Author Topic: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI  (Read 3128 times)

Offline Whiskey Double

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Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« on: January 28, 2020, 06:47:24 PM »
This is pointed towards Drydock and Rattlesnake but EVERYONE is welcome to join in . First of all I understand why everyone does it , but it's a SHAME they do !!!  I would love to put it back to .455
I need advice on loading .45 ACP for it, I'm thinking size with 45LC die 3.5 -4 gr Trail Boss with a Hornady 255gr swaged .454 lead bullet and use the rest of the 45ACP dies to finish loading. What do you think ? or should I get 265 hollow base bullets?

Thanks
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2020, 07:25:32 PM »
I use unmodified Starline .45 Auto Rim brass.  I use the Lee .455 Webley MK II dies  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011201072?pid=197309  along with a Lee .45 Auto Rim FCD for the final crimp.  I use this bullet  http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-262M-D.png  over 1cc of Trailboss,  This duplicates original ballistics. 

The .45 Auto rim is so close to Webley MK 1 Brass capacity as to make no difference, and is far easier to load for performance than the Shorter MK II case.  ALL Webley .455s have MK I chamber dimensions BTW.  The Brits never bothered to change them after going to the MK II cartridge.

I also had the chamber throats reamed out to .4525 to better match the barrel dimensions.  Most Webleys have undersized throats, usually .449 or so going into a .451/.452 bore.  Doing this eliminates  the need for hollowbase bullets for best accuracy.  This guy https://www.facebook.com/Cylinderhone-756429174391912/  is great.  Your cylinder has already been modified, might as well finish it right.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2020, 07:38:56 PM »
History Lesson:  The undersize chamber mouths were a deliberate design feature, to ensure enough chamber pressure to get a good burn going on the Cordite propellant used in the 1st Generation smokeless .455 cartridges.  Later nitrocelluse flake proprellants would not need this, but again, the Brits never bothered to change.  It still worked, and you never knew when an old batch of cordite might come thru the supply system.
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Offline Whiskey Double

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2020, 07:45:32 PM »
Thanks Drydock

I'm not going to cast my own bullets, no desire to. I'm trying to use what Brownells has because of me cost with them as an RSO @ their range.   I have tons of ACP brass, but if 45 auto rim works better......do you use moon clips with your 45auto rim? 1cc of Trail Boss = how many grains?
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2020, 07:57:22 PM »
When have used my Webley in Zoot I load in .45 acp brass with RIMZ full moon clips, works great.  I usually just load cast 230 LRNs for most shooting if I'm not worrying about duplicating factory ballistics.  For the 230 grain loads I like 4.0 grains of Red Dot.  All in the same dies as above, just a different shell plate.

Moon clips will not work with Auto Rim Brass.

1cc of TB is 4.5 grains.

If you're going to buy bullets, then I cannot recommend the cylinder hone enough.  You will get better performance, less leading, less concern for bullet hardness.
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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #5 on: Today at 07:57:09 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2020, 08:12:47 PM »
Had to get my MK V out and fondle it.   Perhaps my favorite DA revolver.
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Offline Whiskey Double

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2020, 08:18:33 PM »
I don't Facebook so I'm not sure how to look it up, did you have it done or did you do it yourself.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2020, 08:26:41 PM »
I sent it off to Doug Phillips.  You can contact him thru the Cast Boolits forum if you don't facebook.  But any good smith should be able to do it.  Surely someone at Brownells knows someone?
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Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2020, 09:13:39 PM »
Lately I have been loading some .455 MK IV to see if they would shoot in an SAA Colt.  they do!!
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Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2020, 09:29:53 PM »
 I?ve used solid 200 gr .454 rnfp in my 45 lc and 45ar loads in my altered martial .455 revolvers forever. A few years ago I bought a 265 gr .455 pointy hollow base mould to cast bullets for my unaltered .455s. A little harder mould to work with but it makes purdy bullets that look correct with a correct Webley. Great guns.
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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #10 on: Today at 07:57:09 PM »

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2020, 01:07:10 AM »
Yes: to clarify, .45 Auto Rim brass is made with a very thick rim which has the same effective thickness as the .45ACP brass in a moon clip - i.e. designed to be used "loose" in a revolver manufactured (or "shaved") for use with .45ACP and moon clips.

Using .45AR brass permits the revolver to be "properly" loaded with individual rounds, and is the only way to get the incredibly satisfying "flock extraction" of a break-top Webley revolver ...  ;D ...



All of my various .455 revolvers are in original configuration, so I wouldn't dream of honing out the chamber mouths ... rather, I use the 265gr hollow base bullets of original shape that those tight throats were designed for ....

I would strongly recommend using .455 Webley dies to reload your brass, because after your brass (either .45ACP or .45AR) has been fired once in your Webley chamber, it will be fireformed to the more generous diameters of the Webley cartridge/chamber.  .455 dies will only size the brass back down to .455 specs ... .45 Colt and.45ACPdies will size it down to the slightly smaller diameters of those cartridges with every loading, but it will blow back out to the more generous Webley diameters with each firing, so you'll "overwork" your brass over time ...



Chuck will be better able to address this:  I don't know how GAF rules would treat the use of moon clips in actual competition with a Webley revolver ... at least in main-match events ... because they are certainly not "period correct" for a Webley and would in fact give an unfair (in my mind, at any rate) speed advantage over a similar revolver being loaded with loose cartridges.  As I recall, such "loading aids" are not permitted ... except perhaps in "Era of Expansion" side matches, where I have been permittted to use my period-correct Prideaux Loaders ...



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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2020, 02:54:55 AM »
My Good Whiskey -

since you are using .45 ACp or .45 Auto Rim, there is no need to limit yourself with Trailboss. It is a fluffy powder
that was designed to nearly fill .45 Colt cases. I also find it has somewhat higher initial  pressure than other powders like Unique,
making it actually harder on older guns, and is not as consistant , at least for me.

The smaller ACP or AutoRim cases will certainly prefer ( in my opinion) one of the old lower pressure standbys like Unique.

just my opinion, and it is worth what you paid for it.

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Offline Drydock

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2020, 03:44:19 AM »
The use of revolver loading aids is prohibited in the Victorian Main match, but allowed in Expansion Era.  Another reason I like to use AR brass.
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Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2020, 07:29:37 AM »
I am confused why do you not use .455 Webley Brass?
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Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK V
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2020, 07:44:24 AM »
Shaved cylinder revolvers will not work with 455 as the brass has too thin of a rim. You have to use 45automatic in moon clips or 45 autorim to fill the space that was removed from the machining of the cylinder. A less destructive way of altering these 455 martial guns [if the cylinder is long enough] is to rebate the chambers for 45 lc which allows a 45lc case to chamber with about half of its rim thickness below the cylinder face. As you have not altered the cylinder face you can still use 455 because the 455 has a larger diameter case rim that then headspaces on the unaltered part of the cylinder and they will chamber and fire. The newish .45 Cowboy brass would work good too and look more correct than lc. Heres a rebated cylinder on my 455 smith.
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Offline Galen

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2020, 08:06:33 AM »
partsforantiqueguns.com makes a cylinder plate for the .455 Webley cylinder, this plate allows you to fire .455 ammunition. Cost is $58.00 worth looking into. perhaps one of you firearm mechanics could come up with a permanent fix using one of these plates on a converted revolver.

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2020, 08:38:34 AM »
I also found this guy [too pricey] but 45 autorim is the best for these buggered up guns for range plinking while the moonclip is the way to use these guns in competition. I hunted and hunted and finally found a pair of uncut .455 cylinders years ago, one came from Apex and the other from South Africa. The blued? one fit, locks up and matched perfectly in my Mk IV. The other locks up perfectly in my W-W but the diameter is too small and the front cylinder stop won?t engage plus its a dull park finish not blued. In posting this I thought that I would try the parked .455 cylinder in my MkVI. I don?t know if I?ve ever tried it before. The MkVI?s shaved cylinder is so sloppy at full cock that the hammer hits the edge of the primer which is not good. I had stopped trying to shoot it because of this. I believe that the Webley cylinder notches wear out not the super hard pawl. Anyway lo and behold it fits and I have a pretty nice lockup, it?s not as tight as the WW was but is pretty tight. And the finishes match. I was planning on taking this cylinder to the Baltimore Antique Military show to sell but now I don?t think I will. Now I need to lighten the mainspring and get better grips as the ones on the gun have a slight warp and feel too thin for me.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2020, 05:13:41 PM »
There are speedloaders for Auto Rim as well, makes a nice faux Prideaux. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1015130497  I've come to prefer these really, it seems more historical than using full moons, at least for the Webley.
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Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 05:41:01 PM »
I?ve got a few of those, they work but not as slick as dropping in a full moon clip.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Shaved .455 Webley MK VI
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 05:54:52 PM »
Really,  nothing slicker than this:   
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