Author Topic: 30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano  (Read 1328 times)

Offline Reloadin Dan

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30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano
« on: July 30, 2022, 04:42:42 AM »
Hi I want to attempt something different. I want to fill a Carcano case with bp and a plated undersize bullet with no lube. I will fire and run a patch down the bore each shot.

Carcanos have a .268 bore. Projectile available are .264 this is common in the Carcano world to use the smaller bore standard 6.5 projectile.

Once the 160 grain bullet is seated I have enough case space for about 40 grains of 2f. The 30/30 was loaded with about 30 grains if I'm right and it fired a similarly weighted projectile.
 projectile.

The reason for this is one it's never been done and two I have purchased a vetterli which if you know its history was originally chambered in a 10.7 Black powder cartridge later converted to a four-round magazine holding black powder cartridge and once again finally converted in 1915 to accommodate the Carcano smokeless powder round for troops who should probably have a rifle but will probably never fire one. However these rifles made their way to Africa where they were fired and used extensively with full powered smokeless Carcano rounds. The barrel was received to accommodate the 6.5 projectile. However the rifles receiver was always meant for black powder.

So here I am looking at reduced loads for Carcano and I'm realizing that for smokeless you'd need an H4895 or something like that anyway it's a powder that I don't have that's the only one that you can safely reduce charge 60%. And smokeless powders that I do have for it are Winchester 760 and h335 neither of which should be reduced more than 10%.

So again enter my interest in creating a 6.5 Carcano cartridge that is charged with black powder. Later on down the line I will figure out a bullet mold with a suitable Grease ring that I can lubricate properly. For now I'm going to try to run these in the carcanos with the shorter barrel lengths. I'll even try to crony them once I can and I see acceptable results I may try running them through the longer barrel Vetterli. Assuming the Vetterli issafe to shoot at all as it hasn't even arrived yet.


Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2022, 11:12:17 AM »
I make small game rounds  for my hunting rifles. I use smokeless, and I use cast bullets, but not lubed normally.

Years ago a new gunwriter, named Venturino, wrote an article about using TEFLON gasfitters tape wrapped around the bullet. The Teflon proved excellent lubrication, and solved a problem that NRA researchers had long identified, that copper jacketed fouling did  NOT play well with fouling from the ALOX based lube used with most cast bullets. This required thorough barrel cleaning when switching from  cast to jacketed rounds. OK for midrange target use, but impractical when small game offered tasty camp meat. The DIY plumbers tape found in hardware store is a bit flimsy. Talk to a gas fitting professional for a source.

The next thing for small game rounds is find a medium pistol/shotgun powder in the speed range from Greendot to HERCO. Universal is a good choice.  For .30-30. I use 7 to 9 grains while for .308 to 7 x 57, I go up to about 11 grains. While fillers are controversial, I use a quarter sheet of toilet paper or a pinch of soft toy stuffing to hold the powder against the primer.

Sighting a scope sighted rifle for regular use with about a 100 to 200 yard zero will shoot these
small game getters LOW at 25 yards. You must spend some time at the range. A duplex reticle might find using the bottom wire where the dimension changes  a useful point of aim with a 4 power setting.

I may be offering information of use only to the experienced cast bullet shooter but it is based on many years of reading the print off THe RIfLEMAN, when the technical writers were among the most experienced authorities in the US. Lou Venturino reaches the same level currently. Use my information responsibly and check other sources. A search term using "cast bullets" and "rifle" is a start. Cascity has some info from The Grand Army of the Frontier. I am comfortable with my years of experience and have enjoyed chomping on grouse potted in trees where legal, and many rabbits.

P.S. I am not recommending black powder in bottle neck cases. Even in the day, necked cases using BP were problematic.

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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2022, 11:23:49 AM »
Paper patching techniques can be used to bring a smaller bullet up to diameter. My experience with paper is nil, but Teflon  tape can be tried.
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Re: 30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano
« Reply #3 on: Today at 02:12:36 AM »

Offline pony express

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Re: 30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2022, 03:06:48 PM »

Once the 160 grain bullet is seated I have enough case space for about 40 grains of 2f. The 30/30 was loaded with about 30 grains if I'm right and it fired a similarly weighted projectile.
 

The 30-30 started life as a smokeless round, loaded with 30 gr of some kind of smokeless powder. It was never meant for BP. Some bottleneck rounds that were loaded with BP were the .303 British and 8X60R Kropatcheck. I don't know about the 8X60, but the .303 used a compressed pellet of black powder, inserted into the case before the neck/shoulder were formed. Both were changed over to smokeless powder as soon as it was available.

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: 30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2022, 05:02:01 PM »
Sir Charles is spot on.

Undersized "standard" bullets in the 6.5 Carcano led to its reputation for very poor accuracy.


I make small game rounds  for my hunting rifles. I use smokeless, and I use cast bullets, but not lubed normally.

Years ago a new gunwriter, named Venturino, wrote an article about using TEFLON gasfitters tape wrapped around the bullet. The Teflon proved excellent lubrication, and solved a problem that NRA researchers had long identified, that copper jacketed fouling did  NOT play well with fouling from the ALOX based lube used with most cast bullets. This required thorough barrel cleaning when switching from  cast to jacketed rounds. OK for midrange target use, but impractical when small game offered tasty camp meat. The DIY plumbers tape found in hardware store is a bit flimsy. Talk to a gas fitting professional for a source.


Thick Yellow gaspipe teflon tape works a treat for wrapping a lead bullet to size.
Various long distance shooters (and paper patchers)  tried teflon back in the day and have disgarded it,
but for practical purposes it is great and easiers to get good results than with paper patching.

Quote
The next thing for small game rounds is find a medium pistol/shotgun powder in the speed range from Greendot to HERCO. Universal is a good choice.  For .30-30. I use 7 to 9 grains while for .308 to 7 x 57, I go up to about 11 grains. While fillers are controversial, I use a quarter sheet of toilet paper or a pinch of soft toy stuffing to hold the powder against the primer.
...

Unique powder ( as well as Universal) is excellent for this also. the "magic" load for ~ 30 ish cal rifles is ~ 7 to 10 grains.
TP is good, poly toy or pillow stuffing also.
Some folks make a point of elevating the muzzle and giving the stock a tap between shots with reduced loads.

Another advantage is these loads are rather quiet.


Quote
P.S. I am not recommending black powder in bottle neck cases. Even in the day, necked cases using BP were problematic.
Agreed!

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Offline Drydock

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Re: 30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2022, 08:34:53 PM »
FWIW Dept: There is a misconception in the OP.  The .30-30 was never factory loaded with Black Powder.  The 30 refers to a 1st generation smokeless powder.  Like the .30-40 Krag, also never loaded with Black.  This style of nomenclature was soon abandoned for smokeless loadings, but lingers on in these two rounds. 

The Carcano round has an internal volume of 3.0cc, with the .30 WCF (30-30) having an internal volume of 2.45cc    As such using low pressure cast bullet starting loads for the .30-30 is probably a good place to start.  Unique and Red Dot would probably work well in this application. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline mtmarfield

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Re: 30 / 30 like 6.5 Carcano? BP in Carcano
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2022, 01:19:59 AM »
      Greetings!

   Although not well known, some companies did make BP loads for the early smokeless cartridges. Savage, and U.S. Cartridge Co. advertised BP loads for the .30-30W, .25-35W, .25-36M, .303 Savage, .32 MHP, etc. I've seen ads in "Shooting and Fishing", and Ideal #15 Reloading Handbook discusses it.
   My Winchester '94, .30-30 is long gone, but I've been toying with the notion of taking an early Marlin 336, .32 Spl out, and experimenting with various BP loads...
   Keep Us Posted!

                   M.T.M.

 

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