Author Topic: 1860 Henry Iron frame  (Read 1358 times)

Offline Curtis264

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
1860 Henry Iron frame
« on: March 18, 2020, 05:34:41 pm »
I find that the last round sometimes get stuck in the elevator and locks up the lever, if I keep pressure on the lever and press on the primer side of the bullet down it releases, it does not happen all the time. I just put slix springs in, action seems to be excellent, I can lever the rifle with one finger and it is super smooth

Offline OD#3

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 251
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2020, 06:44:22 pm »
I don't think anyone has replied, because we can't figure out what your malfunction is from your description.  In what position is the elevator stuck--down?  And you have to push down on the rim of the cartridge in order to free the elevator up again?

Offline Curtis264

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2020, 12:54:11 am »
That is correct is in the down position, and when I go to pull the lever back to raise elevator it is stuck, but if I push down on the rear of the bullet it will release, and it is only on the last round, thank you by the way for the fantastic video, must have watched it 20 times before I started the change on my rifle

Offline OD#3

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 251
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 02:54:31 pm »
Thanks for the kind words about my vid.  The issue with your rifle isn't one I've ever heard of with an 1860 Henry, so your question is humbling, and we're probably going to need a bit more information.  When you push down on the rim, what effect does that have on the rest of the cartridge?  Does it raise the nose?  Can you see any movement of the cartridge?  Also, what is the cartridge overall length of the ammunition you're using?   

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6024
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2020, 07:43:18 pm »
 :P  I admit I'm stump'd.  Normally, on a Toggle Link Rifle, the very first round sticks under the back wall of the Carrier Block Mortice.  This happens because the First Round is catiwumpus too the loading gate and the back wall is missing an important bevel.

A Henry has no loading gate relief so the cartridge is always aligned front to back.  I normally first look to the last thing done to the action for a problem.  The right angle portion of the SlixSpring is too long deliberately, to allow proper fitting.  Did you "fit" the spring or just drop it in??  It could be hanging up on the Lever or on the lifter side, hanging up on the carrier arm.  Just a WAG (Military acronym for Wild Ass'd Guess) without being able to look inside and watch.  Ummmmmm.

PS:  Hi there Ho there OD#3.  HOPE YOUR KEEPING WELL.
Hide and Watch.  'Cept "they" don't lit you hide.  So don't forget to Duck and Cover!!

Advertisers

  • Guest
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #5 on: Today at 01:29:01 am »

Offline Dirty Dick

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2020, 07:27:04 am »
I had this problem with my M92 .44-40, last round would not feed,  turns out the magazine spring was weak/fatigued, new spring installed, no problem.

Offline Dave T

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 498
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2020, 03:46:42 pm »
I had this problem with my M92 .44-40, last round would not feed,  turns out the magazine spring was weak/fatigued, new spring installed, no problem.

That was my thought for the OP's problem.

Dave

Offline Curtis264

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2020, 11:01:10 pm »
:P  I admit I'm stump'd.  Normally, on a Toggle Link Rifle, the very first round sticks under the back wall of the Carrier Block Mortice.  This happens because the First Round is catiwumpus too the loading gate and the back wall is missing an important bevel.

A Henry has no loading gate relief so the cartridge is always aligned front to back.  I normally first look to the last thing done to the action for a problem.  The right angle portion of the SlixSpring is too long deliberately, to allow proper fitting.  Did you "fit" the spring or just drop it in??  It could be hanging up on the Lever or on the lifter side, hanging up on the carrier arm.  Just a WAG (Military acronym for Wild Ass'd Guess) without being able to look inside and watch.  Ummmmmm.

PS:  Hi there Ho there OD#3.  HOPE YOUR KEEPING WELL.
Hide and Watch.  'Cept "they" don't lit you hide.  So don't forget to Duck and Cover!!

I fitted the springs, would grind a small portion and reinstall them, had to do this several times until they worked properly, also had to add a little more bend to add spring pressure. My thought that has been mentioned was spring pressure is not enough, but rifle is brand new, still have not fired a shot out of it yet

Offline OD#3

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 251
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2020, 12:01:22 am »
Hey Coffinmaker.  Glad you chimed in on this one; I was hoping you'd have some ideas.  Here's the latest idea I had about it:

Curtis264, do me a favor and cycle the rifle slowly while empty.  Look and see if the follower tab moves or wiggles, indicating contact between the follower and the elevator.  If it doesn't move at all, that may have some bearing on your problem.

As you probably know, cartridge overall length is critical to these rifles. Too long, and they won't even fit in the elevator window in the frame.  And they can't be too short either, but there is more tolerance for short today than in original rifles.

When you have a stack of cartridges in the magazine, the round in front of the one in the elevator will have its rim protruding into the elevator window.  That bevel on the front bottom of the elevator ramps that cartridge head back into the magazine as the elevator rises.  Original rifles only had a shallow elevator bevel, expecting cartridge length to be held to tighter tolerances.  Today's cowboy ammunition is often a bit shorter than the originals, so the rims protrude further into the window.  Uberti has compensated by making that elevator bevel deeper.  This compensation has a limit, as too deep a bevel will cut into the cavity for the lifter arm. 

Anyway, as the cartridge rims are being ramped back into the magazine, it is possible for the rim to catch on the top of the magazine opening.  So I always bevel and polish that area as well.  A lot of folks don't do this and experience no rim catching, so I don't really know how important this is; I just do it to mine. 

My theory on your rifle suggests that your cartridge follower may not be protruding far enough, which would only be relevant on the last round.  That last round is free to rattle around in that elevator, because there's no case head on top of it pushing it back; there is just the follower to limit its forward movement.  And if your follower doesn't touch the elevator, and that last round has rattled its way to the very front, there might be enough space for the nose of the bullet to contact the top of the magazine entrance when the elevator tries to rise.  And if that area isn't beveled well, the occasional bullet nose may jam up there until you push down on the rim, likely moving the whole cartridge backwards a bit and pulling the nose away from that area in the process.

Just a theory.  Wish I could examine the rifle in-person.  If the follower isn't contacting the elevator at all, you can test my theory a bit by levering with the muzzle pointed skyward.  If you NEVER jam in that position but sometimes jam when horizontal, I think a short follower along with a poorly-beveled magazine opening may be the reason.



Offline Curtis264

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2020, 02:54:12 pm »
Hey Coffinmaker.  Glad you chimed in on this one; I was hoping you'd have some ideas.  Here's the latest idea I had about it:

Curtis264, do me a favor and cycle the rifle slowly while empty.  Look and see if the follower tab moves or wiggles, indicating contact between the follower and the elevator.  If it doesn't move at all, that may have some bearing on your problem.

As you probably know, cartridge overall length is critical to these rifles. Too long, and they won't even fit in the elevator window in the frame.  And they can't be too short either, but there is more tolerance for short today than in original rifles.

When you have a stack of cartridges in the magazine, the round in front of the one in the elevator will have its rim protruding into the elevator window.  That bevel on the front bottom of the elevator ramps that cartridge head back into the magazine as the elevator rises.  Original rifles only had a shallow elevator bevel, expecting cartridge length to be held to tighter tolerances.  Today's cowboy ammunition is often a bit shorter than the originals, so the rims protrude further into the window.  Uberti has compensated by making that elevator bevel deeper.  This compensation has a limit, as too deep a bevel will cut into the cavity for the lifter arm. 

Anyway, as the cartridge rims are being ramped back into the magazine, it is possible for the rim to catch on the top of the magazine opening.  So I always bevel and polish that area as well.  A lot of folks don't do this and experience no rim catching, so I don't really know how important this is; I just do it to mine. 

My theory on your rifle suggests that your cartridge follower may not be protruding far enough, which would only be relevant on the last round.  That last round is free to rattle around in that elevator, because there's no case head on top of it pushing it back; there is just the follower to limit its forward movement.  And if your follower doesn't touch the elevator, and that last round has rattled its way to the very front, there might be enough space for the nose of the bullet to contact the top of the magazine entrance when the elevator tries to rise.  And if that area isn't beveled well, the occasional bullet nose may jam up there until you push down on the rim, likely moving the whole cartridge backwards a bit and pulling the nose away from that area in the process.

Just a theory.  Wish I could examine the rifle in-person.  If the follower isn't contacting the elevator at all, you can test my theory a bit by levering with the muzzle pointed skyward.  If you NEVER jam in that position but sometimes jam when horizontal, I think a short follower along with a poorly-beveled magazine opening may be the reason.

The follower does move when empty when I lever the rifle. when the last cartridge gets stuck, it is about a 1/16 of an inch that it needs to move back and then is releases the elevator, it does not happen all the time, I just put 5 cartridges in the mag and levered them through the rifle, 5 times doing this the last cartridge got stuck twice. I am wonder if it just need to fire a couple hundred rounds through it and break it in. As I said before this rifle is unfired

Advertisers

  • Guest
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #10 on: Today at 01:29:01 am »

Offline OD#3

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 251
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2020, 07:53:03 pm »
Well, that busts half my theory, but I still think we're onto something.  I don't think your rifle needs a "break-in" to fix this.  You said that when you move the cartridge back about 1/16th of an inch, that frees everything up.  This still suggests that the bullet nose on that last round still catches occasionally on the magazine tube opening.  If you're agreeable to breaking the rifle down again, I suggest you give the top of the breech-end entrance to the magazine tube a look-see.  I'd be willing to bet that edge is sharper than it should be, and this really isn't a difficult fix.  Are you using lead bullets?  If so, try cycling some rounds through again until you find another last round that sticks, then put enough pressure on the lever to leave a mark on the bullet nose (if that's, indeed what's catching).  Once you free it, just raise the elevator all the way and look closely at the bullet nose, and I'll bet you see a mark there. 

Remember, with no rounds in the magazine pushing on that last bullet, it is free to rattle forwards and backwards however far the cartridge is shorter than the window.  It is also not lying perfectly horizontally, because the rim will cause a downward attitude of the nose, canting the meplat a bit.  Have you tried levering with the muzzle pointed up past 45 degrees?  How about down past 45 degrees?  I'd be interested to know if the condition presents itself with either or both.

If it tends to only happen when the cartridge has slid to the front of the window, you can cure this by working on that magazine entrance.  It really isn't too hard to bevel and polish that top edge. 

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6024
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2020, 08:58:49 pm »

Ah well .. not having the rifle in my hands is a handicap.  However, flip it upside down and inspect the area where the magazine meets the frame.  CAREFULLY inspect for any ledges, burrs, or protrusions that might hang up the Follower.  Make sure the follower slides SMOOTHLY the last inch of it's travel.

Offline Curtis264

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2020, 03:50:23 pm »
Here are some pictures of mag tube opening

Offline OD#3

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 251
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2020, 09:19:44 pm »
Well, you certainly have plenty of protrusion on your follower, so I'm getting stumped.  The area I was talking about vis-a-vis having a polished bevel was just below that bowtie-shaped piece of frame between barrel and magazine.  I did have a Uberti '73 once that was particularly rough in the entire area of the frame twixt magazine and barrel, and it affected smooth operation.  But this was with all cycling--not just on the last round, which was why I was zeroing in on the magazine entrance alone. 

With that much follower protrusion, it surprises me that you can even move the last round to the rear at all.  How long are your rounds?  Is there a burr anywhere in the elevator itself that the last round's rim is catching on occasionally?  With the magazine follower bottomed out, there isn't much spring tension left, so it would be easier for a burr to stop the last round from fully seating in the elevator.

Offline Curtis264

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2020, 10:44:21 pm »
Here is the bullet I am using, these are reloads with brand new Starline brass, 250gr plated bullets

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6024
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2020, 10:51:15 am »

 :)  Curtis264   ;)

Without further adieu, allow me to opine, you may well be using the wrong bullet.  And you most definitely have a "Crimp" problem, as in "no" Crimp.  To run correctly, you ammunition requires a good positive Roll Crimp into a Crimp groove.  Start solving the problem there.

Offline Curtis264

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2020, 07:26:37 pm »
I use the Lee Factory crimp die, will that not work with  bullet
https://leeprecision.com/carbide-factory-crimp-die-45-colt.html

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6024
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2020, 10:06:24 pm »

The cartridges you picture, show no evidence of "Crimp" ??

Offline Curtis264

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2020, 08:44:18 pm »
I believe the factory crimp dies uses a taper crimp not a roll crimp, that maybe the difference you are seeing

Offline Abilene

  • CAS-L Ghost Rider
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3187
    • Abilene's CAS Pages
  • SASS #: 27489
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: 1860 Henry Iron frame
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2020, 09:24:11 pm »
The 45acp Factory Crimp Die is a taper crimp.  The 45 Colt FCD is roll crimp.  Need to screw the adjustment down for desired crimp.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2020 CAScity.com