Dissecting an original 50-95 Cartridge

[skoda]

Hello All,

I've been messing around with an original Model 1876 in  50-95 for about ten years now with little luck on accuracy from the original barrel. I tried several bullet types and powder charges, etc., etc. and finally ended up with a new barrel on it for other reasons in addition to poor accuracy.

Before I got into a new round of a hundred different load configurations with the new barrel I looked into what the original load was for the 50-95. I had done that research before with little luck and this time I came up with the same little bit of nothing. What to do?

I have a few original factory cartridges that I purchased from a local collector. Some are so early that they do not have any head stamp which makes them made between 1878 and 1884. I was tempted to take one apart to see what was in it but I didn't have the heart. At the last gun show the same collector was there and he had a head stamped cartridge that was in decent shape but not 'collector quality'. It had some deep corrosion below the shoulder and it had a coating of varnish on it along with the number 96 etched on it. For the princely sum of $20 I bought it and brought it home to dissect, measure, weigh, and generally analyze it to see what Winchester was loading back when the 50-95 was a main product line offering.

While doing this I thought that others might benefit from this effort and so I am bringing to you what I found.

First I want to make it clear that this is just a simple analysis done by a non-expert using simple tools on a cartridge that is 100-135 years old. As mentioned the cartridge has experienced some corrosion and it is not clear how/why that started or when. It is also not known how the cartridge was stored or handled in all of those years. Also, this is just one cartridge, undoubtedly Winchester made product changes over time, had production variations, as well as supplier variations. And this is only one cartridge from all of those years and variations. My study is not meant to give precise data only to give a feel of what the original experts were doing back when the 1876 Centennial Express was at the top of their product line.

First I cleaned off the varnish, It was clearly added later and would not add anything to the examination effort. A little Bix and a quick wash down and that was off. Next I took to measuring the cartridge in as many ways as I could before I endeavored to take it apart.



What I found was:

Weight of cartridge: 582.7 grains
Overall length of cartridge: 2.282 inches
Case neck diameter: 0.5295 inches
Crimp diameter at case mouth: 0.5280 inches

The head stamp reads "WRA Co. 50-95 W.C.F." It has a copper cup in the bullet nose with an 'X' with long serifs on it.

For all of these measurements I was using my Mitotoyo digital calipers and my Pact digital powder scale. Again, take them for what they are, an approximation of what an original cartridge measures out at.

With that done it was time to pull the bullet and see what was inside. I used a kinetic hammer bullet puller to do this and the bullet came out after three very light blows. I was rather surprised at how easy it came out. It would be interesting to know the alloy of brass that was used. It seems rather soft.

With the bullet out the first thing that I noticed was that there was some light grey material on top of the powder charge. It's not 100% clear what that is but from what I found out my best guess is that it is lead that corroded off of the base of the bullet. It's fairly heavy, grey like lead, and there is clearly something missing from the base of the bullet when you look at it from the side. The bullet weighed 302.4 grains and the grey material weighed 5.5 grains. Adding these together give a total weight of 307.9 grains. Is that powder all lead? If it's an oxide does that add to the weight? If it is lead oxide is that caused by the potassium nitrate in the black powder? Heck, I don't even know if it's lead oxide, lead nitrate, or some kind of floor sweepings from the factory. Maybe some chemically minded members can chime in on that subject. This weight was after I scratched out the hardened 'grease' or 'wax' from the grooves.



The next thing was to take a good look at the bullet. I doubt if I could find the same bullet or even a mold but it's good to have as a reference when looking at modern replacements. The bullet is the British express type with a hollow point and a copper cup added to delay expansion **. If you take the weights from above and add them it's approximately a 308 grain bullet. One often finds a 300 grain figure called out. Perhaps that is the weight before the copper cup is added. I don't know how to get the copper cup out without destroying the bullet so for now I'll go with that theory.

Dimensions of the bullet are as follows:

Overall length: 0.7480 inches
OD of the three 'driving bands': 0.511 to 0.513 (the bullet was clearly oval rather than round, is that from the casting process?, from handling to load it? Was the bullet squashed in the case sometime in the past 100 plus years of it's existence? Hard to know.)

Width of the driving bands: 0.0785 inches
OD of the three grease grooves: 0.470 inches
Width of the grooves: 0.0505 inches
OD at the base of the ogive: 0.505 inches
Meplat diameter: 0.306 inches (this was hard to measure due to the bullet having a rounded edge)

** In the book "The Paper Jacket" by Paul Matthews he quotes an article from the January 9, 1878 Indian newspaper "Pioneer" regarding cartridge reloading and paper patched bullets. In that quote one finds the comment "...The cavities of hollow expanding bullets should be filled in with bees' wax only. For heavy game the bullets are fitted with copper tubes, which prevent their breaking up too easily..."

After removing the grey matter as best as I could I was down to the powder charge. It was hard. Really hard. Seeing that I wasn't going to be pouring the powder out I dug into it with a small screw driver. I told you I was an amateur. I got some loose and poured it out. Digging in deeper I got through a crust that was about a quarter inch thick and into a somewhat softer layer. But that was still hard and held together. One thing that I noticed was that the powder charge was made of different sized grains even when I took out all of the powder that my little shovel damaged I could still see variations in the size of the grains down to a course powder smaller than 4Fg.



From my own experience loading 50-95 cartridges I can tell you that one has to compress the black powder in order to get 95 grains of 2Fg into a 50-95 case and still have space for the bullet. I have loaded original Winchester balloon cases, Bertram cases, and Jamison case. While the balloon cases have more room, they don't have enough room for 95 grains of 2Fg unless you compress them. I tried a drop tube and vibrating them into position and still had to use a compression die. It sure looks like Winchester did as well.

Digging more into the case I got most of the powder out and it weighed 89.7 grains. But there was still some of that extra hard crust on the inside of the case and scratching at it with the little screwdriver and another pick type tool wasn't getting very far. I decided to dissolve the rest out with water. I filled the case and let it set over night. The next day I used the little pick and got as much out as I could and poured the black goop into a small metal dish. I then rinsed the case with fresh water and poured that into the dish. At that point the case was fairly clear of powder so I set the dish in a warm area to evaporate the water. Once dry that  gave an additional 5.0 grains of black powder for a total of 94.7 grains of powder. Pretty close to 95 grains as I'm sure that there was still a bit more in the case plus what ever might have been sacrificed to corrode the bullet.

One of my primary reasons for this effort was to find out what kind of powder they used. I had read a number of different fact-pinions but I wanted to see for myself. Because of the poor condition the powder charge was in it is difficult to say for sure especially since I do not have the proper equipment for measuring powder grain size but that didn't stop me from trying. I used a little spoon to pick out the larger grains that I could get and laid them on a piece of paper. I then laid similar amounts of known powder around the original and did a visual comparison.

As you can see from the pictures the original powder is smaller than the 1Fg but bigger than the 2Fg choices. It seems a bit smaller than the 1 1/2Fg powder though some grains are about that size. My best estimation is that it's 1 1/2Fg powder with a lot of damage from the compression die.



With the case empty I could get some data from that. My main interest was the bullet and powder charge but case data might prove useful as well. I have some original balloon cases but they have been polished and reused numerous times by the previous owner and I wasn't sure if they were the correct length (they were close to the same as this dissected case).

The case measured out as follows:

Overall length: 1.9210 inches* (measured 1.919 with the bullet crimped in place)
Length mouth to top of rim: 1.860 inches*
Rim thickness: 0.0565 inches*
*true they don't add up, I was using a digital caliper not an electron beam microscope
Rim diameter: 0.6220 inches
Case diameter just above the rim: 0.5585 inches

Case neck ID: 0.515 inches

I also weighed the case and measured it's fluid capacity with Bertram and Jamison cases for reference:

Empty case weight with primer fitted: 176 grains (Bertram 237.2, Jamison 227.2)
Fluid capacity: 6.0 cc of water (Bertram 5.7, Jamison 5.80)

Well, that's what I found out from this one cartridge. Remember it was likely made when Queen Victoria was walking around Windsor Castle and it likely left the factory on a horse drawn cart to a railroad station to be shipped to almost anywhere they sold Winchester rifles. I hope that you have found this interesting if not minutely useful information.

More and higher resolution photos can be found here: https://imgur.com/a/ZdTy5ge

[Coal Creek Griff]

This isn't one of my calibers (yet), but I really appreciate your report and photos. You've added to our knowledge. Thank you for the effort that you put into this.

CC Griff

[dusty texian]

Thank you Skoda for the write up .  Interesting information . ,,,DT

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[matt45]

If there is any way to do so safely, you might get the old primer out and measure the old flash hole.  The old 45-70's had a larger flash hole than modern cases.

[Black River Smith]

Deleted

[skoda]

If there is any way to do so safely, you might get the old primer out and measure the old flash hole.  The old 45-70's had a larger flash hole than modern cases.

I don't want to remove the primer because I plan to use the case head for a decoration.

I have four other balloon cases - marked a bit different "W.R.A.Co. 50-95 EX.". The best that I can measure them is with drill shanks as pin gauges as the flash hole is too deep for my calipers. The largest one that fits is a 5/65" drill and it is a wee bit small. I would estimate that they have a 0.080" flash hole. They have been fired several times which may have eroded the flash hole a bit though there is no sign of that.

Can someone help date range the cases noted here and the one that I dissected? All that I can find is that the non-head stamped cases date to 1884 and since the 50-95 came out in 1878 it puts those to 1878-1884.

[kwilliams1876]

Fantastic cartridge analysis!
I know one thing that works against me target shooting my original is the huge vee notch in the sporting rear sight. Yours maybe different. On my repro put on a tang sight and that really helped. Also when I reload the .50 and 45-75 I use a card wad under bullet, drop tube the charge and compress.
kw

[skoda]

Thanks. I found the effort useful even if it doesn't result in any knowledge that directly helps in my search for 'the perfect reload'.

From seeing the variation in grain sizes after compressing I think that I will try 3Fg to try to minimize grain damage.

I know from past efforts that trying to get 95 grains into the case is a lot of effort and does not result in better group sizes. But you can feel the extra kick and see the extra smoke.

[Coal Creek Griff]

But you can feel the extra kick and see the extra smoke.

Bah, who needs accuracy when you have lots of shoulder pain and smoke!

Seriously, though, I am grateful that you've made the effort to analyse the cartridge, then the time to report it here.

CC Griff

[ndnchf]

Very interesting - thanks for sharing.

[matt45]

I have had decent luck loading black powder cartridges with the method used by J.S. Wolf- Loading Cartridges For The Original 45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine.  I think the book is still available.

[Cliff Fendley]

Very interesting thanks for sharing

[skoda]

Very interesting thanks for sharing

Thanks for the tip, I'll look for it. Can you share a few things that relate to the 50-95 and similar cartridges?

[matt45]

I've never loaded for the 50/95, so just a few generic things I've discovered w/ the ones I have loaded for.
    First, all of the B.P. cartridges like a larger flash hole (I drill mine out to 0.096) and a magnum primer.  The pistol cartridges are less sensitive (shorter range?).  I like the W-W magnum primers, but you can experiment to your best results.  As to bullets, I have found, after years of trying something new, that getting as close to the original spec. usually works best (generally a soft alloy w/ lots of SPG).  I also use a powder compression die, and try to compress to where the powder is about 1/16" below the base of the bullet.  For single shots a taper crimp works well, but for Tubular magazines a good, firm roll crimp (or a Lee factory, if available) is a must.  Hope this helps.

[skoda]

Thank you for that Matt. I will use this in my search for the perfect 50-95.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Sorry, no .50-95 experience. I do have a repro NWMP carbine. Personally I feel better using a drop tube for the powder, rather than a whole lot of compression.

The originals had a 1 - 60 twist. This follows the theme of "Express" cartridges. The bullets were much lighter, Cartridges of the World shows it as 300 gr. for an mv of 1557 fps.