Author Topic: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque  (Read 362 times)

Offline JustinGr

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Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« on: January 19, 2020, 08:31:24 am »
I am building a 1873 and the barrel is an octagon that is going on a receiver that originally had a round barrel. The barrel, when tightened by clamping the barrel and using bare hands on the receiver, will be 1/2 a flat or 1/16 of a revolution, from indexing. I am wondering if putting the action wrench and torquing would be sufficient or do I need to remove material from the shoulder? I can not find any data online that talks about the torque needed and the amount of crush or stretch of the threads is normal. Put another way, were these torqued to a certain number or just hand tight back in the day? 


I know head space will need to accounted for, but I want to first check it with the barrel properly aligned and torqued before I calculate how much I need to machine on it, if any.

Thank you

Justin

Offline August

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2020, 09:57:30 am »
Wow, what a great question -- the answer to which is probably lost to antiquity.

I worked with my gunsmith to remove the barrel from one of my Uberti rifles in order to ream the chamber (38-40 don't ya' know).  When we put it back together, he used the action wrench and put some omph on it at the end to get it indexed.  He certainly didn't use a torque wrench.  But, of course, that was a barrel already fitted to that receiver.

How much "torque" does it take to index the original, round barrel to the receiver?

Offline JustinGr

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2020, 10:42:57 am »
I wish I had the round barrel to know. I got this basket case because the previous owner twisted the receiver when removing the receiver, so I bought everything minus the receiver, and found a receiver of the exact same year, just a few hundred numbers higher, that was missing everything else. It had a round barrel because you can see the ghost line from where it used to sit.

So I am building me a Frankenstein, if you will.

If one were to go by the TPI as an indicator, the torque is in the #100# range ( going off memory), but a search online shows some use hand tight, others 50#, and some 150#.

I know I can put on an action wrench with an extension arm and get this to align, but want to be cautious and not damage it, but the same time, If I take .001 off the shoulder and it indexes hand tight, but needs torqued, I will over clock it and be back to where I started, or worse.

So, I?m kind of stuck making a decision I guess.

Offline Montana Slim

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2020, 03:09:08 pm »
Interesting question. Would be a neat trick to look through the original Winchester assembly drawings.

But, since I don't have that, I'll share my thoughts instead.  :D

50 ftlb sounds like a safe starting guess. I would first clean the threads and apply a dab of anti-seize. Then assemble and torque to 50 ftlb. Then check the alignment. Continue to tighten to index, providing the toque doesn't exceed 80 ftlb. If it doesn't index properly, disassemble, take a bit off the shoulder & repeat the process. You can also use a pattern of torquing the barrel & loosening  - you can do this procedure several times before the final adjustment is made. This helps to seat the threads. Using a bit of lube, as I suggest also results in a slightly higher torque than your wrench will show, but I believe it will be safe & removable, if that should be needed.

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Offline JustinGr

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2020, 04:46:59 pm »
Thank you. That is how I will proceed. It will be epic, either way!

Offline SamHamburger

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2020, 03:30:03 pm »
Maximum torque sheets are available on line.  I would use specs for grade 2 bolts.  Some manufacturers recommended to hand tighten the barrel ( no wrench ) thirty to forty-five degrees before top dead center.

You might consider using blue loctite.  Red is too strong.  Some manufacturers tightened or loosened the barrel
to adjust for windage.


Offline JustinGr

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 07:35:15 am »
It is unlikely I will use any adhesive. Plus, the magazine tube is also affixed and would prohibit much, if any, rotation.

I am unsure what 'Nickel Steel" equates to in terms of strength. Grade 2 is low to medium carbon steel, I am not sure what percentage of Ni was added to the Nickel Steel barrels at Winchester, so no way to determine what "grade" it would be associated with, but 50-80# is in the zone that even a Grade 2 low carbon bolt will hold.


Offline JustinGr

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 07:44:03 am »
Well, you win some and lose some...

I chucked the octagon barrel in a vice with wood shims, and bought an action wrench and low and behold, without serious effort, the barrel aligned. That's a WIN!

Then the loss! When I went to remove the receiver, the wood splintered and the barrel spun a little putting two 1/16 inch long kicks about 1/2 inch apart on the sharp point of two flats intersecting on the barrel. Not devastating, but now someone thing else to deal with. Need to find a better barrel clamp for the octagon barrel before proceeding.

I initially tried thicker wood, but it was all to soft, and the barrel either dug into it and or dug into it an spun in the wood no matter how hard I clamped the vice. I did not have any "hardwood" so that too may have contributed, but I ended up using 1/4" thick pine shims because it seemed to hold on the torque, but not the reverse.. Always something..

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2020, 05:05:26 am »
 FWIW a few years ago I removed the barrel from my old '73 Winchester in order to send it off to be lined. I found an oak 1x2 board fit the carrier mortise PERFECTLY and no action wrench was needed for removing or re-installing the barrel.
 
 

Offline JustinGr

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Re: Original Winchester 1873 (made in 1893) Barrel Torque
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2020, 07:32:43 pm »
Wow. That?s a neat trick. My eagerness overwhelmed my sense of reason.


Thank you!


 

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