Author Topic: Powder burn rate  (Read 1066 times)

Offline Froogal

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Powder burn rate
« on: January 20, 2021, 07:48:17 AM »
I have 2 different charts for the burn rates of smokeless gun powder. Both of them supposedly have the fastest burning powders at the top, down the slowest at the bottom. The 2 charts somewhat agree, but there are some wide discrepancies. One of the charts is from Graf and Sons. I do not know the source of the other chart. For now, I think I will put my trust in the chart from Graf's, but why would there be any discrepancies at all?

For what it's worth, when I reload, I WILL use the recommended powders and weights provided in the LEE manual.

Just curious.

Offline Drydock

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2021, 09:11:22 AM »
I've noticed a number of charts have Red Dot and Bullseye flipped for some reason.  They don't offer much useful info anyway, as the different densities, cross sections and properties of the various  powders with similar rates won't allow safe cross reference.
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Offline Dirty Dick

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2021, 01:27:51 PM »
There may be a discrepancy according to the lot #s of powders tested?
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Offline Froogal

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 03:54:29 PM »
Both charts have Norma R1 as the fastest burning, But one chart has Tightgroup listed in 11th place, and the other chart has Tightgroup in 16th place.

One chart has TrailBoss in 15th place, the other chart has TrailBoss in 22nd place.

Offline Trailrider

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 10:54:35 PM »
What does Hodgdon's say? (I haven't looked.)
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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #5 on: Today at 03:37:46 AM »

Offline Froogal

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2021, 07:39:11 AM »
What does Hodgdon's say? (I haven't looked.)

I've not been able to find a chart on Hodgdon's site.

Offline Bunk Stagnerg

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2021, 10:27:52 PM »
Nothing to add since my shooting is done with an explosive rather than a flammable solid.
How say you Coffinmaker?
Bunk

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2021, 08:30:42 AM »

 :)  Hi Bunk   :D

Well, since you have asked.  A chart of, and knowledge of, Burn Rate is of very limited use.  It does provide information for a number of powders that "may" be useful for a specific application.  Relative "Burn Rate" does NOT mean two powders are interchangeable.  It just means they "may" work for an application.

When switching from Propellant "A" to Propellant "B" it is imperative to use the load data for the Propellant to be used.  Switching blindly may possibly result in a collection of gun "parts."  And/Or serious injury.

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Offline Froogal

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2021, 01:53:16 PM »
Nothing to add since my shooting is done with an explosive rather than a flammable solid.
How say you Coffinmaker?
Bunk

That is the direction I am going. It has been suggested to me that to be able to shoot an entire match with minimal fouling from black powder, that a very small amount of smokeless should go in the case first, with the black on top. Also that the smokeless should be a relatively fast burning powder.

The fellow that suggested that little trick has been shooting black powder for many years. Long before I even knew about cowboy action shooting.

Offline Dave T

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2021, 02:19:50 PM »
You are absolutely free to do what ever you want and to listen to who ever you want. I first started loading black powder in cartridges back in the mid-1980s. I have never had the need, or seen the necessity, of loading a little smokeless powder in handgun cartridges or rifle cartridges of handgun length (44WCF, 38 WCF, etc).

Finding a bullet design that holds enough good quality BP lube (Big Lube bullets are recommended here frequently) will reduce fouling as much as over complicated duplex loads. I've used SPG since they started and see no reason to stop. The hardest bullet I will shoot in a BP cartridge is 1-16 tin-lead and prefer 1-20. Sized correctly to the cylinder's chamber mouths, I get no leading and clean up is easy...a little messy (lol) but still easy.

Dave

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #10 on: Today at 03:37:46 AM »

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2021, 05:25:06 PM »
Burn rate charts to which we have access are mere guides that give a hint that X burns faster than Y.

They are most useful for "first guess powder choice"  to a skilled student in the art, who has pressure testing equipment and chronographs .

Duplex loads have been experimented with since smokeless became available.

Once one strays from published tested scientific data, There are risks involved.
Without pressure equiment, one is only guessing, until something actually fails.
I have discovered that relying on "primer signs" is another  path ( altho slow) to unfirtunate results.

Most duplex advocates do so in large rifle cases, in strong rifle actions, often for long range work, and do so because they have poorly burning BP and/or their
bullets do not carry enough lube.

Our own Ranch13 shoots out past 1000 yards with only quality BP and wins matches... so...

Quality BP, loaded correctly, can burn with little fouling. Crappy stuff, like my bottles of ancient Elephant,
can foul so badly so quicky that it will clog 12 bore percussion fowler in one shot.

Many volumes have been written about manufacturors needing to use clean pure water and quality charcoal, without bark, from preferred trees
in order to achieve quality powder . Those manufacturors who strayed managed to make "fouling powder" .

As DaveT points out, better selection of bullet, lube, and quality powder will achieve a more harmonious outcome.

I myself will not shoot in the bay next to a person shooting duplex.
But You are free to do as you see fit.

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Offline Froogal

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2021, 08:23:24 AM »
You are absolutely free to do what ever you want and to listen to who ever you want. I first started loading black powder in cartridges back in the mid-1980s. I have never had the need, or seen the necessity, of loading a little smokeless powder in handgun cartridges or rifle cartridges of handgun length (44WCF, 38 WCF, etc).

Finding a bullet design that holds enough good quality BP lube (Big Lube bullets are recommended here frequently) will reduce fouling as much as over complicated duplex loads. I've used SPG since they started and see no reason to stop. The hardest bullet I will shoot in a BP cartridge is 1-16 tin-lead and prefer 1-20. Sized correctly to the cylinder's chamber mouths, I get no leading and clean up is easy...a little messy (lol) but still easy.

Dave

Yes. 1-20 lead is what I am using, and SPG lube. I think I have decided to not use a duplex load, but I will reduce the amount of powder and use cream of wheat to make up the difference.

Offline David Battersby

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2021, 09:18:27 AM »
............... but I will reduce the amount of powder and use cream of wheat to make up the difference.
I was using Cream of Wheat in the 44WCF , but I tried this and never looked back.   The Circle Fly .125 wad is a compressed paper and takes up about 10 grains of Swiss 2F worth of space. I load 44WCF on a Lee Classic Turret. Instead of taking the case of of the press to pour COW , I set the wad in the case mouth after dumping powder and seat it with the compression die. Fast , easy and accurate.
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2021, 10:14:08 AM »

PUT ME IN COACH!!  I'M READY TO PLAY!!

Hi Froogal  ;)

First things first "PLUS ONE for Professor Marvel"

Now.  I'll be direct.  The "fellow" who told you of the "little trick" of placing a small amount of Smokeless in the case, under the Black Powder, is a LOON!!  Bat Shi@#$ crazy.  Just because you can do something stupid, and have gotten away with something stupid, doesn't mean you should do something stupid.  STUPID can be fatal.  I would be want to stay as far away from Mr. Little Trick as possible.

Black Powder fouls.  Simple concept.  The nature of the beast.  There are many suggested remediations.  NONE actually stop the fouling.  Just some mitigation.  With properly set up guns, good quality BP, good bullet choice and a good lube, it is not unheard of to run a full match shooting BP. 

Bullet choice not only entails a good alloy for the bullets, but also lube grooves that carry enough lube, lube of the correct type for BP.  With some guns, there is NO way to get a 6 stage match.  There is NO way to get 6 stages without an amount of fouling.  With some guns, chasing a full match without some maintenance is a fools errand indeed.  The gun will tell you how badly you're screwed.

The INSURANCE POLICY:  Tote a small spray bottle of PAM (equal parts Hydrogen Peroxide, Alcohol and Murphys Oil Soap) and a hand rag.  If necessity rings your chimes, squirt some PAM on the rag and wipe down the cylinder face (5 - 6 seconds) then put a squirt on the Cylinder Bushing/Frame join (1 second).  If you just can't stand 10 - 12 seconds of piddling between stages, you're in the wrong game.  And, there is NO point in trying to shoot modern Replicants of the Schofield with BP.

It's a FUN game.  BP is funner then that Heathen Fad Smokeless stuff.  Have fun with the game and play it safely!!

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Offline Froogal

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2021, 10:33:33 AM »
I was using Cream of Wheat in the 44WCF , but I tried this and never looked back.   The Circle Fly .125 wad is a compressed paper and takes up about 10 grains of Swiss 2F worth of space. I load 44WCF on a Lee Classic Turret. Instead of taking the case of of the press to pour COW , I set the wad in the case mouth after dumping powder and seat it with the compression die. Fast , easy and accurate.

I LIKE that suggestion. My current method is rather tedious.

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2021, 10:55:23 PM »
The greased waxed or plain wad method is a tried and true method going back to the original cartridges. If one is as cheap as I am, one can even make their own out of free discarded cardboard and your choice of stuff to soak it in and let it dry.

Hi Coffin, thanks for chiming in :)
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Offline Lucky R. K.

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2021, 10:07:05 AM »

Two things:
1. To Mr. Coffin, I agree 100% about duplexing black powder with smokeless powder. Why would you even have smokeless powder? Back on topic, you can duplex black powder with black powder. Back when I shot a lot of BP cartridge, I duplexed 4 grains of 4F with 36 grains of 2F(10% 4F). It shot almost as clean as smokeless. Idiots do not try this.

2. To Professor Marvel, I punch fiber shotgun wads from Masonite siding board. I then soak them in melted beeswax, Crisco, olive oil mixture.

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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2021, 03:51:22 AM »


2. To Professor Marvel, I punch fiber shotgun wads from Masonite siding board. I then soak them in melted beeswax, Crisco, olive oil mixture.

Lucky
 


Thanks for the input Lucky! That is a great idea.
Our old member WWCF44 ( RIP ) showed several disected original cartridge with similar wads.

yhs
prof marvel
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Offline greyhawk

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2021, 04:40:51 PM »
PUT ME IN COACH!!  I'M READY TO PLAY!!

Hi Froogal  ;)

First things first "PLUS ONE for Professor Marvel"

Now.  I'll be direct.  The "fellow" who told you of the "little trick" of placing a small amount of Smokeless in the case, under the Black Powder, is a LOON!!  Bat Shi@#$ crazy.  Just because you can do something stupid, and have gotten away with something stupid, doesn't mean you should do something stupid.  STUPID can be fatal.  I would be want to stay as far away from Mr. Little Trick as possible.

Black Powder fouls.  Simple concept.  The nature of the beast.  There are many suggested remediations.  NONE actually stop the fouling.  Just some mitigation.  With properly set up guns, good quality BP, good bullet choice and a good lube, it is not unheard of to run a full match shooting BP. 

Coffinmaker is right ........and also not right (about duplex loading)
We have a guy in our club been shooting duplex in the same brass frame toggle guns for 25 years - so no it aint luck - he is a careful dude and thinks about what he is doing - would also have read anything worth reading by all of your best researchers before he did it - its sensibly done - trick is a moderate burn rate smokeless (4227 or 2295) in small amounts (3 to 5 grains) you sure as heck dont use "a fast burning smokeless" (stuff like bullseye and red dot is dangerous enough on its own certainly dont want to bottle it up under a blackpowder charge) our man is also using a low energy black powder (Wano) so his overall velocity is about equivalent to a charge of Goex.
I shoot duplex loads in a couple of modern lever guns without incident
Thats the not right part
The right part is more about the mentality of the bloke involved and in that same club are a couple of blokes who if they mentioned duplex loading I would be hiding behind Coffinmaker !!!
the final pitch is
pick a decent boolit and good lube over decent powder and dont need to do this ................................... 

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Powder burn rate
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2021, 07:44:39 PM »

But . . . . It "IS" luck.  right up until the day it isn't.  I'll reiterate.  Because you have gotten away with something STUPID (even for 25 years), doesn't mean you continue something STUPID.  Nor should you recommend the stupid act to others.  All it takes is one mistake to put it all inna toilette.

As an  Itty Bitty bit of information, the only thing retaining the Firing Pin Extension together in the older Brass Frame rifles is a tiny little cross-pin.  When it all goes inna toilette, that itty bitty pin will sheer.  Then the only thing to stop the Extension Rod as it exits the rifle . . . . is the shooters face and eye.  Think about that for a second.  There is NO justification for STUPID.

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