Author Topic: Will subs run in Progressives?  (Read 310 times)

Offline DeaconKC

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Will subs run in Progressives?
« on: January 14, 2022, 11:24:24 AM »
Can APP, BMZ or Triple7 run in powder dispensers in a progressive like a Dillon 550?
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2022, 12:04:35 PM »
I don't think BMZ is SASS - legal, if you care.  APP will work but needs to be 3F, as the 2F is too chunky and will hang up.  And APP has a lot of hygroscopic fines that will need to be cleaned well from the measure or they will gum it up and/or corrode it.  I rarely use APP and dip it when I do.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2022, 04:04:03 PM »
 :)  Well Deacon  ;)

Allow me to leap in here.  First order of business, Black MZ is a fully SASS compliant Sub, Made by the same folks that make APP.  Black MZ as such, has been discontinued.  Black MZ has been reintroduced under the Sportsmans Warehouse moniker (may not be the correct moniker) and is again available under the new label.  Abilene may have been thinking Blackthorn.  Blackthorn is a SASS illegal duplex power, strictly verboten.

I have not personally run Black MZ through a Dillon measure.  The "Old" Black MZ was a fairly coarse granulation but no reason not to try it.

APP 3F will run through a Dillon measure like grain through a goose.  There may be occasional bridging.  I have run APP 3f through my Dillon(s) for thousands of rounds.

APP 2F however, will drive you straight up the wall.  Bridging is terrible and constant.  Not worth the time nor trouble.  I do load 2F for my Brass Shotgun, but DIPPED.

The old formulations of APP suffered from a lot of "fines" that were more like dust.  A true nuisance.  The new formulation does not suffer the "fines."  The older stuff was packaged in light grey/white bottles.  The new stuff is packaged in Charcoal Black bottles.  The old stuff was grey in color and the new stuff is closer to black.

I have never loaded Triple 7.  The manufacturer does not recommend it as a cartridge propellant.  Since I have never loaded with it, I can't comment.  Work on the street says Triple 7 generates somewhat more energy/pressure than either APP or Black Powder.

Your powder measure powder bars and the drop tube will require more frequent cleaning than with that Fad, Heathen Smokeless stuff.  I don't consider running APP to be problematic.  I use it by the CASE.  YMMV

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PS:  Oh wait . . I almost forgot.  The Short answer:  YES

Offline Abilene

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2022, 05:27:26 PM »
Oops.  Yes, I was thinking Blackthorn. 

Good to hear that APP has gotten the fines issue under control.  The bottle I opened in 2013 was getting low  :) , so I bought a bottle from a pard last year, but it was still the white bottle / blue label.

Offline hellgate

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2022, 06:42:48 PM »
I run 3F 777 through my Dillon Square Deal B for my 357 SASS rifles. I know they say don't use 3F 777 in cartridges (2F is OK) but I figured a 357 can handle it. There are few fines but it does occasionally get flipped out and can gum up the works like that teeny little spring loaded ball under the shell plate. 777 is definitely more powderful of a propellant than BP, APP, etc. I'm gonna guess that the velocity of 3F 777 357 mag loads are about 25% faster than BP & the subs.

I'm elated that Black MZ is coming back as my 45/70 loves it.
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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #5 on: Today at 01:40:44 AM »

Offline Abilene

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2022, 08:12:24 PM »
... I'm gonna guess that the velocity of 3F 777 357 mag loads are about 25% faster than BP & the subs. ...

I once loaded 6 rounds of .357's with FFFg BP, plus 4 rounds of 777 in .38's in the tube as well.  I could not tell the difference in recoil shooting them, although the spotters told me the .357's "sounded louder"  :)

Offline hellgate

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2022, 11:38:43 PM »
Abeline,
What I did was shoot at a steel plate 100 yds away with a full cartridge of BP, Black Mag 3, APP, and 3F 777. The time delay to hear the ding was as follows:
BP:  Boom!...........Ding!
BM3: Pow!............Ding!
APP:  Pow!............Ding!
777:  Pow!........Ding!
Very scientific :)
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Offline AntiqueSledMan

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2022, 05:08:00 AM »
Hello DeakonKC,

Before I started loading BlackMZ in my cartridge conversions,
I contacted Alliant and asked if it was safe to use my RCBS Uniflo measure.
The response I received from Alliant was "NO".
I have no idea why not, but I've been using my LEE Dippers ever since.

AntiqueSledMan.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2022, 09:40:46 AM »

 :)  A thought (Owie)  ;)

The original formulation of Black MZ was of a singular granular size.  No 2f or 3f or whatever.  Singular granulation.  That granulation was about the same granulation of APP 2f.  With that granulation, it would be unfunny in powder measures.  I don't know about dangerous, but definitely not fun.

The New stuff that replaces Black MZ may or may not be the same granulation.  I don't know.  Haven't had the inclination to check and see.  I do know the old stuff should drive you up the wall with bridging.

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2022, 05:40:49 PM »
Whilst i have previously discussed my preferences and caveats vis-a-vis Pyrodex and 777, I still will
use them when necessities arise -- ie "I can't get anything else".


Coffin -
i WENT TO THE WEBSITE, AND FOLLOWED THE 77 doco for cases explicitly:
Note that page 2 has catridge data for pistol and rifle...
https://www.nmlra.org/news/hodgdonsubstituteloadingdata

you know what, I am downloading this....

Since 777 is a sub, and is more difficult to ignite, I am not concerned about running it through a powder meter.

During the first great powder shortage, I found no smokeless available but plenty of 777.
I investigated, tested, and found that
- 777 meters nicely
- 777 works fine in straightwall cartridge cases when loaded as advised.
- it ismore energetis than BP as documented, but not significantly compared to smokeless, AND since it is based on black, the curve is "similar" to non-smokeless...
- In the event of nothing else I am willing to use 777 in any straightwall case, and clean very thouroughly
- I would rather use 777 than make my own BP (so far) ....


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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #10 on: Today at 01:40:44 AM »

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Will subs run in Progressives?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2022, 10:34:34 AM »

 :)  Ah, Well  ;)

Obliviously I have been remiss.  When last I visited 777 in print, use in cartridges was not recommended.  Interesting that more recent verbiage provides cartridge load data for 777.  I wouldn't have know that anyway as I don't avail myself of Trip 7 these days.

APP I can address with some authority.  I use it by the case.  Pretty OK with Black MZ too, although I haven't used it since the discontinuance of Black MZ and the emergence of Shooters World Version.  Most if not ALL information available for APP is also applicable to Black MZ and the New and Improved Shooters World version of MZ.

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