Author Topic: Dog Head Mills Belt  (Read 648 times)

Offline El Tio Loco

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Dog Head Mills Belt
« on: September 19, 2020, 08:14:09 PM »
I have become interested in the Spanish American War period.  While putting together an outfit I came across a Mills belt for the .30 army cartridges. It has a Dog Head buckle and a Pat. Sept. 94 date.  So is the Dog Head buckle military or is this a civilian hunting belt?
And if military, would this fit the impression for SAW?
It also has a name written on the inside in ink "LA. Broodus. Las Cruces N.M.
Thanks for any help,
Ken

Offline Drydock

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2020, 09:55:46 PM »
That would be a civilian buckle.  Probably a repro, for some odd reason the Dogs head mills buckle was a great favorite of repro makers in the 60's and 70's.  Could very well have been attached to a surplus mills belt any time in the last 100 years or so.  Is it a single or double row belt, and what color is it?  Are the rifle loops woven in to the belt, or made from a strip sewn to the belt?
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline St. George

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2020, 10:42:00 PM »
Strictly commercial - Mills belts were available to the sportsman's market in tandem with the military.

You need a 'US' plate, and there are numerous repros available.

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Offline El Tio Loco

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2020, 07:04:29 AM »
Thanks everyone for responding so quickly.
This belt is khaki and has 40 loops and they are milled into the belt, single row.
Do the reproduction belts vary much in quality or are they all about the same? 
I guess the next buy for me is the book "Cowboys in Uniform".
Ken

Offline pony express

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2020, 07:11:51 AM »
What Price Glory sells a really nice Mills belt, it's the only repro belt I know of that has woven in loops instead of sewn on. There's a link at the top of the GAF section here on CAS City.

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #5 on: Today at 02:48:55 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2020, 03:08:31 PM »
That may actually be a belt for .45-70.  Definatly can reccomend What Price Glory, they sell the only true Mills Belt currently available, and at an excellent price.  Please use the link at the top of the page if you look at WPG.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline El Tio Loco

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2020, 03:23:40 PM »
I looked at the WPG link for a belt but they only list one for the .45-70. Their eBay store has the 100 round .30-40 belt in blue. 
If I can ever figure out how to post pictures on this sight I will do that.
Ken

Offline smoke

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2020, 05:45:26 PM »
The WPG website is a hot mess.  The best way to find stuff is the search bar.  For some reason he has lots of cool stuff on ebay that is not on his website. :-\
GAF#379

Offline Drydock

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2020, 06:32:32 PM »
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mills-M1894-Blue-Cavalry-100-round-cartridge-belt-for-30-40-Krag-Regular/332488880326?hash=item4d69e1b0c6:g:6fkAAOSw1dNaNETc


Too bad really, he does have plenty on ebay.  This is the cavalry belt, and would be the one used by the Rough Riders.

Let us know if you have a specific interest, service, branch or unit, and we can focus on what you want. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline El Tio Loco

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2020, 09:09:06 PM »

Let us know if you have a specific interest, service, branch or unit, and we can focus on what you want.
I would most likely portray a trooper from the 1st US cavalry.  Back when I would reenact Civil War and rode horses that is what we did.  I also took part a couple time in the reenactment of the battle of San Pasqual and that was the 1st Dragoons, which later was the 1st US.
So 1st US Cavalry would be 1885 Blue Trousers, 1883 blue pullover shirt, khaki leggings and 1889 hat.
I own a Krag carbine and a SAA 7.5 inch pistol, so I would like to use these.  Is that about right? 
Ken

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #10 on: Today at 02:48:55 PM »

Offline smoke

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2020, 09:39:35 PM »
GAF#379

Offline Drydock

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2020, 11:43:41 AM »
THat sounds just fine. You have your basic outfit well planned out.  The double row cavalry Mills belt is the one you want.

 There are other options, like the 1884 fatigues for tropical/hot weather, and most would have transitioned to the 1892 Double Action Colt .38 by this time, though many preferred the SAA.  1st Cav went to Cuba with 5th Corp, so was one of the few units to recieve the 1st issue M1898 Khakis. Extending to Phillipine and China service gets you into the 1899 khakis.  You have a lot of options in this time frame.  Great fun!

Great References

https://www.oupress.com/books/search?query=McChristian     

https://www.ebay.com/i/303694004645?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=303694004645&targetid=4580840328167961&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=403204656&mkgroupid=1235851284511226&rlsatarget=pla-4580840328167961&abcId=9300377&merchantid=51291&msclkid=a791a0a183b818d92644ffc95a85e60f

https://www.amazon.com/Horse-Soldier-1881-1916-Indian-Spanish-American/dp/080612394X/ref=pd_lpo_14_t_1/133-4566720-1875246?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=080612394X&pd_rd_r=5a406d59-f765-47aa-8075-3635015d879b&pd_rd_w=GkgSu&pd_rd_wg=hseLb&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=3HXXY9BG58K3WGE9716J&psc=1&refRID=3HXXY9BG58K3WGE9716J
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline El Tio Loco

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2020, 12:08:37 PM »
Thanks Drydock for the reference list for uniforms for the SAW period.
Which of the McCristian books would you buy first?

Coming from WPG is a blue 100 round belt for the Krag. It seems indispensable if you are loading a Krag from the belt.
Also, the holster that WPG has is the Ropes Pattern.  Is this correct and if so when did they Army start carrying their pistols with the pistol butt to the rear?   The Civil War/Indian wars holsters have the pistol butt facing forward for a right side carry.
Ken

Offline 1961MJS

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2020, 03:13:57 PM »
...
Also, the holster that WPG has is the Ropes Pattern.  Is this correct and if so when did they Army start carrying their pistols with the pistol butt to the rear?   The Civil War/Indian wars holsters have the pistol butt facing forward for a right side carry.
Ken
Ha, I know this one cause I asked it before.  The 1911 was the first pistol carried butt to the rear. 
I believe that the Ropes Pattern is correct for the Indian war and into the Spanish American War. 
Later
Mike
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2020, 04:42:57 PM »
This one: https://www.oupress.com/books/9784280/uniforms-arms-and-equipment-two-volume-set

And the 1st US Army standard issue REVOLVER strongside belt holster that carried butt to the rear was adopted in 1942!   
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Drydock

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2020, 04:47:06 PM »
A little Tutorial about Krags: 

Krags are OAL sensitive.  The greatest mistake is the use of too light, too short bullets.  OAL should always be greater than 2.80.  Fortunately the long case neck gives great flexibility in bullet usage, but no real need to go below 170 grains.  Proper length will give slick feeding, and allow the cases to align naturally in the magazine. 

The Double Row Mills belt is absolutely essential, it is part of the rifle system.  Just as much as stripper clips are needed to properly utilize the 03 Springfield, a Krag cannot be truly operated without the Mills belt designed for it.  Grabbing a blind handful of cartridges from the belt places them properly in the hand for loading.  You will always come up with either 4,5, or 6, all of which can be used.  1, 2 or 3 is possible with just the thumb and one or two fingers for topping off. 

Grabbing with the LEFT hand from the belt will also place the cartridges in that hand best for loading as well, across the top and into the hopper.

The Krag magazine is traditionally referred to as a "Hopper" magazine.

Magazine open, the rifle should be held with the left hand at the balance point, a little muzzle down, rolled a little to the left.

Grabbing a handful with the right hand will place the cartridges across the palm, with the rims against the heel of the palm.  You will squeeze them between the thumb, index and middle fingers, letting them drop at a slight nose down attitude into the hopper.  (I talk at length, but this mostly happens without thought, the only real thought needed is to maintain the cartridge nose down as it drops)  If the cartridges are the proper length, they will automatically align for feeding when the hopper gate is closed.

Simply grabbing 2 by the rims with thumb and two fingers will allow you to literally throw them into the hopper with little thought.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline El Tio Loco

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2020, 07:13:16 PM »

And the 1st US Army issue REVOLVER strongside belt holster that carried butt to the rear was adopted in 1942!
https://collegehillarsenal.com/ropes-pattern-experimental-holster
Apparently because the Ropes was never officially issued you are right.  They had a lot of experimental gear during the Indian wars.

Thanks for the recommendation on the book. 
Ken

Offline smoke

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2020, 07:20:47 PM »
El Tio Loco

Many times at the Christmas season that 2 volume set of McChristian books has been on sale for $10.  You may not want to wait though.  It is a great set.  I have worn out my copy of The US Army in the West 1870-1880.  I need ot buy a new one.
GAF#379

Offline pony express

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2020, 09:35:05 PM »
A little Tutorial about Krags: 

Krags are OAL sensitive.  The greatest mistake is the use of too light, too short bullets.  OAL should always be greater than 2.80.  Fortunately the long case neck gives great flexibility in bullet usage, but no real need to go below 170 grains.  Proper length will give slick feeding, and allow the cases to align naturally in the magazine. 



+1 on that. The only time I ever had a problem with "rim lock" with my Krag was when I tried to use some 165gr flat point 30-30 cast bullets. Seated to the crimp groove. Had to very carefully load those to make sure the rims stayed lined up right. Maybe if I had seated them out a little more....

Being to cheap to not try and use them, I tried them in my '03. Didn't feed well there either.

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Dog Head Mills Belt
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2020, 07:28:47 PM »
I use the Hunters Supply 193 gc FN lead boolits in my Krags and ‘03s. Not quite seated to the crimp groove. Feed fine in my rifles. Krags and 1903 Springfields are the best.
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