Author Topic: 44 magnum question using Unique  (Read 311 times)

Offline powderhombre

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 52
    • Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Reload Target Recorder
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
44 magnum question using Unique
« on: September 09, 2020, 06:50:13 PM »
I called Alliant powders today to clarify a loading. A 240grn LSWC using Unique powder. The gentleman after some discussion told me 10.0 - 11. 7 grns. That is about what my Alliant brochure from years ago suggested. Then as luck would have it my 2nd edition Lee Modern Reloading book arrived a few hours later. I of course went right to the 44 Remington Magnum page and looked at the loadings for the 240 grn. lead bullet. It says 6.2 grns Unique never to exceed 7.0 grns @899fps. So now I'm confused. This loading also appears on the Alliant web site. Anyone have an idea as to this discrepancy? Should I call them back?

Offline Black River Smith

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 969
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2020, 07:32:39 PM »
I would suggest you 'recheck' those Lee numbers.  By my old Lyman Pistol Manual and my Lyman 49th edition Manual both list values like 5.8 to 6.9 for 240 to 245 cast Lead for the 44Special casing.  The 44 Magnum values are like 8.9 to 13.0 for a 245 grains.  These values also depend on the OAL.  Magnum pistol velocities reach the 1100fps.  Specials only reach the upper 700 to low 800 fps velocities.

Sorry, I do not have a Lee manual or I would check.  That 899fps seems high for 7.0 gr in a Mag case.
Black River Smith

Offline Abilene

  • CAS-L Ghost Rider
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3341
    • Abilene's CAS Pages
  • SASS #: 27489
  • NCOWS #: 3958
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 165
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2020, 07:57:40 PM »
You got me wondering so I pulled out a couple old (20-ish years) manuals.  Laser-Cast manual lists a Silhouette load for 44 magnum with 240gr SWC as 10.8 gr to 11.7 gr (1302-1349 fps)

They also list a 44 mag Cowboy Action rifle load of 6.0-10.0 Unique with the 240swc ( 940-1371 fps)

My Speer #13 has for the 240 LSWC 6.5-7.0 gr Unique (720-899 fps)

Offline Black River Smith

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 969
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2020, 08:31:13 PM »
Abilene,

Thanks for that info.  I never thought manufacturers would list a 'Cowboy load'.

powderhombre,

I rechecked myself and both my references were for Handgun loads not Rifles.  Sorry if you were referring to a Rifle load and velocities.  From the 6.2 to 7.0, I took you to be talking about Handguns.

For clarity I looked up the Lyman 49th ED for 44Mag (Rifle data) --- it is 10 to 11.7 grains of Unique for upper 1400fps.

I would say we do need more info on where you are using this 44Mag and then also be clear when talking to manufactures.
Black River Smith

Offline powderhombre

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 52
    • Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Reload Target Recorder
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2020, 10:04:28 PM »
It is a handgun I'm loading for. I am using a Lyman 49th edition, Their test barrel is 4" So I assume the load is for pistol. My Alliant manual that is 10 years old. it specifies pistol. The technician didn't ask what I was loading for. The Lee manual seems very low to me. I fear detonation with 6. 2 grains in a magnum case.  will call them back tomorrow.

Advertisers

  • Guest
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #5 on: Today at 02:12:19 AM »

Offline powderhombre

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 52
    • Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Reload Target Recorder
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2020, 10:10:10 PM »
Interestingly Alliant lists the 250gn Keith bullet at 11.0gns max 1200 fps. I don't know why they hedge the 240gn lead bullet.

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6187
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 62
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2020, 09:28:03 AM »

Powderhombre

First I offer a CAVEAT:  "Detonation" is a myth.  Any propellant has X Jules of stored energy and cannot exceed that output.  Light powder charges cannot of themselves destroy a gun.

There is however, a phenomenon called "Premature Shot Start."  Insufficient gas pressure to propel the bullet through the Throat or down the barrel.  The powder charge is just sufficient to "Start" the bullet out of the case, and then the bullet STOPS at the throat.  The bullet becomes a Bore Obstruction.  This confines the expanding gas to too small a volume and sends pressure through the roof.  This can and will blow out a cylinder in some guns.

Each bullet reacts differently to a given amount of powder.  The powder manufacturers pressure test extensively to arrive at the recommended load level.  It may not at first glance, make sense to you, but care must be exercised when reducing loads or running beyond maximum.  Don't get too wrapped up in the differences in recommendations.  Also, powder formulations can and do change over time, changing the recommendations.  Relax.  Have fun.

Offline Trailrider

  • CAS-L Ghost Rider
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2185
    • Gunfighter Zone
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2020, 03:34:59 PM »
Powderhombre

First I offer a CAVEAT:  "Detonation" is a myth.  Any propellant has X Jules of stored energy and cannot exceed that output.  Light powder charges cannot of themselves destroy a gun.

There is however, a phenomenon called "Premature Shot Start."  Insufficient gas pressure to propel the bullet through the Throat or down the barrel.  The powder charge is just sufficient to "Start" the bullet out of the case, and then the bullet STOPS at the throat.  The bullet becomes a Bore Obstruction.  This confines the expanding gas to too small a volume and sends pressure through the roof.  This can and will blow out a cylinder in some guns.

Each bullet reacts differently to a given amount of powder.  The powder manufacturers pressure test extensively to arrive at the recommended load level.  It may not at first glance, make sense to you, but care must be exercised when reducing loads or running beyond maximum.  Don't get too wrapped up in the differences in recommendations.  Also, powder formulations can and do change over time, changing the recommendations.  Relax.  Have fun.
You nailed it, CM! What generally happens is that the excessive pressure, exceed the ultimate tensile strength of the cartridge brass (about 35,000 psi) and the case ruptures sending hot gases out in a jet like a cutting torch! This burns through the cylinder walls and the cylinder bursts, generally taking the top off the gun!  :o This is particularly true in Colt's design guns in .45LC, which may have sloppy chambers. I showed photos in my old book "Trailrider's Guide to Cowboy Action Shooting" (no longer in print). 

The question of the loads of Unique in the .44 Magnum depends on what you intend to use the load for...CAS or hunting?  For CAS loads 6.5 gr with a cast bullet would probably be about CAS maximum (1,000 ft/sec). I base that on using 7.5gr of Universal...which is slightly faster than Unique behind a 213 gr bullet in .44-40, which has more case capacity (about 6.7% more) than .44 Magnum brass. 

One thing that helps to prevent Premature Shot Start is to get good neck tension on the bullet, and a FIRM ROLL CRIMP INTO THE CANNELURE OR GREASE GROOVE! 
Ride to the sound of the guns, but watch out for bushwhackers! Godspeed to all in harm's way in the defense of Freedom! God Bless America!

Your obedient servant,
Trailrider,
Bvt. Lt. Col. Commanding,
Southern District
Dept. of the Platte, GAF

Offline powderhombre

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 52
    • Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Reload Target Recorder
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2020, 10:03:24 PM »
Very good information here and I thank you guys, you really are great and make a guy feel welcome. I wasn't the only one to notice this load discrepancy, a quick Google search turned up some very interesting opinions on the subject. Rather than try to remember it all.. I searched " Loading the 44 magnum with Unique powder."

Offline powderhombre

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 52
    • Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Reload Target Recorder
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 04:49:12 PM »
I contacted Alliant powders about the loading they offer. he is the reply:   The data listed on our website is utilizing the Speer swaged bullet. This bullet is a softer swaged bullet, not a hard cast lead bullet. The load data for these bullets is intentionally held to a lower velocity to keep from leading up the barrel. The data is for the Speer bullet, not your Meister hard cast lead bullet.

Alliant has no tested load data for the hard cast lead bullets generally speaking. We normally refer to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition. Looking to this handbook, there is the data for a hard casat lead bullet listed.

Unfortunately, this data is copyrighted and you will either need to contact Lyman or purchase the handbook.

Thanks,

Duane V. /Technical Service Representative

2299 Snake River Ave.

Lewiston, ID 83501

Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer

866-286-7436

Advertisers

  • Guest
Re: 44 magnum question using Unique
« Reply #10 on: Today at 02:12:19 AM »

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2020 CAScity.com