Author Topic: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.  (Read 508 times)

Offline Dick Dastardly

  • Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4597
    • Big Lube molds
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« on: May 21, 2020, 04:13:25 pm »
Howdy,

My main match go to guns have become the 1860 open top Colts.  They just fit my hands and hold right.  Front sight on target and shoot.  But, I've installed Kirst Konverter cylinders on them and Kirst ejector rods and loading gate.  I load the five shot cylinders with Cowboy 45 Special ammo charged with 1.3 CC of FFFg black powder under J/P 45 200g Big Lube bullets.  They shoot very accurately and have earned me a good number of clean matches.  This year I'll be using FFg black powder and there seems to be no loss of boom, smoke and flames.  The ammo shoots just as accurately as the FFFg loads.  Same point of aim.

I know that these are C&B guns but I really do like shooting the little C45S ammo with them.  The load approximates the period correct 46 Cal rimfire and so I don't feel too much out of place with them.

Hold center!

DD-MDA
Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies

Offline Marshal Halloway

  • Editor & Webmaster of Cas City.
  • City Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1235
  • Don't squat with your spurs on. Have fun shootin'.
    • Cas City
  • SASS #: R3411
  • NCOWS #: HL-179
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 29
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2020, 04:41:47 pm »

Do you have a Pietta or Uberti?

I have one of the 1860 Colt Signature Series ( 3rd generation ) and am considering a Kirst converter for it.

https://www.kirstkonverter.com/1860-colt-army.html

Need to contact Kirst if any of their Pietta or Uberti kits will fit.

According to my notes parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy but fully assembled and hand-finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color-casehardening.

Thanks for sharing your experience using the C45S with BP.
Editor & Webmaster of CAScity.com
Director - Digital Video Division - Outdoor Sportsman Group (OSG).
Digital Video Production & Post Production OSG
Owner of Down Range Media GP

Offline Major 2

  • "Still running against the wind"
  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12322
  • Cracker Cow Cavalry
  • NCOWS #: 3032
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 22
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2020, 08:30:17 pm »
Your notes are correct , You want the Uberti kit

I have a 2nd Gen. I've  had 42 years,  with a R&D drop in  that's been in the gun nearly 20 years.
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Bunk Stagnerg

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 625
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2020, 10:00:45 pm »
Dick that load almost duplicates the original Henry load. It shoots like a dream through my Ubreti 1860 Henry rifle with a Happy Trails modified lifter.

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5957
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2020, 09:43:19 am »

 :)  Yepper Depper   ;)

I too was infected by the very infectious "Conversionious" infection.  I also have a pair of 1860s, converted to 45 with the most excellent Kirst Konverter and Ejector assemblies.  They work a treat.  I also found the "perfect" cartridge in these guns to be the Cowboy 45 Special case.  I however, shoot either 160Gr RNFP and APP, or 130Gr Barnstormer and APP.

Now for the CAVEAT:  My donor guns are/were Pietta.  Hogging out the loading channel for the gated recoil plate is/was no big deal.  I can switch back to a percussion cylinder although it looks hokey as hell.  I do consider the conversion with Loading Gate et all to be one way.

For those contemplating shooting suppositories thru a Uberti based Colt second gen or Signature, I would consider using an R & D type cylinder.  Yes it can be a nuisance to reload, but once practiced, I find it to be no big deal and you preserve the original gun.  Well fitted, removing the barrel assembly is just no biggie.  Same same applies, you want the unit for Uberti.  The guns are, after all, gussied up Uberti's.  Well set up, when switched back to percussion, the gun lends well to a Cylinder Loading stand such as the Tower of Power (Shameless plug for DDD)

Offline 45 Dragoon

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 211
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2020, 10:05:12 am »
:)  Yepper Depper   ;)

 (Shameless plug for DDD)


Not gonna lie, not gonna lie, not gonna lie  Mr. maker of Coffins !!! I'm a fan myself of the trip. D's  !!! And, I'ma fan of Mr. Dastardly as well !!! Wooo hooo!

Thuther Mike (just bein plain old shameless!!  (an possibly a little adolescent!! Lol) couldn't resist!!!
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks

Offline Marshal Halloway

  • Editor & Webmaster of Cas City.
  • City Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1235
  • Don't squat with your spurs on. Have fun shootin'.
    • Cas City
  • SASS #: R3411
  • NCOWS #: HL-179
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 29
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2020, 10:31:35 am »
For those contemplating shooting suppositories thru a Uberti based Colt second gen or Signature, I would consider using an R & D type cylinder.  Yes it can be a nuisance to reload, but once practiced, I find it to be no big deal and you preserve the original gun.  Well fitted, removing the barrel assembly is just no biggie.  Same same applies, you want the unit for Uberti.  The guns are, after all, gussied up Uberti's.  Well set up, when switched back to percussion, the gun lends well to a Cylinder Loading stand such as the Tower of Power (Shameless plug for DDD)

I might contemplate just that.

R&D or Howell Old West Conversion Cylinders

https://www.howellarms.com/1860-army

Haven't talked to Taylor's yet, but does anybody know who their manufacturer is? Howell?

https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/accessories/conversion-cylinders/1860-army.html
 
Editor & Webmaster of CAScity.com
Director - Digital Video Division - Outdoor Sportsman Group (OSG).
Digital Video Production & Post Production OSG
Owner of Down Range Media GP

Offline Dick Dastardly

  • Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4597
    • Big Lube molds
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2020, 12:56:12 pm »
My 1860s are Piettas.  Cylinders, plates and ejectors installed by my good friend Walt Kirst himself.  They fit and time like a dream.

Although the chambers will accommodate 45 Schofield ammo I have no need for that much boom from these fairly fragile (Compared to my ROAs) revolvers.

DD-MDA
Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies

Online Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2412
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 38
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2020, 02:37:31 pm »
Greetings Dick & Friends

And since I am pathetic at metric, I had to go look up the conversion  -1.3 cc puts it right about 20 grs of BP (depending)

I see Bunk points out
Dick that load almost duplicates the original Henry load. It shoots like a dream through my Ubreti 1860 Henry rifle with a Happy Trails modified lifter.

With a 200 gr bullet that's pretty darn nice! Altho I see Our Good friend Coffin prefers the lighter bullets. As a cheap frugal sort
I have to admit that will stretch out the lead supply by up to another 20-30 percent more bullets! And the paper or steel doesn't care any....

Is anyone selling the .45 CB brass lately?

You folks that shoot the .45 CB, have you chronographed them at all? I seem to recall that with a firm crimp the old Autorim and Webley loads
were quite respectable!

I think I am going to have to join this .45 open top circus!

yhs
prof marvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic

Offline Bunk Stagnerg

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 625
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2020, 05:39:43 pm »
Yes Starline has it listed item #1640

https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-cowboy-special/


Bunk

Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L

Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2020, 05:39:43 pm »

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5957
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2020, 06:11:15 pm »

 :D  Bunk beat me to the first reference   :D

I should know, but don't.  I do know there was some form of licensing agreement between Kenny Howell and Taylors.  I DO NOT know who is making the Cylinders for Taylors.  They (the cylinders) from Taylors are a high quality product.

Marshal Halloway,
Should you (and you should) jump on the Cowboy 45 Special wagon, there are a couple of caveats.  It would seem there are those of a more frugal persuasion, making a mistake when loading C45S brass.  Many are using their existing 45 ACP die sets.  DON'T.  A 45 ACP size/resize die imparts a slight taper to the case contributing to blow-by.  Use a standard 45 Colt resize die.  You can use a 45 ACP bullet seater.  May wish to turn the punch around.  DO NOT use an ACP taper crimp die.  I strongly recommend a Redding 45 Auto Rim Profile Crimp die for a good, solid, roll crimp.  With a Dillon progressive with case feed, you'll need the 45 ACP dohicky at the bottom of the drop tube.  Colt dohicky lets C45S cases go all over the place (DO NOT ask how I know this FACT).

The Cowboy 45 Special case was developed my a good friend of mine, Adirondack Jack.  His intent was to develop a cartridge with reduced internal volume to promote good ignition and burn with reduced powder charge.  Either BP or Smokeless.  It works a TREAT.  For full recoil reducing effect, I also suggest his personally designed "Barnstormer" Bullet.  Superb.  There is a CAS shooter now commercially casting the Barnstormer bullet, known as Shootin Fox.  I don't have his address handy.

Offline Marshal Halloway

  • Editor & Webmaster of Cas City.
  • City Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1235
  • Don't squat with your spurs on. Have fun shootin'.
    • Cas City
  • SASS #: R3411
  • NCOWS #: HL-179
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 29
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2020, 06:18:58 pm »
Marshal Halloway,
Should you (and you should) jump on the Cowboy 45 Special wagon, there are a couple of caveats.....

I don't see why not. Might add this to my special project with the 1860 Army conversion using DD's load recipe.

....and thanks for the tips on dies for it. I believe you've already saved me hours of frustration. Thank you!

MH
Editor & Webmaster of CAScity.com
Director - Digital Video Division - Outdoor Sportsman Group (OSG).
Digital Video Production & Post Production OSG
Owner of Down Range Media GP

Online Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2412
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 38
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2020, 01:40:38 am »
Thanks You My Good Bunk!

got an order in for 500...


........ It would seem there are those of a more frugal persuasion, making a mistake when loading C45S brass.
Many are using their existing 45 ACP die sets.  DON'T.  A 45 ACP size/resize die imparts a slight taper to the case contributing to blow-by.

 Use a standard 45 Colt resize die.  You can use a 45 ACP bullet seater.  May wish to turn the punch around. 

DO NOT use an ACP taper crimp die

I strongly recommend a Redding 45 Auto Rim Profile Crimp die for a good, solid, roll crimp. 
With a Dillon progressive with case feed, you'll need the 45 ACP dohicky at the bottom of the drop tube. 
Colt dohicky lets C45S cases go all over the place (DO NOT ask how I know this FACT).

The Cowboy 45 Special case was developed my a good friend of mine, Adirondack Jack.  His intent was to develop a cartridge with reduced internal volume to promote good ignition and burn with reduced powder charge.  Either BP or Smokeless.  It works a TREAT.  For full recoil reducing effect, I also suggest his personally designed "Barnstormer" Bullet.  Superb.  There is a CAS shooter now commercially casting the Barnstormer bullet, known as Shootin Fox.  I don't have his address handy.

THANKS COFFIN, I resemble that.
your warnings will save me considerable angst .
I must check in my boxes of loading crap archival loading storage containers -  I may have an ancient .45 ACP seat & crimp die that puts on a roll crimp...
or it may have been a fever dream.

yhs
prof marvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic

Offline Dick Dastardly

  • Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4597
    • Big Lube molds
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2020, 09:44:08 am »
Whut Bunk posted.  Star Line is selling the C45Spl brass directly.

DD-MDA
Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3819
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2020, 10:55:10 am »
FWIW, the Lee .455 Webley MK II dies work great with .45 CS.

Also FWIW.  Starline .455 Webley MK II brass works great in every .45 Colt handgun I've tried it in.  (SAAs both domestic and foriegn, a Schofield, an Open top, and a New Service.)  I was going to get some more CS, but this works nice for me as I have Webleys, thus the same ammo can be used in all.  Though I do have dedicated Colt and Schofield brass should more power be desired.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5957
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2020, 12:04:17 pm »

 :)  Ah Yes  ;)

In the Wabac (Think Sherman and The Perfesser), the 455 was looked at.  Deemed to be too short.  As it twer, AJ and I were headed in the same direction albeit for different reasons.  To wit:  AJ wanted to be able to shoot 45s on a equal footing with the fast CAS boys shooting 38s.  His research settled on the 45 ACP cartridge, but with a Colt Rim.  He got there initially by trimming 45 Colt to the same case length as the 45 ACP and that was a lot of work for several thousand examples. 

At the same time, I was deep into a parallel development, for a cartridge that would permit loading 10 in the magazine of a 16 inch barrel HENRY Trapper.  I was using 45 Schofield cases as donor stock, to get the larger rim size (special reason, different story).  I wound up at the same place AJ did.  At the same time we did some collaboration that brought us both to that point.  AJs round became the Cowboy 45 Special and mine became the Unknown 45 Squirt.  AJ badgered Starline to make his cartridge commercially, Head stamped Cowboy 45 Spl.  He made the great leap of faith (his words) the cartridge could be a commercial success as he had to order 50,000 pieces to get them made.  It worked.

There are a few complications to trimming Colt cases or Schofield cases, rather than using the C45S cases, but that is for another thread.  Also the use of C45S cases in 45 ACP Cylinders. 

Hide and Watch

Offline Dick Dastardly

  • Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4597
    • Big Lube molds
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2020, 04:47:14 pm »
The Cowboy 45 Special brass is now available from Star Line directly.  I'v bought a couple of thousand of those myself.  They are great in my 1860 open tops with Kirst Konverters.  I have yet to adopt them for use in my 73 rifles, but I would like to.  Any replies as to how to change my 73 to handle them would be appreciated.

DD-MDA
Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies

Offline Abilene

  • CAS-L Ghost Rider
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3150
    • Abilene's CAS Pages
  • SASS #: 27489
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 14
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2020, 07:34:42 pm »
Dick, you need one of these here doohickeys:

http://thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5957
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2020, 09:37:52 pm »

 :)  Ah crimannthly   ;)

Abilene beat me to the draw (not hard anymore).  Yep.  All you need is one of those Swifty Nifty Carrier Blocks form The Smith Shope.  Atz all you need.  Simply adjust your C45S cartridge length to fit the new "Stopped" length.

Also get ya a small stick (Honey Dipper works a treat) so as to push the last round loaded in past the stop.  funny to watch when ya forget ta do dat.  Rifle all jammed up.  No fun.

Just soz ya know.  I run 4, yep FOUR Henry Rifles with those doohickey's innem, a '73 and a 44 Spl '66.  Likes little short suppositories he does.   ::)

Your Pal
Smedley   ;D

Offline Dick Dastardly

  • Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4597
    • Big Lube molds
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cowboy 45 Special in 1860 open tops.
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2020, 05:49:07 pm »
Thank you Gentlemen,

I appreciate the come back on the 73 mod for C45Spl ammo.

DD-MDA
Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk
© 1995 - 2020 CAScity.com