few in the same leaky boat (canoe) as myself,
Dave

Offline Galloway

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2024, 09:49:19 AM »
My shooting has slowed down because of parents buying kids atvs and the new outdoor lifestyle marketing. They can venture deeper into the american desert than i ever got and around every corner is a group of 5 to 10 people mag dumping an AR. The animals have left and its just not the woods bumming playground its always been for me.

Offline Kent Shootwell

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2024, 10:32:03 AM »
I found this site after starting shooting CAS a while. I got into the sport to enjoy the Wild West fantasy that began in childhood. As we got into it I added spurs, chaps, pocket watch and such. Guns and leather stayed true to my idea of cowboys of old and gunfights that you had to win. It wasn’t long before the sport changed to light springs, short strokes and cartridges that made less sound than some of my body functions! The targets got larger and closer and boring. The romance was gone but the interest in it remains. This site had a lot of information about the guns and accessories with a bit of history. Mako’s posts added a lot of data along with some others. I was never interested in competition for the sake of competition, it was the old western fantasy that holds my heart.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2024, 02:15:12 PM »
Howdy Mako, long time no see!  I think all the reasons you mentioned are part of it.  I'm still shooting almost every weekend.  With the closer and bigger targets, it is a different kind of fun, but still fun for me.  I went from shooting mostly BP to more smokeless than BP, but now that my mom has passed and I will have some more time, I'll be shooting the smoky stuff more often.

There seems to be plenty of components now, except for percussion caps.  Seems the type that fits everybody's custom nipples are not available.  Doesn't bother me, though, I'm a cartridge guy.  Dick Dastardly seems to have retired his biglube mold business, and Springfield Slim retired from casting them, but there's a guy - I forget his alias - on the SASS Wire who has started casting some of those.  My longest barrels are 20" so I don't really need the additional lube.

There are a number of new people shooting in the BP categories these days, but the big majority of them are using APP, for a number of reasons.  Because it is so easy, with any bullets, they do not have to do the research on loading components and techniques, and don't really care about the historical aspects (I'm speaking in generalities here), so not much to discuss really.

Hey, I don't think you ever saw these videos from 2008(?).  When I started putting videos on youtube a couple years ago, starting with some converted from vhs, I sent you a message through this site, but don't know if you ever got it.  Cap'n'ball gunfighter, gotta respect that!




Offline Mako

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2024, 02:30:13 PM »
Oh no, that just reminds me of how fat and out of shape I was!  I literally weigh 50 pounds less than that now.  Lighter than my prime, and less muscle mass, but still mean.  I can even wear my uniform from 30 years ago again for the Birthday Ball and look good.  I had to get back into fighting trim and it still isn't enough to hump it up and down the mountains for days at a time.  I need to leave that to the younger men.  It's hard to admit but it's true.

~Mako
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MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Offline Mako

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2024, 03:08:16 PM »
Professor,
I can’t help with all of your travails but I can perhaps help with your search for a suitable bullet for your .36 caliber percussion revolver.  I’m assuming it is still in a loose powder configuration?

I guess it has been a long time now but at one time (15 years ago) Dick and others were discussing a .36 caliber bullet similar to the EPP-UG 150gr bullet for the .44 caliber cap and ball revolvers.  I sketched one up and sent it to him (it might actually be somewhere here on the forum).  I haven’t shot my navy models or Leech and Rigdons for quite some time now.  I got burned at a match when a bank of falling plates wouldn’t fall when hit with a standard 80gr round ball. The plates were supposed to be calibrated to a wimpy .38spl load, but they weren’t…

I actually designed this one back in 2009 and we talked about it on the forum:

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=25330.0

It ended up with a smaller grease groove to make sure there was enough of the rebated portion to fit all of the goofy iterations of Navy pattern (.36 cal) that are out there. Perfect example of getting a Camel from a committee trying to design a horse.

Look at Attachment #1 below:
You can tell the bullet was actually meant to be a .380 diameter because the groove depth is .320 (0.03 per side, the max Tom will cut)

Now look at Attachment #2 below:
This is the revision I wanted, note the height is a bit more and the groove is longer for more lube, but it will sit a bit higher and not go under some barrel extensions when rotated.  This is from March of 2009.  The catalog item is (rev 2.3+something other), it got confusing and we got our camel.

But…it works and beats most of the gamer .38spl loadings when loaded with a charge allowing the bullet to be seated 1/16th below the front of the chamber.  I apologize, but I can’t remember the charge for my revolvers (they are all Uberti).  It’s not a lot of powder but it booms and smokes.

You can order this today, it’s the catalog number 38-135C (make sure you get your dropped diameter right).  With soft lead you can size it easily down to .375, or less if you have tighter cylinder chambers from a Ø.380 cast bullet.  I don’t size, the chamfer lead in on the bottom just shears off a couple of rings.  You can actually get the body diameter about any diameter you want, you just request it at order, but be aware the groove depth will never be deeper than 0.03”.

No leading, doesn’t foul and pleasant to shoot.

OR…if you are interested in a .36 caliber EPP-UG scaled down bullet look at Attachment #3 below.

There are several more choices with heeled bases now on his site.  15 years ago there weren’t any.  I think these two are you best choices.  I noticed someone even decided to modify the 38-135C design and make it a short 100gr bullet.  Well, to each his own… However the heavy 135gr seems to be the most popular by his order numbers.

One last question though, which of the .45 Big Lube molds do you have?

~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Offline Mako

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2024, 03:28:43 PM »
For those of you looking for a EPP-UG mold for your .44s

There is also a copy of the EPP-UG bullet for the .44 Cap & Ball revolvers but specify what heel diameter you actually need.  I guess someone wanted an EPP-UG and couldn’t get one. Look at Attachment #1 below.

Look at Attachment #2 Below:
I have 3 pairs of ’60 reproductions and an original.  I grabbed one and tried some pin gages.  It wasn’t until I got to Ø.487 that the chambers would accept a pin. You could not easily start a bullet.  The diameter would be better at Ø.445.

This isn’t the only mold in his catalog of this type, there is another one which has a heeled rebate of  Ø.450.  There is no practical difference between the two otherwise.

You could ask for the rebate to be reduced to the size (less a few thousandths) you measure on your chambers.  Tom has thoughtfully included the heel diameter in his order information.  So for me I would order a body diameter of Ø.454 +.002/-.000 and a heel diameter of Ø.445 +.000/-.002.  He actually has it set up to accommodate your needs.

~Mako
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MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2024, 04:23:00 PM »
Between the cold and wet and ECSASS cancelling shoots whats there to yak about. Quiet everywhere. A lot of gun forums are slow these days. I’ve started on a 1917a1 dummy gas gun. Been accumulating parts for a while but finally decided to spend some of my son’s inheritance and jump in the deep end. I would have loved to invest in a 1917a1 semi but I can buy propane easier than large rifle primers. And no reloading. Going to try to use as much real deal parts as I can afford without any internals or actual sn’ed atf stuff. Just a 1917a1 top cover with a complete sight will run 850.00 [only one that I found]. The carriage was very pricey. Feel free to move this to the Wild Bunch forum. Didn’t realize I had wandered into the Holy Black.
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Offline Navy Six

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2024, 04:37:37 PM »
That Accurate Molds 38-135-C is the bullet I've been using for several years now at Cowboy Matches. In my 36 Navies it provides enough knock down on steel targets that I no longer worry about it. I use about 19 grs. of 3F Swiss and it gets the job done.
As far as some observations about SASS shoots, I don't worry about some of the gamer stuff. For me it is 1869-1875 and I equip myself suitably, whether cap & ball or early black powder cartridge. I am actually doing more shooting/experimenting now than ever and it isn't getting old for me. I guess it helps that I show up for a shoot looking for the buffalo herd and that damn Bill Hickok who owes me 50 bucks!
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Offline Mako

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2024, 05:27:28 PM »
That Accurate Molds 38-135-C is the bullet I've been using for several years now at Cowboy Matches. In my 36 Navies it provides enough knock down on steel targets that I no longer worry about it. I use about 19 grs. of 3F Swiss and it gets the job done.
As far as some observations about SASS shoots, I don't worry about some of the gamer stuff. For me it is 1869-1875 and I equip myself suitably, whether cap & ball or early black powder cartridge. I am actually doing more shooting/experimenting now than ever and it isn't getting old for me. I guess it helps that I show up for a shoot looking for the buffalo herd and that damn Bill Hickok who owes me 50 bucks!
Well good, I'm glad to meet someone who is using it.  I guess I have mold #1.  Which mold material did you get and how many cavities, also what mold size (the physical block size)? 

Tom has more selections for features and options now than he did 15 years ago.  I'd like to talk to someone who is using the brass mold, mine is a 2 cavity aluminum, I wish I had a 4 cavity, but since it was the first one he wanted to make a "pilot production run" with a 2 cavity.  Also we originally didn't have the choice of heel diameters.  Mine is like the drawing at Ø.357, what heel rebate did you order (or was that even an option when you ordered it)?

I hadn't looked at his site in years or that particular mold so you can catch me up on things.  I talked to him last week, I'm working on a .38 spl mold to replace the Snakebite Grease Wagon we can't get any more, but we never talked about the other molds.  However, I am trying to talk him into making .44 and .45 molds to replace the Mav Dutchman and the PRS .45 but I want the deeper 0.05" grooves.  I'm still working on convincing him e just needs a different extension for his cutting bit and use the same holder (he may have to have the extension made).  He limits things to 0.03" groove depth but I pointed out he had the room if he did .38s and .32s he had extra room for his tool holder with the .45 and .44 molds.

On the Grease Wagon replacement, he's already "approved" it I'm just waiting on a link and an assigned catalog number to order it.

I posted about the "new" Grease Wagon style mold over on the Powder Room board. I was doing a simple interweb search when I ran across a post for someone looking for a an original Grease Wagon Mold.  I sort of backed into the forums again because I am looking for molds now that my source for my .38 and .44 BP boolits is gone.

~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Offline DeaconKC

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2024, 09:46:45 AM »
Hello Mako, nice to make your acquaintance. I am just getting ready to try BP [subs, sorry] with going Gunfighter this year. Hope my  45s like it as much as my Unique loads.
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Offline Mako

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2024, 11:14:31 AM »
DeaconKC,
Kansas City?

Which substitute are you going to use?  And, are you planning on using the same bullet with the smokeless powder lube?  Maybe we can make your little venture into less than a "adventure" with some hints.

We all understand real Gunpowder isn't always available to everyone, so don't fret.  But anyone here will tell you that true BP is less of a hassle and actually easier to clean up and usually less of a rust problem.  I think Pyrodex is probably the worst offender.  I still have a partial can from 1975, I may never use it again.  I mean this literally...my BP guns clean easier that any smokeless powder firearm I own.  The bores are bright and shiny after a simple pass through with Moose Milk and a soft bore brush or Bore Snake if I am lazy.

Best to you. (Come to the Dark Side...we have cookies.)

~Mako
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MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Offline Navy Six

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2024, 05:29:34 PM »
Mako, on the 38-135-C I ordered the five cavity aluminum mold. Since my Uberti cylinder chambers are slightly tapered (.372 mouth tapering to .366) I start with a .375 sizing die then hit the bottom band with a .370. This seals real good and loads easy. I left the heel diameter at .357 as it drops in the chamber easy. It also seats deep enough initially that it clears the loading port near the rammer on the 1851s no problem. The 1861s have a little more room in that area. I also use Tom's 38-120-C  heel bullet but since it is a bit taller I like going with the 135-C as it allows a bit more powder in the Navy cylinder.
I've ordered Accurate Molds black powder version for all my Cowboy calibers and love being able to custom order sizes and configurations. All of them beautifully finished. This is important to me as I do a lot of bullet casting. The last one I placed an order on Friday and it arrived the following Tuesday!!
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Offline Mako

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Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2024, 08:45:03 PM »
Navy Six,
Thank you.

Do you have any problem with the 5 cavity filling out?  I have a 147gr 9mm 5 cavity aluminum mold from him and it takes me while to get wrinkle free and pretty bullets.  It really doesn't matter as much since I am powder coating them, but I'm almost borderline OCD and wrinkled bullets don't sit well with me.  They are also grooveless which I think adds to the heating  problem (plus that long bearing surface shows any imperfection).

I have no doubt a Uberti Navy of any type (like yours) doesn't have any trouble clearing the rammer or the opening.  That's what all of mine are, I have two '51s, two '61s and a pair of Leech & Rigdon revolvers.  The guys who were reporting loading area problems when we were polling everyone back in '09 had Brass framed frankenpistols of dubious origin.  I didn't believe one guy until he sent me a picture with a caliper showing me the gap distance.  Your revolvers would have cleared the original design with the wider groove (more lube).

I'm sorry you have that taper.  Some people report that and unfortunately the Ubertis appear to have it more than the Pietas or even the Armi San Marcos.  I like the grip shape and finish of the Ubertis better but they almost all suffer from short arbors and too many have tapered chambers.  Do you ever have the bullets move forward from recoil (kind of laughable in a .36 C&B)?  More common with balls than bullets with more bearing surface.

It sounds like your revolver(s) are good candidates for a chamber reamer.  Do you have one revolver or two? You only need to do the first 0.50 Inches. If you have 2 then ream them both the same and 0.001 inches larger than what you have as your largest diameter to get a fresh clean surface. With your reported Ø.372 measurement I would ream it to Ø.373.

Almost all production reamed chambers will ream tapered (except through bores).  .002 is acceptable, .006 is a bit excessive.  I do have a question for you though.  When you say you have taper, do you mean taper or a stepped chamber?  Almost all Percussion revolver cylinders are stepped, this includes the originals.  You don't need more than 1/2 inch to be true and with very little taper. 

I guess I lied, I actually have a few more questions:
  • How are you measuring the bore at the mouth?
  • How are you measuring the  diameter at the bottom?
  • Are the two measurements just the maximum and the minimum?

Look at Attachment #1 below, that is one of my '61 cylinders I just grabbed.  Those gauge pins are Ø.371 for the one sticking out further and Ø.364 fro the deeper one.  The deeper one goes almost all of the way to the bottom of the second stepped hole.  You can't go further unless you use a smaller pin because you are in the area of the rough finish from the end of a blind reamer pocket.  The larger pin is sticking 0.504" down into the chamber.  The last pin I'm not showing but it is a Ø.373 pin and just fits inside the bore, so I call that a .002" total taper for 0.504"  That is good for an Italian Percussion revolver.

Look at Attachment #2, that is actually a model of a '60 cylinder but the .36 calibers are the same, just smaller in diameter.  Notice how it has the smaller stepped diameter that is Ø.4409 and I actually reamed my 2 sets of '60s to Ø.4505 measured diameter with a Ø.4500 reamer.  I was running them 0.7 deep and the 6 chambers on one cylinder averaged  0.0706".  I wanted to show you the step, it's not always obvious when looking down the chamber.

I also think you are going to more trouble than you need to.  You said you first size Ø.375 (what is your "as dropped" size?), then size just the bottom to Ø.370.  I'm curious how you size just the bottom and get it back out of the sizing die without tearing the bullet up.  You can only go part way and it will be stuck pretty good with a swaging of .005".

Have you tried just seating the lubed bullet with your bullet seater?  No sizing, just use them as molded.  The design was made to shear off two rings.  I'm not sure if you actually have taper (or should I say a full taper of .006"), it is probably less. You should determine if you are measuring the step diameter and calling it taper.

So Consider this:
  • With the bullet we are talking about you only have a bit more than 3/16" of bearing engagement from the bottom of the first band to the top of the first where the ogive starts
  • With the 19gr powder load you reported, FFFg will fill your chamber to about .420 below the face of the cylinder 
  • Your bullet is .475" long   
  • So you will have to have a minimum of .055" compression to even be dead flush with the face
  • You should probably run at least a 1/32" below the face, 
That is running it close.  When you reported 19gr I actually thought "he's a better man than I".  I actually load off of the revolver with a loading stand and I think I can get a 3/32th below the face with 16gr (powder starts out a bit over 1/2" below) and I always want a safety margin with a loose powder revolver in case I get bullet movement.  If you truly do have tapered chambers that is more of an issue because bullets back out and will lock you up.(ask me how I know...)

~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

 

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